Gorge Debate

DggMuffinDggMuffin Join Date: 2012-05-28 Member: 152684Members
edited November 2012 in Ideas and Suggestions
<div class="IPBDescription">A simple addition</div>Many people have said throughout the beta that they think they gorge is boring. It is definitely NOT bad, bile bomb and healing are great, but in between pushes you can't do a hell of a lot. Hydras and clogs can be used to defend key points, but they are always so weak and get overrun quite quickly. The biggest complaints I've seen have been that there are not enough structures available for the gorge to build.

I suggest a simple solution.

Upon upgrading crag/shade/shift, gorges can spend PRES to makes crags, shifts, and shades. This would allow gorges to further set up their own fortifications without having to constantly ask the commander to drop extra stuff to support them. I often find I am running low on energy trying to heal my hydras and the commander isn't listening to anybody. It would be great if I could drop a shift next to me (assuming we researched shift at the hive) and heal it up.

I don't think this would sway the balance of the game too much, and I think it would give the gorge a hell of a lot more to do and contribute as a "builder" class.

Love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.

Comments

  • arnyboy87arnyboy87 Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155551Members
    I like it +1 really no problem in a gorge doing it only problem well be balancing the pres amount (this would be very tricky) and I would say a limit would need to be placed also if you change back to another lifeform the crag,shift or shade dies as this could coz map spam.
  • LuminothLuminoth Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171739Members
    I don't know, compared to a marine, the gorge is pretty outstanding. I wish i could build some turrets with a marine too. So if you add all those building capabilities to the gorge it'll become pretty overpowered since beeing able to build hydras is what justifies it's weakness!

    The only way i could imagine your idea being implemented is if the commander would loose his abiity to build crags, shifts and shades (since he can't build hydras and clogs). That would make the gorge a more important evolution and make the commander more dependent on them, which wouldn't be that bad. Cause right know, what I experienced is that the alien commander plays alot by himself, ignoring gorges completely, being able to expand really fast without them. But that's a matter for another topic.
  • SiminiSimini Join Date: 2012-09-28 Member: 160916Members
    edited November 2012
    The Hydra and everything the Gorge currently has to offer is pitiful when facing up against a Grenade Launcher.

    I heard that the gorge is getting a few more new toys to play with, one of those toys is a tunnel that i believe will work like the teleport system the engi has in TF2.

    Pretty pumped for the future of NS2.
  • yehawmcgrawyehawmcgraw Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159694Members
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
  • GorgenapperGorgenapper Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I heard that the gorge is getting a few more new toys to play with, one of those toys is a tunnel that i believe will work like the teleport system the engi has in TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Gorgieporters?

    Where did you hear this?
  • Draco HoustonDraco Houston Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167145Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2025866:date=Nov 17 2012, 03:08 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Nov 17 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorgieporters?

    Where did you hear this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It has been said by UWE people during streams a few times now.
  • StubbsStubbs Join Date: 2005-01-27 Member: 38622Members
    I'd like to be able to make Whips as well for a more solid defence, even if it was limited to one per Gorge.
  • includeinclude aka RpTheHotrod Dallas, TX Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12027Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'd like them to be able to create mini-structures, such as smaller versions of crags and whatnot. They would have 50% reduced on what they do but could be built my Gorges.
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    By alowing gorges to make major structures that would allow aliens to advance way to fast.
  • LuminothLuminoth Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171739Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026021:date=Nov 16 2012, 07:21 PM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Nov 16 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By alowing gorges to make major structures that would allow aliens to advance way to fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree wich is allready a big problem compared with the marines expansion speed
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    the TF2 Engi is really not much different.
    He can make only a sentry dispensor and teleporter
    But he is vital unit to the game.

    Gorge Prevents quick rush by blocking choke points.
    Heals units and restores stamina
    Allows hives to quickly build
    Allows faster creation of forward bases

    Bile Bomb has a huge advantage by causing ovr time degradation and obscuring of vision of exosuit
    Suffice to say. Gorge is already a huge contributor in the war effort.


    So Essentially a Gorge is a Moving Marine Armory lab and Sentry turret and arc cannon in one packaged item.
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026021:date=Nov 16 2012, 08:21 PM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Nov 16 2012, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By alowing gorges to make major structures that would allow aliens to advance way to fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not an argument. Can you explain how and why?
  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
  • SaniKSaniK Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166850Members
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2026543:date=Nov 16 2012, 11:24 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 16 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not an argument. Can you explain how and why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Simply put its the fact a commander has to multi task which slows down the commander response time. By allowing gorges [essentially every alien] to build a structure. You are essentially allowing forward bases to be built in an instant. All the Alien commander has to do is blindly place cysts. and let 2 - 3 dedicated gorges just make a forward craig base. And let the aliens let loose.

    The alien commander can essentailly not even have to worry about multiple fronts anymore.
    Not to mention that alien structures build by them selves. Just place and forget.


    ----

    Then the marines are at a disadvantage. The marine commander not only has to look at multiple fronts for structures. Not only has to have a marine present to build a structure.
    Aliens can essentially push every direction instantly the second they get a craig hive up.

    ----

    The only way to justify this is if Arcs Turret moves 100 degrees a second and can target units plus structures. And fire 1 shot every 2 seconds.
    it would be reasonably balanced.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    edited November 2012
    i thought up the idea, (without think it through) about the gorge being used to transport clogs and hydras from the hive to wherever on the map, basically the commander creates special cyst like objects around the hive that a gorge can then eat and use as ammunition to place clogs/hydras, this means that 1 gorge can place more than 3 hydras but they cost team res for the commander to build and the gorge must transport them and can only do this 3 at a time. so upon spawning a gorge cnanot place hydras/clogs without first gonig to a hive and eating the "seeds" the commander has planted within the infestation. But this allows a gorge to place more than jsut 3 hydras and creates a form of cooperation between commander and gorge.


    i also thought up the idea of a gorge being able to "grow" a hydra upon his back giving him a passive ranged attack 0as a form of advanced upgrade.


