<!--quoteo(post=2021194:date=Nov 12 2012, 04:08 PM:name=Sagan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sagan @ Nov 12 2012, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your entire point rests on the supposition that good skulks are penalized... the thing is, we disagree on what a good skulk is, IMO a good skulk has nothing to do with K:D ratio... a good skulk is a good harasser, and a good ambusher. Frankly good skulks almost always stay alive longer... because that's what good skulks do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:|
That's just wrong when you're playing at similar skill levels. Sure, in pubs a good skulk will stay alive longer because they're far better than most of the other team. When average pub skulks are playing average pub marines, the marines will always come out on top. When top of the line skulks are fighting the best marines, the marines always come out on top by a big margin (2-1 or 3-1 KDR is not uncommon until lifeforms come out).
<!--quoteo(post=2021194:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:08 PM:name=Sagan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sagan @ Nov 12 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your entire point rests on the supposition that good skulks are penalized... the thing is, we disagree on what a good skulk is, IMO a good skulk has nothing to do with K:D ratio... a good skulk is a good harasser, and a good ambusher. Frankly good skulks almost always stay alive longer... because that's what good skulks do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A good skulk is a skulk that can dominate the map, control areas, save res and get many frags to deny the marines a chance to advance quickly while his team techs. To do this, good skulks die more frequently but get more frags. However, they have the biggest impact on the game because the aliens are faster than marines - their advantage is speed.
If you have a different definition of a good skulk to the above then you don't have the skill to dominate a map. For players who do not have the skill to dominate, doing exactly what you said is the correct way to play until you acquire the skills to dominate.
That's just wrong when you're playing at similar skill levels. Sure, in pubs a good skulk will stay alive longer because they're far better than most of the other team. When average pub skulks are playing average pub marines, the marines will always come out on top. When top of the line skulks are fighting the best marines, the marines always come out on top by a big margin (2-1 or 3-1 KDR is not uncommon until lifeforms come out).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay... I will grant you this point.
However, the use of fact of early game KDR to advocate for a Revamped resource system based on RFK or the demise of RFD is also wrong headed, and short sighted... Strayan said something about using an "anvil to kill a fly" the other day... and that seems appropriate for this as well.
If ya think about it, the KDR rate between the sides and the different times of the game is completely irrelevant really... or are you advocating that Devs should design and balance based on KdR being equal at all times during the game with equal skill on opposing sides. If that ever happens then the nerf hammer that would come down would raise such a hue and cry amongst the player base.
That's just wrong when you're playing at similar skill levels. Sure, in pubs a good skulk will stay alive longer because they're far better than most of the other team. When average pub skulks are playing average pub marines, the marines will always come out on top. When top of the line skulks are fighting the best marines, the marines always come out on top by a big margin (2-1 or 3-1 KDR is not uncommon until lifeforms come out).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so we're trying to help the Aliens team out with RFK yet everyone agrees the Marines get better K/D/R. So the solution is to only implement RFK for one team or specific life forms, so some combination thereof.
Sounds like no one agrees because everyone knows it's a terrible idea no matter which way you slice it, everyone just has a theory on what would help them kill the other team in a more embarrassing stomp. At least it seems both teams see the inherent disadvantages of RFK, hence why they are highly partisan on which team deserves that massive bonus. This will result in good players, or should I say exceptional players, decimating the entire other team by their lonesome. That's what already happens now, <i>without any RFK system in place</i>. This is because Marines have enough P.Res to buy a shotgun, which in the hands of a skilled player is a guaranteed win. If a player is good enough to get benefit from RFK, they're already good enough to max out their P.Res just through not dying. More P.Res doesn't help <i>even in the slightest</i> if you don't die (I.E. Good), and are inherently bottle-necked by the commander as to what you can spend it on. (Which they are.) Any other implementation will just sound, feel, and play like a Combat map without the personal choice of what you can buy without research. Hooray! Now we have a game that most classic NS players <i>despise</i> only we found a way to actually make it <i>worse</i>!
