Modded servers are filtered by default so I'm not sure what you're worried about
It will be a long time before people take note and as far as NS1 I didn't play main game so combat was a real breath of fresh air for me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not with the new patch they're not, also you have to re-tick it every time you bring up the server list.
Can't help but agree.. Combat is the antithesis of Natural Selection's best qualities and atmosphere. Go and play AVP if ye want the raw action, its combat is superior in numerous means and the graphics are absolutely stunning. Actually, if you do, let me know, I'd love to have some non-hacking compadres for the hunt.
Combat in NS2 risks becoming the dominant game-made due to the low-investment, compulsive, counter-strike-style 'just one more round!' feeling. You can't control that gamers generally want immediate gratification even at the expense of the game's depth and atmosphere.
Looking forward to an even more fleshed out combat mode, strangely enough it does the quick and instant action part way better than NS2 vanilla right now. Let's also not forget that it gives new players a great place to try out and practice higher lifeforms in a somewhat focused way, as such it helps with with the immense learning curve on the Kharaa side.
Also looking forward to NS2 siege maps (whoever they would play out with ARC's xD) and an NS2 version of ns_stargate and whatever other crazy stuff people can come up with. Variety is fun, having options is fun, combat didn't kill anything it opened the game up for a whole new playerbase.
If more people want to play combat than vanilla than the "free market" has spoken, some people might not like that result but that's the way it goes. Or do you also complain about more people eating at Mc Donalds compared to people eating star cuisine?
<!--quoteo(post=2023959:date=Nov 14 2012, 07:43 PM:name=Toastie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toastie @ Nov 14 2012, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, why are we upset about NS2 having mods? I mean, NS1 WAS a mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The heart of the matter is splintering the community. People want a robust classic community to play with, NS isn't a big enough game to support multiple official modes of play.
<!--quoteo(post=2023987:date=Nov 15 2012, 03:08 AM:name=JKooL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JKooL @ Nov 15 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The heart of the matter is splintering the community. People want a robust classic community to play with, NS isn't a big enough game to support multiple official modes of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> so if am getting this right all modders should stop working on their mods now to please some in the NS community? by your logic we shouldnt allow anyone who play COD into NS cause that game also is instant action mindless fun and those players will play NS2 Rambo style. Any game dies after a certain time no matter how good it is and a very few loyal fans will stay, it has nothing to do with combat or any other mod, infact I have talked to many new players and they only staying around because they can run Combat with realativly old hardware just fine in wait for NS2 to be improved, if there wasn't anything else they can play I would imagine they would get tired of low fps during combat and uninstall the game and leave it behind.
And why would anybody need to dispute that? What's the issue with co servers outnumbering ns servers? Sure there had been a point where the community shrunk and there had only been a couple of populated ns_ servers at certain times of the day.
But that doesn't mean that removing combat mode would have driven people onto the ns_ servers. Worst case: They would have quit playing NS entirely/never started playing it, shrinking the overall community even further.
<!--quoteo(post=2024065:date=Nov 14 2012, 10:25 PM:name=PowerfuryOA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PowerfuryOA @ Nov 14 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately this game can't handle siege =(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure it can, it just hasn't been modded in yet.
The main point of contention is how the population of Classic servers was affected by the presence of Combat. Some said that the allure of Combat shrank the playerbase of Classic, which I'm sure is true to an extent. The counterpoint is that the people who left to play Combat weren't that into the RTS element to begin with, which may or may not be the case. Nobody really knows for sure.
I would sort of like to see a more casual action-oriented game mode personally, but not quite as much senseless deathmatch as Combat was. Something more along the lines of Dominion in LoL.
<!--quoteo(post=2024073:date=Nov 15 2012, 04:34 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 15 2012, 04:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main point of contention is how the population of Classic servers was affected by the presence of Combat. Some said that the allure of Combat shrank the playerbase of Classic, which I'm sure is true to an extent. The counterpoint is that the people who left to play Combat weren't that into the RTS element to begin with, which may or may not be the case. Nobody really knows for sure.
I would sort of like to see a more casual action-oriented game mode personally, but not quite as much senseless deathmatch as Combat was. Something more along the lines of Dominion in LoL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel like I should chime in somewhere here. I'm one of the developers of Combat for NS2. The main reason I decided to write the mod was to provide a sandbox to help new players learn the combat elements of the game and also as a way of providing a short, 20 minute playtime game mode as usually I don't have the free time to play one-hour games. Also, as you can see from the videos I've recorded I run on pretty old hardware and the older builds of NS2 were actually too slow for me to play so I got into the modding side of things more quickly than most. I was a NS1 player for about two years, a paid-up Constellation member and everything, but I got very tired of the asshattery whenever I tried to play commander. I feel that NS2's community doesn't have the same 'get off the comm chair, noob' attitude so I think that Combat won't cause the same problems today.