    Also an advanced offensive structure that resmembles 1 stalk of a hydra but much larger, firing off rather slowly but hitting for the damage of 2 hydras and having the helath of a whip. Requiring 2 hives to construct.

    personally i enjoy the alien commander role and its the marine commander that is usually frustrating.
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    edited November 2012
    If we transfer all these commander roles to the gorge, why bother having a commander? It will be a boring and redundant role.

    Might as well get rid of the alien commander..................................which might be a good idea...
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    i suggest to make the gorge more interesting we should let it call in an air strike if you get a 4 kill streak
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2026643:date=Nov 17 2012, 06:57 AM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Nov 17 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply put its the fact a commander has to multi task which slows down the commander response time. By allowing gorges [essentially every alien] to build a structure. You are essentially allowing forward bases to be built in an instant. All the Alien commander has to do is blindly place cysts. and let 2 - 3 dedicated gorges just make a forward craig base. And let the aliens let loose.

    The alien commander can essentailly not even have to worry about multiple fronts anymore.
    Not to mention that alien structures build by them selves. Just place and forget.


    ----

    Then the marines are at a disadvantage. The marine commander not only has to look at multiple fronts for structures. Not only has to have a marine present to build a structure.
    Aliens can essentially push every direction instantly the second they get a craig hive up.

    ----

    The only way to justify this is if Arcs Turret moves 100 degrees a second and can target units plus structures. And fire 1 shot every 2 seconds.
    it would be reasonably balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Gorges would obviously only be able to build structures with their own pres. There is no way, alien expansion would be accelerated because the commander has access to way more res than an individual gorge and the commander has to unlock a techbranch before gorges can place the chambers themselfes.
    There is absolutly no increase in expansion speed compared to a good team, where the commander tells a gorge where to go and heal up buildings at a certain location.
  • SoruzSoruz Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 164885Members
    I'm not seeing the need for gorges to be able to build their own crags. Requiring the Khammder to help with the defence is a very important aspect. Otherwise its all just cyst chaining.

    In addition, I think the role of the gorge is not to make impenetrable fortresses... its to make simple obstacles that increase the force requirement for a breach. If you are confronted by a marine with a GL, then you are suffering from Rock Paper Scissors. If its a single basic marine, (or if its a good gorge, 2 marines), then they are subject to RPS.

    Forts should always require a similar, though slightly smaller, investment of players and resources by the aliens to repel assaults. The ideology of players defending rather than automating defence is seen in all aspects of NS2.
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026806:date=Nov 17 2012, 07:46 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 17 2012, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges would obviously only be able to build structures with their own pres. There is no way, alien expansion would be accelerated because the commander has access to way more res than an individual gorge and the commander has to unlock a techbranch before gorges can place the chambers themselfes.
    There is absolutly no increase in expansion speed compared to a good team, where the commander tells a gorge where to go and heal up buildings at a certain location.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



    All Commander has to do is place the cysts. Across the entire map. The commander would not have to think or dedicate anything else besides placing cysts everywhere.
    Meaning all an alien would then have to do is go to a forward area and setup shop. You have 3 - 4 gorges.

    1. The Buildings are no longer tied to the Team Resource Pool. Meaning more buildings faster [Pretty MASSSIVE disadvantage for Humans] Ill put it simply. All an alien commander has to do is now "Research it" Meaning what? I research it, and you place it. Which means what? Alien commander does not have to spend resource on the building. Means what? Aliens commander is now free to spend resource on upgrades instead of infrastructure cost? Means what? Aliens upgrade at a rate much faster? Means what? Aliens become much more powerful quickly.

    What you are not realizing is the infrastructure cost that the alien commander spends can now be shifted to improving aliens even more.
    You essentially need a gorge to win, but by allowing a gorge to use his resoures to help the team upgrade faster, is pushing aliens too much.

    Humans would need a massive compensation to make this balanced.
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    Aliens have 3-4 gorges. Means what? There are less skulks around. Means what? Marines can cap and hold more rts. Means what? Marines get tech earlier and your alien advantage is negated.
    Morover if players spend their res on structures they cant evolve into higher lifeforms.

    What you dont seem to be realising is that a common alien strategy is rush onos egg and build no buildings whatsoever.
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    edited November 2012
    People can drop structures and change back to skulk.
    Considering there is already 1 - 3 gorges in every game. Makes your point pretty pointless.

    Your point would have relevance only if no one played skulk, and structures died when the gorge dies.
    Since you always have gorges, - and structures don't disappear.

    It only means, you are buffing alien race. With no difference to Marine.
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    So you save up 20 res, go gorge, build a shade and morph back to skulk. That effectively wastes 10 res compared to letting the comm drop the shade. Whats the point in it? If anything, this slows down aliens.
    Since you dont understand that if players sacrifice their pres to build structures, they wont be able to get higher lifeforms, your point seems pretty pointless.
  • DanielDDanielD Join Date: 2010-11-16 Member: 74960Members
    I see lots of people playing gorge, if even more people liked it there'd be not enough skulks. Seems fine to me.

    Additionally, balancing shifts being dropped by gorges early game would be extremely difficult.
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