A Simple Approach to Balance
biggians
Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168454Members
Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168454Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Addressing Shotguns, 5-minute Onos, Turtle Marines, And More.</div>Basically it's becoming rather obvious at this point that there are some glaring balance issues between the Aliens and the Marines. People are throwing around all these complex ideas and total game reworks, and that's cool, they're entitled to be able to voice there opinion, however I feel the best solution is ultimately the simplest, with as few new features as possible.
<u><b>Marine Changes</b></u>
<u>Commander</u>
+The commander can spawn Dual exosuits
Reason: The alien commander doesn't spawn a weak version of the Onos, why should the Marine commander be any different. (I didn't play in beta, so if this was available in beta, please explain why it was removed)
<u>Weapons</u>
-Shotgun Damage reduced to 110/130/150/170, where each number is divided based on the upgrade currently teched (no tech/W1/W2/W3)
Reason: The shotgun tears through things right now, dealing tons of damage and destroying any reason that the Aliens have to play anything that isn't a skulk or an Onos. Perhaps the numbers shouldn't be hit so hard first, but if you think about it, with W1 you will almost kill a fade with 2 perfect hits, that's still pretty strong.
+Enemies ignited by the flamethrower cannot be healed until they are no longer on fire.
Reason: It's a counter to the Onos/Gorge coming in and rolling through platoons of marines, it gives the Flamethrower a little more utility, and it makes sense when you think about it, since the Flamethrower burns lurk gas, it should also burn healing gas.
<u><b>Khara Changes</b></u>
<u>Commander</u>
-Onos eggs can no longer be spawned until the Aliens control 2 or more Hives and have teched Onos at some kind of structure OR Alien Commander cannot drop Onos egg until someone on the Alien team has purchased one themselves.
Reason: Balances the time that Onos can hit the field with the time Marine Jetpacks/Exos hit the field, solves the 4-6 minute Onos problem.
<u>Evolutions and Traits</u>
+Fade cost reduced from 50 pres/tres to 40.
Reason: Makes the Fade a little more desirable rather than just saving up the extra 25 to get an Onos. In addition to the shotgun nerf, this will help the alien's mid game out substantially.
+The Gorge's Bile Bomb will now affect dropped Marine weapons, causing them to disappear much faster, say in roughly 10 seconds.
Reason: Helps deal with the Marines being able to recycle their weapons with ease, increases the risk of pushing into enemy territory alone, makes the gorge a more desirable unit to play, increases the Aliens' ability to work together, and helps dealing with turtle marines. Note that this should be something that should need to be researched in addition to bile bomb, come up with a fancy name for it that implies the acid becomes more corrosive. Possibly make it visually different so marines can become aware.
+Hydra attack speed slightly increased (maybe 25%?).
Reason: Compare the Hydra to the Sentry gun. When have you ever died from a Hydra when paying attention? Never. It's not really a threat, it just kinda slows you down and makes moving somewhere a little annoying until you corner snipe it. Heck, I've stood in 3 Hydras hitting me and killed 2 before I had to retreat. They need some love.
-Onos armor with Carapace evolution reduced from 1000 to 800.
Reason: Onos are very hard to kill as they stand, and with the Nerf to the shotguns, one of the silliest ways of dealing with them (kiting with jetpack and massive shotgun damage) will take more time. There needs to be some risk with the Onos, charging into a Marine base, killing 3 guys and having enough health to run away promotes solo play and lacks any kind of strategic element.
<u>Spawn Location</u>
+The Alien spawn location will start with "no power", in other words the Emergency lights will be on.
Reason: It's pretty obvious really, not sure why this isn't the case to begin with.
<u><b>In Conclusion</b></u>
These ideas are ultimately my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with them. If you can come up with a logical reason as to why you disagree with some of my thoughts, please post it. I'm certainly not above changing my opinion and agreeing with something that someone else points out. Please do keep in mind though, that I am attempting to come up with a way to balance the game with <i>as few new features as possible</i>. Thanks, and please share your thoughts.
<u><b>Marine Changes</b></u>
<u>Commander</u>
+The commander can spawn Dual exosuits
Reason: The alien commander doesn't spawn a weak version of the Onos, why should the Marine commander be any different. (I didn't play in beta, so if this was available in beta, please explain why it was removed)
<u>Weapons</u>
-Shotgun Damage reduced to 110/130/150/170, where each number is divided based on the upgrade currently teched (no tech/W1/W2/W3)
Reason: The shotgun tears through things right now, dealing tons of damage and destroying any reason that the Aliens have to play anything that isn't a skulk or an Onos. Perhaps the numbers shouldn't be hit so hard first, but if you think about it, with W1 you will almost kill a fade with 2 perfect hits, that's still pretty strong.
+Enemies ignited by the flamethrower cannot be healed until they are no longer on fire.
Reason: It's a counter to the Onos/Gorge coming in and rolling through platoons of marines, it gives the Flamethrower a little more utility, and it makes sense when you think about it, since the Flamethrower burns lurk gas, it should also burn healing gas.
