The 12v12 Holy Trinity
Rokiyo
A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">W3, A3, IPx3</div>I've been trying my hand and commanding a few marine games on 12v12 servers over the last couple of days, and I'm beginning to notice a couple of interesting balance issues.
First up, is how easily aliens can become egg-locked in the opening few minutes of the game. Marine teams who capitalize on this early on get a big leg-up on map control.
Secondly, is how incredibly powerful a team of W3/A3 marines with 3 Infantry Portals can be. With constant concentrated fire from 11 L3 LMG marines, I've seen everything from concerted Onos/Gorge/Fade assaults to mature whip swarms being fended off with relative ease.
From here the games seem to go one of two ways:
<ul><li>Early map control was good, proceed to jetpacks & grenade launchers, watch as hives start tumbling.</li><li>Early map control was poor, lengthy turtle commences (my most recent one lasted 66 minutes).</li></ul>
Even with aliens being supposedly overpowered in this patch, I'm seeing still seeing a personal 50/50 win ratio as a marine commander by focusing on map control and weapons lab upgrades (this is on 24 player servers only, mind you). Either the aliens out-harass my resource nodes and I end up in a turtle, or my marines manage to hold atleast 4 res nodes and 2 command chairs and victory becomes inevitable (keeping in mind that this is allowing the aliens to have 4 hives and anywhere up to 6 or 7 res nodes, and they still lose).
When I end up in a turtle situation, the outcome depends entirely on how well I placed my weapons lab. When it goes down, the team pretty much instantly crumples.
PS - I've found the most sure-fire way to forfeit a game on larger servers is to research Exos. I flat out refuse to start researching them until absolutely everything else is done, and even then it's a huge risk as I quickly start losing bases and res nodes shortly after the exos start rolling into hives.
First up, is how easily aliens can become egg-locked in the opening few minutes of the game. Marine teams who capitalize on this early on get a big leg-up on map control.
Secondly, is how incredibly powerful a team of W3/A3 marines with 3 Infantry Portals can be. With constant concentrated fire from 11 L3 LMG marines, I've seen everything from concerted Onos/Gorge/Fade assaults to mature whip swarms being fended off with relative ease.
From here the games seem to go one of two ways:
<ul><li>Early map control was good, proceed to jetpacks & grenade launchers, watch as hives start tumbling.</li><li>Early map control was poor, lengthy turtle commences (my most recent one lasted 66 minutes).</li></ul>
Even with aliens being supposedly overpowered in this patch, I'm seeing still seeing a personal 50/50 win ratio as a marine commander by focusing on map control and weapons lab upgrades (this is on 24 player servers only, mind you). Either the aliens out-harass my resource nodes and I end up in a turtle, or my marines manage to hold atleast 4 res nodes and 2 command chairs and victory becomes inevitable (keeping in mind that this is allowing the aliens to have 4 hives and anywhere up to 6 or 7 res nodes, and they still lose).
When I end up in a turtle situation, the outcome depends entirely on how well I placed my weapons lab. When it goes down, the team pretty much instantly crumples.
PS - I've found the most sure-fire way to forfeit a game on larger servers is to research Exos. I flat out refuse to start researching them until absolutely everything else is done, and even then it's a huge risk as I quickly start losing bases and res nodes shortly after the exos start rolling into hives.
Comments
What number of players is UWE balancing NS2 around?
Professional matchces are doing a 7v7 format, I believe?
The game is reasonably balanced in a range of 6v6 up to around 9v9. But the higher these numbers go the easier it is to egglock the aliens. Map size and close spawning also has an influence on this of course.
Nope
I'd actually say maewheens are over-powered this patch/version.
Sure it's boring and repetitive, but if you have even 1 team mate listening to you, you're guaranteed to secure 4 res towers and get armour 3, dual MG exos while the rest of your team is screwing around, farming kills in /near the enemy hive.
In ranged units vs melee fights, the advantage always goes to the ranged units as unit numbers grow. 11 marines vs 11 enzymed skulks for example. With 11 AR's of concentrated fire, at least 5 of the skulks should be dead before they get to the marines at all. At which point, only 6 skulks now need to kill 11 marines in close quarters combat. They lose the numbers game far more rapidly the bigger the skirmishes get.
@ OP: yeah, that's the big thing for large player numbers. ALWAYS rush upgrades. for every weapon upgrade it's effectiveness is times 11, for every armor upgrade it's effectiveness is times 11. Nothing else can come even remotely close to being as cost effective as upgrades. The same goes for alien upgrade chambers. Regen and carapasc early are pretty much a must. The 6 minute onos rush isn't nearly as scary when you have teams of 11 to shoot at it.
That's why no smart skulk would stop to engage the Marines; they'd hit the CC and end it within the first 30 seconds of the game.
Most servers having 18+ people is what leads to a lot of problems. Most notably, a Marines team that plays like a group of Skulks out to harass the Aliens nodes and cyst chains. That's probably one of the most effective things a Marines team can do, and it's a bit silly in how much more effective they are at it over skulks when they assume that play style.
It simply benefits the Marines team far more to kill an Alien harvester than it is for the Aliens to kill a marines Extractor. It also becomes easier for them to do so in larger servers.
I tend to shy away from anything over 9v9, so I can't say what the aliens are up to, but if I was commanding them I would try to have 3 on patrol and 6 on command chair hit-squad duty at all times with stragglers doing what ever it is they do... combined firepower of just 4 upgraded marines is a frightening thing to see as an alien commander because nothing short of an Onos can even get near them... the game will favor the marine players the longer it goes on unless there's a massive bloom of Onos about the time that the first prototypes are rolling out.
Relying purely on level 3 weapons is a hell of alot bigger gamble than exos. L3 weps requires your marines to have aim and caps their dps output at LMG levels. L1 weps on exos does more dps than 2-3 marines put together, plus it's got more time to live PLUS it's harder to miss because the spray is a small cone, compared to a LMG's pinpoint precision.
Thinking exos are a bad idea is the entire reason people are under the impression that aliens are OP.
I think the combination of weapons 3, armor 3 and 3 infantry portals is overpowered on large servers. I'm saying that this combination of marine tech & equipment is too effective on larger marine teams.
I am also suggesting that Exos on <b>very large servers</b> is a bad idea because you are taking the risk that too many people go Exo at the same time, or that all of the Exos you do have clump together in area of the map. So many marines <i>want</i> to be the big bad exo that it can be quite challenging to prevent over-investment.
One or two exos defending a key location or help a hive push can make a big difference, but watching 4 or 5 exos stomping up from Flow Control to Pipeworks in more time that it takes to lose both is quite frustrating.