In terms of whether Combat might fracture the community, that is an issue that a few of us were concerned about at the beginning of the project (though it still seems a distant problem to me right now). Those concerns are why we added a feature for Combat servers to run dual-mode Combat and regular NS2 without server admins having to touch the server at all, apart from configuring it. When the player count is lower than a certain threshold e.g. 10 (chosen by the server operator) the server runs Combat, but it will automatically switch to regular NS2 if a map ends with that many players on the server. This means that you can play Combat at low player counts and use it as a kind of 'pickup game' before the main NS2 game starts, if you prefer. The only part that's missing right now is the ability to have one map rotation for Combat and another for regular NS2 active at the same time, but I'm working on that this week so hopefully it should be ready soon.
seeing how broken the "ns" mode is, that's the only way to have fun in this game, on the otherhand i might aswell go play battlefield3 instead of combat mode.
Combat saved NS1, players were looking to other games for fast paced shooter action and NS1 classic didn't provide it. I loved combat in NS1 and xmenu with buildmenu exceeded it. But as for NS2 combat, I'm not even looking at it. Lets wait until NS2 classic is done and then few years we can look at combat.
I played NS1 quite a bit. Sure I wasnt as fantastic as most on here. I dont have a fancy constellation icon and my old account is loooong gone along with the hotmail account I created it with. Still I played NS classic and combat.
To say combat killed classic is wrong. More people playing combat does not mean they are being leeched from classic. I would simply have played something else instead of going back to classic. I did like the odd seige game but my idea of fun wasnt risking a random commander on a lacklustre game for an hour. In combat I could get in, play effectively for 20 mins then go do something else. In classic I felt bad joining, getting kit then needing to leave because one the kids had gotten out of bed crying.
Classic also started to suffer from fairly asanine servers communities. If you didnt play the party line then you were either ignored, not given kit or vote kicked. Classic servers didnt care, it was a free for all. NS1 classic with buildmod (and xmenu) was positively insane and downright unbalancing. Those servers were pretty much the fullest servers around - ever wondered why? Because they were insanely fun.
Combat in NS2 is enjoyable. I now play more combat than classic simply down to the fun factor. I only play classic if I know I have a block of time to spare. If xmenu and buildmenu appears then I see more torrents of rage but I bet you something, those servers will fill. NS2 classic is niche insofar that you need two people skilled as commanders and a couple of people who know what they are doing on each team. If that doesnt happen then a public game is doomed to be one sided. Combat is not, you need to point, shoot, get points and upgrade.
Is is sad to see a normally "open" community simply dismiss something different as an affront to the sanctity of "classic". May Allah preserve you when marine vs marine with xmenu and buildmod is released.
<!--quoteo(post=2024286:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:55 PM:name=MCMLXXXIV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MCMLXXXIV @ Nov 14 2012, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that NS2's community doesn't have the same 'get off the comm chair, noob' attitude so I think that Combat won't cause the same problems today.
In terms of whether Combat might fracture the community, that is an issue that a few of us were concerned about at the beginning of the project (though it still seems a distant problem to me right now). Those concerns are why we added a feature for Combat servers to run dual-mode Combat and regular NS2 without server admins having to touch the server at all, apart from configuring it. When the player count is lower than a certain threshold e.g. 10 (chosen by the server operator) the server runs Combat, but it will automatically switch to regular NS2 if a map ends with that many players on the server. This means that you can play Combat at low player counts and use it as a kind of 'pickup game' before the main NS2 game starts, if you prefer. The only part that's missing right now is the ability to have one map rotation for Combat and another for regular NS2 active at the same time, but I'm working on that this week so hopefully it should be ready soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's nice to see that you guys had these kinds of things in mind and thought ahead. Kudos.
<!--quoteo(post=2024388:date=Nov 15 2012, 05:45 AM:name=kk20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk20 @ Nov 15 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 classic is niche insofar that you need two people skilled as commanders and a couple of people who know what they are doing on each team. If that doesnt happen then a public game is doomed to be one sided. Combat is not, you need to point, shoot, get points and upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the games of Combat I played last week, it is horribly unbalanced, unfinished, and a poor representation of what a game of NS2 can and should be. The maps are either pulled from NS1 and not altered to fit the new game, or they favor one side or the other depending on the map. For example the map with the straight ladder to the top, marines on the bottom and aliens on top. Once aliens get onos the game is over, because their heaviest unit can just move 5 feet out of spawn and then drop straight into marine CC, while marines have to climb/jetpack/walk up 5 minutes of stairs to reach the hive.
