[Metagame] - "No Obs" Build Order seems to be dominating Marine Pub Games
MaximumSquid
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
It's a pretty easy setup to grasp. . .
Instead of getting a Observatory, Researching Phase Gates, Dropping 2-3 phase gates you skip all of it to save that 60-75 res for forward Infantry Portals, Mines, and other upgrades
Here's a recently game where <a href="http://ns2stats.org/player/player/12331" target="_blank">InjuredReserved</a> was commanding:
<img src="http://i2.minus.com/jrRmxaHXtyWir.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
2:00 - Very fast expansion with a 2nd IP and Mines to cover it
3:00 - Dual Arms Lab
5:30 - +1/+1 and Shotties
7:00 - +2/+2 and Advanced Armory
8:00 - game ends
Very little room for aliens to put up a counter with advanced lifeforms
I've seen 3 or 4 games go this way, but maps like Mineshaft and Veil become the exception where long walks to double make phase a priority <u>if you control it</u>
If you don't then it's just a 2nd base. . . this even works on maps with very long walks like Refinery
The only transition is for when aliens get cloaking and then you start dropping observatories obviously and move with larger groups with mines to cover your tracks
Aliens can do a similar strat by dropping a 2nd hive immediately, but it's a bit riskier and has a less reliable spawn point than marines do
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Instead of getting a Observatory, Researching Phase Gates, Dropping 2-3 phase gates you skip all of it to save that 60-75 res for forward Infantry Portals, Mines, and other upgrades
Here's a recently game where <a href="http://ns2stats.org/player/player/12331" target="_blank">InjuredReserved</a> was commanding:
<img src="http://i2.minus.com/jrRmxaHXtyWir.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
2:00 - Very fast expansion with a 2nd IP and Mines to cover it
3:00 - Dual Arms Lab
5:30 - +1/+1 and Shotties
7:00 - +2/+2 and Advanced Armory
8:00 - game ends
Very little room for aliens to put up a counter with advanced lifeforms
I've seen 3 or 4 games go this way, but maps like Mineshaft and Veil become the exception where long walks to double make phase a priority <u>if you control it</u>
If you don't then it's just a 2nd base. . . this even works on maps with very long walks like Refinery
The only transition is for when aliens get cloaking and then you start dropping observatories obviously and move with larger groups with mines to cover your tracks
Aliens can do a similar strat by dropping a 2nd hive immediately, but it's a bit riskier and has a less reliable spawn point than marines do
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Comments
As for obs, its underused by new commanders. They dont get the power of phasegates and beacon yet
As for that game, dual upgrades take around 5 RTs if Im not mistaken. Grabbing 5 RTs by the 3.50 mark and holding them would generally give marines a victory anyway surely?
This isn't true. . .
I've seen the base rushes and they fail because mines come out too soon
Once pressure is put on alien harvesters nobody will be coming to the marine base
<i>It just becomes suicide</i>
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<u><b>Techercizer:</b></u>
It seems to be a reoccurring theme at this point. . .
Someone always tosses out the "Your opponents weren't good enough" counter argument
Fast mines remove a lot of map control from aliens
Fights that start off 4on1 quickly turn into 1on1. . . I'm sure you've seen this happen
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My advice, stick to servers with 20 players or less. Its more balanced and the performance will be smoother.
Someone always tosses out the "Your opponents weren't good enough" counter argument
Fast mines remove a lot of map control from aliens
Fights that start off 4on1 quickly turn into 1on1. . . I'm sure you've seen this happen<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every once and a while, but I've seen people kill skulks with welders more often than that. Mines are really easy to avoid, and they're no substitute for a defensive force.
Mine placement can even the odds in an uneven engagement, but they won't stop the enemy team from running right <i>around</i> said engagement and eating your IPs. Nor will it stop half of them from zerging their troops directly into your minefield until your pres is depleted while the other half camp the map-long supply chain your reinforcements are forced to travel. These points are moot if the engagement is happening at your base, as it has no supply lines and your force is always guarding your strategic assets. If your Marine team is spending most of their fights in their base, though, they've already lost.
My advice, stick to servers with 20 players or less. Its more balanced and the performance will be smoother.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pug = pick up game. We're talking about exclusively 6v6 games here. Pug is basically ametuer level competitive play.
