The problem the OP describes only exists because the Fade's lore is conflicting (it's variously described as a stealthy-but-fragile 'assassin' and a 'foot soldier' designed to stand up to fight small groups of marines and harass them to death with multiple fast attacks) and its current effectiveness doesn't line up with its cost. It also doesn't help that the fade's learning curve is massively steeper than any other alien lifeform and is coupled to a high cost for failure.
So, the answer is no. Just fix the fade, ignoring the gamebreaking aspects of the lore if necessary.
I was debating making a thread suggesting the ability for an Alien Commander to research a 'heavy Skulk' or some such at the second hive. Something costing 25 to research or so, and 10 for the alien players to evolve to, that gives a skulk with significantly more armor, slightly higher damage (85 damage direct bite rather than 75), while also making their model slightly larger and bulkier to compensate for their increased health. Also reducing their speed somewhat. Something for aliens to get that isn't an Onos but can also take a few hits while fighting, while also giving a middling form besides lerks/fades, who are both hit and run types.
If I could just rethink the whole lifeform structure, I think NS2 could greatly benefit from a 10-15 res gorge sized _fighter_ unit with some decent damage soaking capability. It would serve as a little similar res sink as marine guns. That gives aliens some much needed ability to shift their timings, to invest in momentarily advantage and to avoid lifeform explosions and so on.
Right now we probably are stuck with the 5 existing lifeforms though. Better start figuring out how to make them work, I guess.
I would prefer the Fade remain as it is (with a slight hp buff)
I also agree that aliens need another "direct combat" unit aside from the onos.
The current alien lifeforms just don't have enough power to break into and TAKE marine territory, but are amazing at holding off attacks and defending territory via ambushing and hit and run tactics.
If I was going to add a 6th lifeform, it would be a 20 res lifeform designed to be front line combat units.
Ideally for me it would be: - A bit more durable that the Gorge - A bit faster than the skulk - Not as manuverable as the lerk or fade - Maybe a tenticle used for pulling itself around short distances (cling to ceiling but cant move; pull itself into a marine) as 1st ability - Perhaps have acid rocket for a ranged attack designed to wear down armor before getting into melee range for first ability - Tenticle pulls marines toward it and stumbles them for 1 sec as 3rd ability
Obviously this will be "a combination of other lifeforms" but i think this type of lifeform would be enjoyable and add more variety to the game.
Long story short, I don't feel that aliens have enough lifeforms designed to take territory from marines
What the aliens really lack is some kind of psychic unit you might see in other melee vs. ranged games. A nice mixture of utility and damage is easy to create with some glass cannon ranged unit. Give them telekinesis, or disable, or maybe some health drain thing, the possibilities are endless. With psychics you can do anything you want except for grognards whining about "MY IMMERSION" because there is an improbable power in their spaceman vs. space aliens game.
<!--quoteo(post=2034758:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:28 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 25 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->> Umbra > Umbra/Spikes > Stomp (and an even more annoyingly overpowered variant at that) > Blink
So this concept is really just a bunch of other things already in the game thrown together. The lifeform's role appears to be support, like the Lerk, but why it has the ability to completely remove control from enemy players and teleport around the map at will makes no sense at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk is more useful than fades atm in the damage dept
<!--quoteo(post=2035315:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:02 PM:name=Zora-Link)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zora-Link @ Nov 26 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was debating making a thread suggesting the ability for an Alien Commander to research a 'heavy Skulk' or some such at the second hive. Something costing 25 to research or so, and 10 for the alien players to evolve to, that gives a skulk with significantly more armor, slightly higher damage (85 damage direct bite rather than 75), while also making their model slightly larger and bulkier to compensate for their increased health. Also reducing their speed somewhat. Something for aliens to get that isn't an Onos but can also take a few hits while fighting, while also giving a middling form besides lerks/fades, who are both hit and run types.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2035365:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:03 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Nov 26 2012, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the aliens really lack is some kind of psychic unit you might see in other melee vs. ranged games. A nice mixture of utility and damage is easy to create with some glass cannon ranged unit. Give them telekinesis, or disable, or maybe some health drain thing, the possibilities are endless. With psychics you can do anything you want except for grognards whining about "MY IMMERSION" because there is an improbable power in their spaceman vs. space aliens game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The glass cannon ranged unit is the Gorge. The glass cannon melee unit is the Skulk. We don't have ranged PvP glass cannons because getting killed instantly or near-instantly by a ranged attack isn't fun, and because the ability of Marines to dodge something outside of melee combat is pitiful.
<!--quoteo(post=2035372:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:13 PM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Nov 26 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[img]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A fade hardly fits the bill of a front line unit that can soak up a few hits.
