Fastest way to kill Onos?
Alchemda
Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Trade secrets.. lay it down for us.</div>Onos are a big problem at the moment mid game. It is absolutely crucial that your team effectively take out the [FIRST TWO] Onos's that come into play or the rest of the game is pretty much game over.
We need to formulate the best way to take down an onos? Based on its armor, and the available weapons we have... For instance... If the first onos comes out at about 6-10 minutes on a good alien com game. What do marines HAVE to have by this same time to have the foot soldiers get the necessary gear.
Is it go for quick weapons 2 and GL? or is Flame better on the Onos?
Do you use extra res to build an armory wall? (kinda like a supply depot wall in SC2)?
Do you try to rush jetpacks and GLs?
Whats your secret?
We need to formulate the best way to take down an onos? Based on its armor, and the available weapons we have... For instance... If the first onos comes out at about 6-10 minutes on a good alien com game. What do marines HAVE to have by this same time to have the foot soldiers get the necessary gear.
Is it go for quick weapons 2 and GL? or is Flame better on the Onos?
Do you use extra res to build an armory wall? (kinda like a supply depot wall in SC2)?
Do you try to rush jetpacks and GLs?
Whats your secret?
Comments
First of all, people succumb to the powerful allure of the shotgun far too often. So often I see new players run straight to the armory and get themselves a shotgun when they hear an Onos is coming. Shotguns are probably the single worst weapons to use against Onos. Oh man are they bad. Even at optimum (10cm) range they do less damage than the default rifle. Of course you're never going to be at optimum range, and if you are, you're going to be dead.
Next, grenade launchers. In the linked discussion someone actually said that GLs were effective against Onos. Its good to have a grenade launcher, sure, but just one, max two. And not for the Onos, but for the critters around the Onos that will die in the explosion. Its important to know that, without a direct hit, the damage a grenade does is pitiful. Furthermore, due to clip size and reload time, even with direct hits its damage is still highly undesirable.
The best way to kill an Onos *brace for it* is the starting rifle. I am of the opinion that the starting rifle is even superior to the dual exo minigun, when playing against coordinated aliens. You see, people panic around an exo. They see an exo being bitten and they all become bleeding hearts, pulling out their welder, trying to spray bullets into some gorge spitting at it from a vent. They are so concerned with keeping their own 75 res investment alive, they don't even notice the Onos covering half the room to get to them without being shot once. If everyone is free, then everyone is expendable. So what if you're standing in spores, who cares how many skulks are chomping your ankles, ignore the fade blinking around the room, <b>just shoot the Onos</b>.
Yep, this pretty much sums it up. Early onos doesn't work without resources and two hives. The way a lot of alien comm try to do things they drop the hive after the harvesters. This means if you kill the harvesters it's a huge setback. In addition if you watch where they drop their hive you can usually get to it quickly enough to kill it which is 40 res worth of loss. Marines just have to be more aggressive.
This a million times.
Failing that, W3 is also a pretty big deal when dealing with Oni. GL is pretty worthless against them. JPs are boss and extremely affordable. All you need are LMGs + JPs. Target the gorge(s) and then chase that Onos down.
I find it's also useful to pretend the Onos is an Exo. Use phase gates and beacons accordingly, catch him in a hallway between tech points and laugh, or keep him bouncing between tech points until they figure out they should hit your main base while your marines are taking out as much alien infrastructure as possible. Beacon accordingly. Laugh. Then win.
No ######, but the thread is about killing an onos not making sure they dont get one.
<!--quoteo(post=2025422:date=Nov 16 2012, 01:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 16 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best way to kill an Onos *brace for it* is the starting rifle. I am of the opinion that the starting rifle is even superior to the dual exo minigun, when playing against coordinated aliens. You see, people panic around an exo. They see an exo being bitten and they all become bleeding hearts, pulling out their welder, trying to spray bullets into some gorge spitting at it from a vent. They are so concerned with keeping their own 75 res investment alive, they don't even notice the Onos covering half the room to get to them without being shot once. If everyone is free, then everyone is expendable. So what if you're standing in spores, who cares how many skulks are chomping your ankles, ignore the fade blinking around the room, <b>just shoot the Onos</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then the skulks rape your base cause everyone is dead, but hey! At least you killed the onos amirite?
