NS2 - Not even nearly ready for competitive play
getz
Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20409Members
Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20409Members
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they already know what the problems are small son. Why would i regurgitate the same ###### back to them?
In case you didn't notice, my idea is to un-release the game. This is an idea and/or suggestion
Some people will or won't agree. However, I know deep down the NS dev's can agree.. they rushed out this game prematurely
My name is Michael and I've played NS for about 6 years now.
I would just like to say please fix this game; it is not ready for competitive play.
Please stop running competitive tournaments; you're making baby jesus cry.
Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi,
My name is Steven and I've played NS for about 10 years now.
I would just like to say that you made a garbage troll thread.
NS is not about "competitive play," never has, and never will be. So I'm not sure what you’re getting at here.
It's a wildly creative and fun game. It never really could fit into the competitive mold of something boring like Counter-Strike or TF2. Nor should it.
Just play and have fun.
But unrelease it? Nah that is a bit extreme. Maybe just make people more aware that they are buying a work-in-progress. I was one such person who saw the game released, though "Oh I loved ns1, this will be fun!" and just bought it. I assumed it was 100% completed. I was pretty upset at first when I realized how much work the game still needs but the game is still very fun and I'd rather be able to play it unfinished than not be able to play it at all.
Even during beta there were competitive matches, which were also live streamed on TwitchTV. And yes those were sometimes on an unbalanced patch or even on a patch that was just released before the tournament.
Now with the game at v1.0 (as of build 227) the patches have been put on a new schedule, so instead of a bi-weekly or weekly schedule it is at a much slower pace. Simply because of the fact that releasing a balance patch every week will just drive away players.
There have been official NS2 tournaments with prizes, even during beta :)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/9/the_guru_beta_tournament" target="_blank">The Guru Beta Tournament</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/10/logitech_beta_tournament_results" target="_blank">Logitech Beta Tournament</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/11/esl_tournament_and_7_days_of_ns2" target="_blank">ESL Launch Tournament</a>
And there is loads of archived footage both from casting perspectiva as FPS/RTS gameplay on TwitchTV channels, have a look at <a href="http://ns2hub.com/streams" target="_blank">NS2Hub</a>
Pretty sure NS2 was mildly marketed for competitive play. Now I'm not saying that NS2 is competitive by any means, neither am I saying it isn't. I honestly don't know. But this seems to be on UWs agenda.
Hello it is nice to meet you. I would like to just say that when you "release" a game you are implying that the game is in fact "read to play". I do not think it is necessary to mention out of my 10 friends I asked to purchase this game only 4 can run the game about 20 FPS. You are directing your post towards "balance" rather then "bugs". Tell me if you're completely new to the game and establish all the bugs in a game in a first week that hinder the enjoyment of the game are you going to continue to play when you've got so many other titles on your shelf? No.
<!--quoteo(post=2038389:date=Dec 1 2012, 12:03 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 1 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi,
My name is Steven and I've played NS for about 10 years now.
I would just like to say that you made a garbage troll thread.
NS is not about "competitive play," never has, and never will be. So I'm not sure what you’re getting at here.
It's a wildly creative and fun game. It never really could fit into the competitive mold of something boring like Counter-Strike or TF2. Nor should it.
Just play and have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi Steven. I'd like to remind you that your UWE account is only 7-8 months older then mine. I would also like to hear about your marketing ideas for the player base of this 'non-competitive' game you keep talking about. I would then further like to direct you to all the "balance" changes and "tournament mods" that have been and/or are being created surrounding the game. I don't really feel the need to talk to you any further as I assume you were one of those "lets play co" or "lets play custom maps and gorge in vents" kinda guys back in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2038426:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:31 PM:name=joederp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (joederp @ Dec 1 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are there official NS2 "tournaments" ? If so that does seem a bit odd, the game isn't clean or efficient enough to have tournaments especially when there is a game balance patch every week.
