<!--quoteo(post=2037270:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:01 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 29 2012, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah god forbid NS2 have a playerbase of tens of thousands of players who keep playing for years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it would necessarily be a bad thing, CoD:4 was a huge step forward in how multiplayer games are constructed.
Now I say why I think it is a bad idea: Arbitrary rewards like that make actually playing the game less fun, and lead to worse retention of players after the rewards run out. There was a study that showed the effect with rewarding children for playing with toys, which I have not been successful in digging up in a quick google search. But here is a link to someone more knowledgeable on games than me commenting on the subject: <a href="http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2010/12/jon-blow-on-rewards/" target="_blank">http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2010/12/jon-blow-on-rewards/</a>
EDIT: It's called the overjustification effect apparently: <a href="http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html" target="_blank">http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html</a> And here is a link to the paper (well, the abstract, apparently you need to buy the full paper): <a href="http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1974-10497-001" target="_blank">http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.op...=1974-10497-001</a>
Please no RPG elements. I don't care what other games do. And while I wish UWE all the success in the world, I personally only need a single server that is full every night with people I like. Everyone else can go play COD or whatever.
EDIT: It's called the overjustification effect apparently: <a href="http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html" target="_blank">http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html</a> And here is a link to the paper (well, the abstract, apparently you need to buy the full paper): <a href="http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1974-10497-001" target="_blank">http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.op...=1974-10497-001</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, let's compare a single study with a small sample of infants and toddlers whose brains have not even fully developed to adults five times their age and declare it an absolute truth. Then let's take a big wordy article that is full of nothing but speculation, written by a college dropout who made one game (so much experience in the game industry!), and again pretend it's an absolute truth.
Then we can compare it to everyone's favorite steamgraphs and I'll let you show me where the ranks and achievements are having a negative effect on any game you chose.
It takes hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gameplay to 'max out' these games. Not only that, but tiring your community of your game is sound business practice, it makes it easier to sell them a sequel in the future. Counter-Strike's sequels have all failed to move the community from the original game, because CS 1.6 fans only want CS 1.6, and the best CS:S and CS:GO can hope to do is try to emulate CS 1.6. But why would they stop playing CS 1.6 to pay money to play a game that's LIKE CS 1.6 when they can play CS 1.6 for free?
I said it before, I'll say it again: How does a toxic community of fanboys and hangers-on playing a game for eight years stop UWE from going out of business in eight months?
There was a progression system on a modded ns1 server and it worked pretty well. All it did was force fair teams which resulted in great matches. It also made it easier to pick a commander and give him some authority. Not because he could punish you, because there was this icon that showed he played a good amount of games and knows what he does. Edit: To be clear, I would not like to see achievements or unlocks.
<!--quoteo(post=2037040:date=Nov 28 2012, 11:12 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 28 2012, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best GPU pick at the moment is a GTX 660Ti. (Bang per buck) It's a 305% improvement from your 285, <b>and both cheaper and faster than it's direct competitor on the Radeon side.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats just wrong. With new drivers a HD7950 is much much faster especially when overclocked for almost the same price.
<!--quoteo(post=2037986:date=Nov 30 2012, 01:15 PM:name=hjalti8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hjalti8 @ Nov 30 2012, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just wrong. With new drivers a HD7950 is much much faster especially when overclocked for almost the same price.
SOURCE: <a href="http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/fall_2012_gpu_driver_comparison_roundup/" target="_blank">http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/...arison_roundup/</a> <a href="http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/" target="_blank">http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not just about raw speeds; AMD has a very real chance of going under in the not too distant future, with the way their stock has been plummeting and the massive losses they've posted. Additionally, whille AMD cards tend to be more powerful, they also tend to have more issues and glitches than NVIDIA ones.
AMD for crypto-mining or brute force computing, NVIDIA for gaming. My two cents.