Oh wait, I read the title as "Pub".
Can't comment on what's happening in pugs, but this strategy still seems dangerous. Especially if your opponent is implied to be tactically competent.
Can't comment on what's happening in pugs, but this strategy still seems dangerous. Especially if your opponent is implied to be tactically competent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, there's a logic behind it as well though. As you pointed out, the supply lines are a big concern, I think many teams may not have the RTS fluency to exploit that weakness fully yet. It feels like a strong new strategy that hasn't had counters worked out for it yet. That doesn't imply counters do not exist.
I find the whole thing pretty exciting though.
little more respect for the 2nd cc rush. please!
Personally i think 3 cc's is better because then the aliens will be confused.
<a href="http://www.ensl.org/" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/</a>
usually most of the evening / night pickups are NA.
as far as the strategy itself... I don't feel like mines are sufficient enough to hold off a competent team. they're definitely strong, borderline overpowered, but they are not a replacement for phase gates.
Yeah it's a typo. . . I can't exactly change the title of a thread once it's made though unless I'm not seeing something
But the core is still there. . .
In a 12on12 marine upgrades dominate because you're giving them to so many people
Mines also become insane because if each marine drops a stack <i>(commander included)</i> you suddenly have 36 mines on the field
If even a 3rd of those are in good locations that only skulks travel, like vents, then they persist even after the enemy gets advanced lifeforms
Mines are also the most effective against shade hive because aliens can't outrun the explosion as well, shrug it off, or regenerate if they live
The only downside is that aliens might slow way down and avoid hallway placements much easier
Seriously. And they don't even have to kill your CC to cost you the match; they can just keep ambushing your troops as you try to reinforce until you're stuck holding your close 3 harvesters, at which point aliens eat the map and crap Oni.
Mod that ######. Now.
It's kind of a mixed bag right now. . .
Some people like it, but others think it's junk; others still just aren't taking it seriously
What is there to gain from over hyping someone else's strat?
I feel like the game is finally at a point where we can talk about the meta because the game has been balanced to the bare minimal to express is
Still others say that the strats are still linear and that fast PG is all there is
People are smart enough with bilebomb now that sentries are no longer viable en mass
Once mid game comes you might as well sell all of them and try to rush exo
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Let me get that for you.
I think someone ninja switched it to Pug and you changed it to Pub :P
<!--quoteo(post=2038492:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:18 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 1 2012, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think, right now, in all cases the Aliens objective should be forcing the late game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do you think this is the case? I have always felt that it's the opposite due to the lack of scaling on the Alien side. I've had enough comebacks from w3/a3 to the point where we are always trying to drag out games if we are losing as marines.
I disagree. Obviously obs would need to be added back in, but the main savings is in phase gates, which cost 45 to field 2 (with the upgrade). Fundimentally this is a strong forward positional push, Shade hive should be the weakest against this, because shade hive is best with a big elongated front line with lots of hot spots, and this strategy will mostly focus on one hot spot.
Yeah, and if you add in PGs for just a small amount of money, you remove the weaknesses vs the traditional strat completely! You might lose some savings, but you're much more secure.
You can't say "this build is good because you can change a few things about it to make it better". You're no longer discussing the build, you're discussing a new one you made up based off of the build in question. Saying "obviously obs would need to be added back in" completely misses the point of "this build is easily countered by shade hive". There are theoretical adjustments you can make to any build to make up for any counter. This thread is about this build here. It skimps 15 res on a basic observatory and causes massive tactical vulnerabilities.
Because onos are silly. If you can drag the game out long enough to establish a significant onos force you can almost always win. For the record, I don't mean "push to the late game" as "drop 30 whips in the first hive and sit on your thumbs"
You need to keep the marine pushs back and be doing nearly constant damage to the back of the marine map to force as equality as possible in the late game resource counts. Aliens get more cost effective everywhere on the map except where the marine team is a giant bunch as soon as the onos comes out. I feel like aliens have a stronger postition when it comes to base trade scenarios. They tend to not lose as much investment in the loss of a hive.
Of course you can.
IF AND ONLY IF they get shades do you TRANSITION to obs. There is no such thing as a flawless strategy that works regardless of what your opponent is doing.