<!--quoteo(post=2025671:date=Nov 16 2012, 08:30 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 16 2012, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->zerg is a flaw in the gameplay. UWE <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->shouldn't<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> have res locking. not much else you can say.
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Language please! -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why, every other RTS has res locking?
<!--quoteo(post=2025979:date=Nov 16 2012, 11:34 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, just like IP sniping can only happen to one team, and losing power in base can only happen to one team.
Asymmetry doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2026059:date=Nov 16 2012, 03:18 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Nov 16 2012, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you.
It's absolutely moronic this is even a debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. This thread has raised some interesting questions. You have a team that gained map control and a established a contain, yet lost it's harvesters, and a team that sacrificed that map control so that a few lone Rambos could kill those harvesters. Now I believe that the better team should be the winning team, this is my definition of balance. When applied to this situation, one team clearly had the upper hand, but gradually lost it because of res lock. The debate in this situation relies upon your performance metric for what makes a 'better' team. The obvious archetypes here are the more mechanically skilled players who were able to overpower and contain their enemy (aliens) and the more strategic minded players who destroyed vital assets, but compromised their own positioning (marines). To answer which team is better, one cannot ignore the context of the game itself, for you cannot be better than someone at chess while ignoring chess in your argument. When analyzing these teams in reversed roles (marines losing all extractors and having an alien contain), the probable victor is not the same team that won in the previous situation. This is something that is particularly interesting, and I feel is worth discussion.
I think maybe the ASSYMMETRY of most aspects of the game play could do with being 'branded' somehow, or at least more over officiated by UWE, maybe being mentioned more in their press releases, review briefs, interviews etc.
Tell me if I'm wrong but it's INTENTIONAL that one team can res harras via rambos whilst the other is better suited to an attrittional warfare model. The great thing is, we *can* do the opposite ingame too, but with assymmetrical difficulty.
This is precisely what's perplexing about it, you have marines behaving essentially like skulks, and by virtue of asymmetrical nuance are successful. I would not think that the efficacy of marine Rambo harass is an intended asymmetry. They even say in their tutorials that a lone marine is a dead marine. On the note of attrition, this is something that is discussed at length in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124205&st=20&p=2019599&#entry2019599" target="_blank">this thread</a>, and that post in particular I think sums it up quite nicely. The nature of just throwing away skulks as cannon fodder doesn't come into play until later in the game. What's even more interesting about this particular game is that even after the enemy had exosuits they were still able to take them out with skulks and contain the enemy on one base. This to me is evidence of superior mechanical skill, and I'm sure for them it felt like they lost to the game itself, and not the other team.
I made a topic about this very issue the first time it happened to me. Marines simply can not be resource locked unless they have already lost the game. They can always recycle a building to build a new resource node. If they have no buildings to recycle to rebuild a node, there's no chance they'll win anyway.
Aliens, however, can do absolutely nothing if they have lost all their resource nodes. Even if the individual skulks are far better players, which they are if they're taking out teams of Exos, they have very little chance of winning if they get resource locked. It needlessly stretches out the game. If a team gets resource locked, the round should end.
There is also absolutely no reason why it's 'balanced' this way. It's counter-intuitive and is simply not fun to play when this happens. A base rush is your only chance, and suicide-rushing a Marines base over and over again removes any 'fun' in a hybrid RTS/FPS game. Especially when it's impossible to level the playing field without even the chance at a higher life form.
The other big problem is that it can happen with any number of hives, at any point in the game. It's harder late-game, certainly, but still possible. As a 'winning' strategm, it is simply not fun for anyone involved except the inevitable Exo's that can march right into a hive without any worry about anything other than skulks being there. A single grenade launcher can protect an Exo from an infinite amount of skulks in this situation, so why not just end things then and there? The level of play from skulks to beat the Marines when resource locked is simply unrealistic. Not to mention that no 'winning' strategy should rely on the other team making a bone-headed mistake that's easily corrected by the other team if roles were reversed. You can't resource lock the other team on purpose, it can only happen through a mistake, which means it <i>isn't even a skill-based tactic.</i> It's an accident, or luck, pure and simple.
