match making/ranking system
FrankerZ
Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151627Members
Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151627Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It could improve the fun this game has to offer</div>I,m not saying the game isnt fun as it is, but it seems that it creates a lot of unnecessary frustration due to extremely high discrepancy of skill you can witness within the different players on a pub.
Also, this game requires a lot of strategy and the way in which every pub game starts just doesnt fit the amount of organization needed to experience ns2 to its maximum. I think a typical game will start with maybe half the ppl on server in the rr just chatting, afking, trying to stack. you cant make a plan of what you want your team to do if you can only communicate it to half your team as the game starts.
Right now if you're commanding on a pub, your role is to provide a healthy environment for your team so they can play their little mindless teamdeathmatch, because trying to do any sort of strategy is a waste of time, no one cares, they just wanna chew on marines and shoot skulks.
There needs to be a default mode for servers that allows for less variable teams and more effective planing. Also there needs to be incentives in place so ppl are motivated to win the game. My ideas would be, particular skins if a certain amount of win is reached (a la sc2 icons), or ranking points that allows you to show your e-peen to everyone
I think a good analogy would be comparing the pub years of dota on wc3 with the current state of moba games with match making, lots of planing time to choose heroes carefully and make sure you have lots of synergy with your team. Before that you would just pick whatever hero you feel like playing cus you dont really care about the outcome you just wanna have some fun. If game doesnt go your way oh well just leave.
Now, does NS2 have the player pool to be able to offer at least the option to play with players of your level instead of having a soup o different skill level. Also can it provide an incentive to win games rather than an incentive to get good kd (ty ns2stats).
So ya, I realize that my post is a bit all over the place but I just wanna bounce balls with you guys about this, because I really think something could be done to reduce this rampant frustration that lowers the fun this game has to offer.
Also, this game requires a lot of strategy and the way in which every pub game starts just doesnt fit the amount of organization needed to experience ns2 to its maximum. I think a typical game will start with maybe half the ppl on server in the rr just chatting, afking, trying to stack. you cant make a plan of what you want your team to do if you can only communicate it to half your team as the game starts.
Right now if you're commanding on a pub, your role is to provide a healthy environment for your team so they can play their little mindless teamdeathmatch, because trying to do any sort of strategy is a waste of time, no one cares, they just wanna chew on marines and shoot skulks.
There needs to be a default mode for servers that allows for less variable teams and more effective planing. Also there needs to be incentives in place so ppl are motivated to win the game. My ideas would be, particular skins if a certain amount of win is reached (a la sc2 icons), or ranking points that allows you to show your e-peen to everyone
I think a good analogy would be comparing the pub years of dota on wc3 with the current state of moba games with match making, lots of planing time to choose heroes carefully and make sure you have lots of synergy with your team. Before that you would just pick whatever hero you feel like playing cus you dont really care about the outcome you just wanna have some fun. If game doesnt go your way oh well just leave.
Now, does NS2 have the player pool to be able to offer at least the option to play with players of your level instead of having a soup o different skill level. Also can it provide an incentive to win games rather than an incentive to get good kd (ty ns2stats).
So ya, I realize that my post is a bit all over the place but I just wanna bounce balls with you guys about this, because I really think something could be done to reduce this rampant frustration that lowers the fun this game has to offer.
Comments
it doesn't even make sense in theory...
would you rather let the game decide a match based on some bs algorithm OR freely choose to join a game which says 'we kick noobs!' etc?
Also a server that kicks noobs couldnt work cus you need noobs to fill up a server, otherwise good players will be stuck playing 1v1 2v2 for too long and just quit and go play on server full of noobs rather than no servers (which will decrease the chance of filling up that nonoob server even more)
Also a server that kicks noobs couldnt work cus you need noobs to fill up a server, otherwise good players will be stuck playing 1v1 2v2 for too long and just quit and go play on server full of noobs rather than no servers (which will decrease the chance of filling up that nonoob server even more)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are plenty of servers who kick new or incompetent players, and there are plenty of players to fill them.