The same argument can be used on the Aliens team as well, only now you've doing away with any real research requirements for life forms and are only gimped by what abilities you have. In a way, it's actually more limited for Aliens since shotgun is about as low as you can go on the upgrades tree, especially considering the upper limit on performance from it. There is no situation where RFK helps a player that isn't amazing, and it actually discourages players from taking risk. Especially versus a better player. So now it's punish the worse team <i>even more</i> than the current curb-stomp methodology.
While we're at it, lets make new players rage quit in minutes. On one hand, the commander will be yelling at his skulks to go attack such-and-such location, on the other he'll berate crappy players for dying a lot while doing it. Wow, that sounds like <i>so much fun</i> for a new player.
<!--quoteo(post=2021249:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:38 AM:name=Sagan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sagan @ Nov 13 2012, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If ya think about it, the KDR rate between the sides and the different times of the game is completely irrelevant really...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did i miss something? I don't think anyone was drawing a link to kdr.
The gist of the arguement explained in very simple terms is 1) RFD delays lifeform timings, RFK accelerates lifeform timings 2) NS2 pres lifeform timings are too slow. *edit* which is partly why alien strategy revolves so heavily around tres lifeforms (which have much earlier timings) 3) Apply relevant mechanic.
What most people are suggesting RFK for is to seperate lifeform timings. However the larger issue here is RFD, and how it impacts aliens greatly, and why it needs to be removed.
Skulk/Marine balance is a seperate issue, and there is a number of small tweaks that can be made quite easily that would help, and some pretty major improvements that are needed for the last part of that balance.
In the end, having a completely ###### attitude about RFK does nothing to validate your argument, especially when you keep pointing out the same singular flaw in RFK that is quite well known at this point. However since there hasnt been a single other alternative presented, people seem quite happy to post all kinds of negative responses about RFK and new players, while ignoring the real problem which is RFD.
I'm not convinced that RFK needs to be added, but I'm also less convinced by the criticisms of it in this thread. More than anything, I want to see RFD removed. If it needs to be replaced, I'm open to RFK replacing it, but the removal of RFD could be enough to speed up alien timings.
One of the primary reasons that RFD (the no-res-while-dead) mechanic was implemented earlier this year was to stop lifefrom explosions. A lot of people here are suggesting things along the lines of toning down the pres gain from harvesters while also adding RFK. I don't think you could just add RFK on top of current pres gain as lifeforms would come out very fast with the additional removal of RFD.
So the options presented are: 1) RFD - keep the current system which overly punishes early game aliens resulting in lifeforms coming out so late as to be already countered and usually ineffective when they do arrive. 2) Remove RFD - Removing the no-res-while-dead system in the hope that it wouldn't lead to tech explosions or that tech explosions would be less powerful because aliens are forced into more gorges/lerks than they were months ago 3) Remove RFD, add RFK - Like option 2, but also adds pres gains (probably +1 per kill) via killing. This has the benefit of allowing come-from-behind wins for teams that cannot hold RTS... but also the general disadvantage of adding another potential snowball mechanic. 4) Remove RFD, add RFK, reduce pres gain from RTS - Like option 3, but slower pres gain to tweak (slow) lifeform timings
<!--quoteo(post=2021299:date=Nov 12 2012, 04:25 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 12 2012, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What most people are suggesting RFK for is to seperate lifeform timings. However the larger issue here is RFD, and how it impacts aliens greatly, and why it needs to be removed.
Skulk/Marine balance is a seperate issue, and there is a number of small tweaks that can be made quite easily that would help, and some pretty major improvements that are needed for the last part of that balance.
In the end, having a completely ###### attitude about RFK does nothing to validate your argument, especially when you keep pointing out the same singular flaw in RFK that is quite well known at this point. However since there hasnt been a single other alternative presented, people seem quite happy to post all kinds of negative responses about RFK and new players, while ignoring the real problem which is RFD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the RFD issue isn't really that legitimate either, if anything Marines spend just as much time dead as the aliens. Marines are actually the insane suicidal Rambo's most of the time, and are more disposable than a Kharaan Citizen of the Hive. If you get face rolled as a skulk, perhaps it's time you graduated to the Gorge for 10 P.Res and stop trying to eat faces. It's just as legitimate of a character class, and skulk will <i>never</i> be for everyone. It can't be as effective as it is now, <i>and</i> significantly easier to play. Marines wouldn't have a chance.