IMO killing an onos is more a question of tactics and coordination rather than weapons or tech. If everyone is in the right place at the right time even the starting rifles will do very well. Of course a1 and w3 never hurt.
QFT. Also, shooting it.
Skulks can be killed one by one by spawning marines. An Onos cannot. Or wait, let me guess, once you kill off the skulks, the Onos is going to magically keel over? How cute.
No the exo kills the onos. You know, the big easy to hit target whose death your spread and lack of vision wont imepede. Also you are a real cocky son of a ###### you know that? Youre just lucky you have something to back it up, or else no one would take you seriously.
<a href="http://www.gunholstersunlimited.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Lots-of-Ammo.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.gunholstersunlimited.com/blog/w...ots-of-Ammo.jpg</a>
You see all these bullets?
Yeah that's not nearly enough. Multiply that picture by 50, and then throw all of those at the Onos. There you go, that's the Onos' hard counter.
so, the only way to "win" this is in first 2-4minutes, you need to form snipe teams for their harvesters, this "snipeteam" has to go, shoot harvester and get the ###### out, if they fail too many times in earlygame it's pretty much over already. Commander also has to constanntly scan their secondhive location, once it's up commander needs to beacon marines and rush that secondhive, since it's vulnerable ( no eggs lying around ), also if aliens gets upgrade at earlystage of the game, you need to snipe these too.
TL;DR : if marines to fail DOMINATE early game, it's prettymuch GG at that point, even pro players have stated this.
Deny harvesters, and upgrade to weapons 3 as quickly as possible so your LMG troops put a big dent in an Onos. Armor doesn't matter with Onos, just weapons.
On the Aliens team four or five Marines in a forward base have a pretty easy time surprising a charging Onos or making them over confidant so they hang around just a second too long. Mines don't seem to do much to a full health Onos either, and when I'm charging into a room full of Marines I don't honestly feel the Mines go off at all. It's the LMG's that concern me.
(Although the Mines <i>do</i> hurt, it's just probably better to buy a shotgun right after you kill an Onos instead of wasting 15 T.res on Mines that have a hard time killing skulks, let alone wounding an Onos.)
Aggressive Marines play is also very important, since it only takes one guy to slip past the forward aliens to ninja upgrades which are a <i>huge</i> setback for the aliens.
People like to say 'kill the gorge first' a lot, but honestly a Gorge doesn't really do a lot for an Onos in a room full of Marines. Kill the Onos, then squish the Gorge unless you think you can Ninja in a side compartment and get the drop on the Gorge without his protective Onos. A gorge costs 10 res, an Onos costs 75. You might miss the Gorge, but you will <i>never</i> miss an Onos until you are quite dead.
The aliens only win when the Marines fail to hold their resource nodes and expand their control quickly. If skulks are consistently taking those in-between nodes out there isn't much the Marines <i>can</i> do. Phase gates are pretty much the best Marines tech, and it tends to come out way too slowly for most Marines teams.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that without a1 you die in 1 hit from onos, with a1 you die in two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I've ever one-shot a Marine, even as Onos. Gore does 95 puncture damage, which comes out to be something like 114 damage on a player. With 100 HP and 30 AR by default, I don't think that will one-shot even default Marines.
A default clip from an AR does 500 normal damage. An Onos <i>with Carapace</i> has effectively 3300 HP vs Normal damage. This means it would take 7 default Marines one clip each (give or take) to kill an Onos.
Weapons 1 = 550 per clip = 6 Marines
Weapons 2 = 600 per clip = 5.5 Marines (Say 6)
Weapons 3 = 650 per clip = 5.07 Marines (Say 6)
Without Carapace, an Onos has an effective 2300 HP which dramatically changes the results.
Weapons 1 = 4.6 Marines (Say 5)
Weapons 2 = 3.8 Marines (Say 4)
Weapons 3 = 3.5 Marines (Say 4)
So I suppose that honestly weapons 1 makes the biggest difference as to how many troops (I.E. LMG clips) it will take to actually kill an Onos with Carapace. Past that it just allows more misses to occur. This obviously discounts mixed weapons, and can perhaps illustrate why the fast Onos strategy is less useful the larger the team sizes. Especially in competitive play, which couldn't hope to down an Onos in an entire clip each.
Just for comparison, a Shotgun does 170 damage (17x10 pellets) per shot, a Grenade Launcher does 130, a pistol does 25 per shot, and a Flamethrower does 7.5 per tick and reduces Alien energy regen by 60%.
Ergo, the best probable matchup in these terms would be one flamethrower and 6-7 LMG troops with Weapons 1.
If you can catch the Onos without Carapace? It will be comparatively <i>very</i> easy to kill one.
Deny harvesters, and upgrade to weapons 3 as quickly as possible so your LMG troops put a big dent in an Onos. Armor doesn't matter with Onos, just weapons.
People like to say 'kill the gorge first' a lot, but honestly a Gorge doesn't really do a lot for an Onos in a room full of Marines. Kill the Onos, then squish the Gorge unless you think you can Ninja in a side compartment and get the drop on the Gorge without his protective Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that without a1 you die in 1 hit from onos, with a1 you die in two.
As for the gorge, only kill it if you see you wont be able to kill the onos (ie. enough marines to chase it off but not to kill) cause if you dont that onos is gonna be back fully healed in like 30 seconds.
As for the gorge, only kill it if you see you wont be able to kill the onos (ie. enough marines to chase it off but not to kill) cause if you dont that onos is gonna be back fully healed in like 30 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You die in 2 hits with a0 to onos.
You die in 3 hits with a3 to onos, dunno about a2 tbh.
And if you think it's not that high difference... YOU ARE STUPID.
Unless onos takes adrenaline upgrade, he will be out of energy VERY FAST after killing what...3 - 4 marines?
Also, LMG > Shotty in my opinion when dealing with onos.
First of all, most of the Onoses will try to charge away, this will nullify your shotty pretty fast, unless you have jetpacks... but if you are dealing with 3 onoses, before you get jetpacks ... then you lost that game like 10 minutes ago.
The biggest mistake people ever do is... let onos run away. CHASE IT DOWN! It goes VERY FAST to LMG fire, gosh... Cara Onos has 1300 hp and 1000 armor. For LMG it's 3300 hp to be done, am I right?
I don't think it's that much considering your LMGs deal 10 dmg per bullet, and you have 50 bullets in the magazine.
10x50 = 500 damage per LMG on w0.
w0 = 500 damage
w1 = 550 damage
w2 = 600 damage
w3 = 650 damage
It takes around 255 bullets (5 magazines + 3-5 bullets) to kill 1 Cara Onos with W3 LMGs.
LMG empties it's magazine in ~3 seconds and reloads in around 2,3 seconds.
Time to kill an Onos for a solo rine:
25 seconds considering reloading.
So:
1 rine kills an onos in 25 seconds with LMG.
2 rines kills an onos in 13 seconds.
3 rines kill an onos in 8 seconds.
4 rines kill an onos in 6 seconds.
All this with just LMG on W3 upgrade and coordinated fire without any missing and exact same time for reloading.
Now shotguns:
Shotguns shots with 10 pellets per shell.
Each pellet deals 17 base damage.
So:
w0 = 17 damage (170) = 1360 total damage (emptying shotty)
w1 = ~19 damage (187) = 1496 total damage (emptying shotty)
w2 = ~20 damage (204) = 1632 damage (emptying shotty)
w3 = ~22 damage (221) = 1768 total damage (emptying shotty)
fire delay of shotty is 0.9 of a second.
You empty your shotty in around 7,5 seconds.
This means, it would only take two SGunners to kill a single onos by emptying their shotties on Onos, considering coordinated fire, not missing and not dying too fast.
But the point with Onos, you don't really want to be THAT close to a healthy onos.
IT's also way harder to chase down Onos when he charges away, due to spread on your pellets.
Also, put in consideration that.
LMG costs 0 pres/tres.
Shotty costs 20 pres/tres.
Also bear in mind. All this was considering that Onos takes CARAPACE and no gorge or crags nearby.
Onos without carapace has 400 less armor, thus 800 effective health less than carapace one.
You die in 3 hits with a3 to onos, dunno about a2 tbh.
And if you think it's not that high difference... YOU ARE STUPID.
Unless onos takes adrenaline upgrade, he will be out of energy VERY FAST after killing what...3 - 4 marines?