How would the game even determine who to match people with? How do you tell skill? Compatibility? Server climate? Mods? Matchmaking works fine for console games where all servers are flash-hosted or dev hosted and players are ranked, but NS2 is (thankfully) not one of those games.
SuperMNC failed at it.
Never played another MOBA.
Tribes Ascend doesn't give a damn other than putting random players together in a server and making sure it doesn't throw any rookies with veterans.
Modern Warfare 2 failed horribly by completely scrapping dedicated servers and throwing people of all random skill levels together (and even allowing clans to wreck pubs in matchmaking by queueing them together).
TF2's new matchmaking is basically only of use if I want to be matched with players that I can fool as Dead Ringer Spy and go 40-0 on them, as opposed to playing on servers where people are too damn aware of everything.
On a side note: did the game get a review from some popular gaming site or is it on sale? Because I saw so many guys in every match that I played today who had absolutely no clue how to play aliens properly. Always running in a straight line at marines, not making use of walls and ceilings, not harassing RT or marine expansion, being afraid of fights, not communicating with the commander at all and easily ragequitting. And at least one but usually two green names in every match on the alien team.
Didn't see any of that yesterday, but all out of the sudden were almost no able players on the alien teams today and most matches ended in a stompy marine victory.
Just a few minutes ago I joined a match that was about 10 minutes into the game and 10 minutes later was I leading the scoreboard of my alien team by far, despite the marines stomping us. Doesn't feel good. :(
Never played another MOBA.
Tribes Ascend doesn't give a damn other than putting random players together in a server and making sure it doesn't throw any rookies with veterans.
Modern Warfare 2 failed horribly by completely scrapping dedicated servers and throwing people of all random skill levels together (and even allowing clans to wreck pubs in matchmaking by queueing them together).
TF2's new matchmaking is basically only of use if I want to be matched with players that I can fool as Dead Ringer Spy and go 40-0 on them, as opposed to playing on servers where people are too damn aware of everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sc2 wc3 LoL HoN DotA 2 are the one I got to try for myself and I found them to be very good. theyre all basically the same, you win games you get an amount of points thats relative to the the average ranking of your opponents, so once you reach an amount of ranking points that represents your skill level well you will be more likely to be matched with and against ppl of your caliber and maybe increase your ranking as you improve you skill level.
I dont play CoD so i have no idea what its like. I dont doubt match making can be done wrong but whenever I experienced it, it seemed to add to the fun of the game by putting something at stakes that forces you and your team to come together if you want to have a god chance to win.
How would the game even determine who to match people with? How do you tell skill? Compatibility? Server climate? Mods? Matchmaking works fine for console games where all servers are flash-hosted or dev hosted and players are ranked, but NS2 is (thankfully) not one of those games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't seen a server yet that just kicks people for anything aside from grieving or reserved slot kicks. I've never seen reserved slot kicking kick based on skill, I've seen it kick based on ping and I've seen it kick the player with the shortest play time.
I can't think of a place where this thing you're referencing exists. Pick up games, maybe, but not in pubs.
3rd party servers that are possibly running mods means this will never happen
Match making is for games where the company hosts everything and then has access to better statistical tracking where rank and ratings might mean something
Although it would be amusing to think that in a perfect match making system that all the cheaters would be forces to play with each other on one server
I can't think of a place where this thing you're referencing exists. Pick up games, maybe, but not in pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sometimes stubborn newbies are indistinguishable from griefers.
I dont play CoD so i have no idea what its like. I dont doubt match making can be done wrong but whenever I experienced it, it seemed to add to the fun of the game by putting something at stakes that forces you and your team to come together if you want to have a god chance to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well SC and WC are primarily played 1 v 1 so it is far simpler to create an accurate matchmaking system, MOBAs are played 5v5 and the players are locked for the whole duration of the game, if you let people jump in and out during rounds and have variable team sizes it skews the accuracy of your matchmaking rating. They also have far larger playerbases than NS2 so if you want to do lobby queues for games you get more closely matched teams with smaller wait times.