And yes, I base my opinions on Pub server play. Competitive is a completely different animal, and I wish people would stop comparing the two. Because no, a 12 person team is not the same as a 6 person team, and no combination of skill or upgrades in the current game will make them the same beast.
Improving the balance in competitive play will help public play, they are one in the same in that aspect. Now there are changes you can make the affect one or the other more, but in the end a balanced game is balanced at all levels. Now in terms of player counts that is where it gets infinitely more difficult, as NS's model of gameplay doesnt scale well inherently, with marines becoming more and more powerful with each additional player.
<!--quoteo(post=2021194:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Sagan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sagan @ Nov 12 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its a huge assumption on your part that the 50/50 split of pub wins is because of early lifeform drops from TRES<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough - pub winrates are simply by the way discrete&binary choice works: Either A or B. Since both sides are in a vast majority of cases, incompetent or often not even connected for large parts of the game, all it tells you is that probability is indeed probability. Odds are good that even if you gave the rifle homing bullets or doubled Onos HP, results would be exactly the ###### same.
One of the prime signs that you're a very bad dev is when post-launch turns into a ######fest and you get defensive about it and post an aggregate-of-everything stat. Diablo 3 did this, SoE is infamous for it. It's just not a good way of determining anything other than whether your stat-parsing works.
It's actually kind of sad that balance was pretty decent numerous builds before, and somewhere along the line tres eggs and other problems started to arise at random... and the game was moving forward in balance and took 15 steps back. What's up with that?
I find it amusing that we are talking about RFK while there are 4 min onos in the game... adding RFK at the moment would honestly create more imbalance, but if added properly it could be good. First a lot of things need to be fixed....
Fix how fast lifeforms hit the field to be in semi-staggered arrangement from the marines. It's okay for the game to go into alien favor once fades are on the field, just don't let the tech explosion happen? Easy way to fix that is to create PRES sinks early game... and we all already know how to do that.
Fix the whole onos thing... and then you have a game where RFK and other stuff wouldn't even be discussed. Balance isn't that far off... its just the tech explosion and onos hitting the field in 4 mins... 2 things that CAN be fixed if realistic changes are made. If they continue to be ignored then enjoy having the forums flooded with whine threads until the end of time.
Also, jetpacks are still terrible and need more fuel... just saying.
Also, don't ruin aliens classes by nerfing the hell out of them to adjust for bad game design (Tech explosion). If the tech explosion is the problem, then please don't destroy the fades purpose in the game. Fix the bigger issue and give people what they want. I don't see the fun in getting steam rolled when playing as a skulk until the team can pathetically save up enough res for an imbalanced onos. Then I go fade and get killed in an instant by 2 marine who had random luck shotgun blasts due to the shotgun being a rifle and fade being pathetically underpowered in crowds. Isn't the fade supposed to be crowd control?
I'm more scared of a lerk than a fade at the moment.
Comments
:|
That's just wrong when you're playing at similar skill levels. Sure, in pubs a good skulk will stay alive longer because they're far better than most of the other team. When average pub skulks are playing average pub marines, the marines will always come out on top. When top of the line skulks are fighting the best marines, the marines always come out on top by a big margin (2-1 or 3-1 KDR is not uncommon until lifeforms come out).
A good skulk is a skulk that can dominate the map, control areas, save res and get many frags to deny the marines a chance to advance quickly while his team techs. To do this, good skulks die more frequently but get more frags. However, they have the biggest impact on the game because the aliens are faster than marines - their advantage is speed.
If you have a different definition of a good skulk to the above then you don't have the skill to dominate a map. For players who do not have the skill to dominate, doing exactly what you said is the correct way to play until you acquire the skills to dominate.