<!--quoteo(post=2037996:date=Nov 30 2012, 12:34 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 30 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not just about raw speeds; AMD has a very real chance of going under in the not too distant future, with the way their stock has been plummeting and the massive losses they've posted. Additionally, whille AMD cards tend to be more powerful, they also tend to have more issues and glitches than NVIDIA ones.
AMD for crypto-mining or brute force computing, NVIDIA for gaming. My two cents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you would rather buy a NV card with a cheap pcb, half the memory bus width, 1gb less vram, no voltage control and ultimately delivers less avg. fps and much less min. fps just because amd/ati screwed up their drivers some years ago?? I wonder why AMD is going bankrupt :)
<!--quoteo(post=2038001:date=Nov 30 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 30 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't aware anyone still took AMD seriously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you would be surprised: <a href="http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2285966" target="_blank">http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2285966</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2037957:date=Nov 30 2012, 01:02 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 30 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, let's compare a single study with a small sample of infants and toddlers whose brains have not even fully developed to adults five times their age and declare it an absolute truth. Then let's take a big wordy article that is full of nothing but speculation, written by a college dropout who made one game (so much experience in the game industry!), and again pretend it's an absolute truth.
Then we can compare it to everyone's favorite steamgraphs and I'll let you show me where the ranks and achievements are having a negative effect on any game you chose.
It takes hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gameplay to 'max out' these games. Not only that, but tiring your community of your game is sound business practice, it makes it easier to sell them a sequel in the future. Counter-Strike's sequels have all failed to move the community from the original game, because CS 1.6 fans only want CS 1.6, and the best CS:S and CS:GO can hope to do is try to emulate CS 1.6. But why would they stop playing CS 1.6 to pay money to play a game that's LIKE CS 1.6 when they can play CS 1.6 for free?
I said it before, I'll say it again: How does a toxic community of fanboys and hangers-on playing a game for eight years stop UWE from going out of business in eight months?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I offer you science and civility, you offer mockery.
Oh, and if business comes before good game design, let's just make NS2 free free to play (you can pay to play as exo or onos), give it a ton of achievements, have it spam all of your twitter and facebook friends. It may turn it into a steaming sack of crap, but hey, at least it pays the bills, right?
285 is better than 660 at what it can do (limited by dx 10 etc, 1Gig vs 2 etc) duw to the 512bit Memory bandwidth compared to a 660's 192bit. A 2Gb 285 (if it existed) would carve up a 660.
<!--quoteo(post=2037986:date=Nov 30 2012, 12:15 PM:name=hjalti8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hjalti8 @ Nov 30 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html" target="_blank">Take your silly misinformation and fanboyism out of here.</a>
There is literally one application at which Radeon has an edge over Nvidia, and that is multi-monitor set-ups where memory bandwith actually means a damn thing. Which maybe 1% of gamers bother with.
Not to mention, there are factory OC 660Ti's with greater clock speeds than you can achieve on a Radeon OC'd by the user, even with watercooling. Namely Sapphire and Zotac's OC editions.
<!--quoteo(post=2038246:date=Nov 30 2012, 10:59 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 30 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html" target="_blank">Take your silly misinformation and fanboyism out of here.</a>
There is literally one application at which Radeon has an edge over Nvidia, and that is multi-monitor set-ups where memory bandwith actually means a damn thing. Which maybe 1% of gamers bother with.
Not to mention, there are factory OC 660Ti's with greater clock speeds than you can achieve on a Radeon OC'd by the user, even with watercooling. Namely Sapphire and Zotac's OC editions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't post that silly passmark benchmark to prove your point.
Do you really think memory bandwidth doesn´t mean a thing? Then you are wrong again. Because it has great affect to minimum fps:
The only difference between a gtx670 and a 660ti is rops count and memory bandwidth:
When you overclock the core on the 660ti you will still be crippled by that tiny memory bus so the gains will be very small no matter how far you go(you cant even go far because of locked voltage).
