Pay the cost difference when evolving
CrushaK
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">A way to encourage aliens to evolve into higher lifeforms early on</div>Currently there is not much motivation for aliens to go anything else than Skulks if they can avoid it because it's a steep investment usually and -as opposed to marines- aliens have no way of reclaiming their investment after dying.
So what would you think about baiting alien players into going for higher lifeforms early on by allowing them to have the Pres cost of that lifeform fully or partially discounted from lifeforms higher in the evolutionary chain?
Spend 10 res to go Gorge -> pay only 20 to go Lerk later on.
If a full cost discount would be too much, the partially one could be 75-50% of the cost reclaim. So if you went Gorge for 10 res, you would have to pay 8-5 res less for higher lifeforms. Fades would have to pay 37-25 res less to go Onos later on.
But as I said earlier, this all comes under the premise that it "baits" players to evolve earlier in the game. If they die, they lose their investment. One that they might not have made without the system in place and instead just saved for the Onos.
Evolving back into a lower lifeform could be free, but you would only get the discount for that lifeform's cost when evolving into a higher lifeform again later.
In general should it encourage players to spend more Pres and thus give marines a chance to defuse the "Onos Avalanche" that was mentioned in another thread here. And it would also stop to punish players for evolving to an advanced lifeform. If you currently go early Lerk, you throw yourself quite a lot behind in regards to becoming a higher lifeform in the foreseeable future.
My only concern is that it *could* leave good players with too many res throughout the game. But on the other hand does this system not really increase their res gain - they still wouldn't get an Onos any sooner than they would have when they played Skulk for the entire match. Instead it allows them to go more for a "high risk, high reward" kind of playstyle.
So what would you think about baiting alien players into going for higher lifeforms early on by allowing them to have the Pres cost of that lifeform fully or partially discounted from lifeforms higher in the evolutionary chain?
Spend 10 res to go Gorge -> pay only 20 to go Lerk later on.
If a full cost discount would be too much, the partially one could be 75-50% of the cost reclaim. So if you went Gorge for 10 res, you would have to pay 8-5 res less for higher lifeforms. Fades would have to pay 37-25 res less to go Onos later on.
But as I said earlier, this all comes under the premise that it "baits" players to evolve earlier in the game. If they die, they lose their investment. One that they might not have made without the system in place and instead just saved for the Onos.
Evolving back into a lower lifeform could be free, but you would only get the discount for that lifeform's cost when evolving into a higher lifeform again later.
In general should it encourage players to spend more Pres and thus give marines a chance to defuse the "Onos Avalanche" that was mentioned in another thread here. And it would also stop to punish players for evolving to an advanced lifeform. If you currently go early Lerk, you throw yourself quite a lot behind in regards to becoming a higher lifeform in the foreseeable future.
My only concern is that it *could* leave good players with too many res throughout the game. But on the other hand does this system not really increase their res gain - they still wouldn't get an Onos any sooner than they would have when they played Skulk for the entire match. Instead it allows them to go more for a "high risk, high reward" kind of playstyle.
Comments
I think this is a terrible idea. It allows the entire team to go Lerk, the Fade, then Onos instantly the exact moment they get res, and all they have to do is stay alive. It's solving a problem that doesn't exist, and it will only make the Onosplosion worse.
Also, this goes in the suggestions forum.
If you put the emphasis on "everyone" and it was already in the game, then I may assume that it was implemented in a slightly different way?
During the beta, there was an evolution called Hypermutation that you could get by trading off the ability to use celerity or adrenaline.
This evolution allowed you to do basically exactly what you described - it refunded the cost of any higher level lifeforms when you evolved back "down." For example, if you were an Onos, and evolved back to a Lerk, you would be refunded 45 pres. It also sped up your evolving time.
However, there were some bugs and unintended consequences with this ability, and so near the end of the beta this evolution, along with Feign Death, were removed until they could devote some time to fixing it.