That's just wrong when you're playing at similar skill levels. Sure, in pubs a good skulk will stay alive longer because they're far better than most of the other team. When average pub skulks are playing average pub marines, the marines will always come out on top. When top of the line skulks are fighting the best marines, the marines always come out on top by a big margin (2-1 or 3-1 KDR is not uncommon until lifeforms come out).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay... I will grant you this point.
However, the use of fact of early game KDR to advocate for a Revamped resource system based on RFK or the demise of RFD is also wrong headed, and short sighted... Strayan said something about using an "anvil to kill a fly" the other day... and that seems appropriate for this as well.
If ya think about it, the KDR rate between the sides and the different times of the game is completely irrelevant really... or are you advocating that Devs should design and balance based on KdR being equal at all times during the game with equal skill on opposing sides. If that ever happens then the nerf hammer that would come down would raise such a hue and cry amongst the player base.
That's just wrong when you're playing at similar skill levels. Sure, in pubs a good skulk will stay alive longer because they're far better than most of the other team. When average pub skulks are playing average pub marines, the marines will always come out on top. When top of the line skulks are fighting the best marines, the marines always come out on top by a big margin (2-1 or 3-1 KDR is not uncommon until lifeforms come out).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so we're trying to help the Aliens team out with RFK yet everyone agrees the Marines get better K/D/R. So the solution is to only implement RFK for one team or specific life forms, so some combination thereof.
Sounds like no one agrees because everyone knows it's a terrible idea no matter which way you slice it, everyone just has a theory on what would help them kill the other team in a more embarrassing stomp. At least it seems both teams see the inherent disadvantages of RFK, hence why they are highly partisan on which team deserves that massive bonus. This will result in good players, or should I say exceptional players, decimating the entire other team by their lonesome. That's what already happens now, <i>without any RFK system in place</i>. This is because Marines have enough P.Res to buy a shotgun, which in the hands of a skilled player is a guaranteed win. If a player is good enough to get benefit from RFK, they're already good enough to max out their P.Res just through not dying. More P.Res doesn't help <i>even in the slightest</i> if you don't die (I.E. Good), and are inherently bottle-necked by the commander as to what you can spend it on. (Which they are.) Any other implementation will just sound, feel, and play like a Combat map without the personal choice of what you can buy without research. Hooray! Now we have a game that most classic NS players <i>despise</i> only we found a way to actually make it <i>worse</i>!
The same argument can be used on the Aliens team as well, only now you've doing away with any real research requirements for life forms and are only gimped by what abilities you have. In a way, it's actually more limited for Aliens since shotgun is about as low as you can go on the upgrades tree, especially considering the upper limit on performance from it. There is no situation where RFK helps a player that isn't amazing, and it actually discourages players from taking risk. Especially versus a better player. So now it's punish the worse team <i>even more</i> than the current curb-stomp methodology.
While we're at it, lets make new players rage quit in minutes. On one hand, the commander will be yelling at his skulks to go attack such-and-such location, on the other he'll berate crappy players for dying a lot while doing it. Wow, that sounds like <i>so much fun</i> for a new player.
Sounds legit, lets implement!
Did i miss something? I don't think anyone was drawing a link to kdr.
The gist of the arguement explained in very simple terms is
1) RFD delays lifeform timings, RFK accelerates lifeform timings
2) NS2 pres lifeform timings are too slow. *edit* which is partly why alien strategy revolves so heavily around tres lifeforms (which have much earlier timings)
3) Apply relevant mechanic.
Skulk/Marine balance is a seperate issue, and there is a number of small tweaks that can be made quite easily that would help, and some pretty major improvements that are needed for the last part of that balance.
In the end, having a completely ###### attitude about RFK does nothing to validate your argument, especially when you keep pointing out the same singular flaw in RFK that is quite well known at this point. However since there hasnt been a single other alternative presented, people seem quite happy to post all kinds of negative responses about RFK and new players, while ignoring the real problem which is RFD.
One of the primary reasons that RFD (the no-res-while-dead) mechanic was implemented earlier this year was to stop lifefrom explosions. A lot of people here are suggesting things along the lines of toning down the pres gain from harvesters while also adding RFK. I don't think you could just add RFK on top of current pres gain as lifeforms would come out very fast with the additional removal of RFD.