But on the 7950 you have HUGE overclocking headroom due to memory bandwidth and unlocked voltage. A 7950@1100mhz deliveres similar performace as a 7970ghz which destroys the gtx680 with new drivers:
still don't believe me? check <a href="http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2285966" target="_blank">this</a> thread.
OR check out some reviews with RECENT drivers: <a href="http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Catalyst_12.11_Performance/1.html" target="_blank">http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Cat...formance/1.html</a> <a href="http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/fall_2012_gpu_driver_comparison_roundup/" target="_blank">http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/...arison_roundup/</a> <a href="http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/" target="_blank">http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/</a> <a href="http://www.anandtech.com/show/6393/amds-holiday-plans-cat1211-new-bundle" target="_blank">http://www.anandtech.com/show/6393/amds-ho...1211-new-bundle</a>
You also have to consider the improvements of 12.11 drivers for AMD. <img src="http://tpucdn.com/reviews/AMD/Catalyst_12.11_Performance/images/perfrel.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
I'm not saying it would necessarily be a bad thing, CoD:4 was a huge step forward in how multiplayer games are constructed.
Now I say why I think it is a bad idea: Arbitrary rewards like that make actually playing the game less fun, and lead to worse retention of players after the rewards run out. There was a study that showed the effect with rewarding children for playing with toys, which I have not been successful in digging up in a quick google search. But here is a link to someone more knowledgeable on games than me commenting on the subject:
<a href="http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2010/12/jon-blow-on-rewards/" target="_blank">http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2010/12/jon-blow-on-rewards/</a>
EDIT: It's called the overjustification effect apparently: <a href="http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html" target="_blank">http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html</a>
And here is a link to the paper (well, the abstract, apparently you need to buy the full paper): <a href="http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1974-10497-001" target="_blank">http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.op...=1974-10497-001</a>
EDIT: It's called the overjustification effect apparently: <a href="http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html" target="_blank">http://explorable.com/overjustification-effect.html</a>
And here is a link to the paper (well, the abstract, apparently you need to buy the full paper): <a href="http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1974-10497-001" target="_blank">http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.op...=1974-10497-001</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, let's compare a single study with a small sample of infants and toddlers whose brains have not even fully developed to adults five times their age and declare it an absolute truth. Then let's take a big wordy article that is full of nothing but speculation, written by a college dropout who made one game (so much experience in the game industry!), and again pretend it's an absolute truth.
Then we can compare it to everyone's favorite steamgraphs and I'll let you show me where the ranks and achievements are having a negative effect on any game you chose.
It takes hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gameplay to 'max out' these games. Not only that, but tiring your community of your game is sound business practice, it makes it easier to sell them a sequel in the future. Counter-Strike's sequels have all failed to move the community from the original game, because CS 1.6 fans only want CS 1.6, and the best CS:S and CS:GO can hope to do is try to emulate CS 1.6. But why would they stop playing CS 1.6 to pay money to play a game that's LIKE CS 1.6 when they can play CS 1.6 for free?
I said it before, I'll say it again: How does a toxic community of fanboys and hangers-on playing a game for eight years stop UWE from going out of business in eight months?
Edit: To be clear, I would not like to see achievements or unlocks.
Thats just wrong. With new drivers a HD7950 is much much faster especially when overclocked for almost the same price.
SOURCE:
<a href="http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/fall_2012_gpu_driver_comparison_roundup/" target="_blank">http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/...arison_roundup/</a>
<a href="http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/" target="_blank">http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/</a>
SOURCE:
<a href="http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/fall_2012_gpu_driver_comparison_roundup/" target="_blank">http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/...arison_roundup/</a>
<a href="http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/" target="_blank">http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not just about raw speeds; AMD has a very real chance of going under in the not too distant future, with the way their stock has been plummeting and the massive losses they've posted. Additionally, whille AMD cards tend to be more powerful, they also tend to have more issues and glitches than NVIDIA ones.
AMD for crypto-mining or brute force computing, NVIDIA for gaming. My two cents.
