Actually, I think misting doesn't speed up structure build times, just maturation, even though it shows them "sucking" the mist in. I haven't tested it myself, but someone said he tested hive build times and they are unchanged by misting. It's probably the same for other structures. I'll test it tonight myself actually, been meaning for a long time...
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=2022192:date=Nov 14 2012, 03:32 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 14 2012, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Echoing whips onto marines would be very useful as a defensive maneuver too. I think the main issue with it is the same issue as with all structure-oriented strategies: res cost. The alien comm has a bunch of tech to buy that's more important than stuff this, and after that's done he's better off saving for Onos eggs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats why we need an energy pool! :)
<!--quoteo(post=2022659:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:38 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 13 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I think misting doesn't speed up structure build times, just maturation, even though it shows them "sucking" the mist in. I haven't tested it myself, but someone said he tested hive build times and they are unchanged by misting. It's probably the same for other structures. I'll test it tonight myself actually, been meaning for a long time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I at one time thought that Nutrient Mist did a lot of things it doesn't do.
It does nothing for build times but it does increase maturation rates which make them better, faster.
This is actually one of the best reasons to shift structures into an area, since you can put them out at full strength in a hurry. It also lets you spend <i>less</i> T.Res on structures, since after an area has been secured you can move your entire forward base further up and hold a new area with it cheaper than it would cost for another full forward location.
A gorge, however, does speed the construction time which is why they are <i>awesome</i> when you have even one cooperative Gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=2022659:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:38 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 13 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I think misting doesn't speed up structure build times, just maturation, even though it shows them "sucking" the mist in. I haven't tested it myself, but someone said he tested hive build times and they are unchanged by misting. It's probably the same for other structures. I'll test it tonight myself actually, been meaning for a long time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Bah... feels faster for some reason. Now I feel like an idiot. Did it at some point improve build time?
<!--quoteo(post=2022690:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:08 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Nov 13 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? Bah... feels faster for some reason. Now I feel like an idiot. Did it at some point improve build time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't say, but it encourages team-work with a Gorge and really complements the results you'll see when working with your area-denial specialist unit. Lack of good gorges is the #1 culprit of mid-game Alien losses.
Yeah, just timed it and there's no effect (at least not noticeable +-1-2 seconds stopwatch error) from misting built structures at all. It does speed up maturity when the structure is already built, but there is no speed-up on build time.
Gorges' heal spray DOES speed-up structure build times however. That's well-known I think...
<!--quoteo(post=2022706:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:34 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 13 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, just timed it and there's no effect (at least not noticeable +-1-2 seconds stopwatch error) from misting built structures at all. It does speed up maturity when the structure is already built, but there is no speed-up on build time.
Gorges' heal spray DOES speed-up structure build times however. That's well-known I think...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it speeds maturity, so using it on an unbuilt hive will actually make it's health go up faster so it's less likely to die
That's an interesting point about the health, but I'm mostly interested in actual build time when I make structures. Maturity is nice, but it's not that huge IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=2022410:date=Nov 13 2012, 07:57 PM:name=Chops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chops @ Nov 13 2012, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like to do this as well.. One of my favorite defensive moves is to shift a whip next to a marine and then bonewall the other side of him (works best in a hallway) to trap them. Quite the fun trap! With bonewall and a shift/whip deployment base, I can defend my hives quite well without the need of those pesky teammates or a ton of whips everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you been playing with those noobs in the office again? Tisk. They don't know the difference between a bonewall and their backsides...
:P
Honestly, I like what you are saying. But feasibility is just silly, because I know that bonewall will go down within seconds... and the marines will move back from it once that happens and lmg it to kahraa hell.
<!--quoteo(post=2022724:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 14 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you been playing with those noobs in the office again? Tisk. They don't know the difference between a bonewall and their backsides...
:P
Honestly, I like what you are saying. But feasibility is just silly, because I know that bonewall will go down within seconds... and the marines will move back from it once that happens and lmg it to kahraa hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Alien comm is a difficult thing to master. There's so many little things you can do to help your team, most of them situational, but they all cost res and so the whole egg purchase system renders them obsolete. It needs some serious thought.
Bonewall is pretty disappointing. I mean it <i>can</i> be useful but its duration is so short and health so low that at times it's not even worth using. Rupturing a cyst only lasts a couple of seconds and resets the cyst's maturity, which more than halves its health... does it really need to cost res on top of that?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Just commed a game in mineshaft where we had every node except repair and pipeline. I built 3 shifts misted them and built about 20 whips. While those were maturing I shade/cysted into the marine's last base. They complained that they only lost because we had 3 oni the previous round btw. By the time I finished cysting into the marine base with them barely noticing my whips were ready and the 3 shifts had echo. I then proceded to drop 20 whips into the center of their base scattered around their ips. Took all of about 10 seconds, and was awesome.
