Auto team balance

Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
<!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->[AUTO TEAM ENABLED] you will spawn soon
You can switch teams to spawn faster<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

This is by far the worst mod I have ever seen for this game or most games.

Let’s take a 10 vs 10 game, 10 marines and 10 aliens and see what this mod will do.

1. 1 alien leaves nothing happens.
2. 2 aliens leave and it kicks in and now 2 marines get caught in this mod.
3. Those 2 marines don’t spawn soon, they just don’t spawn unless a teammate dies.
4. Nearing the end of the game 6 more aliens f4 or just quit and the remaining 2 are really good, so they kill a lot of marines.
5. It’s still 10 vs 2 but now there are 2 marines and 2 aliens with 8 dead marines that can’t spawn.

Comments

  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    yeah its kinda annoying and even redundant with the autoconcede function in place.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    Solution to this is to count players in the RR as still being on the team they last left
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    It's not a mod, it's the default of the game right now :-) .

    But I agree, it's not a very elegant solution. In CS the left players are replaced with bots, but since this isn't an option in NS2 and usually when players leave the game is effectively over, I think a properly implemented "surrender" vote which is easier to use and requires input (yes or no), and easier to call or vote on without having to bring up console and type "surrender," with server-adjustable "% needed to surrender" might be better.
  • MangoMango Join Date: 2012-10-11 Member: 162061Members
    I like the mod a lot. Yesterday I was in the Aliens team and a few marines F4 blocking any new players from joining. This mod made me wait till more joined Marines, but I didn't mind at all cause it didn't ruined the game. Once those marines who F4 decided to join back to marines and everything went back to normal.
  • KaptajnKLOKaptajnKLO Join Date: 2012-06-25 Member: 153658Members
    In all the hours that I have played with this feature implemented I have yet to be bothered by it.
  • Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
    I'll bring this up again, this hurts more than it helps. If you want to keep it then have it say what it means "<!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->You will not spawn until there are more dead of you than the other team<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->"
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    it should be more clear: it means that the team with more players are inserted into the spawn queue and only an equal number of players can be on the field at once.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    This is not a mod, this is an intended game feature

    and yes, it is terribly thought out and implemented.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Think about it, guys. Would you rather have the game end because of a team switcher and ragequit, be autobalanced to the other team and watch all those awesome plays work against you, or patiently wait your turn so the other team isn't automatically overpowered?

    The fact that the concede option works is GREAT with this system, since you will not turn into a 9v2 with 7 people waiting.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    well there should be a hard cutoff limit. like if the disparity is >30% then forfeit.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=2005595:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:56 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 2 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not a mod, this is an intended game feature

    and yes, it is terribly thought out and implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    beats being switched to the other team, which makes me quit the game entirely 90% of the time since i play with friends
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I just want the description to change, as it can be highly misleading.
  • ArkantiArkanti pub baddie Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111781Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    I doubt new players would even know how to change teams upon getting this message.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    edited November 2012
    It's actually a really good feature, one of the most creative and well conceived solutions to a problem that plagued the beta for ages. It only has one weakness which is end game rage quits.

    Most importantly, this feature is supposed to work in conjunction with another one: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121063&view=findpost&p=1986303" target="_blank">auto-concede</a>. Auto-balance kicks in when there is a minor disparity between teams, auto-concede kicks in when there is a major disparity between teams. But I'm yet to see auto-concede actually happen. Either the feature never made it in, or server operators are disabling it, or the default configuration values are too permissive.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2005615:date=Nov 1 2012, 09:05 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 1 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well there should be a hard cutoff limit. like if the disparity is >30% then forfeit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I thought that's more or less how it works - if X% of the team quits, it automatically forfeits.
  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2005615:date=Nov 1 2012, 09:05 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 1 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well there should be a hard cutoff limit. like if the disparity is >30% then forfeit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There is, it's a server configuration. I think it's something like if there are at least 6 players on one team and less than X% on the other, then end the game. The X% is what's configurable.

    In fact, I believe there's also a server configuration option for number of players that can be unbalanced before team balancing kicks in.


    on a side note, I much prefer this team balancing method than automatically forcing a random person to switch teams.
  • FappuchinoFappuchino Join Date: 2012-10-10 Member: 162008Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2005709:date=Nov 1 2012, 06:43 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Nov 1 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's actually a really good feature, one of the most creative and well conceived solutions to a problem that plagued the beta for ages. It only has one weakness which is end game rage quits.

    Most importantly, this feature is supposed to work in conjunction with another one: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121063&view=findpost&p=1986303" target="_blank">auto-concede</a>. Auto-balance kicks in when there is a minor disparity between teams, auto-concede kicks in when there is a major disparity between teams. But I'm yet to see auto-concede actually happen. Either the feature never made it in, or server operators are disabling it, or the default configuration values are too permissive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well said, only-sane-person-in this thread. The spawn delay is something that both both balances the game for small number disparities, and prevents users from being annoyed when switched to the losing team. I only wish more FPS's did this.
  • ArkantiArkanti pub baddie Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111781Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    Nearly every time it occurs though, it's because one team has effectively lost and is beginning to quit out. "Balancing" the game from this point only slows the match down rather than letting the players finish the game.