Aliens don't need a 6th life form but they need to bring the onos back to a 2nd hive drop. While yes there was the issue of the 6 min onos there was also the issue of the 25 min games where marines locked down the 3 tech points and alien need the extra push i.e. onos to charge in and take the 3rd hive.
Please stop nerfing the aliens? In recent patches we have seen nerfs to the onos, less armor and now a 3rd hive drop as well as the absolute destruction to the eggs from the shifts. As I have said before the second hive drop onos could work as the early and late game life form. Now I've heard the disscusion that the onos is too powerful early game but the bile bombing gorge can many times do more damage than the onos.
I've asked other players this before saying that I didn't know what role they thought aliens were missing
Most said a dedicated ranged attacker, but all you would need is to give Fades back Acid Rocket instead of the utterly terrible vortex and BAM! No more need for a ranged attacker!
The other option was a 75-100 res Super Lerk
Personally I'd rather see the Super Gorge, but w/e
Actually the idea of making the gorge a bit more offensively capable is pretty interesting to me, is this something that was ever tried in beta? With all the talk about the alien comm taking away the gorge's niche making it more useful in a straight fight would be one way of giving it back some usefulness outside of bile bomb and as a mobile healing station / hive builder. I'm not seriously suggesting it as it would probably be hard to balance if it was made even slightly relevent but it's an interesting thought.
What about a scorpion type creature that DOESN'T hovar? Let it cost about as much as lerk, give it hp equal to fade, but a lot of armor. Can wall climb like skulks but is slower and bigger. Pincer claw attacks would be its basic attack. Upgrades could be a powerful sting attack that does damage over time as well as a moderate amount up front from being stuck. Maybe give it the web ability too gorges had from ns1. It could set up traps and spring on them or something. I dunno, just spit ballin' here.
Not the Face!Join Date: 2012-11-27Member: 173437Members
I'm feeling like Alien's need something at Gorge cost to Lerk cost. A combat oriented form that is similar to a Skulk while having different good match ups...Something that a team might choose to replace skulks with but requiring a similar playstyle so it would eat into sustained income.
Though a better method may be to add some evolves that hold a rez cost and really change what a form can do. With this you could have second form skulks fill the role of midgame frontliner without making it resource free.
I think the big problem with the ns2 gameplay at the moment is, that after the 2nd hive is finished and leap is researched, aliens don’t get considerably stronger anymore while on the marine team upgrades begin to kick in while more and more players buy themselves weapons. Let’s take the worst case: A normal day on public ns2_veil: With even teams Aliens should secure 2 Hives and 1rt, maybe even dres. Marines in turn take the rest of the map including one Hive. Once 2nd Hive is finished and aliens get leap as well as cara(cele) they have the upper hand for a short period. Then marine upgrades begin to kick in, enabling the marines to catch up. This enables the marines to constantly push the second hive of the aliens. Aliens defend for some time but once gls, flamers and Armor 2 are up they eventually will kill the 2nd alien Hive. The one and only question at this point is: Is there somebody with 75 res yet? Yes: Hive is defended and eventually -at the latest with 2nd Onos- the 3rd is claimed by the aliens. gg. No: Hive is taken down. gg. I don’t know how this plays out in pro matches, but on pubs this seems to be the ideal midgame. In my experience most public games with different midgame are skill-stacked for one team. This massive reliance of the aliens on the Onos imho is the biggest flaw in NS2 game design. Normally the Fade should kick in between 2nd Hive and Onos. But Fade is useless in this kind of situation as it is no use at stopping a constant push towards a Hive. I think this thread showed several possibilities how to fix the lack of a real alien combat unit between 2nd Hive and Onos.
Aliens could get new upgrades with every Hive. E.g. the Khamm could buy the 2nd Hive skulk upgrade giving +10HP +5AP to all skulks. Or maybe an upgrade that makes flamers and gls less effective against skulks. In return it may be necessary to postpone the Onos more into the lategame. Another option would be to give the choice of this upgrade to the players themselves. Why not enable 2nd Hive skulks to get a small HP/AP boost for 2 or 3 res? Pros: - Gives aliens another midgame possibility - If players have to buy this upgrade individually it may become a real alternative to saving for Onos every single round - Could help to finish games where Aliens have 4 Hives and marines turtle in base Cons: - Does not solve the Fade problem/Maybe even makes Fade less useful - Does not finally solve the Onos problem - As Skulks are so crucial to the gameplay it will be very hard to balance over the whole match <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> Make two kinds of Fade<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I thought the idea of “carapace Fade†and “celerity Fade†is quite good. Why not make two versions of the Fade. One being a slightly slower/less mobile version of today’s Fade with more HP and maybe better building attack ability. This Fade could function as medium unit mainly focused on attacking/defending one single location. (Think of it a bit like the Roach in SC2: good at the beginning but later in the game not viable to win games on its own) The second variant could be made even a little more fragile than today’s Fade and given even less damage against buildings. On the other hand this version of the Fade would be more mobile than the current Fade (faster blink speed, more adrenaline and shorter shadow walk cooldown) as well as dealing more damage to marines (maybe with longer cooldown between attacks). His Fade would be the ninja unit it was supposed to be from the beginning. Because of the high damage per attack and high mobility it would ideal to kill lonely marines as well as to harass small squads. But because of the low HP it would have to be very cautious and together with higher cooldown on its main attack not suited to join bigger battles. In this case the Onos has to be more expensive/3rd Hive unit to prevent aliens from getting all strong units in the midgame.