AMD for crypto-mining or brute force computing, NVIDIA for gaming. My two cents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you would rather buy a NV card with a cheap pcb, half the memory bus width, 1gb less vram, no voltage control and ultimately delivers less avg. fps and much less min. fps just because amd/ati screwed up their drivers some years ago?? I wonder why AMD is going bankrupt :)
you would be surprised: <a href="http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2285966" target="_blank">http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2285966</a>
Then we can compare it to everyone's favorite steamgraphs and I'll let you show me where the ranks and achievements are having a negative effect on any game you chose.
It takes hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gameplay to 'max out' these games. Not only that, but tiring your community of your game is sound business practice, it makes it easier to sell them a sequel in the future. Counter-Strike's sequels have all failed to move the community from the original game, because CS 1.6 fans only want CS 1.6, and the best CS:S and CS:GO can hope to do is try to emulate CS 1.6. But why would they stop playing CS 1.6 to pay money to play a game that's LIKE CS 1.6 when they can play CS 1.6 for free?
I said it before, I'll say it again: How does a toxic community of fanboys and hangers-on playing a game for eight years stop UWE from going out of business in eight months?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I offer you science and civility, you offer mockery.
Oh, and if business comes before good game design, let's just make NS2 free free to play (you can pay to play as exo or onos), give it a ton of achievements, have it spam all of your twitter and facebook friends. It may turn it into a steaming sack of crap, but hey, at least it pays the bills, right?
285 is better than 660 at what it can do (limited by dx 10 etc, 1Gig vs 2 etc) duw to the 512bit Memory bandwidth compared to a 660's 192bit. A 2Gb 285 (if it existed) would carve up a 660.
<a href="http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html" target="_blank">Take your silly misinformation and fanboyism out of here.</a>
There is literally one application at which Radeon has an edge over Nvidia, and that is multi-monitor set-ups where memory bandwith actually means a damn thing. Which maybe 1% of gamers bother with.
Not to mention, there are factory OC 660Ti's with greater clock speeds than you can achieve on a Radeon OC'd by the user, even with watercooling. Namely Sapphire and Zotac's OC editions.
There is literally one application at which Radeon has an edge over Nvidia, and that is multi-monitor set-ups where memory bandwith actually means a damn thing. Which maybe 1% of gamers bother with.
Not to mention, there are factory OC 660Ti's with greater clock speeds than you can achieve on a Radeon OC'd by the user, even with watercooling. Namely Sapphire and Zotac's OC editions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't post that silly passmark benchmark to prove your point.
Do you really think memory bandwidth doesn´t mean a thing? Then you are wrong again. Because it has great affect to minimum fps:
The only difference between a gtx670 and a 660ti is rops count and memory bandwidth:
<img src="http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6159/49191.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
When you overclock the core on the 660ti you will still be crippled by that tiny memory bus so the gains will be very small no matter how far you go(you cant even go far because of locked voltage).
But on the 7950 you have HUGE overclocking headroom due to memory bandwidth and unlocked voltage. A 7950@1100mhz deliveres similar performace as a 7970ghz which destroys the gtx680 with new drivers:
<img src="http://www.hardocp.com/images/articles/1352691741F74TQBhKZT_3_4_l.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
still don't believe me? check <a href="http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2285966" target="_blank">this</a> thread.
OR check out some reviews with RECENT drivers:
<a href="http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Catalyst_12.11_Performance/1.html" target="_blank">http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Cat...formance/1.html</a>
<a href="http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/fall_2012_gpu_driver_comparison_roundup/" target="_blank">http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/11/12/...arison_roundup/</a>
<a href="http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/" target="_blank">http://www.techspot.com/review/603-best-graphics-cards/</a>
<a href="http://www.anandtech.com/show/6393/amds-holiday-plans-cat1211-new-bundle" target="_blank">http://www.anandtech.com/show/6393/amds-ho...1211-new-bundle</a>
<img src="http://tpucdn.com/reviews/AMD/Catalyst_12.11_Performance/images/perfrel.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />