Marine's Buff Suggestion
SpaceJew
Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A way to balance outside of pure Alien Nerfs.</div>This is a repost from <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125163&st=20&gopid=2033752&#entry2033752" target="_blank">this thread</a> but I felt it deserved it's own topic simply because I think it's a superb idea and wanted to see what the community thought about it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building defensively is the #1 cause of Marine's losses. Aliens play very aggressively, and are rewarded for it. Marines, when played very aggresively, are also rewarded for it.
Everything in the Alien arsenal supports aggressive play outside of the Shade hive. The Medpack/ammo spam supports aggressive Marines play, but that system needs to be automated in my opinion. Let your Marines spend P.Res on Ammo, Health drops, and perhaps even ping with an available Obs and you will see an amazing increase in Marines win-rates, especially if you let the Marine commander spend T.Res on them as well. It would be balanced enough in my opinion by the requirement to have your Marines carry welders and spend P.Res on things other than guns/JP/Exo. Also, a welder seriously dampens a Marine's ability to outright kill alien structures and would give the Aliens time to arrive, kill, and replace Cysts on damaged structures. This would also give the Marines the benefit of much faster structure building which would encourage playing smart versus being Rambo.
Marines simply need to be more effective individually and in groups, as it stands if you're a crappy Marine's player you are a sitting duck for even an equally crappy Alien. Ammo and health drops by the Marine with their P.Res should also obviously be limited to out of combat with perhaps a 3 to 5 second wait between drops. Again, just my opinion but it sounds better than constantly nerfing everything the Aliens can do to try and make things easier for noobish Marines. If might also require an extra research tree for the Observatory, but that would need to be tested to be confirmed. It would also rely on rebuffing the Aliens structures, and would ultimately be a win for both teams to be more fun.
Why it wasn't designed that way in the first place is a mystery to me, as the Marine's commander should be more interested in manipulating MAC's, ARC's, dropping buildings, and securing locations. Basically the same as the Aliens commander, only with a different twist. You know, just like the entire rest of the game. Symmetry through asymmetrical balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you guys think? I personally believe it would do a lot more to even out the game play and make it more fun for both teams, while freeing up the Marines commander to be more strategic and micromanage actual individual players less while micromanaging his structures more. I just think the Marines command is uninviting to newer players, and this would help new Marine commanders be competitive without nerfing a single thing <i>and</i> wouldn't significantly change game play for commanders who are already great at doing their job.
It's telling that someone always jumps into the Hive right at the start of a game, whereas the Marines CC has a tendency to be unoccupied for the first 30 seconds of a match. People <i>want</i> to command Aliens, while people are intimidated by the Marines command so much that they <i>refuse</i> to ever get into the chair.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building defensively is the #1 cause of Marine's losses. Aliens play very aggressively, and are rewarded for it. Marines, when played very aggresively, are also rewarded for it.
Everything in the Alien arsenal supports aggressive play outside of the Shade hive. The Medpack/ammo spam supports aggressive Marines play, but that system needs to be automated in my opinion. Let your Marines spend P.Res on Ammo, Health drops, and perhaps even ping with an available Obs and you will see an amazing increase in Marines win-rates, especially if you let the Marine commander spend T.Res on them as well. It would be balanced enough in my opinion by the requirement to have your Marines carry welders and spend P.Res on things other than guns/JP/Exo. Also, a welder seriously dampens a Marine's ability to outright kill alien structures and would give the Aliens time to arrive, kill, and replace Cysts on damaged structures. This would also give the Marines the benefit of much faster structure building which would encourage playing smart versus being Rambo.
Marines simply need to be more effective individually and in groups, as it stands if you're a crappy Marine's player you are a sitting duck for even an equally crappy Alien. Ammo and health drops by the Marine with their P.Res should also obviously be limited to out of combat with perhaps a 3 to 5 second wait between drops. Again, just my opinion but it sounds better than constantly nerfing everything the Aliens can do to try and make things easier for noobish Marines. If might also require an extra research tree for the Observatory, but that would need to be tested to be confirmed. It would also rely on rebuffing the Aliens structures, and would ultimately be a win for both teams to be more fun.