    Yeah it's true that automatically swapping people between teams would be worse, but this still needs work. A tangential fix for it would be providing a "Concede" vote to the losing team.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2005785:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Nov 2 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nearly every time it occurs though, it's because one team has effectively lost and is beginning to quit out. "Balancing" the game from this point only slows the match down rather than letting the players finish the game.

    Yeah it's true that automatically swapping people between teams would be worse, but this still needs work. A tangential fix for it would be providing a "Concede" vote to the losing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I kind of agree with you, and this is exactly the point I made in the thread where Murphy first started talking about it. But... to get rid of auto-balance is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Auto-team balance & auto-concede should work well together, if the configuration numbers are well tweaked.

    The problem you're identifying is caused by the late game grind/stalemate mechanics. Wanting to overcome that by permitting significantly imbalanced teams is actually pretty cheesy. See my point?
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
    Maybe a better description but I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Actually it's a pretty neat solution.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2005849:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:41 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe a better description but I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Actually it's a pretty neat solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Issue is when one side is losing and half the other team f4's, leaving fewer of the winning side able to spawn back in and slowing down the end game.

    If you want to speed up end game...just dont move once you spawn or shoot anything.

    But the current auto balance mechanism is frustrating, solution is to count those in the ready room as on the same team they just left (has to be possible as they show up as skulk or lerk against their name)....this will mean that half a side f4'ing does not result in the winning side unable to spawn.
    If players have disco'd and left the server fair enough...but not when they simply didn't want to play out the game went to wait in RR.
  • Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
    For past and future posts, keep in mind there is <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->NO SPAWN DELAY<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> when this kicks in. You just don't spawn. I can't remember how many times aliens will push marines back to their single base and can't end it. So some marines start to leave or f4 it, and now aliens get stuck with the option of switching to the lossing side/rage quiters or wait for their teammates to die (don't say massive bile bomb rush cause that really doesn't work).

    It gets really bad when players know how this works and begin to abuse it. Players know that they are loosing the they f4 and go to spectate knowing that it will hurt the other team by not spawning and give their side a chance.

    [Aliens get xenocide and begin to spew themselves upon the marines. Marines who played NS1 think it's game over not realizing they still have 2 command chairs and full upgrades and leave with 100 p res. Marines leave but not enough for the auto concede to kick in (or enough do, the game ends when marines were still in it) and now xenocide becomes useless.]
  • Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
    For those who are new to NS2 auto team balance is the bane of this game right now. I don't know why this was implemented or the person behind it but this is how it works. The game is coming to an end or one team just sucks. So players on the loosing side rage quit and go spectate.

    In the case that the game is about to end auto team balance slows down the end adding frustration to this game.

    If one team sucks the the players on the sucky team rage quit and spectate. This adds frustration to this game. Some players are good at heart and others have a halo above their heads so they switch teams to make the teams even again. The players that rage quit were in spectate but now join the non sucky team.

    Those players that have that halo say WTF, leave and play another game.


    <i>If someone thinks my assesment is wrong then tell me the benefits of <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->auto team balance<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->?</i>
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2005785:date=Nov 1 2012, 07:37 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Nov 1 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nearly every time it occurs though, it's because one team has effectively lost and is beginning to quit out. "Balancing" the game from this point only slows the match down rather than letting the players finish the game.

    Yeah it's true that automatically swapping people between teams would be worse, but this still needs work. A tangential fix for it would be providing a "Concede" vote to the losing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Any autobalance system is going to have this problem because they are unable to distinguish between the regular playercount fluctuations (e.g. people joining/leaving throughout a game) and people leaving from losing. Its the least worst solution, but works well imo if you simply jack the autoconcede number up high enough.
  • drilltoothdrilltooth Join Date: 2012-11-12 Member: 170096Members
    edited November 2012
    just as long as it doens;t get jacked to the point autoconcede kicks in if two people ragequit on a 10-man team.
    I've had folks f4 because comm refused to drop them an exo after they went and charged in stupidly ahead of the squad. or because one skulk made it to marinestart in the first minute. Personally, Iv;e no problem waiting to spawn if we're winning, Helps keep me from getting cocky. when I can reflect on my stupid mistakes.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    I believe this mod needs to <i>slow</i> spawning, not <i>stop</i> it entirely.

    For example, triple the spawn timers while auto-team balance mode is active.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    People who F4 and are sitting in RR should count against the last team they where on (this is tracked as it shows them as still marine, skulk etc in scoreboard)...this will mean that when a team f4's the winning side does not get gimped and not be able to re-spawn to finish the game.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Members
    agree with khyron's view

    all the issues with auto-team balance stems from a team trying to 'conceded' but couldn't

    notice how most examples is about lack of aliens, not lack of marines... because if it was marines wanting to concede they can just recycle
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