We are still fighting each other bases
countbasie
Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
<div class="IPBDescription">instead of fighting each other.</div>Onoses and Exos barely meet each other. I'd suggest Hive teleport and phasing for all classes.
We don't want to have base-rush countered with base-rush, but base-rush countered with epic fights with all the teams got.
Right?
EDIT: Title should say 'each other's', of course.
We don't want to have base-rush countered with base-rush, but base-rush countered with epic fights with all the teams got.
Right?
EDIT: Title should say 'each other's', of course.
Comments
Yeah, that's what I'm aiming for
I've heard this point repeated all the time.
You would think that UWE would discourage armory walling because of this philosophy. Instead they seem to be doing the opposite - actively encouraging it.
I'm all for anything that moves the game away from player vs structure.
I want to see onos vs exosuits+jetpacks. Not onos vs armory wall with a bunch of marines shooting it from safety behind the wall.
Remove early onos (either by way of making 3rd hive a requirement, or increasing hive maturity time and making 2 mature hives a requirement). Make armories shorter so they can be jumped over. Instantly the game becomes 100% more exciting and fun
Agree with op, pub base trading nonsense needs to stop.
I also don't see whats the problem with player vs structure its a FPS RTS if you wanted more of the FPS there are many different games that already do that.
The reason is because aliens are currently much less effective at map-mobility than marines, which is counter-intuitive (you would expect the other way round). Marines can go from being on one side of the map to another by using phase gates, and even without phase gates, they have sprint, which makes them basically as fast as aliens anyway.
The upcoming 'gorge tunnel' is supposed to be the aliens answer to marine's phase gates and hopefully will help things out a little. Hopefully this will solve the alien's mobility problem without resorting to bringing back hive teleport.
It also is usually a bigger hit to the Marines for this to happen, which tilts things a little in the aliens direction. Especially if the commander beacons away his Exo support for a good Onos/Bile Bomb charge.
Seems like a legitimate strategy to me, although usually when I find myself base trading as commander it's because my troops aren't up to the same skill level as the Marines, so they're more effective against static structures. It's not something I generally like to do, but you work with what you've got.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason is because aliens are currently much less effective at map-mobility than marines, which is counter-intuitive (you would expect the other way round). Marines can go from being on one side of the map to another by using phase gates, and even without phase gates, they have sprint, which makes them basically as fast as aliens anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly this is true up to a point. Two of the three late-game Marine tech's are extremely limited, which forces some really hard late-game decisions for a Marines commander. A suddenly diverted Aliens force that decimates a base is a giant headache for the Marines, as he needs to decide if he wants to wreck his Exo's and be further behind on resources (I.E. No more Exo's for a while.) or keep his forces together as an extremely limited-speed force. Forcing him to make that decision is a good way to provoke a mistake. (Or even more often, some of his players to make a mistake.)
I like to a play a fairly passive early game, expansive middle game, and a blitzkrieg late game once the Marines commander has over-committed to a fight. That's when aliens have a big window to do some serious damage, while probably only losing one easily replaced hive. The danger is when the hive in question is the one that houses your upgrades, which is why I generally try to build upgrades inside their respective hives. Makes it harder to loose everything against one guy. A shift would work, but it's just so slow that I'd probably still lose more than building them elsewhere.
Realistically speaking, an Exo can only be killed by alien players and an Onos can only be killed by marine players. Whips, hydras, turrets and mines are all relatively ineffective against these endgame units.
Even if you are suggesting that all the early and midgame PVP doesn't count, the very fact that games don't always end the instant one of these units shows up on the battlefield suggests that they must be encountering PVP at least some of the time.
These units rarely encounter each other because they are high-tech and extremely expensive. It's rare for both teams to have the tech and resources to field them simultaneously. When these units do fight each other, they are both extremely deadly to the other. Battles between them tend to end far more quickly than the time it takes to build up the resources needed to buy another one.
You would think that UWE would discourage armory walling because of this philosophy. Instead they seem to be doing the opposite - actively encouraging it.
I'm all for anything that moves the game away from player vs structure.
I want to see onos vs exosuits+jetpacks. Not onos vs armory wall with a bunch of marines shooting it from safety behind the wall.
Remove early onos (either by way of making 3rd hive a requirement, or increasing hive maturity time and making 2 mature hives a requirement). Make armories shorter so they can be jumped over. Instantly the game becomes 100% more exciting and fun<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you want to play an RTS hybrid like this if you don't want to deal with structures? Isn't there already a combat mod?
Also, the counter to that armory wall costs 10 pres, it is called a 'gorge'.
We don't want to have base-rush countered with base-rush, but base-rush countered with epic fights with all the teams got.
Right?
EDIT: Title should say 'each other's', of course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a legitimate tactic. It was even mentioned in Sun Tzu's Art of War
Ch.6 Weak Points and Strong
11 "If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve. "
Ch.6 Weak Points and Strong
11 "If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve. "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem i think though is that neither team is able to 'relieve' said place under attack or that it isn't the best decision, hence base trading. With critical mass exo trains, you can very likely end up in situations where the best decision for both teams is simply to continue killing bases as quickly as possible, hoping the other team doesn't kill your bases quicker than you. Most oft than not, this decision making can quickly snowball into a circular cycle of relocation.
*You don't need to kill the enemy team to win. You only need to kill the last CC/hive.
Where marines tend to get smart is if they keep a dual minigun Exo with MAC support in their base and send jetpackers off to attack the Hive. Once that counter attack comes in, the Exo is already in the base so a beacon only supports him and the counter is usually crushed.
edit: Also with the base trading, it seems to go in alien favor again. just take out the power and the cc and then move along, leaving one skulk to clean up/deny macs. whereas to move just as quickly the marines need most of their team, unless there's arcs at another hive doing the work.
It makes it feel like come backs are possible and makes it feel like the round isn't decided as early as it was in NS1.
Your team has to make a decision to leave an area vulnerable so it can assault another at full strength. I think I like that game mechanic.
Given the choice of hitting a brick wall head on, or going around it, OP would prefer the former. This is not strategy, this is not smart play, this is not natural selection.
Ch.6 Weak Points and Strong
11 "If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve. "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it is legitimate. But right now it is the only viable strategy in 80% of the cases. Should be the other way around.
Given the choice of hitting a brick wall head on, or going around it, OP would prefer the former. This is not strategy, this is not smart play, this is not natural selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EDIT: I withdraw my post. I think imbalanxd is a satirist who wants to ensnare us into the need of justifying ourselves.
*You don't need to kill the enemy team to win. You only need to kill the last CC/hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, exactly.
Are you saying that, for any one player, 80% of his time in a round is spent not fighting? Man, if that is the case, then you are playing on some weird servers.
No, this is about counter strategies for base rushes.
Actually if you're an alien player at endgame, the best thing to do is to attack structures and flee as soon a marine shows.
Umbra lerks + bile bomb gorges will quickly AoE down any nearby Macs (and prevent them from welding in the interim), while partially blinding and dealing heavy damage to the exos.
A herd of space cows would just block each other, and would struggle to focus fire on the support.