Actually, what I want to try sometime, which might actually be somewhat practical, is during a big push, get infestation into the base (something I tend to do during big pushes anyway), echo a shade in, and then ink to blind all the marines. (Granted, I don't know if ink nullifies the passive detection from observatories, or if it only works on scan).
<!--quoteo(post=2022195:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:39 AM:name=Shahnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shahnaz @ Nov 13 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whips are incredibly useless and wasting res on them is either due to boredom or stupidity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, I'll sometimes use whips when I'm on three base and already have essential upgrades. Like...if my team is mounting a big assault, where all the marines are distracted defending, I'll sometimes drop a whip next to a marine res node that never got cleared out for some reason, and let the whip kill it. Or if I'm rich and there's one brave marine that got behind siege lines, I don't mind dropping a whip to guard upgrade spurs/shells; better than losing about 50 res worth of low HP buildings to some brave little marine with an axe.
Don't get me wrong, whips aren't what get you into the winning position, but once you're in a winning spot, whips can be like adding a couple more (crappy) team members, and thus outnumbering the enemy team.
<!--quoteo(post=2022607:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:01 PM:name=Heart1987)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heart1987 @ Nov 13 2012, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, I had a game as alien commander in mineshaft. Everything goes right and we manage to lockdown the marines in deposit. As usual, they can camp like there's no tomorrow and since I have 11 (ELEVEN!) extractors, I pretty much have always 150+ res. For this reason I make 3 shifts, make 9 wips + bombard, then when I call the final rush of my team, I start spamming cysts, and use that little, tiny space of infestation to teleport my wips while my aliens are combating. All of a sudden I start seeing "+5" everywhere in the room, it's my wips killing stuff. Believe me or not, those 9 wips pretty much ended the game, since my assault would have probably required another go for it to succeed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have near complete map control, it doesn't matter much what you do, really. Send in a train of whips, drop onos eggs, infest into their base to annoy them... as long as your team has blocked both exits with onos/lerk/fade/gorge spam, it's really only a matter of time.
<!--quoteo(post=2022527:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:57 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 13 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL, glad that's not in the game since I like to gorge a lot! Not that the 10 P.Res matters, you can suicide on a marines base as gorge quite a few times while throwing bile bomb all the while without going broke. (Often times don't even need to suicide to do it. Love that arc!) At least, you should be able to as long as your team isn't losing res nodes left and right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk lift mod was the single most awesome combat mod, with gorge hook coming a very close second. How do you think I got my name... I spent all game flying into the hive, snatching a gorge and taking it away to be my plaything.
I did a similar thing in a game last night, without the shades. We had three hives, they had 2 CCs, res was relatively even RT wise (so in our favour metagame wise). So just 8 whips into their base at the same time as an onos and a gorge. Gave me enough time to cyst into their base under the distraction, drop the whips straight in front of the powernode and watch them lose the base. Yes it may have been expensive, but it was an effective way of wiping out half their base only using 2 players (the others were busy fighting off an exo push). For the price of the upgrade, whips and echo I took down - Proto, adv armoury, IP, obs, power node. Oh and the onos/gorge escaped, got chased, and came back to finish off the base. Individual whips might not hurt, but 8 of them certainly does.
You might argue an extra onos or two might have been more effective, but the surprise factor is just as important. Oh and the fun factor as the other team go 'wtf is going on in our base'. It also might work better with bombard whips, but I dont know about the comparative effectiveness since bombard is expensive.
Shift Hive 15 res Shift 15 res *wait for maturity aka "can't place anywhere risky" Echo 15 res First Whip 15 res Second Whip 15 res Risky Forward Cyst Chain 15 res *can vary* Echo ability on both Whips 6 res
Total: 96 res. . . 126 RES if you upgraded the whips with Bombard like anyone would if this strat was 80% cheaper
Crag is the best mature structure right now because it won't pile drive your economy into the ground
After having a second game in mineshaft I came to the conclusion that multiple shifts + mass whips teleport is just a stall breaker. Typical end game: you came to a stall, your team controls most of RT so everyone has enough res for everything but both you and the marines can't break into each others bases. Teleport whips can now work pretty much like ARC spam, just cyst quickly their base while your team is attacking and teleport them as soon as you see even a small dot of infestation, (no real need to upgrade to bombard). The best is that they will finish teleporting even if the infestation is gene because they killed the cyst in the mean time. This strategy also has the slight advantage that an emergency teleport can get your whips into one of your hives and help your team when you need to defend. It's pretty much like a distress beacon, just waaaay more costly.
Again, this is only a stall breaker strategy, it's not viable unless everyone in your team has a ton of res and ton of income and you need to sink those res. EG: need to spend 200 TRes? 2 upgraded shifts, 8 whips, nutrient mist, cyst chain + teleport CAN be a good way to spend them :P
Comments
thats why we need an energy pool! :)
I at one time thought that Nutrient Mist did a lot of things it doesn't do.