<u><b>Khara Changes</b></u>
<u>Commander</u>
-Onos eggs can no longer be spawned until the Aliens control 2 or more Hives and have teched Onos at some kind of structure OR Alien Commander cannot drop Onos egg until someone on the Alien team has purchased one themselves.
Reason: Balances the time that Onos can hit the field with the time Marine Jetpacks/Exos hit the field, solves the 4-6 minute Onos problem.
<u>Evolutions and Traits</u>
+Fade cost reduced from 50 pres/tres to 40.
Reason: Makes the Fade a little more desirable rather than just saving up the extra 25 to get an Onos. In addition to the shotgun nerf, this will help the alien's mid game out substantially.
+The Gorge's Bile Bomb will now affect dropped Marine weapons, causing them to disappear much faster, say in roughly 10 seconds.
Reason: Helps deal with the Marines being able to recycle their weapons with ease, increases the risk of pushing into enemy territory alone, makes the gorge a more desirable unit to play, increases the Aliens' ability to work together, and helps dealing with turtle marines. Note that this should be something that should need to be researched in addition to bile bomb, come up with a fancy name for it that implies the acid becomes more corrosive. Possibly make it visually different so marines can become aware.
+Hydra attack speed slightly increased (maybe 25%?).
Reason: Compare the Hydra to the Sentry gun. When have you ever died from a Hydra when paying attention? Never. It's not really a threat, it just kinda slows you down and makes moving somewhere a little annoying until you corner snipe it. Heck, I've stood in 3 Hydras hitting me and killed 2 before I had to retreat. They need some love.
-Onos armor with Carapace evolution reduced from 1000 to 800.
Reason: Onos are very hard to kill as they stand, and with the Nerf to the shotguns, one of the silliest ways of dealing with them (kiting with jetpack and massive shotgun damage) will take more time. There needs to be some risk with the Onos, charging into a Marine base, killing 3 guys and having enough health to run away promotes solo play and lacks any kind of strategic element.
<u>Spawn Location</u>
+The Alien spawn location will start with "no power", in other words the Emergency lights will be on.
Reason: It's pretty obvious really, not sure why this isn't the case to begin with.
<u><b>In Conclusion</b></u>
These ideas are ultimately my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with them. If you can come up with a logical reason as to why you disagree with some of my thoughts, please post it. I'm certainly not above changing my opinion and agreeing with something that someone else points out. Please do keep in mind though, that I am attempting to come up with a way to balance the game with <i>as few new features as possible</i>. Thanks, and please share your thoughts.
Comments
Ignite doesn't last that long though, that's the problem. If it lasted longer i'd be in favor of this (in TF2 it lasts like 15 seconds), but I think it only lasts like 5 seconds. Idk, I never see people use the Flamethrower because of how much better the shotgun is at the moment.
*11 paragraphs of changes*
Come on, you gotta admit, that's kinda funny.....
*11 paragraphs of changes*
Come on, you gotta admit, that's kinda funny.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahah, when I said simple I meant along the lines of no major changes like some of the threads that people have made, like hive maturity, things evolving, making fades jump through walls, etc. When I said simple, I meant that most of my changes are simply number changes (shotty dealing less damage, Onos with less armor, etc). The only things I would consider not simple are the new way bile bomb would work on weapons and the new effect the flamethrower would have. Also, technically you don't have to read all of the reasons why I suggest these changes, which would shorten it to like 11 sentences :P
I also think hydras are fine. They're not meant to kill you and they're not meant to be alone. Hydras are territory denial (much like sentries) that protect the gorge from rushing and are meant to stall the enemy, not outright kill them. Gorge + hydras + skulk are very effective at holding territory, much more so than simply two skulk or even a lerk and skulk.
The rest of your suggestions are fine, in my opinion. They fix some problems (onos) while band-aiding others (fade). They're very simple and incomplete for real balance, but an acceptable starting point for discussion.
In regards to the flamethrower, gorge heal spray currently has a 50% chance to put out fire when it hits an alien.
I also think hydras are fine. They're not meant to kill you and they're not meant to be alone. Hydras are territory denial (much like sentries) that protect the gorge from rushing and are meant to stall the enemy, not outright kill them. Gorge + hydras + skulk are very effective at holding territory, much more so than simply two skulk or even a lerk and skulk.
The rest of your suggestions are fine, in my opinion. They fix some problems (onos) while band-aiding others (fade). They're very simple and incomplete for real balance, but an acceptable starting point for discussion.
In regards to the flamethrower, gorge heal spray currently has a 50% chance to put out fire when it hits an alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starting with the shotgun nerf. The idea behind hitting it hard was so that the fade would have a chance to be effective. As it is, even with the fade at 40 res instead of 50, people will still rarely/never evolve to it because it will die to 20 res in a little more than 1 shot. Is the solution to give the Fade more health then, instead of nerfing the shotgun? What about lowering the magazine size on the shotgun to make it a little less forgiving (6 instead of 8?)? Further reducing the cost of the Fade? I understand that teamwork can overcome a shotgun, but it does seem silly that in the Fade vs Shotgun matchup, the shotgun will win most of the time. The real problem I have with it is that it is the pretty much the sole reason as to why the Aliens just stay as skulks until the Onos is available. It's simply not worth investing 40 res into something that dies to 20 res regularly, 20 res that can be re-used. I would like to point out that the Flamethrower is also a fairly effective anti-lifeform weapon that only costs 5 more res. Thing is, who wants to invest the extra 5 res when the shotgun performs better in almost every situation? What if some of the damage was moved out of the shotgun and into the flamethrower?