The units themselves are not balanced around combat. The resource model of regular NS2 balances when these units appear. But when someone can go gorge and just heal the hive/hydras until they get enough for onos, the game is over because marines cannot do anything against an onos without the +8 resource points they need for an exo. They no longer have the affordable options of HMGs, which while not giving the marine health gave them a lot of firepower. Combat is res-for-kills without any of the balance or infrastructure of regular NS2.
We also shouldn't forget that giving players a faux-easier way to learn "combat skills" is not really helping them, it's a crutch that will just delay or keep them from learning NS2 skills entirely. NS2 can be difficult (but it's a lot easier to learn than NS1). A lot of the skills you need to aim, shoot, and survive involve playing as a team and using your environment to help you. The twitch-based, as-long-as-i-get-a-kill-its-worth-it attitude that Combat develops will hurt those players when they play a regular NS2 game. They will do worse for trying to copy that play style over, than they would have been if they had just played regular NS2 first.
I enjoyed combat in NS1, but I share the concern of other people that new players will play combat and think this represents what NS2 is all about. NS2 has a lot more of the combat elements of NS1 built into it, and as a result is a lot of fun. But on top of that, the team-based gameplay really makes the game shine, and all of the units and abilities have been and are still being balanced around this dynamic. Dropping someone into Combat is, at the moment, a poor way to show them the qualities of NS2.
tl;dr Combat mode shouldn't be encouraged for new players, it needs to remain a mod, and needs to become more polished/balanced.
my only objection to combat is the servers that wouldn't let you play classic with less than 10 people. so, as long as it remains a severl-level choice, and you don;t have them mixed, I can happily ignore them when I choose. although, I was part of that small contingent who would have loved an classic+ where you could acess xlevel techttree as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2025058:date=Nov 15 2012, 11:34 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Nov 15 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm curious how siege could be reimagined with ARCs rather than a seige room.
Still, would be nice to have a dedicated seige mod for the old school.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I read somewhere that someone is working on seige using stuff from NS2:C that way gorges can build on the front lines without the need of infestation not sure who it was nor do I have the source I do know however that Jim West is currently doing a couple of entites for doors trains and elevators to help with that.
<!--quoteo(post=2014799:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:41 PM:name=Guspaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Guspaz @ Nov 7 2012, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't like it? Don't play it. Nobody is forcing you to play Combat. It existing or not has no impact on you in any way whatsoever.
I don't understand why people complain endlessly about it. If you don't want to play it, why do you care that it exists?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not true.
Many gamers are inclined to fall into the lowest common denominator of easy gameplay out of laziness, thereby denying themselves of a more rich gaming experience because they don't want to put in the extra effort. While this may be good in the short term, it can be worse in the long run as the easier game mode doesn't offer the same depth and reward.
Think of how in RTS games you have people who make "money maps" which let them have all the glory of toying around with the least amount of time or skill investment required. In the long run they are only denying themselves of the richness of the full game, and this can in some cases lead to a cascading negative impact on the entire community if "money maps" begin to be more common than normal maps, strangling the vitality and popularity of the normal game.
Combat did harm to NS1 by giving players a lazy outlet for their NS fix, letting them play around without any of the time or risk involved in a normal server.
Although there's a tendancy to think the player is always right and will settle into whatever they find funnest, that isn't always as true as you might think. Part of good game design is not only encouraging but forcing players to push themselves to engage in more complex gameplay and higher skill levels because if left to their own devices the tendancy of many gamers is to find the easiest way of getting the "rewards" of the game, not necessarily the funnest and most satisfying way in the long run, because they can tend to value the rewards more than the experience of getting the rewards. To put it more simply, in terms of NS, that is to say they can come to value the fast "rewards" of gaining kills in combat over the potentially more rewarding experience of working a team to strategize the conquering of a map. The later holds a higher risk of not being rewarding, requires more time invested to get something out of it, but has the potential to also be far more satisifying in the end, more engaging as a process, and has more long term appeal. The former has very low risk, very low time requirement, before you start pulling in the rewards, but ultimately is not as satisfying and won't hold your attention as much in the long run.
