So... can we agree that aliens need a 6th lifeform?
Temphage
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
This was a vague problem in NS1 - the lack of a midgame alien combat lifeform. I say 'vague' because the Fade was a stopgap solution. The Fade also felt incredibly broken because of it. The Fade in NS1 was able to absorb large amounts of damage (shotguns were also less dangerous, which helped), had Metabolize and could easily recover and strike again and could use Carapace at the same time, and hell, I think the Swipe was even more lethal. The problem was that the Fade - intended to be a shadowy assassin - would go flying into gunfire, slap a marine to death, and fly out. They were damned hard to kill if they didn't want to die. Unfortunately, as NS2 has proven, their durability was a necessary evil.
In NS2, the Fade has regressed in power to its ninja-esque role (and rightly so, it's what it should be). Unfortunately this has left a huge power vacuum in the alien midgame. Fades are way too expensive for what they do now, and they're now secondary to victory. Because Fades are so brittle and overpriced, and because the aliens lack ANY lifeform that can absorb damage in the midgame, this means that most people just skip Fade and save for Onos - the only lifeform that can actually fight the marines head-on. As marines get upgrades, skulks and lerks become more useless, which underscores the need for a frontline combat unit.
One could argue that the reason the Onos will *NEVER* be balanced is specifically because it's impossible to balance it for the endgame - where aliens have nothing except the Onos - and the midgame - where aliens also have nothing except the Onos. The obvious solution here is to stop the Onos from co-opting a role in two places in the game where it isn't balanced for either, and put in a 6th lifeform - something that should've been in NS2 in the FIRST place (seeing as how it's a sequel and all).
In NS2, the Fade has regressed in power to its ninja-esque role (and rightly so, it's what it should be). Unfortunately this has left a huge power vacuum in the alien midgame. Fades are way too expensive for what they do now, and they're now secondary to victory. Because Fades are so brittle and overpriced, and because the aliens lack ANY lifeform that can absorb damage in the midgame, this means that most people just skip Fade and save for Onos - the only lifeform that can actually fight the marines head-on. As marines get upgrades, skulks and lerks become more useless, which underscores the need for a frontline combat unit.
One could argue that the reason the Onos will *NEVER* be balanced is specifically because it's impossible to balance it for the endgame - where aliens have nothing except the Onos - and the midgame - where aliens also have nothing except the Onos. The obvious solution here is to stop the Onos from co-opting a role in two places in the game where it isn't balanced for either, and put in a 6th lifeform - something that should've been in NS2 in the FIRST place (seeing as how it's a sequel and all).
Comments
The Onos was never supposed to be a front-line combat unit. The implementation of Bone Shield was supposed to allow it to provide damage absorption and cover for reduced maneuverability and an inability to retreat. It was billed as a lifeform that would distract opponents' focus while his team did the killing, a major event without being incredibly strong or a straight upgrade to any other lifeforms. Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. The technical challenges involved in implementing his abilities have necessitated a lifeform with massive HP, unprecedented damage, and impressive maneuverability, an "ultimate" form that was never supposed to exist. Anything less would result in a giant, slow target with no way to effectively contribute to combat.
The "dual roles" you're seeing in NS2 right now are a result of the difficulties in splitting the Fade and Onos' identities from each other. If the Onos was slow enough to be a poor Fade replacement, it would never be able to close with its enemies; if it was weak enough to be a poor replacement, it would never be able to kill its enemies in time. If Bone Shield were implemented, the Onos could once again to being the slow, heavy hitter his team needs; relying on Fades to help him mop up aggressors and deal with Jetpacks.
Skulks are the definition of cannon fodder; they're the cheap generic unit in infinite supply that every strategy needs. Footsoldier is just another way of saying harassment, or thing-that-makes-you-want-to-keep-some-forces-on-defense-for-most-of-your-assets.
The Fade is absolutely intended to be the assassin lifeform of NS2. They take longer to kill structures because they deal puncture damage, which is in turn because their job is not to attack extractors and observatories. They're expected to thin out enemy units and quickly respond to enemy forces, not to destroy bases on their own.
If you want a structure-destroying machine, bring a gorge with you.
As far as "aliens having no midgame," that's simply incorrect. Lerks and fades provide quite a versatile midgame in combination with gorges and skulks, especially if they have spores.
Fades need a SLIGHT bit more HP (maybe 50/25(+25cara)), but that's about it. They're pretty much fine where they are.
Fades are massively effective soldiers, and skulks are great for harassing.
You are doing it wrong.
And how does this fit into the marine team, where the 'foot soldier' is effective throughout the entire game? That's the entire PROBLEM. One team's footsoldiers become completely obsolete, the others' doesn't. All the Fade does is become what a skulk is for the earlygame.