Why it wasn't designed that way in the first place is a mystery to me, as the Marine's commander should be more interested in manipulating MAC's, ARC's, dropping buildings, and securing locations. Basically the same as the Aliens commander, only with a different twist. You know, just like the entire rest of the game. Symmetry through asymmetrical balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you guys think? I personally believe it would do a lot more to even out the game play and make it more fun for both teams, while freeing up the Marines commander to be more strategic and micromanage actual individual players less while micromanaging his structures more. I just think the Marines command is uninviting to newer players, and this would help new Marine commanders be competitive without nerfing a single thing <i>and</i> wouldn't significantly change game play for commanders who are already great at doing their job.
It's telling that someone always jumps into the Hive right at the start of a game, whereas the Marines CC has a tendency to be unoccupied for the first 30 seconds of a match. People <i>want</i> to command Aliens, while people are intimidated by the Marines command so much that they <i>refuse</i> to ever get into the chair.
Comments
It's annoying as aliens to constantly have to deal with rambos in your harvesters and upgrades, but the game forces you into that right now. There should be some ebb and flow, but currently the game heavily encourages both teams to just constantly smash into eachother almost mindlessly.
If you want a game where the FPS players can do everything themselves, Halo 4 is still fairly active. This game is (still) about more than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I pretty much agree with you. Good Marine commanders already make heavy use of ammo and health pack spam to support aggressive players, but letting individual Marines make that strategic choice themselves would do a lot in making the Marine Command easier for new players while allowing 'good' Marine commanders to make use of an already existing mechanic. It also would allow newer Marine players to make use of their P.Res to offset their lack of skill, much like the Alien chamber upgrades. The Marines commander already plunks down a forward armory to support Marines versus dropping Ammo and Health for more efficient T.Res expenditure for bad teams, and they still would for the armor repair, but the main reason they do this is because it lets them focus on other aspects of play rather than being a med/ammo/gun vendor. This is why, I believe, you don't see much utilization of MAC's or ARC's until late-mid game or early-end game from intermediate commanders.
Marine command simply demands a much, much higher skill level than the Alien command currently requires. Especially with Alien structures being nerfed into oblivion pretty much across the board. Bringing that skill level down, but retaining the high upper-skill level, is something that would go further to 'balance' the game than simply removing any effective options for the Alien commander.
If you want a game where the FPS players can do everything themselves, Halo 4 is still fairly active. This game is (still) about more than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The very same could literally be said of the Aliens commander at this point, and I think that the commanders 'largest contribution to gameplay' is a big factor in the Marines losing the game as it stands now. Letting the Marine commander build structures without smart Marines would at least give him the option to focus on something other than spamming health and ammo. You might be right on this one, but I think it would do more to 'balance' things out than constant Alien nerfs.
Also, the result of those nerfs has relegated the Alien command to nothing but building res nodes and upgrading one of four upgrades up until the end-game. I specifically mentioned to leave ammo and health drops from the commander in the game, but giving an automated option would help mitigate a newer commander being unable to multitask and hence lead to more Marines victories without any nerfs. IF you're unwilling to make Marines command an easier, more inviting option to new players you're going to end up with very few new players being interested in commanding. That's going to lead to what we have now, an imbalance in Alien wins.
Sure you can blame it on OP Aliens, but aren't buff's to the Marines perhaps a better option when the Aliens are already bereft of any real strategic options in the current build?
Just something to think about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a game where players are self-sufficient. People depend on their team and their commander. That isn't about to change, nor should it.
This isn't a game where players are self-sufficient. People depend on their team and their commander. That isn't about to change, nor should it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, but all the other reasons I gave that you ignored are a pretty good reason. You can say it's fine because the Marine commander can make a huge difference, and I agree, but making that huge of a difference requires a commander with excellent skills. Getting those skills requires experience. Getting that experience requires a lot of losses. A lot of losses obviously leads to a lot of Alien wins, and higher Alien win rates result in Marines not having fun through something beyond their individual control.