The biggest mistake people ever do is... let onos run away. CHASE IT DOWN! It goes VERY FAST to LMG fire, gosh... Cara Onos has 1300 hp and 1000 armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know, so optimally you would want A3 and W1 at the very least. After reading your post it does seem like the armor upgrades are far more effective than the weapon upgrades. Weapons 1 would still be a big plus though, since it cuts a full extra trooper off what it takes to down the Onos.
And you're 100% right about letting Onos run away. He's running for a reason.
You die in 3 hits with a3 to onos, dunno about a2 tbh.
And if you think it's not that high difference... YOU ARE STUPID.
Unless onos takes adrenaline upgrade, he will be out of energy VERY FAST after killing what...3 - 4 marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye, you are treating it as if its a choice between having armor 3 or not. In fact, it is a choice between armor and weapons. The greatest hindrance to an Onos is not in killing a marine. The difference between one gore and two is basically nothing. Its like 0.5 seconds. The real hindrance to an Onos is in switching from marine to marine. Once you kill one, you need to move to the next one to kill him. Because of the Onos' (relatively) low speed and low maneuverability, this is its greatest difficulty. You can artificially increase this with proper positioning and evasive movement.
You cannot, however, artificially increase the damage your bullets do. Typically you will have a single clip to fire at an Onos, after which he will either have killed you, or he will have vacated the area. The key to killing an Onos effectively is maximizing the damage done in the first 3-4 seconds it appears. Only complete noobs have their health wittled down over time until they die. The vast majority of Onos deaths are due to rapid HP nukes, which only weapon upgrades can improve.
If you minimise the onii's uptime on the marines they will get less kills and take more damage and have to pull out. And when they do pull out unless they have reinforcements jetpack marines can easily scoot after the onos and kill them. The newly buffed flamethrower might be very useful if 1 guy has it and chases the gorges around, starving the aliens of energy.
Like others have said, the LMG excells at killing the onos, shotguns are for burst damage against fades and skulks. This is good because it means the marines phasing around beating the onos back only have to put down 10 pres for a jetpack.
The problem really isn't the marines can't kill the onos, the problem is the onos comes out so fast that it is hard to actually react to the strategy, even if you scouted it out from the start (or just assume its happening like we all do now) a very good alien comm will have that onos out before you have your deadly weapons upgrades and jetpacks, and you sure as hell won't have dual exos.
This was more or less what I was thinking. If you had to choose weapons or the armor, which I suppose given the cost you would need to choose, than armor might be the best option simply because it allows your troops to actually empty their clip instead of being two-shot. It also buys the rest of the squad time to reload and maybe even get a second clip in. It would probably have a lot to do with which map you're playing on and which starting position you get. If there are plenty of big corridors or rooms? Probably weapons. If it's relatively cramped, armor might be the way to go.
The relative damage increase between W0 and W3 isn't terribly significant until you manage to empty an entire clip into the Onos or have more troops attacking. I honestly wonder if it doesn't even out to a wash as to which one does better, until player skill is factored in.
I was hoping there would be some sort of increased tres penalty for Onos eggs, maybe requiring Life-form Eggs to be researched at a second Hive?
The reality is, in NS2 at this point you really can't expect to kill the midgame onos immediately. You want to less so rely on outright killing the onos, and more so rely on denying the onos ability to kill you. Onos mostly die when they overcommit. They overcommit when they're desperate to do damage. The fewer marines in the field and valuable structures they can kill, the more desperate they become.
In terms of tools of the trade, shotguns do ok, AR is probably the best, and flame throwers are decent, GL is very bad against onos but good for clearing the gorges and skulks away from the onos making your jetpacks better against them. The big winner is when you can grab jetpacks, but even then, bad jetpacks tend to die pretty easily to onos, and there aren't a whole ton of players who are good jetpacks in pubs right now. There's no thing, like the jetpack HMG in NS1, where a good player with a JP HMG could very reliably 1v1 an onos and pretty much be better for every situation. Because there's no ideal tool, it's less about having the right gear, and more about treating the onos properly.