It does nothing for build times but it does increase maturation rates which make them better, faster.
This is actually one of the best reasons to shift structures into an area, since you can put them out at full strength in a hurry. It also lets you spend <i>less</i> T.Res on structures, since after an area has been secured you can move your entire forward base further up and hold a new area with it cheaper than it would cost for another full forward location.
A gorge, however, does speed the construction time which is why they are <i>awesome</i> when you have even one cooperative Gorge.
Even alien's <i>structures</i> are hit and run.
Haha, love it.
Really? Bah... feels faster for some reason. Now I feel like an idiot. Did it at some point improve build time?
Couldn't say, but it encourages team-work with a Gorge and really complements the results you'll see when working with your area-denial specialist unit. Lack of good gorges is the #1 culprit of mid-game Alien losses.
Gorges' heal spray DOES speed-up structure build times however. That's well-known I think...
Gorges' heal spray DOES speed-up structure build times however. That's well-known I think...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it speeds maturity, so using it on an unbuilt hive will actually make it's health go up faster so it's less likely to die
Have you been playing with those noobs in the office again? Tisk. They don't know the difference between a bonewall and their backsides...
:P
Honestly, I like what you are saying. But feasibility is just silly, because I know that bonewall will go down within seconds... and the marines will move back from it once that happens and lmg it to kahraa hell.
:P
Honestly, I like what you are saying. But feasibility is just silly, because I know that bonewall will go down within seconds... and the marines will move back from it once that happens and lmg it to kahraa hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Alien comm is a difficult thing to master. There's so many little things you can do to help your team, most of them situational, but they all cost res and so the whole egg purchase system renders them obsolete. It needs some serious thought.
Bonewall is pretty disappointing. I mean it <i>can</i> be useful but its duration is so short and health so low that at times it's not even worth using. Rupturing a cyst only lasts a couple of seconds and resets the cyst's maturity, which more than halves its health... does it really need to cost res on top of that?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2022195:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:39 AM:name=Shahnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shahnaz @ Nov 13 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whips are incredibly useless and wasting res on them is either due to boredom or stupidity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, I'll sometimes use whips when I'm on three base and already have essential upgrades. Like...if my team is mounting a big assault, where all the marines are distracted defending, I'll sometimes drop a whip next to a marine res node that never got cleared out for some reason, and let the whip kill it. Or if I'm rich and there's one brave marine that got behind siege lines, I don't mind dropping a whip to guard upgrade spurs/shells; better than losing about 50 res worth of low HP buildings to some brave little marine with an axe.
Don't get me wrong, whips aren't what get you into the winning position, but once you're in a winning spot, whips can be like adding a couple more (crappy) team members, and thus outnumbering the enemy team.
For this reason I make 3 shifts, make 9 wips + bombard, then when I call the final rush of my team, I start spamming cysts, and use that little, tiny space of infestation to teleport my wips while my aliens are combating. All of a sudden I start seeing "+5" everywhere in the room, it's my wips killing stuff. Believe me or not, those 9 wips pretty much ended the game, since my assault would have probably required another go for it to succeed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have near complete map control, it doesn't matter much what you do, really. Send in a train of whips, drop onos eggs, infest into their base to annoy them... as long as your team has blocked both exits with onos/lerk/fade/gorge spam, it's really only a matter of time.
Lerk lift mod was the single most awesome combat mod, with gorge hook coming a very close second. How do you think I got my name... I spent all game flying into the hive, snatching a gorge and taking it away to be my plaything.
For the price of the upgrade, whips and echo I took down - Proto, adv armoury, IP, obs, power node. Oh and the onos/gorge escaped, got chased, and came back to finish off the base. Individual whips might not hurt, but 8 of them certainly does.
You might argue an extra onos or two might have been more effective, but the surprise factor is just as important. Oh and the fun factor as the other team go 'wtf is going on in our base'. It also might work better with bombard whips, but I dont know about the comparative effectiveness since bombard is expensive.
Shift Hive 15 res
Shift 15 res
*wait for maturity aka "can't place anywhere risky"
Echo 15 res
First Whip 15 res
Second Whip 15 res
Risky Forward Cyst Chain 15 res *can vary*
Echo ability on both Whips 6 res
Total: 96 res. . . 126 RES if you upgraded the whips with Bombard like anyone would if this strat was 80% cheaper
Crag is the best mature structure right now because it won't pile drive your economy into the ground
Again, this is only a stall breaker strategy, it's not viable unless everyone in your team has a ton of res and ton of income and you need to sink those res. EG: need to spend 200 TRes? 2 upgraded shifts, 8 whips, nutrient mist, cyst chain + teleport CAN be a good way to spend them :P