Eventually, it also leads to imbalanced high-skill vs high-skill play. Which is also something NS2 is experiencing with it leaned heavily in the Marines favor. This is directly related to the Alien nerfs required to make starting Marine commanders win more.
At least that's how I see it. You obviously don't agree, but apparently you don't agree because you think Marines are fine and it's the Alien team that's innately overpowered. I disagree, because I see newer Marine teams struggling with a lot of losses due to poor play from overwhelmed new Marine commanders. I also see lots of Alien losses to truly gifted Marines teams. I also know which one I encounter more often, since I see the Aliens team win fairly consistently.
I don't see how balancing the Marine commander for beginning players is a bad thing while leaving it alone for highly skilled players, unless you also believe that giving individual marines a small health boost or ammo at a personal P.Res cost would lead to even more one-sided wins in the Marines favor. (Which it could, since ultimately good players are already incredibly aggressive. This would allow them to be aggressive even without intimate command support, by trading their own personal resources for it and ultimately saving his Commander T.Res for more 'important' things.)
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's telling that someone always jumps into the Hive right at the start of a game, whereas the Marines CC has a tendency to be unoccupied for the first 30 seconds of a match. People want to command Aliens, while people are intimidated by the Marines command so much that they refuse to ever get into the chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a real problem, any which way you cut it.
Or you would spend your intermediate time producing MAC's to free up more front line soldiers for the assault, while producing a few ARC's to help out with the eventual assault. Ultimately, you would end up with more T.Res that would simply be shifted from what you would have spent in MedPacks and Ammo onto creating more support units to help out your team. I have fun as a Marine commander by using MAC units to build up my own infrastructure, and having more front line troops is always a good thing. It essentially shifts the costs of medpacks and ammo onto P.Res, which helps to make up for the far cheaper weapons that can be picked up repeatedly. With a good commander, you won't see any difference besides having an alternative option. With bad commanders, you at least won't be completely screwed.
It might just be a difference in what we think is 'fun', but Aliens use whips far more often than Marines use ARC's. They're there to be used, not ignored in favor of spamming meds and ammo IMO. Excellent Marine commanders already do this, it would just make it a little easier for newer commanders. <i>It's an alternative, not a replacement</i>.
Ultimately though you could be totally right. I'm just addressing something I've seen first hand, and that's a lack of good Marine commanders and a lack of people that are even willing to try.
Also, if you played NS1 you probably started a bit ahead than many newcomers to NS2. While they aren't exactly the same, if you played NS1 you're probably at least somewhat familiar with updated versions of things. For instance, you probably already knew basically what an ARC was intended to do as it's similar to a Siege turret in NS1, yet operates very differently in NS2.
Arguably, you haven't been a new commander since NS1. Just a disoriented transplant, rather than a totally inexperienced newcomer.
I also don't like it because giving individual players more autonomy like that would diminish the bond between commander and players. Knowing you can heal up and replenish ammo at your will would also encourage ramboism.
In any case, I'm not convinced.
As for ARCs, they are expensive and simply not worth getting ahead of weapons and armor upgrades, unless the devs make a change somewhere they will always come at the end of a round. You can not compare them to whips, offence vs defense, where as I have seen a lot of turrets used. Again with MACs, unless you are playing with very small teams they are just a waste of res, they build and repair much slower then marines and are a significant investment to make early in the game and by the end game there is not a lot that needs building.
Also, since no comm would get ARCs before weapon and armor upgrades and without the need to spend res on med/ammo drops that means those upgrades would come much sooner in the game and would swing balance considerably in the marine's favor.
I also don't like it because giving individual players more autonomy like that would diminish the bond between commander and players. Knowing you can heal up and replenish ammo at your will would also encourage ramboism.
In any case, I'm not convinced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think a team that uses their P.Res to stay alive will be punished end-game, as they will ultimately retain more Resource nodes and effectively harass the Aliens team with less micromanagement involved. If they still have empty pockets at the end of the game, they will lose through being outplayed the entire game. Same as it is now.