You just have to not get frustrated, and be aware that it's less that you can forcibly kill the onos, and more that you have to force the onos to make a mistake that kills itself. It's a psychological game. Do things to surprise the onos. Beacon jetpacks on top of him, let him run into a base and grab a dual exo just as he gets in. March dual exos across the map such that they show up in unexpected areas. As an onos, if I know how much crud is in the room, I basically never die. If I get surprised, that's when I get threatened. Don't worry too much if you can't immediately kill an onos. Onos costs a LOT, he has to do quite a bit of damage to justify his existence. Purely in kills he basically has to kill a whole marine team to be worth it. The happiest onos is the onos that can kill a base, but it's not too hard, if you're doing things right, to make that impossible. Keep an obs in every tech point you've got a comm chair and have a very itchy beacon finger ready. Don't let too much of your team go exo either. Exos are strong in direct combat with onos... but that actually makes them a bit generally weak to onos. If an exo is somewhere on the map, the onos wants to be somewhere else doing damage. Exo's can't phase, they can't beacon, while in transit they are basically useless. You should really only be getting exos when you have secured an area and need to attack an alien stronghold (either a repair station they've set up to try to kill one of your tech points, or directly into the alien hive).
So if you're looking for <b>the easy way</b> to kill an Onos you must: catch it alone, without other aliens nearby, far away from base, without the alien commander bone-walling, wiithout Stomp researched, with your entire team, all armed with LMGs, all with jet-packs, in an area without many avenues of escape, with an unobstructed line of sight, and have superb communication and focus.
Generally, what I think the problem is that the Onos demands too much attention to kill. This is its purpose and it does it well. This allows the rest of the aliens to freely attack the marines. Ignoring the Onos leads to it doing what its entire team would do otherwise, killing the marines. A small group of marines (2-3) is usually a tasty meal for the Onos, and it follows that multiple Onos can handle larger groups of marines with ease. Jet-packs help alleviate this issue, but the Onos still requires a ton of attention to kill. Exo-suits are supposed to fulfill this role for Marines, bringing incredible firepower to bear to force the aliens to attend to the Exo. However, due to its relative fragility and need to be welded 24/7 it also demands attention from the Marines. This is different from the Gorge, whose healing is usually used to decrease the time the Onos spends healing rather than just keeping it alive as is the case with the welder-Exo relationship. A Gorge can often eschew healing and bile-bomb instead, but welder-marine is often stuck just welding to keep the Exo alive. This doesn't even bring into the fact that a lone marines will almost never be able to kill an Onos; but that Exos are surprisingly vulnerable to Skulks, Fades, and bile-bomb.
As it stands now, the Marines have no effective way of killing the Onos. I believe this is intended, as I think UWE balances the games around small team matches where one Onos is dangerous but not insurmountable. This issue comes when the Onos comes before Marines have an adequate response (i.e. Early Onos) or when too many Onos are on the map at once. Both of these are symptomatic of larger games, although not limited to them. Ideally, marines should have some effective way of fighting Onos. However, right now they don't. I'm not really sure about how to go about fixing this without fundamentally altering the interaction in smaller games. Perhaps, a very high res cost rifle with incredibly high damage, a slow projectile speed, and a high fire-delay. I imagine it being effective against the Onos, but less effective against the more agile forms.
tl,dr - No <i>easy</i> way to kill Onos let alone mutliple Onos, which is working as intended. Marines need a way to combat the Onos, but without fundamentally changing the Onos role in smaller games.
U have to stand in the near of an abyss(like in Cave). ---> Say" put put put" to the Onos. ---> Onos is getting mad and charging u ---> jump away ---> onos falls into the depth. ---> hero of the day
Bad advice for pub games. If you don't start with robo factories and sentries, and get jetpacks before exos, you'll be ejected.
<!--quoteo(post=2025562:date=Nov 16 2012, 03:07 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 16 2012, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bad advice for pub games. If you don't start with robo factories and sentries, and get jetpacks before exos, you'll be ejected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't listen to your team demand exos and get them before armor or weapons 1.
I've yet to be ejected. Most players are thankfully willing to respect a commander right now, even if they don't quite understand what they're doing. Explain why you're doing something if someone really has a problem with it.
If someone says "comm, drop turrets at blah blah blah" I just explain "sorry, I need res for upgrades right now so we can kill the onos when he comes out"