The idea that the two game modes can co-exist doesn't bear out in most games unless you've got enough population to support a vibrant community of people who do actively want the challenge, without the need to push the average gamer into more challenging territory. What ends up happening in many games where players are given a choice between challenging and easy game modes is that players end up migrating over time towards the lowest common denominator of skill, because that is where most of the people are. This can have a game killing impact if it reaches the tipping point where people who want to play the harder game mode actually are forced to play the easier game mode just because that is what the majority of people are playing. In the end you'll end up with everyone playing the easy mode and the hard mode being extinct. This is what happened in NS1 eventually.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
This argument has been raised and buried, raised and buried, for more years than can be remembered.
Charlie himself likes combat, and has played the new version.
I am doing my best to bite my tongue here... and I will try and give a civil response....
Ns1 was a mod, with a small community of players. Combat may have fractured the player base a bit, but it did not kill NS1, the complexity of NS1 killed NS1.
If you don't like combat, don't play NS2, as NS2 is a combination of NS1 classic and NS1 combat gameplay, so in theory, NS2 was ruined for you whinging (keep control) people anyway and you should burn your electronic copies of the game now..
More importantly, NS2 is a FULL RETAIL GAME. That requires a huge amount of support to make it succesful and last. NS2 is Half-Life this time around. NS2 NEEDS MODS, for it to be successful. Don't like combat? I guess you will absolutely hate Proving Grounds then, It takes the best elements of Q3/UT and TS. AND IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ALIENS.
Or How much will you despise GorgeCraft? In GorgeCraft, there are only Gorges, and only building, NOT EVEN ANY FIGHTING, OMG. THESE MODS WILL BE THE DEATH OF NS2.
Just like NS1 and CS were the death of Half-Life.....
You guys are such ###### with-out any understanding of how the ###### world works. Do us all a favor, stick your head up your arse and drop a steamer into your own mouths, I mean, if you let so much come out, you obviously need a refill.
Oh, and don't forget to check the links in my sig to the Modding Collective I created for NS2, where after the 4 mods currently in development are finished, we will be creating even more unique mods in our desperate attempts to kill off NS2...
Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I know I just lowered myself to the level of mindless moron spouting crap on the internet, but hey. I don't spend over 1000 hours of my time creating unique content for ###### who have no brain to rubbish the work...
And I am not even a combat developer, I develop GorgeCraft and Proving Grounds. Charlie has explained previously how mods will be the lifeblood of NS2 and what makes it succesful. If you can't see that, then you are the moron and should follow the advice stated a little higher in this post.
PS - I wonder how many minutes this lasts before a MOD edits it....
Thats right, over 1000 hours of work into a game I love (ns2) just so ###### like you can spill trash. You aren't worth my breath, but luckily, typing doesn't waste oxygen....
<!--quoteo(post=2024592:date=Nov 15 2012, 03:13 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ Nov 15 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the games of Combat I played last week, it is horribly unbalanced, unfinished, and a poor representation of what a game of NS2 can and should be. The maps are either pulled from NS1 and not altered to fit the new game, or they favor one side or the other depending on the map. For example the map with the straight ladder to the top, marines on the bottom and aliens on top. Once aliens get onos the game is over, because their heaviest unit can just move 5 feet out of spawn and then drop straight into marine CC, while marines have to climb/jetpack/walk up 5 minutes of stairs to reach the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is because its a fan made mod. It was laughed out of court for having it included. These very forums lambasted the idea of combat from the word go. If people werent so closed to the idea then perhaps in the intervening years it could have been balanced into the core game. That being said, the mod has come along leaps and bounds in the last two weeks.
I for one have had massive amounts of fun both on winning and losing sides in combat.
[quote]Many gamers are inclined to fall into the lowest common denominator of easy gameplay out of laziness, thereby denying themselves of a more rich gaming experience because they don't want to put in the extra effort. While this may be good in the short term, it can be worse in the long run as the easier game mode doesn't offer the same depth and reward.[quote]
Rise, I must disagree with you quite strongly. I for one choose combat over classic mainly due to time constraints. The new "classic" will be better for one reason - personal res. In NS1 if the comm didnt like you or you were "nooB" then you got no kit. No shotguns, no heavy, no JP. The community was shrinking because of a combination of established high level players and a hard learning curve. The same WILL happen to NS2 eventually, simply because newer players will find it very hard to break ground. Combat offers a gameplay that counteracts this. It has nothing to do with laziness and more to do with fun. I dont find MMOs appealing due to the "grinding" involved, I have better things to do with my time. Translating to NS2, if the "classic" servers start to form coteries or cliques then I wont bother playing them if they get too elitist.
Combat will flourish short of being banned by the core game. This is because people want to play it. Saying that combat kills NS2 is the same as saying pop music killed classical music; it is merely an alternative that is more appealing to some.
Soul_Rider, bro, I think you need to calm down. We all appreciate the hard work that you and other people are putting into making new content for this game. We don't want you to stop making it, and I personally still want combat to exist.
But you've also got to listen to the comments of the rest of the player base about how combat should fit into the NS2 community. The #1 biggest complaint I've heard on these forums about Combat mod is that it will leech players from NS2 because it provides a quick gratification to all of the things that are difficult and time-consuming to learn normally. And the easy availability of something like this hurts players who <b>need</b> that period of difficulty and frustration to learn important game skills, skills that will unlock true enjoyment of the game for them in the future. Checkers is a fun game, but it doesn't help chess if you set up a sign in a chess clubhouse that says, "Chess too hard? Try checkers!"
I like Combat, and as long as other people want to play it I think it should stick around. But I think the game and the community should encourage and help people to learn the core gameplay of NS2 before and instead of diving straight into combat-only servers, where they are likely to stay. There needs to be a very clear understanding for those new players that checkers, while fun, is not the same thing as chess.
<!--quoteo(post=2025720:date=Nov 16 2012, 02:30 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ Nov 16 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like Combat, and as long as other people want to play it I think it should stick around. But I think the game and the community should encourage and help people to learn the core gameplay of NS2 before and instead of diving straight into combat-only servers, where they are likely to stay. There needs to be a very clear understanding for those new players that checkers, while fun, is not the same thing as chess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This attitude is good and I agree, help those who want "more" but let those who dont have a mod that can let them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys remember Combat from NS1? That which killed NS? Well guess what, I already see servers today running it in NS2. Way to go and start the doom count on a game that's just barely released!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This attitude is indicative of the original comments on the board suggesting a combat mod. It is this sort of "mind set" that doomed the original classic. I have even read posts concerning mandatory microphones <sigh>
Comments
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Modded servers are filtered by default so I'm not sure what you're worried about
It will be a long time before people take note and as far as NS1 I didn't play main game so combat was a real breath of fresh air for me
Modded servers are filtered by default so I'm not sure what you're worried about
It will be a long time before people take note and as far as NS1 I didn't play main game so combat was a real breath of fresh air for me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not with the new patch they're not, also you have to re-tick it every time you bring up the server list.
<a href="http://imgur.com/zsAki" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/zsAkil.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Was this patch even tested?
I know it was, but this seems like it wasn't tested in any other aspect than "LOL BOOM BOOM DEAD ALIUN I WINS!"
Combat in NS2 risks becoming the dominant game-made due to the low-investment, compulsive, counter-strike-style 'just one more round!' feeling. You can't control that gamers generally want immediate gratification even at the expense of the game's depth and atmosphere.
It's a risk.
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LoL if anything CoD copied NS1 since NS1 was out before CoD introduced progressive multiplayer by many years. :P
Also looking forward to NS2 siege maps (whoever they would play out with ARC's xD) and an NS2 version of ns_stargate and whatever other crazy stuff people can come up with. Variety is fun, having options is fun, combat didn't kill anything it opened the game up for a whole new playerbase.
If more people want to play combat than vanilla than the "free market" has spoken, some people might not like that result but that's the way it goes. Or do you also complain about more people eating at Mc Donalds compared to people eating star cuisine?
The heart of the matter is splintering the community. People want a robust classic community to play with, NS isn't a big enough game to support multiple official modes of play.
so if am getting this right all modders should stop working on their mods now to please some in the NS community?
by your logic we shouldnt allow anyone who play COD into NS cause that game also is instant action mindless fun and those players will play NS2 Rambo style.
Any game dies after a certain time no matter how good it is and a very few loyal fans will stay, it has nothing to do with combat or any other mod, infact I have talked to many new players and they only staying around because they can run Combat with realativly old hardware just fine in wait for NS2 to be improved, if there wasn't anything else they can play I would imagine they would get tired of low fps during combat and uninstall the game and leave it behind.
Sure there had been a point where the community shrunk and there had only been a couple of populated ns_ servers at certain times of the day.
But that doesn't mean that removing combat mode would have driven people onto the ns_ servers. Worst case: They would have quit playing NS entirely/never started playing it, shrinking the overall community even further.
Unfortunately this game can't handle siege =(
Sure it can, it just hasn't been modded in yet.
I would sort of like to see a more casual action-oriented game mode personally, but not quite as much senseless deathmatch as Combat was. Something more along the lines of Dominion in LoL.
I would sort of like to see a more casual action-oriented game mode personally, but not quite as much senseless deathmatch as Combat was. Something more along the lines of Dominion in LoL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel like I should chime in somewhere here. I'm one of the developers of Combat for NS2. The main reason I decided to write the mod was to provide a sandbox to help new players learn the combat elements of the game and also as a way of providing a short, 20 minute playtime game mode as usually I don't have the free time to play one-hour games. Also, as you can see from the videos I've recorded I run on pretty old hardware and the older builds of NS2 were actually too slow for me to play so I got into the modding side of things more quickly than most. I was a NS1 player for about two years, a paid-up Constellation member and everything, but I got very tired of the asshattery whenever I tried to play commander. I feel that NS2's community doesn't have the same 'get off the comm chair, noob' attitude so I think that Combat won't cause the same problems today.
In terms of whether Combat might fracture the community, that is an issue that a few of us were concerned about at the beginning of the project (though it still seems a distant problem to me right now). Those concerns are why we added a feature for Combat servers to run dual-mode Combat and regular NS2 without server admins having to touch the server at all, apart from configuring it. When the player count is lower than a certain threshold e.g. 10 (chosen by the server operator) the server runs Combat, but it will automatically switch to regular NS2 if a map ends with that many players on the server. This means that you can play Combat at low player counts and use it as a kind of 'pickup game' before the main NS2 game starts, if you prefer. The only part that's missing right now is the ability to have one map rotation for Combat and another for regular NS2 active at the same time, but I'm working on that this week so hopefully it should be ready soon.
To say combat killed classic is wrong. More people playing combat does not mean they are being leeched from classic. I would simply have played something else instead of going back to classic. I did like the odd seige game but my idea of fun wasnt risking a random commander on a lacklustre game for an hour. In combat I could get in, play effectively for 20 mins then go do something else. In classic I felt bad joining, getting kit then needing to leave because one the kids had gotten out of bed crying.
Classic also started to suffer from fairly asanine servers communities. If you didnt play the party line then you were either ignored, not given kit or vote kicked. Classic servers didnt care, it was a free for all. NS1 classic with buildmod (and xmenu) was positively insane and downright unbalancing. Those servers were pretty much the fullest servers around - ever wondered why? Because they were insanely fun.
Combat in NS2 is enjoyable. I now play more combat than classic simply down to the fun factor. I only play classic if I know I have a block of time to spare. If xmenu and buildmenu appears then I see more torrents of rage but I bet you something, those servers will fill. NS2 classic is niche insofar that you need two people skilled as commanders and a couple of people who know what they are doing on each team. If that doesnt happen then a public game is doomed to be one sided. Combat is not, you need to point, shoot, get points and upgrade.
Is is sad to see a normally "open" community simply dismiss something different as an affront to the sanctity of "classic". May Allah preserve you when marine vs marine with xmenu and buildmod is released.
In terms of whether Combat might fracture the community, that is an issue that a few of us were concerned about at the beginning of the project (though it still seems a distant problem to me right now). Those concerns are why we added a feature for Combat servers to run dual-mode Combat and regular NS2 without server admins having to touch the server at all, apart from configuring it. When the player count is lower than a certain threshold e.g. 10 (chosen by the server operator) the server runs Combat, but it will automatically switch to regular NS2 if a map ends with that many players on the server. This means that you can play Combat at low player counts and use it as a kind of 'pickup game' before the main NS2 game starts, if you prefer. The only part that's missing right now is the ability to have one map rotation for Combat and another for regular NS2 active at the same time, but I'm working on that this week so hopefully it should be ready soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's nice to see that you guys had these kinds of things in mind and thought ahead. Kudos.
From the games of Combat I played last week, it is horribly unbalanced, unfinished, and a poor representation of what a game of NS2 can and should be. The maps are either pulled from NS1 and not altered to fit the new game, or they favor one side or the other depending on the map. For example the map with the straight ladder to the top, marines on the bottom and aliens on top. Once aliens get onos the game is over, because their heaviest unit can just move 5 feet out of spawn and then drop straight into marine CC, while marines have to climb/jetpack/walk up 5 minutes of stairs to reach the hive.
The units themselves are not balanced around combat. The resource model of regular NS2 balances when these units appear. But when someone can go gorge and just heal the hive/hydras until they get enough for onos, the game is over because marines cannot do anything against an onos without the +8 resource points they need for an exo. They no longer have the affordable options of HMGs, which while not giving the marine health gave them a lot of firepower. Combat is res-for-kills without any of the balance or infrastructure of regular NS2.
We also shouldn't forget that giving players a faux-easier way to learn "combat skills" is not really helping them, it's a crutch that will just delay or keep them from learning NS2 skills entirely. NS2 can be difficult (but it's a lot easier to learn than NS1). A lot of the skills you need to aim, shoot, and survive involve playing as a team and using your environment to help you. The twitch-based, as-long-as-i-get-a-kill-its-worth-it attitude that Combat develops will hurt those players when they play a regular NS2 game. They will do worse for trying to copy that play style over, than they would have been if they had just played regular NS2 first.
I enjoyed combat in NS1, but I share the concern of other people that new players will play combat and think this represents what NS2 is all about. NS2 has a lot more of the combat elements of NS1 built into it, and as a result is a lot of fun. But on top of that, the team-based gameplay really makes the game shine, and all of the units and abilities have been and are still being balanced around this dynamic. Dropping someone into Combat is, at the moment, a poor way to show them the qualities of NS2.
tl;dr Combat mode shouldn't be encouraged for new players, it needs to remain a mod, and needs to become more polished/balanced.
although, I was part of that small contingent who would have loved an classic+ where you could acess xlevel techttree as well.
I'm curious how siege could be reimagined with ARCs rather than a seige room.
Still, would be nice to have a dedicated seige mod for the old school.
Still, would be nice to have a dedicated seige mod for the old school.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I read somewhere that someone is working on seige using stuff from NS2:C that way gorges can build on the front lines without the need of infestation not sure who it was nor do I have the source I do know however that Jim West is currently doing a couple of entites for doors trains and elevators to help with that.
I don't understand why people complain endlessly about it. If you don't want to play it, why do you care that it exists?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not true.
Many gamers are inclined to fall into the lowest common denominator of easy gameplay out of laziness, thereby denying themselves of a more rich gaming experience because they don't want to put in the extra effort. While this may be good in the short term, it can be worse in the long run as the easier game mode doesn't offer the same depth and reward.
Think of how in RTS games you have people who make "money maps" which let them have all the glory of toying around with the least amount of time or skill investment required. In the long run they are only denying themselves of the richness of the full game, and this can in some cases lead to a cascading negative impact on the entire community if "money maps" begin to be more common than normal maps, strangling the vitality and popularity of the normal game.
Combat did harm to NS1 by giving players a lazy outlet for their NS fix, letting them play around without any of the time or risk involved in a normal server.
Although there's a tendancy to think the player is always right and will settle into whatever they find funnest, that isn't always as true as you might think. Part of good game design is not only encouraging but forcing players to push themselves to engage in more complex gameplay and higher skill levels because if left to their own devices the tendancy of many gamers is to find the easiest way of getting the "rewards" of the game, not necessarily the funnest and most satisfying way in the long run, because they can tend to value the rewards more than the experience of getting the rewards.
To put it more simply, in terms of NS, that is to say they can come to value the fast "rewards" of gaining kills in combat over the potentially more rewarding experience of working a team to strategize the conquering of a map.
The later holds a higher risk of not being rewarding, requires more time invested to get something out of it, but has the potential to also be far more satisifying in the end, more engaging as a process, and has more long term appeal.
The former has very low risk, very low time requirement, before you start pulling in the rewards, but ultimately is not as satisfying and won't hold your attention as much in the long run.
The idea that the two game modes can co-exist doesn't bear out in most games unless you've got enough population to support a vibrant community of people who do actively want the challenge, without the need to push the average gamer into more challenging territory.
What ends up happening in many games where players are given a choice between challenging and easy game modes is that players end up migrating over time towards the lowest common denominator of skill, because that is where most of the people are. This can have a game killing impact if it reaches the tipping point where people who want to play the harder game mode actually are forced to play the easier game mode just because that is what the majority of people are playing. In the end you'll end up with everyone playing the easy mode and the hard mode being extinct. This is what happened in NS1 eventually.
Charlie himself likes combat, and has played the new version.
I am doing my best to bite my tongue here... and I will try and give a civil response....
Ns1 was a mod, with a small community of players. Combat may have fractured the player base a bit, but it did not kill NS1, the complexity of NS1 killed NS1.
If you don't like combat, don't play NS2, as NS2 is a combination of NS1 classic and NS1 combat gameplay, so in theory, NS2 was ruined for you whinging (keep control) people anyway and you should burn your electronic copies of the game now..
More importantly, NS2 is a FULL RETAIL GAME. That requires a huge amount of support to make it succesful and last. NS2 is Half-Life this time around. NS2 NEEDS MODS, for it to be successful. Don't like combat? I guess you will absolutely hate Proving Grounds then, It takes the best elements of Q3/UT and TS. AND IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ALIENS.
Or How much will you despise GorgeCraft? In GorgeCraft, there are only Gorges, and only building, NOT EVEN ANY FIGHTING, OMG. THESE MODS WILL BE THE DEATH OF NS2.
Just like NS1 and CS were the death of Half-Life.....
You guys are such ###### with-out any understanding of how the ###### world works. Do us all a favor, stick your head up your arse and drop a steamer into your own mouths, I mean, if you let so much come out, you obviously need a refill.
Oh, and don't forget to check the links in my sig to the Modding Collective I created for NS2, where after the 4 mods currently in development are finished, we will be creating even more unique mods in our desperate attempts to kill off NS2...
Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I know I just lowered myself to the level of mindless moron spouting crap on the internet, but hey. I don't spend over 1000 hours of my time creating unique content for ###### who have no brain to rubbish the work...
And I am not even a combat developer, I develop GorgeCraft and Proving Grounds. Charlie has explained previously how mods will be the lifeblood of NS2 and what makes it succesful. If you can't see that, then you are the moron and should follow the advice stated a little higher in this post.
PS - I wonder how many minutes this lasts before a MOD edits it....
Thats right, over 1000 hours of work into a game I love (ns2) just so ###### like you can spill trash. You aren't worth my breath, but luckily, typing doesn't waste oxygen....
One divided by zero.
Punch a baby.
Crunchy sock in a microwave.
You're welcome.
This is because its a fan made mod. It was laughed out of court for having it included. These very forums lambasted the idea of combat from the word go. If people werent so closed to the idea then perhaps in the intervening years it could have been balanced into the core game. That being said, the mod has come along leaps and bounds in the last two weeks.
I for one have had massive amounts of fun both on winning and losing sides in combat.
[quote]Many gamers are inclined to fall into the lowest common denominator of easy gameplay out of laziness, thereby denying themselves of a more rich gaming experience because they don't want to put in the extra effort. While this may be good in the short term, it can be worse in the long run as the easier game mode doesn't offer the same depth and reward.[quote]
Rise, I must disagree with you quite strongly. I for one choose combat over classic mainly due to time constraints. The new "classic" will be better for one reason - personal res. In NS1 if the comm didnt like you or you were "nooB" then you got no kit. No shotguns, no heavy, no JP. The community was shrinking because of a combination of established high level players and a hard learning curve. The same WILL happen to NS2 eventually, simply because newer players will find it very hard to break ground. Combat offers a gameplay that counteracts this. It has nothing to do with laziness and more to do with fun. I dont find MMOs appealing due to the "grinding" involved, I have better things to do with my time. Translating to NS2, if the "classic" servers start to form coteries or cliques then I wont bother playing them if they get too elitist.
Combat will flourish short of being banned by the core game. This is because people want to play it. Saying that combat kills NS2 is the same as saying pop music killed classical music; it is merely an alternative that is more appealing to some.
But you've also got to listen to the comments of the rest of the player base about how combat should fit into the NS2 community. The #1 biggest complaint I've heard on these forums about Combat mod is that it will leech players from NS2 because it provides a quick gratification to all of the things that are difficult and time-consuming to learn normally. And the easy availability of something like this hurts players who <b>need</b> that period of difficulty and frustration to learn important game skills, skills that will unlock true enjoyment of the game for them in the future. Checkers is a fun game, but it doesn't help chess if you set up a sign in a chess clubhouse that says, "Chess too hard? Try checkers!"
I like Combat, and as long as other people want to play it I think it should stick around. But I think the game and the community should encourage and help people to learn the core gameplay of NS2 before and instead of diving straight into combat-only servers, where they are likely to stay. There needs to be a very clear understanding for those new players that checkers, while fun, is not the same thing as chess.
Edit: Grammar.
This attitude is good and I agree, help those who want "more" but let those who dont have a mod that can let them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys remember Combat from NS1? That which killed NS? Well guess what, I already see servers today running it in NS2. Way to go and start the doom count on a game that's just barely released!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This attitude is indicative of the original comments on the board suggesting a combat mod. It is this sort of "mind set" that doomed the original classic. I have even read posts concerning mandatory microphones <sigh>