The entire flaw with the Onos is based completely on it being too powerful for midgame introduction, and being unable to fix it without making it too weak for lategame where the aliens still have to spend ten minutes trying to crack an already defeated marine turtle. I'm not hearing a lot of reasons as to why a 6th lifeform to fill the midgame gap isn't the solution.
Last I checked, this forum was still clogged with people complaining about the Onos. That problem hasn't gone away.
Why would they fit together?
Why would they fit together?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you managed to dismiss the alien team as being "complete" with some completely half-assed archetypes, with absolutely no consideration as to the practical implementations of that? Skulks become totally obsolete, which means the mid and lategame is missing the footsoldier archetype. Therefore, according to your 'guidelines', the alien team is missing something.
Right now, the Onos is co-opting that role and is badly balancing the game because of it. And I don't want to see a return of FadeTanks.
Of course, the other issue is the fact that this game is NS<b>2</b> and introduced nothing new and novel to the alien team aside from an unwanted commander role. God forbid we put something in there.
Except, by that point, you're no longer a footsoldier, are you? You're a chaff harassment unit, at best.
Also known as:
<!--quoteo(post=2034581:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:23 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 25 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->harassment, or thing-that-makes-you-want-to-keep-some-forces-on-defense-for-most-of-your-assets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with it is that it is supposed to be a mid game soldier, but unfortunately it really can't commit like an Onos can.
If you remember older builds where the Fade was more effective, you'd see clans like Duplex/ARC/etc fighting the marines into their base with 4 Fades blinking around and killing everything. Then the game would end.
But now it seems impossible for the Fade to really do this job, because he is too weak to commit his 50 res self to finishing off the last guy in a base/main base in case he dies.
You also can not risk losing him in the mid to late game, because if JPs come out it is hard to clear them up if you do not have a Lerk.
Fades blink in, stab, then get out. They are great for pushing the invisible territorial line. But ultimately the Onos is the thing that really begins to finish the game, and that is why I think people save an extra 25 over the Fade.
I honestly think Fade cost should come down, i'd also like to see more interaction between the Lerk and Fade. The Lerk is a great support class, but I hate spore currently and umbra just comes out so late.
I've read your posts three times over while trying to wrap my head around whatever you seem to be trying to pass off as logic, and all you're doing is saying words that don't actually make any sense. Nothing you've said has refuted ANYTHING I said in my first post. Either say something that doesn't involve you twisting your own words to fit whatever definition you want, or go away.
The only last thing I'll add that torpedoes your entire 'alien archetype' argument is that not all lifeforms are freely available all the time, nor are aliens capable nor willing, nor even always practically able to actually change to fill the archetype they need. Archetypes only fit in a game where they all can work together at all times. NS2 isn't that game. The bad swings in gameplay power and balance problems are because of it. Battlefield 3 wouldn't work if Engineers were only available after you take half the tickets. TF2 wouldn't work if Medics weren't available until after you captured the briefcase twice.
No, we can not all agree that aliens need a 6th lifeform.
Then actually explain why a 6th lifeform wouldn't help fix the problems with mid / lategame balance, instead of just saying 'LOL NOPE' which is all you've effectively done. I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just... yeah.
The Onos was never supposed to be a front-line combat unit. The implementation of Bone Shield was supposed to allow it to provide damage absorption and cover for reduced maneuverability and an inability to retreat. It was billed as a lifeform that would distract opponents' focus while his team did the killing, a major event without being incredibly strong or a straight upgrade to any other lifeforms. Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. The technical challenges involved in implementing his abilities have necessitated a lifeform with massive HP, unprecedented damage, and impressive maneuverability, an "ultimate" form that was never supposed to exist. Anything less would result in a giant, slow target with no way to effectively contribute to combat.
The "dual roles" you're seeing in NS2 right now are a result of the difficulties in splitting the Fade and Onos' identities from each other. If the Onos was slow enough to be a poor Fade replacement, it would never be able to close with its enemies; if it was weak enough to be a poor replacement, it would never be able to kill its enemies in time. If Bone Shield were implemented, the Onos could once again to being the slow, heavy hitter his team needs; relying on Fades to help him mop up aggressors and deal with Jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos would only fit into the role you're talking about if Charge was removed completely so that it becomes a tank as opposed to being a lightning bruiser.
Besides, lack of mid-game 'upgrades' are a problem for Marines too. There's nothing for direct combat between Shotguns (Which come out in the first few minutes) and Exos (Which are late-game tech and inferior to Shotguns in many cases as it is).