To those saying it opens up more stratagems to win, well you're right it does. Only for one team. There is no comparable way for the Aliens team to win in such a fashion. They are <i>required</i> to clear the Marines off the map, and there is no way to limit their tech without an active, continued push to do so. Marines that have resource locked the aliens team can kick back, take their time, and do <i>literally anything they want</i>. A single turret battery can protect a Marines primary base with minimal cover. The point is that the Marines don't have anything to worry about once they have resource locked the Aliens. Nothing. Skulks are laughable to high-tech Marines, and unless you can kill the Marines base (or bases, which really means the Aliens can't win.) right off the bat after realizing your resource locked it's a hopeless uphill battle that can stretch out for as long as the Marines feel like milking it.
Does it happen often? No. Is it complete horse #%&* when it happens? Yes.
<!--quoteo(post=2026085:date=Nov 16 2012, 03:44 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not necessarily. This thread has raised some interesting questions. You have a team that gained map control and a established a contain, yet lost it's harvesters, and a team that sacrificed that map control so that a few lone Rambos could kill those harvesters. Now I believe that the better team should be the winning team, this is my definition of balance. When applied to this situation, one team clearly had the upper hand, but gradually lost it because of res lock. The debate in this situation relies upon your performance metric for what makes a 'better' team. The obvious archetypes here are the more mechanically skilled players who were able to overpower and contain their enemy (aliens) and the more strategic minded players who destroyed vital assets, but compromised their own positioning (marines). To answer which team is better, one cannot ignore the context of the game itself, for you cannot be better than someone at chess while ignoring chess in your argument. When analyzing these teams in reversed roles (marines losing all extractors and having an alien contain), the probable victor is not the same team that won in the previous situation. This is something that is particularly interesting, and I feel is worth discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The better team is the team that can protect it's resource flow and destroy that of the enemy, it's a simple RTS rule. Map control isn't just about getting kills and pushing back the enemy, it is about capitalizing on conquered res nodes by dropping harvesters and preventing lone enemies from taking them down.
I am OP and need to clarify some misconceptions in this thread.
First game it was a massively losing game, we were down to a single hive, marines with 90% map control, they had dual exos 3 chairs, all res towers bar our base node.
We had 0 onos. They pushed cargo hive, somehow in the battle we won, we wiped 5+ exos as skulks, with welder support, immediately after we split in every direction. One marine hid in the vent before cargo from the right hand side, when we split off he came out later and started killing the base harvester, comm spent our res down to 9. One skulk ran back killed the rine but he got the tower down.
We completely cleared the map, completely, pinned them into crossroads with a single exo as def. and cleared their other 2 bases.
Game changer right? Should mean epic alien comeback, 9/10 games aliens woulda ready room'd on that exo push.
However, alien were res lock'd, no res from hive not even .3 per 3 minutes, which woulda won us the game. We literally could do nothing but throw ourselves at crossroads until they had enough res to grind out the win ( another 15-20 mins afaik ).
HOW IS THIS BALANCED? IF ROLES WERE REVERSED, rines recycle something, build a res then more on their map domination which IS and SHOULD be the win, pin us in hive and win legit. Aliens however, may aswell afk.
Res-lock is fail, and a major balance issue.
If there is no comeback from skilled play for 1 out of the 2 sides, this is a balance issue.
<!--quoteo(post=2026228:date=Nov 16 2012, 11:12 PM:name=|R18|Zerg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|R18|Zerg @ Nov 16 2012, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One marine hid in the vent before cargo from the right hand side, when we split off he came out later and started killing the base harvester, comm spent our res down to 9. One skulk ran back killed the rine but he got the tower down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the sound of this marine, he's a clever guy.
So you hit back and 'overcame' the marines, so what? Does that mean the marines can not come back against you again?
I think he hurt your pride more than made evident the 'problem' with res-lock.
Sounded like a great game, but you lost. Your team should have been aware of the low res and defended the harvester, or the commander should have alerted you.
<!--quoteo(post=2026231:date=Nov 16 2012, 05:15 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP appears to be unable to comprehend the difference between symmetry and balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you seem impervious to all the posts illustrating that this is a stupid mechanic that relies utterly on luck to be effective. There is no way for the Marines to know that killing a single resource node will result in a resource lock. There is also no way to simulate anything like a resource lock for Aliens to render the entire Marines team toothless and unable to build.
This isn't symmetry or balance, it's stupid and add's nothing but frustration.