If anything, it would require more team-play. You would need Marines to follow your ARC's, just like now, and would actually make it easier for a newer commander to have ARC's follow Exo's into an Alien held area. The only 'team play' you can see at the moment is a Marine commander mass spamming health and ammo into a hive during a major assault or to support Rambo's that are sniping res towers and upgrades. Removing the requirement for the commander to keep track of ultimately useful Rambo's while still babysitting tech tree's and NPC units is a bit much at first. It seems to stay tough for a while too, judging from the Marines win/loss ratio.
<!--quoteo(post=2033850:date=Nov 24 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Nov 24 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is difficult to new players because it is considerably different then any other game most people have played, however, marine commander plays just like any other RTS, once you know the basic strategy that 90% of all pub games follow (which you can learn as a foot soldier) it is an easy transition. I commanded very few games in NS1 and it had been 6 years at least between when I stopped playing NS1 and started playing NS2 so while I understood all the basic concepts I was hardly in practice. I also joined the beta pretty late so I know what it is like to be joining a game that everyone else is already better at then you.
As for ARCs, they are expensive and simply not worth getting ahead of weapons and armor upgrades, unless the devs make a change somewhere they will always come at the end of a round. You can not compare them to whips, offence vs defense, where as I have seen a lot of turrets used. Again with MACs, unless you are playing with very small teams they are just a waste of res, they build and repair much slower then marines and are a significant investment to make early in the game and by the end game there is not a lot that needs building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, since no comm would get ARCs before weapon and armor upgrades and without the need to spend res on med/ammo drops that means those upgrades would come much sooner in the game and would swing balance considerably in the marine's favor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never implied that they should, you can do those two things at the same time. Especially if you're saving some T.Res by not feeding health into players as much. That's kind of the point, as it stands ARC's are rarely used due to high micromanagement requirements. It's simply more effective to blow your T.Res on medpacks and ammo, which means those units will see little use outside of very situational plays for very highly skilled commanders. It's surprisingly effective to wheel two ARC's in along with a Marine assault and park them within range of a hive or forward position. It's just difficult to micromanage that along with trying to upgrade. That's why most don't bother until they already have all the upgrades. It's too much work to use them otherwise without being intimately familiar with the game. (And it still rewards people for being that familiar.)
ARC's are still easily negated by the Aliens team, making it easier to field them mid-game isn't unbalanced when Aliens already have Bile Bomb. I don't forsee it being a serious issue, and would force conflict instead of resulting in a DMZ while both teams res horde for end-game units.
Besides the goal, in my mind, is to make Marines more powerful for newer players to make them more competitive versus a less nerfed Aliens team while not giving a significant advantage to more experienced Marine commanders. All the arguments to keep the Marines command as-is seem to stem from the belief that Aliens are currently OP. The thing is, they aren't. The best alien teams seem to consistently lose up against the best Marines teams. That seems to indicate, to me, that Aliens are simply easier to play for newer players as that's where all the Aliens win's occur.
would make it less OP when a good team uses it, and makes it more realistic for marines to actually function competently in pubs
it would solve at least one of the things that make this game poorly balanced because they're trying to make 1 game for everyone and that just doesn't work if things like bad aim, late/non-existent drops and framerate issues have a much bigger impact on only one of the teams but aren't problems for the pros
it's not just for the commander. even a good 6v6 commander will have trouble responding to requests from more than 5 people whose voice / locations aren't memorized, and there's the whole component of guessing whether someone is even worth healing...
I did, perhaps you aren't sure as you failed to read my reply?
This is quite literally intended to buff the Marines at a specific juncture of the game, namely early game, in an attempt to reduce multitasking pressure on new Marine Commanders. You replied by saying that this would buff the Marines team, which was ultimately the entire point of my post.