Pros: - The carapace Fade solves the Onos race in the midgame as Aliens have a beefy combat unit to fight sgs and gls. - With the celerity Fade Aliens finally get that cool assassin unit it always was intended to be but never was because of the lack of a medium combat unit - The new life form would give alien gameplay more variety and therefore depth. Cons: - More complicated to balance one more alien life form
Another Idea I had yesterday is to make the Onos a two tier unit. Why not introduce some kind of baby Onos at the price of the Fade which would be the medium combat unit. Then players can evolve from baby Onos to mature Onos for another 30 or 40 res or upon a certain tech level. This would also soften the transition of aliens from “no meat shield at all†to “IM UBER ONOS U CANT KILL ME†in the current midgame. Also it fits quite well in the idea of evolving aliens.
A super crazy alien that can trick marines with illusion, throw out waves of electricity to interrupt marine frequencies, and 3rd hive upgrade is the ability to enter the mind of a marine and explode his brains through his ears like jello.
I like the idea of the 'carapace Fade'. I thought I had written this earlier but I don't see it in this thread, so maybe I forgot to post it. I was thinking for the 6th lifeform something along the lines of the 'walker Fade'. Which, I guess would be the carapace Fade concept. This lifeform would be equipped with a variety of snares - maybe webs? Hell, you could allow him to move around the map like Spiderman, if that wouldn't seem too ridiculous, swinging from low ceilings, to introduce the ever-so-important skill-based-movement mechanic. Using the webs he could either set snares for marines in advance, so he can move in and attack, or snare them in combat (perhaps grabbing a marine and pulling it towards him).
A more beefy skulk variant would probably be the only thing I would add. I don't think there's enough variety to add a sixth class. They mostly just seem to need the equivalent of a 2W2A shotgun marine. Like the regular base class, only tougher, bit more damaging, not very expensive, not very specialised.
Comments
So, the answer is no. Just fix the fade, ignoring the gamebreaking aspects of the lore if necessary.
Right now we probably are stuck with the 5 existing lifeforms though. Better start figuring out how to make them work, I guess.
I also agree that aliens need another "direct combat" unit aside from the onos.
The current alien lifeforms just don't have enough power to break into and TAKE marine territory, but are amazing at holding off attacks and defending territory via ambushing and hit and run tactics.
If I was going to add a 6th lifeform, it would be a 20 res lifeform designed to be front line combat units.
Ideally for me it would be:
- A bit more durable that the Gorge
- A bit faster than the skulk
- Not as manuverable as the lerk or fade
- Maybe a tenticle used for pulling itself around short distances (cling to ceiling but cant move; pull itself into a marine) as 1st ability
- Perhaps have acid rocket for a ranged attack designed to wear down armor before getting into melee range for first ability
- Tenticle pulls marines toward it and stumbles them for 1 sec as 3rd ability
Obviously this will be "a combination of other lifeforms" but i think this type of lifeform would be enjoyable and add more variety to the game.
Long story short, I don't feel that aliens have enough lifeforms designed to take territory from marines
> Umbra/Spikes
> Stomp (and an even more annoyingly overpowered variant at that)
> Blink
So this concept is really just a bunch of other things already in the game thrown together. The lifeform's role appears to be support, like the Lerk, but why it has the ability to completely remove control from enemy players and teleport around the map at will makes no sense at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk is more useful than fades atm in the damage dept
<img src="http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/192292-/NS2_Fade_render-620x.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The glass cannon ranged unit is the Gorge. The glass cannon melee unit is the Skulk. We don't have ranged PvP glass cannons because getting killed instantly or near-instantly by a ranged attack isn't fun, and because the ability of Marines to dodge something outside of melee combat is pitiful.
A fade hardly fits the bill of a front line unit that can soak up a few hits.
What? Skulks are NEVER obsolete. If you have even 2 good ones, they will make hell for the marine team. Especially when they are 'upgraded'
Please stop nerfing the aliens? In recent patches we have seen nerfs to the onos, less armor and now a 3rd hive drop as well as the absolute destruction to the eggs from the shifts. As I have said before the second hive drop onos could work as the early and late game life form. Now I've heard the disscusion that the onos is too powerful early game but the bile bombing gorge can many times do more damage than the onos.