<!--quoteo(post=2026241:date=Nov 16 2012, 11:21 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 16 2012, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you seem impervious to all the posts illustrating that this is a stupid mechanic that relies utterly on luck to be effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you don't watch competitive matches where teams have actually pushed to res lock aliens. Matches have been won several times from just targeting harvesters really early on.
Maybe we should stop skulk rushes as well, because it is clearly imbalanced?
<!--quoteo(post=2026239:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:21 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 17 2012, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the sound of this marine, he's a clever guy.
So you hit back and 'overcame' the marines, so what? Does that mean the marines can not come back against you again?
I think he hurt your pride more than made evident the 'problem' with res-lock.
Sounded like a great game, but you lost. Your team should have been aware of the low res and defended the harvester, or the commander should have alerted you.
Your argument is so flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except he can't see our res, he doesn't know he is winning the game, he thought he was harassing us, which it should have been, a set-back for our haste to win back the map, which we did, not the game defining moment.
Win the game by killing a 10 res structure. Marines can come back again, they could legit fight their way out and re-assert map control. But they didn't they just waited.
Effictively this is a major imbalance against aliens, obviously every alien upgrade, or structure, is 10 res more expensive then its actual res-cost, because an alien comm can't drop down to 0 res, making the maximum use of his res, as you would attempt to do in an RTS, or it can be GG. As happened at the ESL.
Aliens can be res-locked, rines can't be res-locked. WHY? What does this add to gameplay??? Don't go assymetrical gameplay GG. TELL ME WHY.
Im not saying targetting RT isnt a legit and top notch tactic, im saying, if you have a hive, a billion empty RTs, and 9 res. That shouldn't mean insta-gg.
<!--quoteo(post=2026245:date=Nov 16 2012, 05:23 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 16 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you don't watch competitive matches where teams have actually pushed to res lock aliens. Matches have been won several times from just targeting harvesters really early on.
Maybe we should stop skulk rushes as well, because it is clearly imbalanced?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not even a valid comparison in any way, shape, or form.
It is, again, <i>utterly impossible</i> to know that killing a resource node will result in resource lock. Therefore it isn't a 'skilled' tactic, it is the result of the game being about killing resource nodes, while one team can be completely shut out of the resource game while the other cannot.
How is this symmetrical, or balanced, or anything other than freak luck and a single accident that results in a liesurely stroll through the park for even <i>the utterly worst team in existence</i>.
Please, tell me what tactic the Aliens can use to result in the same general circumstance. It doesn't even need to be the same thing, since you'll argue that point. Just get <i>close</i> to a reasonable answer that isn't 'balanced' or 'symmetrical' in some other fashion.
<!--quoteo(post=2026251:date=Nov 16 2012, 05:28 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 16 2012, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please, tell me what tactic the Aliens can use to result in the same general circumstance. It doesn't even need to be the same thing, since you'll argue that point. Just get <i>close</i> to a reasonable answer that isn't 'balanced' or 'symmetrical' in some other fashion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens rush Marine Start IPs to force a Beacon. Little do they know the Com has screwed up his res and can't afford it. Much to their surprise, the com doesn't beacon, and they aliens push through to destroy all the IPs. With no way to respawn, the Marine team is quickly cut down around the map, while the aliens in Marine Start ambush anybody who returns to build new IPs. No matter how much map presence the Marines had or how well they were doing, if their team loses their IPs the aliens can simply overwhelm the surviving players.
<!--quoteo(post=2026254:date=Nov 16 2012, 05:32 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens rush Marine Start IPs to force a Beacon. Little do they know the Com has screwed up his res and can't afford it. Much to their surprise, the com doesn't beacon, and they aliens push through to destroy all the IPs. With no way to respawn, the Marine team is quickly cut down around the map, while the aliens in Marine Start ambush anybody who returns to build new IPs.
Shut up now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, kind of like how the Aliens can be egg-locked at the very beginning of the game?
If the Marines push off the first base rush, guess what. They still have resources. The commander could <i>recycle the observatory</i> to build a new Res node or IP if he wanted.
Next please.
EDIT: Oh, and by the way, if the marines are 'around the map' he could also recycle base objects and simply <i>move them to another tech point.</i> Oops.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shhhhh shhhhhhh shhht. No tears now, only dreams. You promised.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you can't tell a well reasoned argument from crying. I interpret your response to be an admission that early base rushes are, in fact, symetrical with egg locking which easily invalidated your statement as per the direct quote daring you to make a decent example. Your failure to do so is noted.