So the options presented are:
1) RFD - keep the current system which overly punishes early game aliens resulting in lifeforms coming out so late as to be already countered and usually ineffective when they do arrive.
2) Remove RFD - Removing the no-res-while-dead system in the hope that it wouldn't lead to tech explosions or that tech explosions would be less powerful because aliens are forced into more gorges/lerks than they were months ago
3) Remove RFD, add RFK - Like option 2, but also adds pres gains (probably +1 per kill) via killing. This has the benefit of allowing come-from-behind wins for teams that cannot hold RTS... but also the general disadvantage of adding another potential snowball mechanic.
4) Remove RFD, add RFK, reduce pres gain from RTS - Like option 3, but slower pres gain to tweak (slow) lifeform timings
Skulk/Marine balance is a seperate issue, and there is a number of small tweaks that can be made quite easily that would help, and some pretty major improvements that are needed for the last part of that balance.
In the end, having a completely ###### attitude about RFK does nothing to validate your argument, especially when you keep pointing out the same singular flaw in RFK that is quite well known at this point. However since there hasnt been a single other alternative presented, people seem quite happy to post all kinds of negative responses about RFK and new players, while ignoring the real problem which is RFD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the RFD issue isn't really that legitimate either, if anything Marines spend just as much time dead as the aliens. Marines are actually the insane suicidal Rambo's most of the time, and are more disposable than a Kharaan Citizen of the Hive. If you get face rolled as a skulk, perhaps it's time you graduated to the Gorge for 10 P.Res and stop trying to eat faces. It's just as legitimate of a character class, and skulk will <i>never</i> be for everyone. It can't be as effective as it is now, <i>and</i> significantly easier to play. Marines wouldn't have a chance.
And yes, I base my opinions on Pub server play. Competitive is a completely different animal, and I wish people would stop comparing the two. Because no, a 12 person team is not the same as a 6 person team, and no combination of skill or upgrades in the current game will make them the same beast.
True enough - pub winrates are simply by the way discrete&binary choice works: Either A or B. Since both sides are in a vast majority of cases, incompetent or often not even connected for large parts of the game, all it tells you is that probability is indeed probability. Odds are good that even if you gave the rifle homing bullets or doubled Onos HP, results would be exactly the ###### same.
One of the prime signs that you're a very bad dev is when post-launch turns into a ######fest and you get defensive about it and post an aggregate-of-everything stat. Diablo 3 did this, SoE is infamous for it. It's just not a good way of determining anything other than whether your stat-parsing works.
I find it amusing that we are talking about RFK while there are 4 min onos in the game... adding RFK at the moment would honestly create more imbalance, but if added properly it could be good. First a lot of things need to be fixed....
Fix how fast lifeforms hit the field to be in semi-staggered arrangement from the marines. It's okay for the game to go into alien favor once fades are on the field, just don't let the tech explosion happen? Easy way to fix that is to create PRES sinks early game... and we all already know how to do that.
Fix the whole onos thing... and then you have a game where RFK and other stuff wouldn't even be discussed. Balance isn't that far off... its just the tech explosion and onos hitting the field in 4 mins... 2 things that CAN be fixed if realistic changes are made. If they continue to be ignored then enjoy having the forums flooded with whine threads until the end of time.
Also, jetpacks are still terrible and need more fuel... just saying.
Also, don't ruin aliens classes by nerfing the hell out of them to adjust for bad game design (Tech explosion). If the tech explosion is the problem, then please don't destroy the fades purpose in the game. Fix the bigger issue and give people what they want. I don't see the fun in getting steam rolled when playing as a skulk until the team can pathetically save up enough res for an imbalanced onos. Then I go fade and get killed in an instant by 2 marine who had random luck shotgun blasts due to the shotgun being a rifle and fade being pathetically underpowered in crowds. Isn't the fade supposed to be crowd control?
I'm more scared of a lerk than a fade at the moment.