Also I hate when I see people ###### about not having any fun being a useless skulk in the lategame. If thats the case then become a gorge. You can never have enough gorges in the lategame supporting onos and you basically always have 10res. If you die constantly with less then 10res then you are doing something wrong. Don't waste your res on hydras and before you know it you have enough res to be something else.
Besides, lack of mid-game 'upgrades' are a problem for Marines too. There's nothing for direct combat between Shotguns (Which come out in the first few minutes) and Exos (Which are late-game tech).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the Onos was ever originally billed as having Charge; he certainly didn't get it as an ability until many builds after he was introduced, when it became clear Bone Shield would not make it in soon. Some of the earliest complaints about the Onos as a lifeform were how it could hit enemy bases and then run away, which was completely counter to the role it was supposed to have filled. A slower, more wall-like Onos would indeed necessitate the removal or massive adjustment of charge.
Marines may well have separate issues, but that is a discussion for another thread.
Because as I explained, NS1 had Fades as the midgame soldier. They could deal damage, take damage, and had little downtime. It was functional, but it always felt like a ridiculous solution. The lore is that Fades are assassiny-ninja-types, and it makes the game better to fit the lore than to have Fades flying through the air around the marine base absorbing apocalyptic levels of firepower and then floating out into the hallway and waving their arms around for a few seconds before doing it again.
Also, the concept of absorbing damage is usually counterbalanced by a lack of DEALING damage. This is a fundamental tenant of any video game. Snipers are clasically weak in standup fights, spies can kill anyone in one hit, but it's hard to get there and can be easily defeated once discovered. NS1 fades combined assassination lethality with silly levels of survivability, to such an extent that games were usually decided by <b>when</b> a Fade showed up. An early Fade could set the marines back so far that they could never recover. And, a Fade that didn't want to die would never die. It was almost impossible to get enough damage into a Fade before he ran away and healed.
The game could be easily functional and much more fun with Fade functioning as the 'advanced skulks' were there something to function as a 'primitive Onos' without actually being a nerfed Onos. All nerfing the Onos does is hurt the alien lategame, and even with the v1.0 Onos, it can take the aliens ages to finish off an already defeated marine team. Nerfing the Onos would only make that worse.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--fonto:Impact--><span style="font-family:Impact"><!--/fonto-->FADES SUCK<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Also, the concept of absorbing damage is usually counterbalanced by a lack of DEALING damage. This is a fundamental tenant of any video game. Snipers are clasically weak in standup fights, spies can kill anyone in one hit, but it's hard to get there and can be easily defeated once discovered. NS1 fades combined assassination lethality with silly levels of survivability, to such an extent that games were usually decided by <b>when</b> a Fade showed up. An early Fade could set the marines back so far that they could never recover. And, a Fade that didn't want to die would never die. It was almost impossible to get enough damage into a Fade before he ran away and healed.
The game could be easily functional and much more fun with Fade functioning as the 'advanced skulks' were there something to function as a 'primitive Onos' without actually being a nerfed Onos. All nerfing the Onos does is hurt the alien lategame, and even with the v1.0 Onos, it can take the aliens ages to finish off an already defeated marine team. Nerfing the Onos would only make that worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but I don't find your points convincing.
1) You don't think it fits the lore? Who knows the lore of ns2, basically nobody, even less care.
2) You think the fade deals too much damage to be able to absorb damage. Then why does everyone think the fade is too weak and per hit it does barely more then a skulk and less then the onos which can absorb far more. It doesn't have to be buffed to the point of NS1, just a small buff would make it a viable midgame unit.
3) You think the fade would be better as an advanced skulk. How would this work? It would have to be cheaper and weaker than a lerk to cause anyone to bother with it so it would have to be massively nerfed and then it would just be even worse then it is now. This idea makes no sense.
TLDR - The fade is the midgame unit and its perfect for its role with a massive skill ceiling, it just needs a little tweaking.
The problem lies with inventing a lifeform that's not too similar to any of the existing ones. There's already a tank (onos). A weak slow support/builder unit (gorge). A base lifeform - fragile, fast, meelee unit (skulk). An assassin type class that requires more sneaky hit and run play (fade). A fast flying unit that thrives on poison and ranged attacks (lerk).
Inventing something else might run the risk of having something too similar to the lifeforms already there. Chances are it would end up being too much like a cross between a gorge and a skulk. Or a lerk and a fade. Or something like that.
It would also have a devastating effect on game balance. NS2 was already built off the template that NS1 provided. It had balanced gameplay for all those classes. And while balance isn't all that good right now already, imagine what throwing a spanner into the works like introducing a new lifeform would do.
Having said that, I would like to see something new if it could be introduced without throwing the game out of wack too much, and that it has a logical place in the game rather than being too similar to the lifeforms already available.