SMNC the MOBA/FPS with matchmaking failed because the game playerbase was way too small for the length of the games and the skill gap was far too large. New players would get thrown in against the main population after like 15 games and steamrolled and probably quit soon after. Then the skill gap between the average player and the top was huge. There were around 10-15 actual good players in the entire game when it started out with peaks of 6k a day, so it would end up with stuff like we'd queue in a premade 5v5 to wait 20-40 minutes to stomp the other team in 4 minutes or I'd play solo queue and lose one game the entire day while playing the worst class for carrying pubs. Plus the dev team balanced things around the whining of low skill players on the beta team in their private forums.
it doesn't even make sense in theory...
would you rather let the game decide a match based on some bs algorithm OR freely choose to join a game which says 'we kick noobs!' etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's more common in strategy games (starcraft, age of empires, chess, etc.)
NS2 badly needs it because the games are too long and aren't even fun unless the teams are perfectly even. they don't need to do full ELO or anything, but something as simple as shuffle teams by <broad estimate of skill> would easily be 10 times better than status quo. even allowing completely random shuffle + restart after the game has started would be better than what we have
yeah you can kick noobs after the round, but the damage is already done at that point and more will join later. and it isn't really friendly... all they need to do is put 3 newbs on each team instead of allowing 6 on one team
They had a matchmaking system in the works in the late beta, but it was scrapped because it didn't really work. Hopefully they are working on it.
6v6 matchmaking where you are able to queue as a commander or field player, I wantz it.
Also, this game requires a lot of strategy and the way in which every pub game starts just doesnt fit the amount of organization needed to experience ns2 to its maximum. I think a typical game will start with maybe half the ppl on server in the rr just chatting, afking, trying to stack. you cant make a plan of what you want your team to do if you can only communicate it to half your team as the game starts.
Right now if you're commanding on a pub, your role is to provide a healthy environment for your team so they can play their little mindless teamdeathmatch, because trying to do any sort of strategy is a waste of time, no one cares, they just wanna chew on marines and shoot skulks.
There needs to be a default mode for servers that allows for less variable teams and more effective planing. Also there needs to be incentives in place so ppl are motivated to win the game. My ideas would be, particular skins if a certain amount of win is reached (a la sc2 icons), or ranking points that allows you to show your e-peen to everyone
I think a good analogy would be comparing the pub years of dota on wc3 with the current state of moba games with match making, lots of planing time to choose heroes carefully and make sure you have lots of synergy with your team. Before that you would just pick whatever hero you feel like playing cus you dont really care about the outcome you just wanna have some fun. If game doesnt go your way oh well just leave.
Now, does NS2 have the player pool to be able to offer at least the option to play with players of your level instead of having a soup o different skill level. Also can it provide an incentive to win games rather than an incentive to get good kd (ty ns2stats).
So ya, I realize that my post is a bit all over the place but I just wanna bounce balls with you guys about this, because I really think something could be done to reduce this rampant frustration that lowers the fun this game has to offer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But how would you rank players? Winrates of pubgames alone wouldn't suffice, since it's so random and easily skewed. And K/D ratio or score/minute doesn't mean that much either.
If you want better games, I'd rather see a built in PUG system first. Where people could pick a map, the side they wish to play on, the server location, and would then automatically pool together with random teammates and opponents. It might take a bit longer to get a game going, but that'll separate the casual players from the ones who're looking for a more experienced playing field anyway.
Then, when you have this sort of system in place, you could take the winrates of indivuals in those random PUG games to rank the players, and use that ranking to balance the match-ups of following PUG games.
The "casuals" would be playing this match making system for the same reasons that they play dota 2 or any other game with match making.
Also, if the public chaos is appealing just mod it, people would still play.
It's glorious.
In my experience, winrates in pubs are not random, but highly related to the skill level of each side (most specifically to how well the marine team can shoot). The best approach I've seen for a NS2 Elo-style ranking system would be:
- Percentage of losing teams summed individual Elo-rating is transferred to the winning team
- The Elo-points won or lost are distributed among the teams by their score*
*This is predicated on the score system being updated such that things such as healing/reparing and assists give points.