If you want a specific response, this is the only part I didn't specifically reference, so here you go:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for ARCs, they are expensive and simply not worth getting ahead of weapons and armor upgrades, unless the devs make a change somewhere they will always come at the end of a round. You can not compare them to whips, offence vs defense, where as I have seen a lot of turrets used. Again with MACs, unless you are playing with very small teams they are just a waste of res, they build and repair much slower then marines and are a significant investment to make early in the game and by the end game there is not a lot that needs building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are entirely correct if no changes are made. You are not necessarily correct if changes are made. I have suggested changes. You have failed to take them into account in your example. You realize that not dropping Med/Ammo will save T.Res, and then it would follow that your T.Res could either be used in your example to get upgrades faster or alternatively to build NPC units that provide teamwork support to your ground troops. You could also do both, depending ultimately on your level of map control. As Marines are losing more games at the moment, and have consistently lost more often over the last several patches that have nerfed Aliens quite significantly, perhaps it follows that making Marines easier would give them a boost versus dumbing down the other team to the point that they must overachieve to win. It's not there yet, but even with fairly big nerfs Marines are still losing more than they win.
Maybe the problem is just that good Marines are quite definitely stronger than Aliens, but in public matches they are losing more often. I don't think anyone thought that Aliens were winning more competitive games before, yet Aliens have been at the business end of the nerf bat while Marines have received buffs. So why do the Marines continue to lose? I submit that it's the skill level required to win as a Marine commander, usually compounded with more players on non-competitive servers. It simply requires too much to micromanage 11 players versus 5 or 7 people. This would help to alleviate that, but perhaps it breaks the small player games at the expensive of the larger ones. That too is possible. However, I think it at least merits being looked into. Marines will still play differently from Aliens, and Marines will still have to cooperate quite a bit with their commander. it will encourage more team work for Marines, and make commanding easier for both newer players and veterans alike.
If needed, costs could be adjusted accordingly if early ARC or MAC becomes a problem or if rushing upgrades with the extra resources ends up with them coming out earlier.
(Although I still think Marine Upgrades should require an extra tech point per tier and require 3 Tech Points for Dual-Exo while giving the Marine commander the ability to drop Dual Exo as well with the third Tech point. Yes, it somewhat mirrors the Aliens, but without limits upgrades are always going to have the potential to be game breaking by having strong early map control. It was true of the Aliens, and you'll find it to be true with the Marines as well.)
Pretty much every game I recently played on the official servers had marines dominate aliens - often successfully tearing their second hive down before it could go up. Saw this happening on either side of the medal. But it's really not fun these days to play alien after all the nerfs they got because there does not seem to be any way to successfully counter a *somewhat* organized marine team at the moment - even if the alien commander has good organization and voice comm as well.
There don't seem to be nearly as many noob marines around as you might want to think lately.
Pretty much every game I recently played on the official servers had marines dominate aliens - often successfully tearing their second hive down before it could go up. Saw this happening on either side of the medal. But it's really not fun these days to play alien after all the nerfs they got because there does not seem to be any way to successfully counter a *somewhat* organized marine team at the moment - even if the alien commander has good organization and voice comm as well.
There don't seem to be nearly as many noob marines around as you might want to think lately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the results of the alien nerfs have more to do with higher amounts of Marine wins over Marines teams being necessarily better. I was going off yesterdays NS2Stats, although it seems to be down for me today so I'm not sure what the up-to-the-minute numbers are.
Either way you're correct that Aliens are at the disadvantage, the only reason they win more is directly because of crappy commanders. (And they might not be winning half the time either, without numbers to look at.) That's why this change needs to be in conjunction with rolling back some of the nerfs to Aliens. Aliens were actually in a good spot about two or three patches ago minus the Early Onos issue. That obviously needed fixing, but along with the rest of the changes its pretty much gutted the core Alien gameplay.
You can obviously still win versus a crappy Marines team, but that's about what it takes with no mid-game options worth mentioning as far as upgrades or structures. The Abilities are still useful, but there are exactly four upgrades and four abilities that you can research on two hives. That's pretty much it, and frankly that's lame and generally unfun. Drifters add a little spice, but hardly enough to keep a commander occupied until end-game.
