Cost Imbalance between Marines and Aliens
Sykomyke
Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20316Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20316Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Something I've noticed that I don't know how I didn't see it before.
Marines
Regular Exo-Suit. Has to be researched first. Requires two Tech Points to buy/research. Costs 50 resources to buy. Can be purchased by marines with personal income, or dropped by the commander.
Dual Gun Exo-Suit. Has to be researched after regular exo-suit. Requires two Tech Points to buy/research. Costs 75 resources to buy. Can be purchased by marines with personal income, but CANNOT be dropped by the commander.
Aliens
Onos. Does NOT have to be researched first. Requires two Tech Points to buy/drop egg. Costs 75 resources to buy. Can be purchased by players/dropped by commander.
Notice the disparity here? Arguably one could say that ExoSuits benefit from armor/weapon upgrades, but then so do Onos from evolutions.
Onos, while the resource equivalent of the Dual ExoSuit, can be dropped by the commander unlike the Dual Exo-Suit which can ONLY be purchased through marines personal incomes. This does two things, this makes Onos, more easily replaceable, and also obviates the fades role as a warrior. Fades are used less for being a warrior, and more for their hit and run tactics even though Fades are the resource equivalent of a regular exosuit. Let's not forget the fact that exosuits have a research time and a research cost as well.
An easy solution would be to take away the ability for the alien commander to drop Onos Eggs. However, I can see a bunch of people complaining about that, though honestly I feel like that is the best solution overall to addressing the balance issues at hand as this would also make fades more viable and more usable.
An alternative, and another easily implemented solution would be to take away the ability to purchase dual-exosuits altogether, and make regular exo-suits have an HUD purchasable upgrade to dual. This would allow players to spend their personal resources on upgrading a regular exo-suit to a dual exo-suits.
229 balance issues aside, the above is something that needs to be addressed eventually. Especially with the current meta of "4-8" minute onos.
Marines
Regular Exo-Suit. Has to be researched first. Requires two Tech Points to buy/research. Costs 50 resources to buy. Can be purchased by marines with personal income, or dropped by the commander.
Dual Gun Exo-Suit. Has to be researched after regular exo-suit. Requires two Tech Points to buy/research. Costs 75 resources to buy. Can be purchased by marines with personal income, but CANNOT be dropped by the commander.
Aliens
Onos. Does NOT have to be researched first. Requires two Tech Points to buy/drop egg. Costs 75 resources to buy. Can be purchased by players/dropped by commander.
Notice the disparity here? Arguably one could say that ExoSuits benefit from armor/weapon upgrades, but then so do Onos from evolutions.
Onos, while the resource equivalent of the Dual ExoSuit, can be dropped by the commander unlike the Dual Exo-Suit which can ONLY be purchased through marines personal incomes. This does two things, this makes Onos, more easily replaceable, and also obviates the fades role as a warrior. Fades are used less for being a warrior, and more for their hit and run tactics even though Fades are the resource equivalent of a regular exosuit. Let's not forget the fact that exosuits have a research time and a research cost as well.
An easy solution would be to take away the ability for the alien commander to drop Onos Eggs. However, I can see a bunch of people complaining about that, though honestly I feel like that is the best solution overall to addressing the balance issues at hand as this would also make fades more viable and more usable.
An alternative, and another easily implemented solution would be to take away the ability to purchase dual-exosuits altogether, and make regular exo-suits have an HUD purchasable upgrade to dual. This would allow players to spend their personal resources on upgrading a regular exo-suit to a dual exo-suits.
229 balance issues aside, the above is something that needs to be addressed eventually. Especially with the current meta of "4-8" minute onos.
Comments
You only get to play Onos 1 time in a game, if you stay skulk or gorge the entire time, then you have to spend like 1 min out of combat to get it.
Where as Marines when they buy a Exo, which is cheap btw and you can easily affort enough res for 2 exo's in a match, you get them instantly when you buy them.
But sure, make it so when i evolve to onos i takes 5-10sec or instantly like Exo, and make onos cheaper. then i wouldn mind at all.
I still think its imba that Exo suit can just be bought instantly no waiting required.
Marines have different drawbacks and aliens have different drawbacks, the reason why we play NS2 is for asymmetric gameplay...at least most people.
What you havn't done however is consider tres inflows and outflows specific to each team and indexed the power of each tres point so that they are comparable. Marines have an easier time getting res up throughout the game due to infestation, longer harvestor build times, and marine sprint.
Going by general rule of thumb, the rough conversion rate would be to say every point of alien tres is worth 1.5 marine tres. As for pres accumulation, both marine and alien rates, taking into account rfd, are similar enough to say that 75 pres vs 75 pres is a cost parity.
tres onos is self explanatory.