Hydras shouldn't kill you super fast, that's why I suggested a very low fire rate increase. A Hydra however is definitely not as effective as a sentry gun, obviously in part due to clogs. However I can honestly say that as a skulk or alien in general, I have a much harder time dealing with a group of sentry guns than I do with some clogs and hydras. The idea behind the buff was to close that gap a little bit.
In regards to simplicity, that was the idea. Something that we can take, perhaps tweak slightly, and end up with an overall more balanced game. The only thing I think really needs addressing as soon as possible is the 5 minute Onos. It just ruins the fun of the game for Marines if it's used correctly.
Concerning the Flamethrower, thanks I didn't know that. This is probably another reason as to why nobody wants to use it (in addition to the shotgun pretty much being strictly better).
The buttswipe should also be able to stun/slow aliens for a brief moment. Perhaps even make them see stars, obstructing their vision for a little bit(similar to the gorge spit)
I agree that alien comm should have to wait to until 2 hives to drop Onos eggs - same for anybody that has the res to evolve to one.
That or allow marine comm to continue to build exos/jetbacks once the Protolab is built.
Hydras shouldn't kill you super fast, that's why I suggested a very low fire rate increase. A Hydra however is definitely not as effective as a sentry gun, obviously in part due to clogs. However I can honestly say that as a skulk or alien in general, I have a much harder time dealing with a group of sentry guns than I do with some clogs and hydras. The idea behind the buff was to close that gap a little bit.
In regards to simplicity, that was the idea. Something that we can take, perhaps tweak slightly, and end up with an overall more balanced game. The only thing I think really needs addressing as soon as possible is the 5 minute Onos. It just ruins the fun of the game for Marines if it's used correctly.
Concerning the Flamethrower, thanks I didn't know that. This is probably another reason as to why nobody wants to use it (in addition to the shotgun pretty much being strictly better).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In response to the shotgun discussion: One of my main arguments against the nerfing of the shotgun is that the LMG nearly as good as the shotgun is at the very high levels of play. Nerfing the shotgun for the benefit of the fade won't fix the fact that LMGs also destroy fades. If both LMGs and shotguns destroy fades at very high levels, then the answer should be to increase the fade against all weapons via a health increase (and some bug fixes). Speaking on a strictly DPS terms, the LMG actually puts out more DPS than the shotgun. It's just harder to aim and more-steady instead of bursts of damage. Also, you never die in <3 shotgun shots assuming appropriate tech (ie cara vs w3 or vanilla vs w1-2). At the same rate, you die in ~35 bullets (math? -- I'm at class) against w3 lmg. An LMG fires off 35 bullets faster than a shotgun fires 3 shots. I'm assuming the flinch-bug dragon is speaking about is going to be fixed at some time. The general public will see how powerful LMGs are against fades if that flinching bug is ever fixed.
I again have to disagree with your assessment of hydra vs sentry guns. I think hydras are more beneficial for two reasons -- 1) they are pres and spreadable 2) they don't force an expensive, otherwise poor tech path (robo). In a 6v6 team, aliens can drop 6-9 hydras without stalling the team's tech and having pres to get out necessary lifeforms. Try building a robo, sentries, and winning as marines in a similar situation.
More flamethrower discussion: I never want the flamethrower to be a viable killing weapon. You don't have to aim it. Back in the day, the flamethrower did moderate to high lifeform damage. It was terrible. JP + flamethrower to victory.
The fade needs way more HP and more attack/DPS, perhaps a new skill as well, i believe it should stay 50 res and be made worth the cost, because currently the fade is not an option since it is just a little bit better than a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=2022461:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:42 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 13 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well theres a little known feature about the LMG vs fade where half your bullets are eaten by the flinch animation, but hey ive only reported that bug countless times, maybe in about another 10-20 patches it will get fixed (same bug as the harvester). Its actually more benifical to NOT shoot the fade much if you have an lmg/sg group as the LMG, as your just going to cause more of the SG pellets to miss. However there are issues with the SG spread that do need adjustment as its effective range is to great, but considering how random the registration has been the past couple builds I wouldnt want to see any changes there yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't know it was as severe as Dragon is stating, but it is clearly obvious when shooting a harvester. Certain units or buildings (like the harvester and apparently the fade) have hitboxes that swing wildly or disappear bullets during their flinch animation (the animation that plays when the unit receives damage).
You can test this out yourself very easily by shooting at the bulb part of a harvester with damage numbers on. You'll notice clearly less than 500 damage. A full mag does 500 damage. I just tested this 3 times and dealed 390, 440, and 430 damage. I'm point blank, didn't miss, but instead these bullets were lost. Dragon claims (and of anyone, he would know) that this happens with the fade as well -- obviously harder to test.