Compared to the Marines, it's actually laughable at the difference in outright complexity there is now. It wasn't really comparable before, but at least each structure was somehow <i>useful</i> on their own. Marines need to be dumbed down for the sake of the game, and I think this change would go a long way to balancing the human requirement to successfully fulfill the Marines commander role.
Just because some people are inhumanly good at Marine commanding, doesn't mean that even 10% of the player population can do it well. (And yes I pulled that number out of thin air, but considering how much game play was removed to make it possible for newb Marine Commanders to be even close to 50% win-rate it sure seems accurate.)
I still think it's telling that the Alien Hive command is only empty for a split second on Aliens team while the Marines CC often times sits empty for thirty seconds or more on Marines. Obviously this isn't always the case, but it's a far more common situation than people might like to admit.
I don't think marines need to be more aggressive, I think aliens need to be given more to do. I never played NS1 but I like the thought of gorges having to build. Then aliens would need to protect them, or atleast someone would have to talk across the map to do something like plop down the harvester.
When marines are trying to build up in a room, they have to build and defend against aliens, when aliens are building up in a room... they are all aggression. Say if aliens want to build a hive, they go in and clear the room (or it already is because marines aren't there because aliens are out attacking their stuff and they have to save it) and the comm does the rest, the aliens go off and play.
Why do you think aliens complain so much about nerfs even though they are winning so much? Cause if aliens were just as strong as marines, then marines would have no chance, because they actually got other jobs to do, not just fight.
I disagree, I comm'ed alot of games both NS1 and 2 and the amount of stress is about the same and if anything a little bit more towards 2 as you have macs/arcs to click around and setup.
I don't think marines need to be more aggressive, I think aliens need to be given more to do. I never played NS1 but I like the thought of gorges having to build. Then aliens would need to protect them, or atleast someone would have to talk across the map to do something like plop down the harvester.
When marines are trying to build up in a room, they have to build and defend against aliens, when aliens are building up in a room... they are all aggression. Say if aliens want to build a hive, they go in and clear the room (or it already is because marines aren't there because aliens are out attacking their stuff and they have to save it) and the comm does the rest, the aliens go off and play.
Why do you think aliens complain so much about nerfs even though they are winning so much? Cause if aliens were just as strong as marines, then marines would have no chance, because they actually got other jobs to do, not just fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read through the thread, you'll find that I was suggesting this as an alternate change versus all the Aliens nerfs that have resulted in less to do for Alien commanders. This would buff the Marines in the sense they would have an easier time as a new commander against an Alien team that actually has teeth. I believe it even says that in the threads title, in fact.
This is based on the premise that many Marines losses were related to the difficulty of commanding as a new commander, while now it would seem Marines are doing well because the Alien commander is virtually powerless beyond replacing harvesters and upgrading alien abilities. Shade, shift, and crag have all been nerfed into the ground recently instead of lowering the difficulty of Marine command. I feel that would be a more fun option, as constantly nerfing things is less fun than buffing things in my opinion.
Also, it would appear that NS2Stats report a 58% win margin for Aliens at the moment even after <i>massive</i> nerfs. This seems to support my premise.
First time I did it was alien. I had no idea what to do and severely neglected a lot of things, even allowing a backdoor to my main hive. We still won despite marines raping the faces off my team and taking out two hives (which were quickly rebuilt and fully defended by buildings). I played safe and defensively the entire time.
Different story when I tried the marine commander. This is also the reason why I will never do marine commander roles ever until something is done. It's too difficult and intimidating.
I have to immediately slam my balls onto a hot iron push the tar out of the aliens or rush them just to be able to win. This would require full knowledge of every hotkey so I don't waste a second thinking about what upgrade I want to tick. If I even have to think about what button to press I'm likely already behind.
Building a defense or two first? You're going to lose because the aliens have immediately secured their second hive room while you barely got your second resource node.
Rookies in a commander RTS role typically do not go aggressive---it's unsafe because they don't know what to do! This game just punishes you for trying to be safe on the marine side.