<!--quoteo(post=2026256:date=Nov 16 2012, 05:34 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 16 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What, kind of like how the Aliens can be egg-locked at the very beginning of the game?
If the Marines push off the first base rush, guess what. They still have resources. The commander could <i>recycle the observatory</i> to build a new Res node if he wanted.
Next please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shhhhh shhhhhhh shhht. No tears now, only dreams. You promised.
<!--quoteo(post=2026254:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:32 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 17 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens rush Marine Start IPs to force a Beacon. Little do they know the Com has screwed up his res and can't afford it. Much to their surprise, the com doesn't beacon, and they aliens push through to destroy all the IPs. With no way to respawn, the Marine team is quickly cut down around the map, while the aliens in Marine Start ambush anybody who returns to build new IPs.
Shut up now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is nothing like the example. Aliens rush Marine start, kill the only rine RT in the confusion, commander beacons leaving him on 9 TR, aliens lose the battle but kill the RT. He recycles something, builds a new RT.
Aliens, roles reversed, drops a shift or something down to 9 res, rines kill the base tower, aliens can never, NEVER, come back.
<!--quoteo(post=2026231:date=Nov 16 2012, 06:15 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP appears to be unable to comprehend the difference between symmetry and balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to take a minute and explain to you the difference between symmetry and balance, or more specifically the fact that asymmetry and imbalance can coexist. The game itself is much more symmetrical than it is asymmetrical. There are underlying principals of the gameplay that exist and both teams implement them differently. For instance, marines have to buy better weapons whereas the aliens evolve higher life forms. These rely upon a system of personal res, or team res spent on weapons/eggs, but the end result is the same: More powerful singular units on the field. There isn't per se a one to one correlation of abilities from marines to aliens, but there is very close to that for *gameplay mechanics implemented* between aliens and marines. The ability to be res locked is one instance where this relation does not hold true.
<!--quoteo(post=2026254:date=Nov 16 2012, 06:32 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens rush Marine Start IPs to force a Beacon. Little do they know the Com has screwed up his res and can't afford it. Much to their surprise, the com doesn't beacon, and they aliens push through to destroy all the IPs. With no way to respawn, the Marine team is quickly cut down around the map, while the aliens in Marine Start ambush anybody who returns to build new IPs.
Shut up now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Non sequitur. This is about the same as the marines rushing in and egglocking a hive, all those who come to defend get killed by the occupying force.
I think the OP has become so passionate about this idea that he is forgetting that there are 10s of other asymmetrical aspects to this game that you could argue in exactly the same way.
Again, if the commander was more experienced and kept a good eye on his res you wouldn't be in that situation. Blame the commander, not the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2026265:date=Nov 16 2012, 05:38 PM:name=__Viking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (__Viking @ Nov 16 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Non sequitur. This is about the same as the marines rushing in and egglocking a hive, all those who come to defend get killed by the occupying force.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for stating that clearly Viking. Being resource locked is one of the few glaring examples of true imbalance in the game. The only reason it hasn't been addressed is because it happens so infrequently and is something that only happens through luck or happenstance.
For a game that is arguably centered around killing and taking resource nodes, having one team punished by being locked out of playing the resource game at all when the other team is doing what it always does is a noticeably broken mechanic when it happens. At the very least, a crappy commander could be ejected and someone competent could take over to at least try and secure a comeback. As it is, it's F4 time when you get resource locked. Even great skulks that rape Exo's will eventually be pushed to extinction without the ability to build, and it will be an incredibly boring and painful experience to do so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please, tell me what tactic the Aliens can use to result in the same general circumstance. It doesn't even need to be the same thing, since you'll argue that point. Just get close to a reasonable answer that isn't 'balanced' or 'symmetrical' in some other fashion.
Just one, and I'll shut up. Promise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Previously I had unequivocally agreed that the comm had made an error, but imagine you were the comm in that situation. Your first order of business when in that situation would be to expand outward and get more res nodes, but in doing so, you must make cysts. So you go about happily making cysts toward res nodes. Then, when you are below 10 res, ninja marine appears and pops your harvester, maybe it was next to death because of the push and easily killed (in seconds). You are now res locked. Can you honestly say you ALWAYS keep your res above 10 when playing alien? It would be rather absurd. Also suppose you told someone to go gorge to heal that harvester, but no one did. This would be a failure of the team as a whole and not the comm.