You only get to play Onos 1 time in a game, if you stay skulk or gorge the entire time, then you have to spend like 1 min out of combat to get it.
Where as Marines when they buy a Exo, which is cheap btw and you can easily affort enough res for 2 exo's in a match, you get them instantly when you buy them.
But sure, make it so when i evolve to onos i takes 5-10sec or instantly like Exo, and make onos cheaper. then i wouldn mind at all.
I still think its imba that Exo suit can just be bought instantly no waiting required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll assume that you are new due to your join date as well as your inability to understand the concepts I've outlined above. Onos, can be dropped in egg form, by the Alien Commander. Dual-ExoSuits CANNOT. Personal income aside, unless you control most of the map which is a moot point, both sides will see generally equal resource income assuming balanced and equally skilled teams. Hence, my earlier statement of "onos are more easily replaceable" because they can be dropped by the alien comm if a person dies with onos where Dual-Exosuits cannot be dropped, only regular ExoSuits.
<!--quoteo(post=2028292:date=Nov 18 2012, 07:35 PM:name=RaZDaZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaZDaZ @ Nov 18 2012, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what about alien upgrades? Lose the structure, you lose the upgrades and have to buy the structure and the upgrade again. Similar concept with hive upgrades, lose your second hive and no more leap/spores/blink/bile bomb albeit you don't need to purchase those again. Hive does take hell of a lot longer than a CS to build.
Marines have different drawbacks and aliens have different drawbacks, the reason why we play NS2 is for asymmetric gameplay...at least most people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love asymmetrical games, I think they are among the best types out there. Not sure why you brought up the topic of upgrades since I wasn't talking about that at all really, but since you mentioned it sure, I'll discuss it.
Alien upgrades are generally in areas with limited access to them (i.e. hives). Aliens have more mobility and can reach the marine base A LOT faster than marines can reach an alien hive usually. Again, given equal skill between both teams, in a perfect world marines simply cannot counter the mobilty of skulks and lerks early on and usually will not be able to reach the upgrades in question where skulks and lerks have a much easier time harassing or even getting the opportunity to try and take out a marine arms lab.
Asymmetrical games are great, as long as they are balanced. The point I was TRYING to make and hoped that people would read before just responding with any old inane drivel; was that currently the Onos-Dual Exo are not on equal footing when they are supposed to be relatively close to each other. I suggest you go back, and read what I wrote in the first post, before continuing to debate a subject that you apparently did not put much thought into.
Marines cannot drop the 75 res exo
Sentries are obviously cheaper than whips and do a much better job of covering, but drifters are probably 10 times better than trying to place observatories everywhere and their ability counters obs ability
Alien commander has a much easier time of defending base alone because he/she can gorge and drop in a bunch of stuff where marine com can only get a shottie or welder and even this seems rare <i>(most marine comes just don't step out the whole game)</i>
What you havn't done however is consider tres inflows and outflows specific to each team and indexed the power of each res point so that they are comparable. Marines have an easier time getting res up throughout the game.
Going by general rule of thumb, the rough conversion rate would be to say every point of alien tres is worth 1.5 marine tres. As for pres accumulation, both marine and alien rates, taking into account rfd, are similar enough to say that 75 pres vs 75 pres is a cost parity.
tres onos is self explanatory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until you provide the math for your theory that Alien Res=1.5xMarine Res you're pretty much spouting nonsense. If you can't be bothered with doing it, then why should I be bothered with believing you? Marines also do not have an easier time getting res up. Yes, they may build it faster and may build Comm Chairs faster, but you forget the fact alien res nodes and hives build themselves. This is what allows aliens to be so aggressive early game. But that's a debate for a different thread.
Asymmetrical units with different costs are fine in true RTS games, however in a hybrid FPS/RTS game, you are dealing with more than just cost analysis of units, you have to incorporate a general level of player skill as well as what that units strengths are. You want asymmetrical balance detailed out? OK.
Dual Exos are a ranged powerhouse. When given enough line of sight they will prevail against Onos. Onos, prevail in close quarters with limited firing arcs, or short hallways for example. ExoSuits are on the offensive side of the coin, while Onos, with their larger health pools are more on the defensive side of the coin. Again, there is your parity. This is solidifed by the fact that ExoSuits have less mobility then an Onos, making them a "push/all-in" unit, where Onos have the stomp ability, which allows them to disable a group of marines as needed as well as having more mobility than an ExoSuit. This plays into the Onos being a melee only unit. Again, these are the strengths and weaknesses of these units. I'm fine with that.