I've asked other players this before saying that I didn't know what role they thought aliens were missing
Most said a dedicated ranged attacker, but all you would need is to give Fades back Acid Rocket instead of the utterly terrible vortex and BAM!
No more need for a ranged attacker!
The other option was a 75-100 res Super Lerk
Personally I'd rather see the Super Gorge, but w/e
I mean who would not love such a nice creature!?
Though a better method may be to add some evolves that hold a rez cost and really change what a form can do. With this you could have second form skulks fill the role of midgame frontliner without making it resource free.
Let’s take the worst case: A normal day on public ns2_veil:
With even teams Aliens should secure 2 Hives and 1rt, maybe even dres.
Marines in turn take the rest of the map including one Hive.
Once 2nd Hive is finished and aliens get leap as well as cara(cele) they have the upper hand for a short period.
Then marine upgrades begin to kick in, enabling the marines to catch up.
This enables the marines to constantly push the second hive of the aliens.
Aliens defend for some time but once gls, flamers and Armor 2 are up they eventually will kill the 2nd alien Hive.
The one and only question at this point is: Is there somebody with 75 res yet?
Yes: Hive is defended and eventually -at the latest with 2nd Onos- the 3rd is claimed by the aliens. gg.
No: Hive is taken down. gg.
I don’t know how this plays out in pro matches, but on pubs this seems to be the ideal midgame. In my experience most public games with different midgame are skill-stacked for one team.
This massive reliance of the aliens on the Onos imho is the biggest flaw in NS2 game design. Normally the Fade should kick in between 2nd Hive and Onos. But Fade is useless in this kind of situation as it is no use at stopping a constant push towards a Hive.
I think this thread showed several possibilities how to fix the lack of a real alien combat unit between 2nd Hive and Onos.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Additional Hive upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Aliens could get new upgrades with every Hive. E.g. the Khamm could buy the 2nd Hive skulk upgrade giving +10HP +5AP to all skulks. Or maybe an upgrade that makes flamers and gls less effective against skulks. In return it may be necessary to postpone the Onos more into the lategame.
Another option would be to give the choice of this upgrade to the players themselves. Why not enable 2nd Hive skulks to get a small HP/AP boost for 2 or 3 res?
Pros:
- Gives aliens another midgame possibility
- If players have to buy this upgrade individually it may become a real alternative to saving for Onos every single round
- Could help to finish games where Aliens have 4 Hives and marines turtle in base
Cons:
- Does not solve the Fade problem/Maybe even makes Fade less useful
- Does not finally solve the Onos problem
- As Skulks are so crucial to the gameplay it will be very hard to balance over the whole match
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
Make two kinds of Fade<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I thought the idea of “carapace Fade†and “celerity Fade†is quite good. Why not make two versions of the Fade. One being a slightly slower/less mobile version of today’s Fade with more HP and maybe better building attack ability. This Fade could function as medium unit mainly focused on attacking/defending one single location. (Think of it a bit like the Roach in SC2: good at the beginning but later in the game not viable to win games on its own)
The second variant could be made even a little more fragile than today’s Fade and given even less damage against buildings. On the other hand this version of the Fade would be more mobile than the current Fade (faster blink speed, more adrenaline and shorter shadow walk cooldown) as well as dealing more damage to marines (maybe with longer cooldown between attacks). His Fade would be the ninja unit it was supposed to be from the beginning. Because of the high damage per attack and high mobility it would ideal to kill lonely marines as well as to harass small squads. But because of the low HP it would have to be very cautious and together with higher cooldown on its main attack not suited to join bigger battles.
In this case the Onos has to be more expensive/3rd Hive unit to prevent aliens from getting all strong units in the midgame.
Pros:
- The carapace Fade solves the Onos race in the midgame as Aliens have a beefy combat unit to fight sgs and gls.
- With the celerity Fade Aliens finally get that cool assassin unit it always was intended to be but never was because of the lack of a medium combat unit
- The new life form would give alien gameplay more variety and therefore depth.
Cons:
- More complicated to balance one more alien life form
Another Idea I had yesterday is to make the Onos a two tier unit. Why not introduce some kind of baby Onos at the price of the Fade which would be the medium combat unit. Then players can evolve from baby Onos to mature Onos for another 30 or 40 res or upon a certain tech level. This would also soften the transition of aliens from “no meat shield at all†to “IM UBER ONOS U CANT KILL ME†in the current midgame. Also it fits quite well in the idea of evolving aliens.
<b>Shnigglegritz</b>
A super crazy alien that can trick marines with illusion, throw out waves of electricity to interrupt marine frequencies, and 3rd hive upgrade is the ability to enter the mind of a marine and explode his brains through his ears like jello.