<!--quoteo(post=2025847:date=Nov 16 2012, 11:50 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 16 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it was the only mistake they made all game long. They should have won but lost. pokemasters won by default not by skill or strategy. This is why its bad. You can say it was a mistake but it still doesn't take away that poke gets a free win. Its pretty dumb that an alien team can even do this to themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes no sense to me. It's a game a chess. You can make a bad move/decision and lose.
In every strategy game known to man, you can make a bad move and lose. The more you "fix" the ways in which a team can lose the closer you come to a boring 1 strategy method of wining.
*edit Wow... It appears that include and I are on the same wavelength here.
<!--quoteo(post=2025855:date=Nov 16 2012, 08:59 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 16 2012, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A team is reduced to 1 Hive 0 RTs and nothing but Skulks and you say they made no mistakes? Really? They literally didn't have a single thing to their names other than a bank of res to drop some blind undefended hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strategy wise they didn't ill till res locking themselves. We just killed them. The point stands that I played in this game and after we won it didn't feel like we should have won. We didn't do anything strategically to put us on top. Being able to res lock yourself is silly and I don't like it.
Don't like being Resource Locked? Don't spend all of your resources and then fail to defend your harvesters. This is about as dumb as a Com spending all his money on Proto Labs and not being able to afford a Beacon; you screwed up your resources and paid the price. Working as intended.
<!--quoteo(post=2025870:date=Nov 16 2012, 09:12 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't like being Resource Locked? Don't spend all of your resources and then fail to defend your harvesters. This is about as dumb as a Com spending all his money on Proto Labs and not being able to afford a Beacon; you screwed up your resources and paid the price. Working as intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if that's the case then the game should just end when a team becomes res locked. Because its already over anyways.
I'm actually rather surprised that this hasn't been discussed in this thread, but these are the facts of the game that caused this thread:
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another. 2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map. 3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2025867:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:08 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 16 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strategy wise they didn't ill till res locking themselves. We just killed them. The point stands that I played in this game and after we won it didn't feel like we should have won. We didn't do anything strategically to put us on top. Being able to res lock yourself is silly and I don't like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you feel about the Marine commander being able to sell his IP's and let his team die? I know I am being ridiculous, the point being the Marine commander can make a dumb decision and lose a game. I don't see how an alien commander should be any different.
In order to get res locked, you have to lose EVERY res node, including the one in your reaming hive. If this happens you have already been defeated, there is no point in an additional res boost so that you can delay the game another 2 mins by dropping a useless res node somewhere else on the map.
I realize that your match felt cheap, but that is because THEIR commander and THEIR team lost the game not by you overpowering them but by them making a huge mistake. I'm sure it would have been more enjoyable to play a longer match with the NS world watching, but that is not what happened.
Personally I think that one of the this games great strengths is the unpredictable. Like a strong team making a dumb decision and allowing an unlikely victory.
<!--quoteo(post=2025876:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:17 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 16 2012, 12:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well if that's the case then the game should just end when a team becomes res locked. Because its already over anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what f4 is for.
<!--quoteo(post=2025877:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm actually rather surprised that this hasn't been discussed in this thread, but these are the facts of the game that caused this thread:
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another. 2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map. 3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien team didn't outplay marine team. The game is about controlling resources. If you fail to do that, like losing all your harvesters, you're not outplaying anyone, you're being outplayed.
<!--quoteo(post=2025877:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm actually rather surprised that this hasn't been discussed in this thread, but these are the facts of the game that caused this thread:
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another. 2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map. 3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Marines and Aliens were never meant to have the same viable strategies. Everyone knows that aliens cannot sell their upgrades. With that in mind, protecting your res pool needs to be a higher priority than it is for the marines. On the other hand, getting res nodes is much easier for the Aliens, so it should even itself out if the commander is paying attention.
<!--quoteo(post=2025878:date=Nov 16 2012, 09:18 AM:name=Superfly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Superfly @ Nov 16 2012, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you feel about the Marine commander being able to sell his IP's and let his team die? I know I am being ridiculous, the point being the Marine commander can make a dumb decision and lose a game. I don't see how an alien commander should be any different.