Again, the parity in asymmetrical games comes from the units themselves and their skills as well as their strengths and weaknesses. <b>NOT from their ability to be fielded.</b> When you allow two units that are supposed to be counters to each other, and you allow one to be fielded more easily than the other, you create an imbalance. This is also why you see most marines forego the regular exosuit and save up for the dual exo. Because the Regular exosuit, puts you in the Onos range and plays to THEIR strength. Regular Exo's are more of a soft-counter to Onos, while Dual Exo's are a true counter to Onos (if played correctly).
Marines cannot drop the 75 res exo
Sentries are obviously cheaper than whips and do a much better job of covering, but drifters are probably 10 times better than trying to place observatories everywhere and their ability counters obs ability
Alien commander has a much easier time of defending base alone because he/she can gorge and drop in a bunch of stuff where marine com can only get a shottie or welder and even this seems rare <i>(most marine comes just don't step out the whole game)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you even read the first post? I KNOW marines cannot drop the Dual Exo. Seriously people, stop just posting nonsense and <b>read and think before you post.</b>
Jesus, this is why I don't bother posting on forums most of the time and why I've mainly "lerked" here for the past 9 years. (pun intended)
Why so hostile?
This isn't a theory, its a general rule of thumb that is immediately obvious when you watch any number of competitive games, and play the game for any decent ammount of hours yourself. It might end up being 1.415, or 1.6333 repeating, but why go to alot of effort to pinpoint an exact number when you can very easily reasonably ballpark it.
I'm actually surprised you seem not to know this already seeing as you're constie from 03. That usually indicates the poster has a good understanding of ns...
I also don't see where the heck all this <b>skill difference</b> and <b>unit ability</b> stuff has come from when you obviously were talking about pure <b>cost imbalance</b> in your OP. You seem to be arguing with yourself just fine, so i'll leave you to it.
*onos egg is a dead horse beaten beyond recognition. It is known by both the community and the devs.
Still no actual evidence to back this up.
_____________
And I've got to agree with Sykomyke on this one. It'd be a very easy way to stop the early Onos, that may I add many people seem to whine about, yet when there's a valid possible fix for the scenario, you all come and complain. It seems to me the community here hates being on the receiving end of it, but loves doing it so much they don't actually want it removed, they just want to complain so it looks like they care.
He's refering to aliens being more starved for p-res than marines are in an average game, which is true generally speaking. Marines are less pressured to use their p-res earlier on because they're arguably consistently stronger than skulks and their p-res dumps are not generally full on upgrades but rather side grades. Additionally, marines tend to have higher res node counts throughout the game, and more nodes earlier on, as they don't have to wait for cyst networks to reach node locations.
Though that is probably too much to ask for, so check this out.
Marines buy weapons, when they die they drop weapons, other marines pick them up. Aliens get lifeforms, but when they die another alien can't pick it up?! Wtf imbalance? Buff alienz plz.
You only get to play Onos 1 time in a game, if you stay skulk or gorge the entire time, then you have to spend like 1 min out of combat to get it.
Where as Marines when they buy a Exo, which is cheap btw and you can easily affort enough res for 2 exo's in a match, you get them instantly when you buy them.
But sure, make it so when i evolve to onos i takes 5-10sec or instantly like Exo, and make onos cheaper. then i wouldn mind at all.
I still think its imba that Exo suit can just be bought instantly no waiting required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you and the OP. I think fade should be buffed and onos nerfed a bit but also lower res.
The exo suits comm drops should have to be "built" just like anything else however comm should be able to drop dual mini gun
I for one think the jetpacker should get a 25% damage reduction from lerks and Exo suits should take 25% more damage from skulks.
Though that is probably too much to ask for, so check this out.
Marines buy weapons, when they die they drop weapons, other marines pick them up. Aliens get lifeforms, but when they die another alien can't pick it up?! Wtf imbalance? Buff alienz plz.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know exactly what I'm talking about. I can guarantee you that I've been playing and supporting the NS community far longer than you have.
And that's not me being hostile; that's me being a realist who gets extremely frustrated when people don't respond to the topic at hand without first reading the posts thoroughly. And this thread isn't about marines being able to recycle weapons dropped from other marines, this is about the comparison about Exo-Suits (both variants) versus Onos (and fades to a lesser degree).
So thank you, you have further proved my point by not staying on topic and/or not fully reading the initial post as well.