And in any event, this cannot happen to the marines.
A simple fix would be a tiny res bonus per hive, like 0.16-0.33res per 2-3mins. This would be assymetrical, and barely affect current balance.
Or make eggs recyclable for 0.33 res per or something... this might be abused tho, but it'd be lol to see if you could hold out with a single egg spawn per 13 secs just for a 3-4 min onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2026414:date=Nov 16 2012, 08:18 PM:name=zzzfingernailzzz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zzzfingernailzzz @ Nov 16 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best way to fix this is res for kill imo. What was uwes reasoning for leaving it out of ns2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you're intending for RFK to go straight to T.Res, thus compounding the early Onos issue, it won't make any difference in the situation being described unless you intend on killing 50 marines for a fade, or 75 of them for an Onos. Any more would be an even bigger problem than the one we're trying to get fixed.
Also, RFK discussion is being held in several <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124602" target="_blank">other</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124143" target="_blank">threads.</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2026473:date=Nov 17 2012, 11:13 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 17 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you're intending for RFK to go straight to T.Res, thus compounding the early Onos issue, it won't make any difference in the situation being described unless you intend on killing 50 marines for a fade, or 75 of them for an Onos. Any more would be an even bigger problem than the one we're trying to get fixed.
Also, RFK discussion is being held in several <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124602" target="_blank">other</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124143" target="_blank">threads.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no one complained the 1:45 fade in ns1? the clanner could have killed dozens with a skulk and he is just doing it a bit faster with a fade. and the problem lies in commander being able to drop onos eggs, not rfk.
<!--quoteo(post=2026475:date=Nov 16 2012, 09:14 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 16 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one complained the 1:45 fade in ns1? the clanner could have killed dozens with a skulk and he is just doing it a bit faster with a fade. and the problem lies in commander being able to drop onos eggs, not rfk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, but that's a pretty unrealistic method of comeback comparatively speaking. So the aliens need to kill 50 or 75 Marines each to even maybe come back after being resource locked? Compared to recycling one building when you've lost resources nodes and can't build more? Excuse me if I think that's a bit unrealistic and unfair, not to mention if the aliens are <i>that</i> good...well what <i>could</i> beat a team like that? (Not that there are any players that good, let alone a full team of them. Not even sure the current competitive scene could pull that one off, let alone a public game.)
Even then, so what if they get a fade after killing 50 Marines? It still won't have blink. Or Bile Bomb. Or anything other than a few more HP that they're likely to instantly lose again even after such an incredible streak. It going to T-Res exacerbates an already present issue, and it going to P.Res is just plain unrealistic as a fix.
No, this is a simple fix issue that doesn't need the involvement of a highly complex, game changing mechanic that's already highly controversial.
As another poster suggested, the only reasonable fix is a small resource tick from a hive, maybe that only even ticks when there are no other resource nodes.
It's just too unforgiving without some kind of recycle function that, as another poster pointed out, doesn't fit thematically without some stretching. (Although I don't know how much people necessarily care about that aspect either.)
^ This guy gets it, also +1 the idea of a hive tick that only activates when you have 0 harvesters, this would prevent res-lock without changing any balance at all.
Comments
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Language please! -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why, every other RTS has res locking?
Asymmetry doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you.
It's absolutely moronic this is even a debate.
It's absolutely moronic this is even a debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. This thread has raised some interesting questions. You have a team that gained map control and a established a contain, yet lost it's harvesters, and a team that sacrificed that map control so that a few lone Rambos could kill those harvesters. Now I believe that the better team should be the winning team, this is my definition of balance. When applied to this situation, one team clearly had the upper hand, but gradually lost it because of res lock. The debate in this situation relies upon your performance metric for what makes a 'better' team. The obvious archetypes here are the more mechanically skilled players who were able to overpower and contain their enemy (aliens) and the more strategic minded players who destroyed vital assets, but compromised their own positioning (marines). To answer which team is better, one cannot ignore the context of the game itself, for you cannot be better than someone at chess while ignoring chess in your argument. When analyzing these teams in reversed roles (marines losing all extractors and having an alien contain), the probable victor is not the same team that won in the previous situation. This is something that is particularly interesting, and I feel is worth discussion.