But what makes a player "better"? How do you know if a good player is being incredibly helpful, but just not standing out while doing it?
I think aggregate accuracy is NS2's definitive (and conveniently objective and quantitative) measure of player proficiency. New players can't hit, skilled players can't miss, and the game is set up in such a way that if you posses the capacity to learn from your mistakes, your accuracy increases along with your general skill and understanding of game mechanics.
Who says skilled players can't miss? What if I'm a great team player, or I like to fire suppresively? What if I like LMGs better than Shotguns? What if I main Gorge or Lerk?
Who gives a crap how accurate you are if you get the job done?
Sometimes I don't miss ... usually when shooting alien upgrades.
Now thats a magnetic target, if ever there was one.
Number one thing I am disapointed in myself: Continuing on down the cyst chain rather than taking out the res node ... newbie Put is newbie Put.
This feature is a MUST for NS2, if ofcourse UWE wants the game to grow. Because there are many people who get annoyed with unbalanced / meaningless matches. They're annoying as heck and are a waste of time.
human judgment across multiple games
i know dozens of ways the scores are flawed, but the trend is that better players get higher scores on average in pubs
maybe if you are a specialist lerk/gorge and never do anything else it won't work for you, but most people go for variety outside of a competitive setting
i know dozens of ways the scores are flawed, but the trend is that better players get higher scores on average in pubs
maybe if you are a specialist lerk/gorge and never do anything else it won't work for you, but most people go for variety outside of a competitive setting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically, you're the ultimate arbiter of skill? What if someone else disagrees with you over how skilled they are? Does their opinion not matter?
I see people who come to pubs to stomp getting high points. I see good players who come to pubs for a good time getting anywhere from top to bottom points, and for a variety of reasons. Many command, many play support, many contribute in ways that aren't measured by score, many sacrifice themselves to help their teammates, and many just aren't constantly super-seriousing the hell out of the game.
I play matches with nothing but my Welder. Does that make me a good player or a bad one?
Ranking: <b>NO</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=2036781:date=Nov 28 2012, 04:08 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Nov 28 2012, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It works wonders in SC2. Sure, you still get stomps, but it greatly reduces the frequency of Platinum v Bronze contests that occur regularly in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only this game had the game frequency and numbers of SC2...
Just look at L4D. Team mm is pretty much dead, and even that game has the number of players of NS2 in times and only requires 4 in a team.
Who gives a crap how accurate you are if you get the job done?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misunderstand. Mechanically, players who are more experienced, players who have more time invested and thus are more skilled, those players are more accurate. Over time, if you are improving as a player, your total accuracy will go up. Outside of pre-scheduled matches, people generally don't play gorge one hundred percent of the time, and even assuming they do, rolling the hydra accuracy into the player's totals will balance that out (similarly, weighting Lerk spikes and shotgun blasts differently will balance the outcome). Extended suppressing fire is behavior that, in NS2, doesn't make any sense, and as such, counts against your accuracy and thus your potential skill rating, while short bursts on rare occasions to keep a skulk's snout out won't negatively affect the overall accuracy of a skilled player, they will make up for it over time.
I agree, accuracy isn't of huge importance, but I have observed that players who can shoot well are just better players. They understand the ebb and flow of battles, they know where they need to be and what they need to do. If UWE is spitballing for an easy, quantitative measurement that they can use as a yardstick, accuracy is an easy, low hanging fruit.
<!--quoteo(post=2036901:date=Nov 28 2012, 06:12 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Nov 28 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sedek, awareness. When to die, why, and *Where.*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Objectively judging the necessity of a death is not impossible, but highly difficult to do, especially if you and the game wind up disagreeing about how necessary it was to die in a situation. The discussion here is about how best to implement a quantitative measurement of a player's abilities for the purpose of matching players of similar skill level together.