In order to get res locked, you have to lose EVERY res node, including the one in your reaming hive. If this happens you have already been defeated, there is no point in an additional res boost so that you can delay the game another 2 mins by dropping a useless res node somewhere else on the map.
I realize that your match felt cheap, but that is because THEIR commander and THEIR team lost the game not by you overpowering them but by them making a huge mistake. I'm sure it would have been more enjoyable to play a longer match with the NS world watching, but that is not what happened.
Personally I think that one of the this games great strengths is the unpredictable. Like a strong team making a dumb decision and allowing an unlikely victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I really don't like marine commander selling the ips to end the game. I find it rather lame to just give up like this. But anyways im 99% sure if res for kill was in the game at the time archaea would of overcome there mistake and won the game. They pretty much had us stuck in our base with the insane pressure.
I like Archaea as a team, and I think they do a great job, but the notion of being able to make up for all your strategic misteps by killing enough people is laughable. The whole point of strategy is that it matters.
<!--quoteo(post=2025888:date=Nov 16 2012, 09:28 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then it's a good thing RFK isn't in.
I like Archaea as a team, and I think they do a great job, but the notion of being able to make up for all your strategic misteps by killing enough people is laughable. The whole point of strategy is that it matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know that's why I find it dumb that you can win a game just because of the other team ###### up and you just not ###### up. But i guess that's the strategy you people like.
<!--quoteo(post=2025886:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:26 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 16 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually I really don't like marine commander selling the ips to end the game. I find it rather lame to just give up like this. But anyways im 99% sure if res for kill was in the game at the time archaea would of overcome there mistake and won the game. They pretty much had us stuck in our base with the insane pressure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't dispute that for a second.
What I am afraid of is that if the UWE begins making changes based on losing strategies then NS comes one step closer to the next run of the mill FPS. I view res-locking as a viable method to choke out the other (sometimes stronger) team. In your case I understand that your team was not trying to do this on purpose which made it feel cheap. However, you very well could have done this and legitimately one the game this way.
All I am trying to point out is that as people get better at commanding they will pay more attention to the environment around them and losing via bad decision making will become less common. Once this happens strategies like res-locking will become an interesting method to fight back at a superior team.
I like trying to res lock the aliens.... But have also been on the receiving end where I have dropped 2nd hive on 2 RTs after having lost an rt already(who waits for 50res to drop a hive?) all of a sudden my last 2 RTs go down an nobody on my team deals like defending. I'm ok with saying GG but I also wouldn't mind recycling my early celerity spur to get an rt back up and see if we can still hang in the game.
If you did institute a "recycle". I'd like to see a digestion cloud which breaks down any structure in range and gives ou back 75%. It should cost 3res....
<!--quoteo(post=2025650:date=Nov 16 2012, 08:05 AM:name=|R18|Zerg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|R18|Zerg @ Nov 16 2012, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We killed their exo rush as skulks, and cleared them off the map, then pinned them in crossroads, then.... could do nothing.. res-lock.
Doesn't make sense, our comm jumped out and RQ after realising what he'd done, seems unfair to punsih us for turning the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2025880:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 16 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien team didn't outplay marine team. The game is about controlling resources. If you fail to do that, like losing all your harvesters, you're not outplaying anyone, you're being outplayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they were able to pin the entire enemy team in crossroads on no res and killed all their exos, I'd say they got outplayed and the marines that killed the harvesters got lucky. You should not win a game because you are lucky.
<!--quoteo(post=2025894:date=Nov 16 2012, 01:33 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 16 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know that's why I find it dumb that you can win a game just because of the other team ###### up and you just not ###### up. But i guess that's the strategy you people like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But... In your example the Pokemasters strategy did work. They killed all the harvesters which reduced the res income of Archea. Unless you're suggesting that killing the res nodes was done unintentionally and wasn't at all intended.
Regardless of how much pressure one team is putting out, if that team messes up and lets someone go around killing everything they own and then spends all the resources they have left... Well, that would be called a fail. Archea is an epic team, but as a result of inattentiveness or whatever they miss-stepped.
In terms of strategy it would be like massing a unit that only hits ground units (skulks pushing poke back to their base), when your opponent has only air units (has killed all your resource nodes). Both situations are a result of situational awareness, and both result in a loss.
<!--quoteo(post=2025905:date=Nov 16 2012, 01:36 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they were able to pin the entire enemy team in crossroads on no res and killed all their exos, I'd say they got outplayed and the marines that killed the harvesters got lucky. You should not win a game because you are lucky.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the other team doesn't get any credit for wiping out the alien infrastructure? The commander failing to notice something critical like losing all the res nodes is a major thing. I honestly feel the marines should be able to fall into the same situation. Recycling fits the theme of the marines much better than aliens, but it allows for one side to recover from such a huge blunder.
<!--quoteo(post=2025913:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:42 PM:name=Wormeck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wormeck @ Nov 16 2012, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the other team doesn't get any credit for wiping out the alien infrastructure? The commander failing to notice something critical like losing all the res nodes is a major thing. I honestly feel the marines should be able to fall into the same situation. Recycling fits the theme of the marines much better than aliens, but it allows for one side to recover from such a huge blunder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree completely, and this is the point I was trying to make, if not as clearly as I had thought.
<!--quoteo(post=2025913:date=Nov 16 2012, 09:42 AM:name=Wormeck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wormeck @ Nov 16 2012, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the other team doesn't get any credit for wiping out the alien infrastructure? The commander failing to notice something critical like losing all the res nodes is a major thing. I honestly feel the marines should be able to fall into the same situation. Recycling fits the theme of the marines much better than aliens, but it allows for one side to recover from such a huge blunder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think a team should be completely screwed because of a mistake like this. For sure they should be at a massive disadvantage. But there should always be a way to comeback unless the other team just out right kills you and your base.
<!--quoteo(post=2025877:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm actually rather surprised that this hasn't been discussed in this thread, but these are the facts of the game that caused this thread:
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another. 2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map. 3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with that, a marine team with zero res is going to have a really hard time pushing a hive, especially if the aliens have lifeforms remaining. No replacing JPs/Exos or guns that fall in the hive area, no med/ammo support, no new phase gates etc... How are they even going to keep the aliens contained?
<!--quoteo(post=2025905:date=Nov 16 2012, 01:36 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they were able to pin the entire enemy team in crossroads on no res and killed all their exos, I'd say they got outplayed and the marines that killed the harvesters got lucky. You should not win a game because you are lucky.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't say that an alien comm who loses all his harvesters is unlucky (which is what you imply by saying that the marines were 'lucky' to achieve this...).
Instead, that alien comm has made a bad, bad error and here's the rub - if a marine comm makes a similarly stupid decision, the marines will also VERY LIKELY lose the game too.
I did it very early on as Khamm, to my shame. We lost that game because of MY BAD COMMING, not because of bad luck, or because the marines were lucky, or because of a design flaw... It was 100% my fault, and you know what? I got over it, I've learned and that is only a good thing. (In my defence, I had to jump in the chair as a total newbie after the original comm dropped out through a crash, and I didn't review what we had properly).
One of the great things about this game is that there are so many things you do need to learn, and that keeps it interesting from both the FPS and RTS perspectives. I'm really glad about that game I lost: I'm now acutely aware of the need to keep tight control of res and I'm a much better comm now as a result (I'm still awful and have a lot to learn, but thankfully teamplay and positive communication seem to help me to more wins than losses!). I also now have a much better appreciation of how to play as marines as a result of that loss! So, yeah, I reckon that one bad alien loss has given me a lot more wins than I would otherwise have got because I learned a lot! :)
<!--quoteo(post=2025926:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:53 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 16 2012, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't say that an alien comm who loses all his harvesters is unlucky (which is what you imply by saying that the marines were 'lucky' to achieve this...).
Instead, that alien comm has made a bad, bad error and here's the rub - if a marine comm makes a similarly stupid decision, the marines will also VERY LIKELY lose the game too.
I did it very early on as Khamm, to my shame. We lost that game because of MY BAD COMMING, not because of bad luck, or because the marines were lucky, or because of a design flaw... It was 100% my fault, and you know what? I got over it, I've learned and that is only a good thing. (In my defence, I had to jump in the chair as a total newbie after the original comm dropped out through a crash, and I didn't review what we had properly).
One of the great things about this game is that there are so many things you do need to learn, and that keeps it interesting from both the FPS and RTS perspectives. I'm really glad about that game I lost: I'm now acutely aware of the need to keep tight control of res and I'm a much better comm now as a result (I'm still awful and have a lot to learn, but thankfully teamplay and positive communication seem to help me to more wins than losses!). I also now have a much better appreciation of how to play as marines as a result of that loss! So, yeah, I reckon that one bad alien loss has given me a lot more wins than I would otherwise have got because I learned a lot! :)
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone didn't read #1 of my post.
<!--quoteo(post=2025923:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:51 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 16 2012, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree with that, a marine team with zero res is going to have a really hard time pushing a hive, especially if the aliens have lifeforms remaining. No replacing JPs/Exos or guns that fall in the hive area, no med/ammo support, no new phase gates etc... How are they even going to keep the aliens contained?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game in question had a marine team turtling on one base, which the aliens could not push. If the marines were in that situation, with no res, simply recycling one of any of the following buildings would give them enough res to build an extractor: Command Station, Robotics Factory, Arms Lab, Observatory, Phase Gate, Prototype Lab. They would then be on equal ground regarding resource towers. Furthermore, aliens do not fare very well defending against an all out marine push. Especially when on only one hive (no bile, blink, spores, or leap, and only one type of support structure can be build). A hive itself can be taken down by three marines, one chopping and the other two just killing eggs. Also, pushing the hive for immediate victory isn't what matters.
The only thing the marines would need to do is ensure the aliens couldn't expand (this means denying cysts) while they got extractors back up to reestablish res flow. Whereas aliens simply lose regardless of the contain they established.
<!--quoteo(post=2025922:date=Nov 16 2012, 07:50 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 16 2012, 07:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think a team should be completely screwed because of a mistake like this. For sure they should be at a massive disadvantage. But there should always be a way to comeback unless the other team just out right kills you and your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait wait wait... There should always be a way to comeback from a losing game? But there is! You did exactly this. It looked like you lose and than ARC made a mistake and you could win. It was surprising and refreshing to see another outcome than 90% of the games. Mistakes like this make it unbelievable fun and interesting for the people that watch this match. Just hear how excited Hugh got. Don't you understand the slightest from story-telling? It is only interesting when there are surprises. And the possibility of res-locking is a wonderful source of surprises. I mean, it's not that it happens in every tenth match.
What you want is just boring. It's as if you are dissatisfied that Frodo turned the tight in LotR instead of a 3rd giant battle with 2 armies that fight till one is left. Hes so imba this Frodo. ;)
If aliens ever get res locked its GG all rines have to do is turtle and tech up, since aliens can't break turtle without higher Lifeforms the the rines can turtle indefinitely until they get 3/3 and expand to another base.... .
<!--quoteo(post=2025961:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:22 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 16 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it comes down to rines ability to turtle
If aliens ever get res locked its GG all rines have to do is turtle and tech up, since aliens can't break turtle without higher Lifeforms the the rines can turtle indefinitely until they get 3/3 and expand to another base.... .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No good team is defeated by a Marine turtle. The only reason it happens in pubs is because they're so disorganized.
<!--quoteo(post=2025968:date=Nov 16 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Toastie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toastie @ Nov 16 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Res locking is an AWESOME way to win, adds more variety to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it can only happen to one team.
And to preempt the argument that it can happen to marines:
If you have no extractors and you don't have a building to recycle to build a new one, then you don't have a base and have already lost for reasons other than res lock.
<!--quoteo(post=2025974:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:32 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it can only happen to one team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, just like IP sniping can only happen to one team, and losing power in base can only happen to one team.
<!--quoteo(post=2025979:date=Nov 16 2012, 01:34 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, just like IP sniping can only happen to one team, and losing power in base can only happen to one team.
Asymmetry doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, yes, but you forget egg lock. While not exactly the same, they are a similar mechanic: preventing the enemy from spawning. And the power issue is a similar mechanic to the cysts, as marines' buildings cannot function without power, alien structures die without cysts. Also, I have not said anything regarding balance in any of my posts, nor have I suggested anything be changed. I am merely pointing out a difference and I myself suggested that it may be an intended asymmetry.
Comments
This makes no sense to me. It's a game a chess. You can make a bad move/decision and lose.
In every strategy game known to man, you can make a bad move and lose. The more you "fix" the ways in which a team can lose the closer you come to a boring 1 strategy method of wining.
*edit
Wow... It appears that include and I are on the same wavelength here.
Strategy wise they didn't ill till res locking themselves. We just killed them. The point stands that I played in this game and after we won it didn't feel like we should have won. We didn't do anything strategically to put us on top. Being able to res lock yourself is silly and I don't like it.
Well if that's the case then the game should just end when a team becomes res locked. Because its already over anyways.
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another.
2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map.
3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.
How do you feel about the Marine commander being able to sell his IP's and let his team die? I know I am being ridiculous, the point being the Marine commander can make a dumb decision and lose a game. I don't see how an alien commander should be any different.
In order to get res locked, you have to lose EVERY res node, including the one in your reaming hive. If this happens you have already been defeated, there is no point in an additional res boost so that you can delay the game another 2 mins by dropping a useless res node somewhere else on the map.
I realize that your match felt cheap, but that is because THEIR commander and THEIR team lost the game not by you overpowering them but by them making a huge mistake. I'm sure it would have been more enjoyable to play a longer match with the NS world watching, but that is not what happened.
Personally I think that one of the this games great strengths is the unpredictable. Like a strong team making a dumb decision and allowing an unlikely victory.
That's what f4 is for.
<!--quoteo(post=2025877:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm actually rather surprised that this hasn't been discussed in this thread, but these are the facts of the game that caused this thread:
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another.
2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map.
3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien team didn't outplay marine team. The game is about controlling resources. If you fail to do that, like losing all your harvesters, you're not outplaying anyone, you're being outplayed.
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another.
2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map.
3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Marines and Aliens were never meant to have the same viable strategies. Everyone knows that aliens cannot sell their upgrades. With that in mind, protecting your res pool needs to be a higher priority than it is for the marines. On the other hand, getting res nodes is much easier for the Aliens, so it should even itself out if the commander is paying attention.
In order to get res locked, you have to lose EVERY res node, including the one in your reaming hive. If this happens you have already been defeated, there is no point in an additional res boost so that you can delay the game another 2 mins by dropping a useless res node somewhere else on the map.
I realize that your match felt cheap, but that is because THEIR commander and THEIR team lost the game not by you overpowering them but by them making a huge mistake. I'm sure it would have been more enjoyable to play a longer match with the NS world watching, but that is not what happened.
Personally I think that one of the this games great strengths is the unpredictable. Like a strong team making a dumb decision and allowing an unlikely victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I really don't like marine commander selling the ips to end the game. I find it rather lame to just give up like this. But anyways im 99% sure if res for kill was in the game at the time archaea would of overcome there mistake and won the game. They pretty much had us stuck in our base with the insane pressure.
I like Archaea as a team, and I think they do a great job, but the notion of being able to make up for all your strategic misteps by killing enough people is laughable. The whole point of strategy is that it matters.
I like Archaea as a team, and I think they do a great job, but the notion of being able to make up for all your strategic misteps by killing enough people is laughable. The whole point of strategy is that it matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know that's why I find it dumb that you can win a game just because of the other team ###### up and you just not ###### up. But i guess that's the strategy you people like.
I don't dispute that for a second.
What I am afraid of is that if the UWE begins making changes based on losing strategies then NS comes one step closer to the next run of the mill FPS. I view res-locking as a viable method to choke out the other (sometimes stronger) team. In your case I understand that your team was not trying to do this on purpose which made it feel cheap. However, you very well could have done this and legitimately one the game this way.
All I am trying to point out is that as people get better at commanding they will pay more attention to the environment around them and losing via bad decision making will become less common. Once this happens strategies like res-locking will become an interesting method to fight back at a superior team.
If you did institute a "recycle". I'd like to see a digestion cloud which breaks down any structure in range and gives ou back 75%. It should cost 3res....
Doesn't make sense, our comm jumped out and RQ after realising what he'd done, seems unfair to punsih us for turning the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2025880:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 16 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien team didn't outplay marine team. The game is about controlling resources. If you fail to do that, like losing all your harvesters, you're not outplaying anyone, you're being outplayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they were able to pin the entire enemy team in crossroads on no res and killed all their exos, I'd say they got outplayed and the marines that killed the harvesters got lucky. You should not win a game because you are lucky.
But... In your example the Pokemasters strategy did work. They killed all the harvesters which reduced the res income of Archea. Unless you're suggesting that killing the res nodes was done unintentionally and wasn't at all intended.
Regardless of how much pressure one team is putting out, if that team messes up and lets someone go around killing everything they own and then spends all the resources they have left... Well, that would be called a fail. Archea is an epic team, but as a result of inattentiveness or whatever they miss-stepped.
In terms of strategy it would be like massing a unit that only hits ground units (skulks pushing poke back to their base), when your opponent has only air units (has killed all your resource nodes). Both situations are a result of situational awareness, and both result in a loss.
So the other team doesn't get any credit for wiping out the alien infrastructure? The commander failing to notice something critical like losing all the res nodes is a major thing. I honestly feel the marines should be able to fall into the same situation. Recycling fits the theme of the marines much better than aliens, but it allows for one side to recover from such a huge blunder.
I agree completely, and this is the point I was trying to make, if not as clearly as I had thought.
I don't think a team should be completely screwed because of a mistake like this. For sure they should be at a massive disadvantage. But there should always be a way to comeback unless the other team just out right kills you and your base.
1. Alien comm made a critical mistake and lost all harvesters without enough res to make another.
2. Alien team however outplayed the marine team completely, taking nearly the entirety of the map.
3. Due to #1, marines turtled their way to victory.
Now, I'm not debating anything regarding these facts I'd just like to add one of my own.
4. Had #1 happened to the marines instead of the aliens, they would have won, easily.
I think this is the issue that should be discussed here, not the fact that the alien commander made a serious error, but the fact that were it a marine mistake, all would have been fine. This may be an intended asymmetry of the game, but a mistake of this magnitude is much more forgiving to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with that, a marine team with zero res is going to have a really hard time pushing a hive, especially if the aliens have lifeforms remaining. No replacing JPs/Exos or guns that fall in the hive area, no med/ammo support, no new phase gates etc... How are they even going to keep the aliens contained?
You can't say that an alien comm who loses all his harvesters is unlucky (which is what you imply by saying that the marines were 'lucky' to achieve this...).
Instead, that alien comm has made a bad, bad error and here's the rub - if a marine comm makes a similarly stupid decision, the marines will also VERY LIKELY lose the game too.
I did it very early on as Khamm, to my shame. We lost that game because of MY BAD COMMING, not because of bad luck, or because the marines were lucky, or because of a design flaw... It was 100% my fault, and you know what? I got over it, I've learned and that is only a good thing. (In my defence, I had to jump in the chair as a total newbie after the original comm dropped out through a crash, and I didn't review what we had properly).
One of the great things about this game is that there are so many things you do need to learn, and that keeps it interesting from both the FPS and RTS perspectives. I'm really glad about that game I lost: I'm now acutely aware of the need to keep tight control of res and I'm a much better comm now as a result (I'm still awful and have a lot to learn, but thankfully teamplay and positive communication seem to help me to more wins than losses!). I also now have a much better appreciation of how to play as marines as a result of that loss! So, yeah, I reckon that one bad alien loss has given me a lot more wins than I would otherwise have got because I learned a lot! :)
Roo
Instead, that alien comm has made a bad, bad error and here's the rub - if a marine comm makes a similarly stupid decision, the marines will also VERY LIKELY lose the game too.