Tell me if I'm wrong but it's INTENTIONAL that one team can res harras via rambos whilst the other is better suited to an attrittional warfare model. The great thing is, we *can* do the opposite ingame too, but with assymmetrical difficulty.
Aliens, however, can do absolutely nothing if they have lost all their resource nodes. Even if the individual skulks are far better players, which they are if they're taking out teams of Exos, they have very little chance of winning if they get resource locked. It needlessly stretches out the game. If a team gets resource locked, the round should end.
There is also absolutely no reason why it's 'balanced' this way. It's counter-intuitive and is simply not fun to play when this happens. A base rush is your only chance, and suicide-rushing a Marines base over and over again removes any 'fun' in a hybrid RTS/FPS game. Especially when it's impossible to level the playing field without even the chance at a higher life form.
The other big problem is that it can happen with any number of hives, at any point in the game. It's harder late-game, certainly, but still possible. As a 'winning' strategm, it is simply not fun for anyone involved except the inevitable Exo's that can march right into a hive without any worry about anything other than skulks being there. A single grenade launcher can protect an Exo from an infinite amount of skulks in this situation, so why not just end things then and there? The level of play from skulks to beat the Marines when resource locked is simply unrealistic. Not to mention that no 'winning' strategy should rely on the other team making a bone-headed mistake that's easily corrected by the other team if roles were reversed. You can't resource lock the other team on purpose, it can only happen through a mistake, which means it <i>isn't even a skill-based tactic.</i> It's an accident, or luck, pure and simple.
To those saying it opens up more stratagems to win, well you're right it does. Only for one team. There is no comparable way for the Aliens team to win in such a fashion. They are <i>required</i> to clear the Marines off the map, and there is no way to limit their tech without an active, continued push to do so. Marines that have resource locked the aliens team can kick back, take their time, and do <i>literally anything they want</i>. A single turret battery can protect a Marines primary base with minimal cover. The point is that the Marines don't have anything to worry about once they have resource locked the Aliens. Nothing. Skulks are laughable to high-tech Marines, and unless you can kill the Marines base (or bases, which really means the Aliens can't win.) right off the bat after realizing your resource locked it's a hopeless uphill battle that can stretch out for as long as the Marines feel like milking it.
Does it happen often? No. Is it complete horse #%&* when it happens? Yes.
The better team is the team that can protect it's resource flow and destroy that of the enemy, it's a simple RTS rule. Map control isn't just about getting kills and pushing back the enemy, it is about capitalizing on conquered res nodes by dropping harvesters and preventing lone enemies from taking them down.
First game it was a massively losing game, we were down to a single hive, marines with 90% map control, they had dual exos 3 chairs, all res towers bar our base node.
We had 0 onos. They pushed cargo hive, somehow in the battle we won, we wiped 5+ exos as skulks, with welder support, immediately after we split in every direction. One marine hid in the vent before cargo from the right hand side, when we split off he came out later and started killing the base harvester, comm spent our res down to 9. One skulk ran back killed the rine but he got the tower down.
We completely cleared the map, completely, pinned them into crossroads with a single exo as def. and cleared their other 2 bases.
Game changer right? Should mean epic alien comeback, 9/10 games aliens woulda ready room'd on that exo push.
However, alien were res lock'd, no res from hive not even .3 per 3 minutes, which woulda won us the game. We literally could do nothing but throw ourselves at crossroads until they had enough res to grind out the win ( another 15-20 mins afaik ).
HOW IS THIS BALANCED? IF ROLES WERE REVERSED, rines recycle something, build a res then more on their map domination which IS and SHOULD be the win, pin us in hive and win legit.
Aliens however, may aswell afk.
Res-lock is fail, and a major balance issue.
If there is no comeback from skilled play for 1 out of the 2 sides, this is a balance issue.
I like the sound of this marine, he's a clever guy.
So you hit back and 'overcame' the marines, so what? Does that mean the marines can not come back against you again?
I think he hurt your pride more than made evident the 'problem' with res-lock.
Sounded like a great game, but you lost. Your team should have been aware of the low res and defended the harvester, or the commander should have alerted you.
Your argument is so flawed.