But unrelease it? Nah that is a bit extreme. Maybe just make people more aware that they are buying a work-in-progress. I was one such person who saw the game released, though "Oh I loved ns1, this will be fun!" and just bought it. I assumed it was 100% completed. I was pretty upset at first when I realized how much work the game still needs but the game is still very fun and I'd rather be able to play it unfinished than not be able to play it at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are many official tournaments. And inside these many official tournaments are replayed games/matches due to bugs occurring that impact the outcome of the game
Anyway for the idiots that are asking for my change log, like I said "regurgitating" the same old ###### UWE have already heard over-and-over and probably have on their to-do-lists coming out 2014 just like NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a few points i'd like to address, and as some of you could have expected the first point I would like to address is the most retarded game mechanic/strategy in competitive play - Command Chair Rushing
<b>the problems with command chair rushing</b>
- there are no notifcations for the commander when this is happening
- beacon is BUGGED (cannot select beacon sometimes either by using hot key S or left clicking)
- cannot cancel beacon
- beacon does not bring dead players alive
<b>Some of the things in NS1 that prevented this being a liable strategy, which I have no idea why they changed.</b>
- observatorys could be placed anywhere (need power now)
- command chairs could be placed anywhere (fair enough they changed this i don't mind this change)
- motion tracking was researchable
- obs scan costed energy rather then resources
- mines triggered instantly
- mines did more damage
- control groups worked correctly
<b>suggestions to fix this</b>
- have a button that costs 10 t-resources, fortify command chair for 3-5 seconds
<b>Why is this a problem? you can just build a second command chair or second obs blah blah</b>
- because it's a complete and total waste of resources. Why are marines forced to "drag out" the game and setup a second base with these incredibly expensive expenditures of resources when you can just finish the game quicker?
<b>moving away from the command chair, to the other aspects of the game</b>
- the fade blink sound bug occurs way too often
- obviously the game runs like a POS (they know about this)
- some maps are retarded due to marine seige position
- no focus means that nano shield and medpacking are way too viable (especially when medpacks only cost 1 resource)
- TBH fades are only 'slightly' weak, not as bad as people are making it out to be. I think one of the reasons people think fade are too weak is because they removed focus and maybe changed a few values such as carapace armor? think it used to give 125
- you can only put 3 turrets down to protect an area, which cannot cover all areas of backdooring
- weapon rego is terrible
- grenades AOE is too big and/or too damaging to lifeforms
- adrenaline is practically useless
- xeno/vortex are practically useless
- jetpack energy and flying is bad, and you can not normally jump while having a jetpack
- glancing is retarded, takes away from the skill aspect of the game and impliments LUCK/CHANCE
- the alien and marine HUD is boring (perhaps include commanders current researching status)
- does not give you a time frame on researching (without somebody going outside of the game to memorise research times)
- the commander huds are very terrible
- there is a bug where you sometimes can't upgrade to a particular upgrade (silence/celerity etc)
- refinery command chair sound bug (plays lava sound incredibly loud)
- the way aliens get p and t resources is not balanced in 6v6
- lifeform eggs get stuck all the time
<b>some suggestions</b>
- Install a new research upgrade for aliens that includes focus, +1 (perhaps scent of fear?),
- otherwise add +1 upgrades to the already 3 existing hives upgrades
- setup slight incrimental armor/damage upgrades for aliens<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.ausns2.org/forum/post1932.html#p1932" target="_blank">Source</a>
MFW When you learn the definition of "trolling". "Hate/Hating" would be much better terminology. But i'm not "trolling" anybody
UWE have done a great job for their resources (kudos), but anybody that thinks the game should have been released is crazy. UWE had to release it because the release date had been set to "summer 2012", and they even pushed that as far as they could without risking serious PR damage.
The alpha was an engine alpha and the beta was an engine beta, the game was always in ALPHA. The tool-chain is still definitely beta.
IMO the gameplay beta didnt start until build 190-200 odd, when my performance went from 20fps to 40fps (unless there were hydras in the room!), although hopefully we see some engine changes like faster LUA vm, etc.