I cant even really tell if you and I are playing the same game. Most of the times I take the job of alien commander and on most maps, I've got an easy access to 5 defensible resource nodes. Sure, for the first minute or two I only have one because I'm spreading cysts and the harvesters are building but after that barely noticeable period of time I'm getting 5 resource per tick while the marines are struggling to maintain their first 3. Also, the comment about pres also makes little difference because while a good alien commander will have 5-6 nodes while the marines have 2-3, they will be dropping Onos at twice the rate the marines are dropping SINGLE exos. And single exos are crappy, you may as well be in a jetpack against an Onos. And dont even get me started on late game, where a couple whips with a shade and 2 crags behind them will actually never die to ANYTHING save an arc + dual minigun push, while as a smart skulk or lerk can easily harass an extractor even if it is covered with pretty worthless sentries.
I also can't believe someone even mentioned the marines sprint ability as an advantage of mobility over the wall climbing vent hopping 700 mph skulks :)
Basically all I want is the insane regen of crags and aliens fixed and the ability to drop dual exos!
*Furthermore, I can't stress to you enough the advantage of not having to have any member of your team anywhere you are building anything... if I lose an extractor, by the time the marine moves on or is killed, I can simply replace it while as a marine commander, i've got to dedicate at least one or two players to take it back, meanwhile probably losing something else somewhere else. And if the marines get to the extractor and start to replace it, they can get pounced on pretty easily and don't have the alien's advantage of being able to run away.*
And that's not me being hostile; that's me being a realist who gets extremely frustrated when people don't respond to the topic at hand without first reading the posts thoroughly. And this thread isn't about marines being able to recycle weapons dropped from other marines, this is about the comparison about Exo-Suits (both variants) versus Onos (and fades to a lesser degree).
So thank you, you have further proved my point by not staying on topic and/or not fully reading the initial post as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets say the Onos requires the exact same amount of research as the Exo did, or vice versa. The Onos is still better than the exo and costs the same 75 resources. So even more imbalanced?
oh dear... where to begin.
Is the Exo at the end of a long hall? Are there armor upgrades? What tech are we on? Are there Macs? Gorges? Can either side force the engagement?
oh dear... where to begin.
Is the Exo at the end of a long hall? Are there armor upgrades? What tech are we on? Are there Macs? Gorges? Can either side force the engagement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While there are a lot of factors going into a Solo (dual-gun 3/3) Exo vs Solo Onos (3 hive) fight, the vast majority of scenarios is in favor of the Onos in build 229. With Regen, the Onos can turn a corner and use regen to kite the Exo until reaching a suitable health to ensure victory. Simply put, in the majority of scenarios, the Onos determines when and where to fight and for how long. Onos is also the only one capable of a potential retreat, whereas the Exo is all-in.
Melee kiting range. Hmmm yes... definitely.
Regeneration is a massive disadvantage against an exo. Missing two hits on the exo would likely end in the Onos going down in a 1v1.
What kind of evidence are you looking for? I've quite clearly outlined where i'm drawing this number from - competitive games and extensive pub experience with many different skill ranges. And by competitive, i simply mean the 'metagame' developed to it's stable endpoint.
<!--quoteo(post=2028486:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:30 PM:name=Sykomyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sykomyke @ Nov 19 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's not me being hostile; that's me being a realist who gets extremely frustrated when people don't respond to the topic at hand without first reading the posts thoroughly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then stop sending me passive aggressive pm's. sheeesh. You think i post to gain respect and social notoriety? When someone posts valid criticism in a neutral tone, you should learn to not take it as a personal attack. I read all your posts the whole way through and responded to your op in a reasonable manner.
Also, if people are going to go down the "provide maths or its nonsense route", they should realise they're playing with a double-edged sword. Where is the proof that backs your implicit assumption of 1 marine tres = 1 alien tres? You only need to play ns2 in a structured manner to realise that with competent and equally skilled teams, aliens will on average have 3 harvestors to 4-5 marine extractors. That's just how the standard metagame is currently due to infestation, harvestor build time, and marine sprint (repeating myself so its clear i'm not pulling numbers out of my ass).
<u><b>Regarding exo vs onos</b></u>
<b>Regen</b>
Even in its current broken state, this doesn't tip the onos vs exo scale. There's no point in being close to invulnerable when you still can't challenge or push away a dual exo. All you need to do is push the onos to a hive and force an engagement. Welder/gorge presence only makes certain you reach this endpoint.
<b>Marine weapons/armour</b>
We can make a pretty safe assumption about average marine upgrade levels since we know total marine tres accumulated correlates very closely to how fast marines get 75pres (unless there's very high RT turnover). If you're having a decent resource game and have marines hitting 75 at 15 minutes, you're also probably going to have at the very least w2a2. I'm pretty sure w2a2 dual exo's will beat caranoses if you're min/maxing your positioning.