It's too intimidating to be a marine commander and almost all the games I play it goes unmanned for a few minutes because people don't want to do it. Heaven forbid a rookie steps up because they get flamed for losing and that leads to the intimidation and thus that's one less person willing to command.
Oh they have an onos? <i>Everyone hits f4.</i> Seeing an onos makes everyone think "You lose". I'm starting to get this mentality too because what are you going to do to an onos? Peck at it so it runs away so often that it can't ever be killed? Nevermind that 5 people have opened fire with entire clips of a fully upgraded LMG on it all at once--he's going to get away easy.
The only time I've seen an alien team lose was from an AFK/idling commander, outnumbering on a low population server, or someone spamming all the resources away as grief.
I've been in many games where skulks would kamikaze run the entire game and still end up winning even though they died 16 times to marines--this is something that should cause you to lose because of feeding resources over.
Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. Don't feel bad Flying, I have almost 200 hours sunk into NS2 and I still get flustered as Marines commander at times. It's usually the medpack/ammo spam that gets the short end of the stick with me, since I focus on buildings more than pushing. As Marines, that can easily lose you the game.
I agree with what your saying about how things are now, I guess it's just more that I want commanding to be made harder for aliens, not make commanding easier for marines. My whole whiney ending in what I was saying is just from seeing posts wanting to keep nerfing aliens, it had no place in this thread sorry.
I am still hoping that aliens will switch back to having gorges plant buildings, seems like a big part of what makes aliens win more lately is the ability to plant buildings without a lifeform actually having to be present.
This. I really hate the fact that there is no cooperation between alien commander and player in order to expand into bases.
Whereas the marines are severely hampered by this mechanic. They have to go in a group, stop and slowly build, then get their faces raped off immediately by skulks while the alien commander continues to spam cysts everywhere to almost instantly expand a base.
Marines you have to be cooperative. The downside is that this is slower.
Getting weapons will dramatically drain your resources and these are difficult to gain back once at a disadvantage (which is almost all the time).
Aliens you are greatly rewarded for everyone (even commander) for doing their own thing. You can zerg rush the marines easy. Alien players don't have to worry about resources at all unless using better life forms. They get major upgrades for free and relatively fast upon respawn.
Whereas the marines are severely hampered by this mechanic. They have to go in a group, stop and slowly build, then get their faces raped off immediately by skulks while the alien commander continues to spam cysts everywhere to almost instantly expand a base.
Marines you have to be cooperative. The downside is that this is slower.
Getting weapons will dramatically drain your resources and these are difficult to gain back once at a disadvantage (which is almost all the time).
Aliens you are greatly rewarded for everyone (even commander) for doing their own thing. You can zerg rush the marines easy. Alien players don't have to worry about resources at all unless using better life forms. They get major upgrades for free and relatively fast upon respawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about that honestly. Gorges are incredibly useful to build structures in the current game, they just don't pay for them nor can they decide what goes where. They <i>can</i> build it fast, which is actually a pretty interesting teamwork mechanic. Commander places it, Gorges only can build it faster. Basically just like the Marines only the welder costs 10 T.Res and comes with a ton of add on's. A quickly built hive is even more required now that hive's take longer to put up, and a gorge with a shift can get it up fast even still.
Oh, and Gorges aren't as required now when all your structures are moot. They clog up an area and hold it by themselves while building up your second hive at this point. Then they might as well Skulk again until Bile Bomb comes out. Supposedly there's a TF2 like Teleporter called a 'Gorge Tunnel' that's supposed to come out at some point that should help with all the other structures that were nerfed. It should definitely help with shifts being even more situational now.
None of that really changes that I think Marine command needs to come down a little in a few small ways to make it more accessible. Or maybe Marines are simply designed to lose more when teams are new or there is no experienced Commander. With Aliens being so easy, it's almost guaranteed you'll be up against someone that knows basically what they're doing on Aliens team. (Although I bet they still won't use Drifters >.< )