This is regarding bug fixing, not 'balance' issues.
UWE have done a great job for their resources (kudos), but anybody that thinks the game should have been released is crazy. UWE had to release it because the release date had been set to "summer 2012", and they even pushed that as far as they could without risking serious PR damage.
The alpha was an engine alpha and the beta was an engine beta, the game was always in ALPHA. The tool-chain is still definitely beta.
IMO the gameplay beta didnt start until build 190-200 odd, when my performance went from 20fps to 40fps (unless there were hydras in the room!), although hopefully we see some engine changes like faster LUA vm, etc.
This is regarding bug fixing, not 'balance' issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate hearing from somebody who agree's, as I didn't think many would. And yes like you said I am aware that UWE know about the problems and it's in their change list however, the game isn't ready for the masses. A lot of my friends not from NS1 are already being turned away from the game due to their bug/problem experiences
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would just like to say please fix this game; it is not ready for competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my idea is to un-release the game. This is an idea and/or suggestion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixing it and 'unreleasing it' (which isn't even possible) are two different things.
You don't like the state of the game? That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion. However, games don't get 'unreleased'. Suggesting such shows complete ignorance of the principle behind releasing a game to begin with. If the developers were to consider 'removing the game from sale' they might as well pack up and go home. As someone who has worked in the gaming industry, you just don't do it.
Secondly, as noted, the game is not marketed to competitive players, and it never has been. Do competitive players play it? Sure. Do they hold tourneys? Sure. Was NS2 designed and built with them in mind? No. That doesn't mean that the developers don't want competitive players playing, every game developer welcomes competitive players. The problem is that 'competitive players' are small in numbers and that won't pay the bills.
Games like this have one audience, and that is the 'average joe gamer'. They're the people who will be buying this game in sufficient numbers to sustain development. You seem to think that 'Unknown Worlds' is sitting on piles of cash. Every month that they sit on the game it costs them money, and that money has to come from somewhere. Waiting too much longer and there may not have been a game at all.
I've been involved with NS since its pre-release days in NS1 over 10 years ago, and NS2 is certainly 'far enough along' for release. While I might have waited an extra month, it probably wouldn't have made too much difference. For video games you need to catch the Christmas rush. If you miss it you miss a HUGE chunk of sales. It basically means you lose a year.
So no, they won't be 'unreleasing' the game. Like it or not, NS2 is here and it won't be going anywhere.
Anyway, I'd say that most people actually agree with you in the sense that there are still MANY outstanding issues in the game that need to be addressed. However, the way you write makes you come off as an entitled assh0le.
At no point in your OP did you make any suggestions (beyond a generic 'fix the game'). It wasn't until you posted your changelog that any suggestions were made, and half of these weren't even suggestions. Saying stuff like 'x is bad' or 'x is retarded' or 'x is useless' or 'game runs like a POS' is hardly constructive and aren't even suggestions at all. What you have is a list of complaints disguised as a changelog. If you were looking to actually be constructive instead of statements like "adrenaline is practically useless", suggest how to change it like "adrenaline should be changed to have 150% energy regeneration and 150% total energy pool instead of 200% energy pool". Then people might respect what you have to say and not just think you're a complete tool.
The reason people think you're a troll is because your post is so full of irrational hate, has so little content, and makes you look like such a complete moron that you being a troll is actually a more likely possibility. If you are, I've likely played right into your hands, but if not, the next most likely possibility is that you're mentally challenged in some way, so you might benefit from things being explained to you. Pity I can't do it with sock puppets, because I'm sure that's how you're used to learning things.
<img src="http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/380/373/03a.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If UWE want to release an un-finished game for the masses and turn-away majority of sales that would come through friends-of-friends, that's their decision. I'm just expressing my disapproval for the decisions made by a brand I support
You don't need to remind them of it.
Now i agree, it's no NS1 and the whole point of the Spark engine and NS2 was just to do NS1.1 on a new game engine. It was intended that way from the start, somewhere along the lines UWE forgot about that, clearly.
Instead we have a game that has no flexibility, no value on utility and is overall boring to a majority of it's players. Things needs to change and the garbage list is alot bigger than yours.
<u><b>However everything else you were wrong about.</b></u>
NS1 had 100 teams per reigon, only reason it died competitively was because it was mismanaged by CAL and ended up hacker-infested.
NS2 has a solid competitive scene, i'll be warring tonight actually for the ENSL ladder.
Of which there are currently 24 teams in ENSL alone, there's there's CGL, AusNS2 (soon) and a couple of others i forgot about.
Not to mention, NS2 AND NS1 were both heavily balanced for competition. That's why you had up to 2-DAY long matches in NS1 pubs.
So really, while i agree that things need to change<u><b> - and heavily -</b></u> you are certainly a troll and your complete and utter lack of game or community knowledge proves that beyond any shadow of a doubt.
Of course the devs will ignore your post - you've given them ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to work with, even if they were desperate to address the concerns of a random person on their forums, and they picked YOU as today's random poster.
Look, maybe you have difficulty seeing things as other people might see them. People are not in your head. They do not know what you're trying to say, unless you explain it. Here's what someone might think, given the list you posted.
------
- the fade blink sound bug occurs way too often
<b>What bug? If it's a bug then any time is too often. How often would be about right for this bug? Also: Have you reported the bug as a bug? Because this is the suggestions forum, and I think "fix bugs" is a suggestion that most developers have taken on board.</b>
- obviously the game runs like a POS (they know about this)
<b>It works fine for me. It works fine for the 4 other people I know who play. So how does "it playes like a POS" help? What's the problem? What's your setup? How does this post help? Are you on a 386 with dialup? A clay tablet? What?</b>
- some maps are retarded due to marine seige position
<b>Which maps? Are the positions too strong or too weak? Or strong on some, weak on others? Where are they? What do you suggest?</b>
- no focus means that nano shield and medpacking are way too viable (especially when medpacks only cost 1 resource)
<b>And yet marines lose over and over and over and over and over and over and over... So you're saying: nerf marines?</b>
- TBH fades are only 'slightly' weak, not as bad as people are making it out to be. I think one of the reasons people think fade are too weak is because they removed focus and maybe changed a few values such as carapace armor? think it used to give 125
<b>You think that maybe the fades are a bit weak but maybe not and maybe a value is wrong and... aww, I dunno. <i>Fades</i>. Well, I expect the dev team to get right on that.</b>
- you can only put 3 turrets down to protect an area, which cannot cover all areas of backdooring
<b>If turrets could cover all areas, what's the point of players? I played in beta, and turret spam was boring as hell.</b>
- weapon rego is terrible
<b>How is it terrible? Is it a bad idea, or is a value wrong? In fact... WHAT is it? Registering hits, do you mean?</b>
- grenades AOE is too big and/or too damaging to lifeforms
<b>Grenades. A weapon quite rarely used, which almost always results in a messy death when an enemy gets close. Those are overpowered? Or are you saying they're underpowered as they damage the marine using them? Or do people not use whips where you are? Also: nerf marines?</b>
- adrenaline is practically useless
<b>Because aliens have too much power and don't need it, or because the alternative is too good, or because the regen it adds isn't enough? Or what?</b>
- xeno/vortex are practically useless
<b>Why? Is it too slow to activate, or have too small an effect, or use too much energy? Aliens already win almost every game on pub servers. You want them buffed? And what SHOULD it do? Remove it? Make it better? How?</b>
- jetpack energy and flying is bad, and you can not normally jump while having a jetpack
<b>Bad how? Is it too powerful? Is the control poor? Does the energy run out too fast? Is having energy at all too distracting? Is it bad for balance and atmoshpere? Does it make your pc lag? Is it, you know, just BAD, so morally suspect?</b>
- glancing is retarded, takes away from the skill aspect of the game and impliments LUCK/CHANCE
<b>Fair enough. A player on the forum said he didn't like something. The dev team will remove it immediately.</b>
- the alien and marine HUD is boring (perhaps include commanders current researching status)
<b>The HUD is boring? The HUD? Seriously. What do you want it to do? Play movies? It's a HUD!</b>
- does not give you a time frame on researching (without somebody going outside of the game to memorise research times)
<b>Really, does it matter? But hey, at least it's a concrete suggestion.</b>
- the commander huds are very terrible
<b>So it's boring and also terrible. Useful advice. Maybe.... make it pink? Will that help your boredom and/or terror? What should it do? Should dancing bannanas come on whenever your side gets a kill? What?</b>
- there is a bug where you sometimes can't upgrade to a particular upgrade (silence/celerity etc)
<b>So some unspecified upgrades don't work under unspecified conditions, 'sometimes'. Well that's certainly enough to be going on with. I'm sure they'll get right on it. Also: Have you reported the bug as a bug? Because this is the suggestions forum, and I think "fix bugs" is a suggestion that most developers have taken on board. </b>
- refinery command chair sound bug (plays lava sound incredibly loud)
<b>Have you reported the bug as a bug? Because this is the suggestions forum, and I think "fix bugs" is a suggestion that most developers have taken on board.</b>
- the way aliens get p and t resources is not balanced in 6v6
<b>Is it too powerful? Too weak? Too fast? Scales badly? Too easy to expand? Too hard? To resiliant? Not tough enough? Too quickly spent? Not spent fast enough? Are the marines too (slow / fast / well scaled / resiliant / weak / etc)? "Not balanced" means absolutely nothing.</b>
- lifeform eggs get stuck all the time
<b>Never seen it. Ever. Never heard anyone complain about it. Also: Have you reported the bug as a bug? Because this is the suggestions forum, and I thnk "fix bugs" is a suggestion that most developers have taken on board.</b>
some suggestions
- Install a new research upgrade for aliens that includes focus, +1 (perhaps scent of fear?),
<b>Why? What issue does it solve? Do you think that implementing any one-line idea that anoyne posts on a forum is a good way to develop a game?</b>
- otherwise add +1 upgrades to the already 3 existing hives upgrades
<b>Why? What issue does it solve? Do you think that implementing any one-line idea of anyone on a forum is a good way to develop a game?</b>
- setup slight incrimental armor/damage upgrades for aliens
<b>Why? What issue does it solve? Do you think that implementing any one-line idea of anyone on a forum is a good way to develop a game?</b>
Complaints are warrented. Lord knows there are many things that need attention. Just keep it constructive and civil. This isn't some massive gaming company with lots of money behind it. They have done an exceptional job with very little resources, and releasing the game was very important to bankroll further development. And as you said, the devs know what's wrong - so it will be worked on down the line. It's not like they're incompetent and not listening to the community. In fact, the opposite. Things are only going to get better with time. But not right away - there are only so many developers, though they are hard at work.
If you want to recommend your friends against buying the game, that's your choice. Just don't come on the forums, be nonsensically rude, and expect to accomplish anything apart from make a lot of people think you're a jerk or a troll.
no sorry, you are wrong. there would have been no damage dealt. remember summer 2009? thats when they lost all their liability. so you cant damage "nothing". there is just nothing else to lose.
but why do they release it? they are running out of money again.
Three problems.
1) Back in the day, all games were super-buggy and terrible when they were released. That is no longer the case, and there's more games than ever to play. The result is that players will give a game exactly one chance, and if it fails to impress - do you seriously think they're going to come back in several months and hope it's been fixed? And no, this isn't the fault of the players either. If I was going to buy a used car and when I got inside it smelled like someone peed on every surface, I'm not going to kindly wait for the owner to eventually clean it up on his own time, I'm going to find another car to buy.
This is no longer the late 90's / early 00's, and UWE needs to stop developing games like it is. NS2 had its shot on the front page of steam, and it tanked because they assumed it would be as easy to maintain a playerbase as it was back in the day when there were only three multiplayer FPS games, everyone owned all of them, and one of them had 20 different top multiplayer mods.