And you seem impervious to all the posts illustrating that this is a stupid mechanic that relies utterly on luck to be effective. There is no way for the Marines to know that killing a single resource node will result in a resource lock. There is also no way to simulate anything like a resource lock for Aliens to render the entire Marines team toothless and unable to build.
This isn't symmetry or balance, it's stupid and add's nothing but frustration.
Well you don't watch competitive matches where teams have actually pushed to res lock aliens. Matches have been won several times from just targeting harvesters really early on.
Maybe we should stop skulk rushes as well, because it is clearly imbalanced?
So you hit back and 'overcame' the marines, so what? Does that mean the marines can not come back against you again?
I think he hurt your pride more than made evident the 'problem' with res-lock.
Sounded like a great game, but you lost. Your team should have been aware of the low res and defended the harvester, or the commander should have alerted you.
Your argument is so flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except he can't see our res, he doesn't know he is winning the game, he thought he was harassing us, which it should have been, a set-back for our haste to win back the map, which we did, not the game defining moment.
Win the game by killing a 10 res structure. Marines can come back again, they could legit fight their way out and re-assert map control.
But they didn't they just waited.
Effictively this is a major imbalance against aliens, obviously every alien upgrade, or structure, is 10 res more expensive then its actual res-cost, because an alien comm can't drop down to 0 res, making the maximum use of his res, as you would attempt to do in an RTS, or it can be GG. As happened at the ESL.
Aliens can be res-locked, rines can't be res-locked. WHY? What does this add to gameplay??? Don't go assymetrical gameplay GG. TELL ME WHY.
Im not saying targetting RT isnt a legit and top notch tactic, im saying, if you have a hive, a billion empty RTs, and 9 res. That shouldn't mean insta-gg.
Maybe we should stop skulk rushes as well, because it is clearly imbalanced?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not even a valid comparison in any way, shape, or form.
It is, again, <i>utterly impossible</i> to know that killing a resource node will result in resource lock. Therefore it isn't a 'skilled' tactic, it is the result of the game being about killing resource nodes, while one team can be completely shut out of the resource game while the other cannot.
How is this symmetrical, or balanced, or anything other than freak luck and a single accident that results in a liesurely stroll through the park for even <i>the utterly worst team in existence</i>.
Please, tell me what tactic the Aliens can use to result in the same general circumstance. It doesn't even need to be the same thing, since you'll argue that point. Just get <i>close</i> to a reasonable answer that isn't 'balanced' or 'symmetrical' in some other fashion.
Just one, and I'll shut up. Promise.
Aliens rush Marine Start IPs to force a Beacon. Little do they know the Com has screwed up his res and can't afford it. Much to their surprise, the com doesn't beacon, and they aliens push through to destroy all the IPs. With no way to respawn, the Marine team is quickly cut down around the map, while the aliens in Marine Start ambush anybody who returns to build new IPs. No matter how much map presence the Marines had or how well they were doing, if their team loses their IPs the aliens can simply overwhelm the surviving players.
Shut up now.
Shut up now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, kind of like how the Aliens can be egg-locked at the very beginning of the game?
If the Marines push off the first base rush, guess what. They still have resources. The commander could <i>recycle the observatory</i> to build a new Res node or IP if he wanted.
Next please.
EDIT: Oh, and by the way, if the marines are 'around the map' he could also recycle base objects and simply <i>move them to another tech point.</i> Oops.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shhhhh shhhhhhh shhht. No tears now, only dreams. You promised.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you can't tell a well reasoned argument from crying. I interpret your response to be an admission that early base rushes are, in fact, symetrical with egg locking which easily invalidated your statement as per the direct quote daring you to make a decent example. Your failure to do so is noted.
If the Marines push off the first base rush, guess what. They still have resources. The commander could <i>recycle the observatory</i> to build a new Res node if he wanted.
Next please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shhhhh shhhhhhh shhht. No tears now, only dreams. You promised.
Shut up now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is nothing like the example.
Aliens rush Marine start, kill the only rine RT in the confusion, commander beacons leaving him on 9 TR, aliens lose the battle but kill the RT.
He recycles something, builds a new RT.
Aliens, roles reversed, drops a shift or something down to 9 res, rines kill the base tower, aliens can never, NEVER, come back.
I'd like to take a minute and explain to you the difference between symmetry and balance, or more specifically the fact that asymmetry and imbalance can coexist. The game itself is much more symmetrical than it is asymmetrical. There are underlying principals of the gameplay that exist and both teams implement them differently. For instance, marines have to buy better weapons whereas the aliens evolve higher life forms. These rely upon a system of personal res, or team res spent on weapons/eggs, but the end result is the same: More powerful singular units on the field. There isn't per se a one to one correlation of abilities from marines to aliens, but there is very close to that for *gameplay mechanics implemented* between aliens and marines. The ability to be res locked is one instance where this relation does not hold true.
<!--quoteo(post=2026254:date=Nov 16 2012, 06:32 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 16 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens rush Marine Start IPs to force a Beacon. Little do they know the Com has screwed up his res and can't afford it. Much to their surprise, the com doesn't beacon, and they aliens push through to destroy all the IPs. With no way to respawn, the Marine team is quickly cut down around the map, while the aliens in Marine Start ambush anybody who returns to build new IPs.
Shut up now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Non sequitur. This is about the same as the marines rushing in and egglocking a hive, all those who come to defend get killed by the occupying force.
Again, if the commander was more experienced and kept a good eye on his res you wouldn't be in that situation. Blame the commander, not the game.
Thanks for stating that clearly Viking. Being resource locked is one of the few glaring examples of true imbalance in the game. The only reason it hasn't been addressed is because it happens so infrequently and is something that only happens through luck or happenstance.
For a game that is arguably centered around killing and taking resource nodes, having one team punished by being locked out of playing the resource game at all when the other team is doing what it always does is a noticeably broken mechanic when it happens. At the very least, a crappy commander could be ejected and someone competent could take over to at least try and secure a comeback. As it is, it's F4 time when you get resource locked. Even great skulks that rape Exo's will eventually be pushed to extinction without the ability to build, and it will be an incredibly boring and painful experience to do so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please, tell me what tactic the Aliens can use to result in the same general circumstance. It doesn't even need to be the same thing, since you'll argue that point. Just get close to a reasonable answer that isn't 'balanced' or 'symmetrical' in some other fashion.
Just one, and I'll shut up. Promise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The challenge still stands.
And in any event, this cannot happen to the marines.
Or make eggs recyclable for 0.33 res per or something... this might be abused tho, but it'd be lol to see if you could hold out with a single egg spawn per 13 secs just for a 3-4 min onos.
The best way to fix this is res for kill imo. What was uwes reasoning for leaving it out of ns2?
Unless you're intending for RFK to go straight to T.Res, thus compounding the early Onos issue, it won't make any difference in the situation being described unless you intend on killing 50 marines for a fade, or 75 of them for an Onos. Any more would be an even bigger problem than the one we're trying to get fixed.
Also, RFK discussion is being held in several <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124602" target="_blank">other</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124143" target="_blank">threads.</a>
Also, RFK discussion is being held in several <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124602" target="_blank">other</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124143" target="_blank">threads.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no one complained the 1:45 fade in ns1? the clanner could have killed dozens with a skulk and he is just doing it a bit faster with a fade. and the problem lies in commander being able to drop onos eggs, not rfk.
No, but that's a pretty unrealistic method of comeback comparatively speaking. So the aliens need to kill 50 or 75 Marines each to even maybe come back after being resource locked? Compared to recycling one building when you've lost resources nodes and can't build more? Excuse me if I think that's a bit unrealistic and unfair, not to mention if the aliens are <i>that</i> good...well what <i>could</i> beat a team like that? (Not that there are any players that good, let alone a full team of them. Not even sure the current competitive scene could pull that one off, let alone a public game.)
Even then, so what if they get a fade after killing 50 Marines? It still won't have blink. Or Bile Bomb. Or anything other than a few more HP that they're likely to instantly lose again even after such an incredible streak. It going to T-Res exacerbates an already present issue, and it going to P.Res is just plain unrealistic as a fix.
No, this is a simple fix issue that doesn't need the involvement of a highly complex, game changing mechanic that's already highly controversial.
As another poster suggested, the only reasonable fix is a small resource tick from a hive, maybe that only even ticks when there are no other resource nodes.
It's just too unforgiving without some kind of recycle function that, as another poster pointed out, doesn't fit thematically without some stretching. (Although I don't know how much people necessarily care about that aspect either.)