I did it very early on as Khamm, to my shame. We lost that game because of MY BAD COMMING, not because of bad luck, or because the marines were lucky, or because of a design flaw... It was 100% my fault, and you know what? I got over it, I've learned and that is only a good thing. (In my defence, I had to jump in the chair as a total newbie after the original comm dropped out through a crash, and I didn't review what we had properly).
One of the great things about this game is that there are so many things you do need to learn, and that keeps it interesting from both the FPS and RTS perspectives. I'm really glad about that game I lost: I'm now acutely aware of the need to keep tight control of res and I'm a much better comm now as a result (I'm still awful and have a lot to learn, but thankfully teamplay and positive communication seem to help me to more wins than losses!). I also now have a much better appreciation of how to play as marines as a result of that loss! So, yeah, I reckon that one bad alien loss has given me a lot more wins than I would otherwise have got because I learned a lot! :)
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone didn't read #1 of my post.
<!--quoteo(post=2025923:date=Nov 16 2012, 12:51 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 16 2012, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree with that, a marine team with zero res is going to have a really hard time pushing a hive, especially if the aliens have lifeforms remaining. No replacing JPs/Exos or guns that fall in the hive area, no med/ammo support, no new phase gates etc... How are they even going to keep the aliens contained?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game in question had a marine team turtling on one base, which the aliens could not push. If the marines were in that situation, with no res, simply recycling one of any of the following buildings would give them enough res to build an extractor: Command Station, Robotics Factory, Arms Lab, Observatory, Phase Gate, Prototype Lab. They would then be on equal ground regarding resource towers. Furthermore, aliens do not fare very well defending against an all out marine push. Especially when on only one hive (no bile, blink, spores, or leap, and only one type of support structure can be build). A hive itself can be taken down by three marines, one chopping and the other two just killing eggs. Also, pushing the hive for immediate victory isn't what matters.
The only thing the marines would need to do is ensure the aliens couldn't expand (this means denying cysts) while they got extractors back up to reestablish res flow. Whereas aliens simply lose regardless of the contain they established.
Wait wait wait... There should always be a way to comeback from a losing game? But there is! You did exactly this. It looked like you lose and than ARC made a mistake and you could win. It was surprising and refreshing to see another outcome than 90% of the games. Mistakes like this make it unbelievable fun and interesting for the people that watch this match. Just hear how excited Hugh got.
Don't you understand the slightest from story-telling? It is only interesting when there are surprises. And the possibility of res-locking is a wonderful source of surprises. I mean, it's not that it happens in every tenth match.
What you want is just boring. It's as if you are dissatisfied that Frodo turned the tight in LotR instead of a 3rd giant battle with 2 armies that fight till one is left. Hes so imba this Frodo. ;)
If aliens ever get res locked its GG all rines have to do is turtle and tech up, since aliens can't break turtle without higher Lifeforms the the rines can turtle indefinitely until they get 3/3 and expand to another base.... .
If aliens ever get res locked its GG all rines have to do is turtle and tech up, since aliens can't break turtle without higher Lifeforms the the rines can turtle indefinitely until they get 3/3 and expand to another base.... .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No good team is defeated by a Marine turtle. The only reason it happens in pubs is because they're so disorganized.
But it can only happen to one team.
And to preempt the argument that it can happen to marines:
If you have no extractors and you don't have a building to recycle to build a new one, then you don't have a base and have already lost for reasons other than res lock.
Right, just like IP sniping can only happen to one team, and losing power in base can only happen to one team.
Asymmetry doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.
Asymmetry doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, yes, but you forget egg lock. While not exactly the same, they are a similar mechanic: preventing the enemy from spawning. And the power issue is a similar mechanic to the cysts, as marines' buildings cannot function without power, alien structures die without cysts. Also, I have not said anything regarding balance in any of my posts, nor have I suggested anything be changed. I am merely pointing out a difference and I myself suggested that it may be an intended asymmetry.