2) This community isn't strong. This community isn't even that good. Frankly this community is pretty awful. Masturbatory remarks about how helpful and nice we all think we are, the NS community has been awful for a long time, going back to NS1 days. Competitive teams all had extremely bad attitudes and were raging elitists and looked down on the pub scene. People constantly telling players with complaints to GTFO. Players berating other players for feeding RFK to the enemy or being too slow on the medspam and kicking them out of the chair. Worst case, this community is as bad as any other. I remember when Lunixmonster would ban clan players for various rule infringing (spawncamping was a big one, as well as team stacking), and they'd get their team to come in and troll the server until they were banned, and then make big crybaby threads all over the forum. At one point, Berger got the entire #nslearn community to try to DDoS the server or something. Yes, that's right, #NSLEARN was teaching newbies that they should hate certain servers because of all the butthurt.
3) The devs don't care. Criticism was made in beta and ignored. Back in NS1 days, I think it was NS2.0, it was thrown together in like two weeks, because the fun beta version before that had games they thought were "too long" even though everyone loved it. So they decided they knew better than the players and dumped that turd on us. Honestly this is the same problem Mechwarrior: Living Legends had - the project lead only cares about making *his* game and everyone else can get ######. The result was some extremely questionable design decisions and nobody could tell him otherwise. George Lucas Syndrome.
Sorry pure pheonix i'm not sure why you're talking about communities and ladders? I don't remember saying there was no communities or ladders? I'm not sure if you've got your names mixed up or whats going on.
Thanks for your input Smelly. I'm not going to read a single line of it, because everybody is entitled to their own opinions and everybody will have varying opinions about different things. I don't really care what your opinions are, but I really appreciate you caring about what mine are :) thanks for the feedback
Marketing has nothing to do with the "competitive" community. Marketing is about getting new people to spend money on your product.
The "competitive" community is pretty small and pretty niche, and mostly European and Australian for some reason.
UWE already has their money. What NS needs is to appeal to a larger market and bring in new cash flow. Small tweaks and getting bogged down in the ramifications of such small tweaks are the source of epic debate among spergy ultra "competitive" players. Where as to the casual gamer NS needs to attract those kinds of debates are pointless and scare them away.
I'm sure the number of tournament mods will be disproportionate to their relevance among the community at large because those types of people are infinitely more motivated to create the "competitive" game style they think they need.
My main point is that for NS to grow and flourish, it can’t be trying to gear itself mainly towards becoming a CAL Counter-Strike-esque hit. It can never be that kind of game at the “competitive†level, nor should it.
Counter-Strike is an excellent game for “professional gaming†(what a silly thing to say) because both teams are exactly the same, and have exactly the same weapons just reskined. It’s a very, very, very, simple game, perfectly balanced and predictable. NS is, and should be, nothing like that.
For the record I was never a huge fan of co, but I'm not one those "omg it killed NS" nutters ether. It could be fun. Not sure about gorges in vents though, but I hated most of the custom maps, so your 0 for 2 there.
There were quite a few ns1 newbies flooding in because of this actually.
It was only once they realised how team-centered it is that they decided it wasn't for them, or because they expected skulking to be more intense action.
StarCraft managed it, although most agree it was a miracle that it ended up as good as it did. I'm sure those millions of dollars and one of the most experienced game development teams around had a lot to do with it.
Not sure an indie company can pull it off, especially after we've embarked down the 'nerf rather than buff' road.
Basically I'm going to go and play stuff I got off the Steam fall sale and give UWE a chance to get this game out of Beta. The OP is totally right though, this game is nowhere near being valid competitively.
The team that almost always loses in competition is being nerfed even further. How that makes any kind of sense is beyond me, except to say that pub games are apparently too much for new players without even a tutorial outside of YouTube videos.
Kudos for a unique game, but that only gets you a pass for so long.