Until we get a 100 res lifeform I'm going to vote no on this, but I do like the idea and it's certainly worth exploring for future balance changes
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I like this idea. Would definitely make playing alien a bit more dynamic, even if the need to "downgrade" is pretty rare. I remember seeing some competitive matches in the beta where this was executed quite effectively. Why was hypermution scrapped again?
Dunno about size, nothing too big, smaller than shade.
It would generate an aura for nearby aliens where they can refund their evolutions and swap upgrades (change celerity for adrenaline, etc).
That evolution process would take 2x more time than by doing it from "fresh skulky".
EDIT:
Evolving player eggs in proximity to that structure could be distinctive, so you had to be sure about what you are doing.
They would give out location of a player inside the egg, meaning the marines could easily snipe it taking out defensless alien life form.
It worked decently except you could evolve incredibly fast, and it made for some surprisingly stupid gameplay, like onos about to die evolving into a skulk around a corner and having the 75 res refunded.
Then again, those problems could've been resolved by tweaking cross-mutation timings, so you couldn't de-evolve onos that quickly
Would be interesting!
Can't we just bump up hypermutations 'in combat' time, which alot of other successful game objects now reference?
I.E. evolving to skulk from onos would take as long as skulk to onos
This removes the "oops you let me get around a corner and refund all me monies!" problem with onos to skulk
Its devestating enough to lose a lifeform, why not let the aliens keep their pres through all lifeforms, provided they dont die.
After all marines can recycle their guns, aliens should have something similar like being able to change their lifeform
The only lifeform I would support 're-evolving' in/out of would be the gorge because of his unique gameplay importance. A person shouldn't have to sacrifice a fade/onos just because no one else is gorge. Otherwise, evolution should be a choice that involves commitment.
Yes, marines don't have a recycling system that will give them their res for the weapon back. But they have a recycling system that can prevent your <i>team</i> from simply losing an investment that you made when you die. Until all marines in an area are killed, they can just keep picking up a weapon of a killed marine again and again.
Also, if you have a Shotgun but would like to get a Flame Thrower instead but don't have enough res to afford one, you <i>could</i> as a fellow teammate to buy the Flame Thrower for you and then switch the Shotgun with him. Same as you can leave your gun to someone else before you buy an Exo.
The only lifeform I would support 're-evolving' in/out of would be the gorge because of his unique gameplay importance. A person shouldn't have to sacrifice a fade/onos just because no one else is gorge. Otherwise, evolution should be a choice that involves commitment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Asymmetry" is always the convenient excuse du jour for annoying design elsewhere in the game, is it not?
This:
<!--quoteo(post=2035259:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:46 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...it made for some surprisingly stupid gameplay, like onos about to die evolving into a skulk around a corner and having the 75 res refunded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It also fully healed you. So an onos that's low on health could pop around a corner, nearly instantly go skulk for a full refund and full health, then go onos again in seconds (if it's safe) and be fully healed.
There was also a bug with feign death (which is why that's also missing) that caused it to trigger for eggs, then reset after you hatch (since you're at full health, which was the trigger to reset feign death), so it was almost completely risk-free if you combined them.
and having only a 50% return as well posibbly,
would be nice having another choice at 1 hives other than drop hive quick or were boned as this would cost 30? so almost as much as the second hive itself but have useful properties the full game length.
more hive 1 choices for alien com are something needed i think?
getting a bunch of onos is terrible if the marines have some decent players with jetpacks, they'll clean the onos up for free.
This, unfortunately, goes against Flayra's vision for this evolution I believe.
Flayra's own example scenario given a while back was that he imagined a group of skulks going Lerk, I think? Or Onos.. something - Attacking a base, then retreating as a group, going Gorge, heal each other up, then go back to another life form to continue the attack. In this case, I believe the bug is the "free" healing that players were getting.
it was also going both ways which caused the abuse
if balanced correctly
sounds ok
remember the whole team can only 'all go fade' if none of them die