<!--quoteo(post=2038709:date=Dec 2 2012, 10:35 AM:name=pendelum5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pendelum5 @ Dec 2 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easily countered by Shade Hive first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not "countered" by Shade Hive first in particular because:
1) Forgoing obs doesn't mean you can never build one. Shade first means you're not going to have either carapace or celerity which means you're ###### yourself for good.
2) Obs comes around after you'd have your hive upgraded anyway. Are you going to hang around the marine base for several minutes waiting to see if they build an obs before you upgrade your hive?
Again this is a wonderful case of squid talking about strats he uses on stacked teams on pubs. If you don't have an obs like you've suggested a decent alien team will send in 3 good skulks and kill the power and there will be no beacon to save it. Pretty sure everyone has seen where marines are all out of base and the comm has to beacon to save the base or he doesn't and you lose.
Seriously though you have to stop with these pointless threads, I've been on stacked teams where we rushed xenocide and still won. There are many ways to win, regardless of what tech paths you choose, as long as your team is proportionally better than the other.
Yes god forbid he tries breaking the mold or trying interesting strats and then talking about it on the forum. What is he thinking. He should just complain all the time like everyone else.
And he is specifically not talking about PUB games or did you not read the thread just the title before you posted.
Yes. this build, like every other, has weaknesses. A commander has to be flexible, if his people are getting devoured and he his losing he might go phase instead of arms labs he should be responding to the match. These builds aren't locked in from the time the round starts.
I agree that it is VERY unwise to not have an obs due to the lack of a Beacon.
But consider this: rushing a second CC with as many IPs as you can on the other side of the map creates a situation where you have spawns happening from two fronts and not just a single one. While the supply chain is less dense, it is also shorter. The major advantage of the PGs are the reduction of transit time they allow. This gives a more limited reduction of transit time, but a more robust source of resupply to the front.
With Tram as an example: if a comm rushes from Shipping into Repair and sets up a PG, then you are still dealing with spawning on 1 / 2 ips in shipping, and then transitioning to Repair to be "At the Front." If instead the comm rushes from Shipping into Repair and sets up a CC with an IP, then the spawn traffic is split between two locations, but there is now twice the spawn rate from the initial starting state.
So, in the first case, the marines spend:
OBs - 15 Tres / 15 sec Phase Tech - 15 Tres / 45 sec 2 Phase Gates - 30 Tres / 12 sec [Concurrent building]
60 Tres / 72 Sec
While in the second case the marines spend:
CC - 15 Tres / 15 sec IP - 10 Tres / 7 sec
25 Tres / 22 sec
So there is a real advantage to having an expansion base early, in a strict Spawn supply / area of control / Cost of Time and Money kind of way.
If you want to throw some obs in there, that only adds 15 / 15 to the mix for a bit of safety coverage.
Let the opinions fly!
[All numbers were pulled from the wiki at the time of this posting.] <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Frontiersmen#Structures" target="_blank">Wiki entry for Structures</a>
This will never fly in comp games and its only a matter of time till pub aliens get their ###### together and learn to rush the base with less mines. Unless marine team spent all their res on mines, in which case they are screwed when lerks come out.
<!--quoteo(post=2038580:date=Dec 1 2012, 07:54 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Dec 1 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No these threads are great everything should just keep getting nerfed until the aliens are gumming marines to death 1 hp at a time, while the marines defend themselves with wiffleball bats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess as long as we're throwing out test results I've crushed 2 games in a row using it Was also deeply unimpressed with the team game 2 before someone cries stacked
Game 1 was under 10 minutes like clockwork
---
<u><b>Locklear:</b></u>
Paying +2 res for an early obs plus a slightly longer build time is hardly worth <strike>crying</strike> whining about
I guess as long as we're throwing out test results I've crushed 2 games in a row using it Was also deeply unimpressed with the team game 2 before someone cries stacked
Game 1 was under 10 minutes like clockwork<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its highly unlikely that you could say you won simply because you didn't drop an observatory. Maybe it helped, maybe it didn't, but it isn't the sole reason for the victory.
If you send marines out, which you should, and aliens get into your spawn and you have no observatory, the one and only reason you lose is because you can't beacon.
I call that a little bit of something for a whole lot of nothing.
It looks like a half decent strategy but there is a lot that could go wrong.
Personally as a commander I would never go this route. I’ve had too much success getting phase gates up quickly and holding key areas with them.
I find getting two arms labs too be a waste since even with only a half-decent team of marines weapons upgrades should be the main focus, armor can come later if you are doing well enough for it. Anyway that’s what’s fun about the game, there are many ways to win.
Hey! I played with you and Injured yesterday, he had a consistently stacked team though, a pubstomp. He had quite the ego to boot, screaming at one point in post game voice to someone "I have top commander ranking on ns2stats website you noob" and something about being in beta. He spent so much time talking about his score, that I was wondering if he had double bound his push-to-talk in teamspeak on the same key having a conversation with you about his score or was he just talking to himself the whole time?
That strategy works as well as it does because of skulk inability to defuse or sneak past mines in plain sight, making it harder to backdoor. I don't think it would hold up in competitive, or if the game were finished.
<!--quoteo(post=2038910:date=Dec 2 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Dec 2 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But gaiz building an Observatory first every game is bad (rofl) so let's build an Armory first every game instead! (rofl)
The fact that you have to spend 25Tres at the start to even get an Observatory is retarded. But that's just my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You actually have to spend only 17 t.res to get an obs.
Recycle the armory when the obs is built and PG research is going. That's what I do most of the time :-) .
<!--quoteo(post=2038957:date=Dec 3 2012, 12:34 AM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Dec 3 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>Imbalanxd:</b></u> The res that is saved goes to other things and effect the game immediately<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like that second comm chair and those decentralized IPs? I'm not buying it, this strat is a gimmick.
<!--quoteo(post=2039077:date=Dec 2 2012, 09:19 PM:name=Pikachu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pikachu @ Dec 2 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey! I played with you and Injured yesterday, he had a consistently stacked team though, a pubstomp. He had quite the ego to boot, screaming at one point in post game voice to someone "I have top commander ranking on ns2stats website you noob" and something about being in beta. He spent so much time talking about his score, that I was wondering if he had double bound his push-to-talk in teamspeak on the same key having a conversation with you about his score or was he just talking to himself the whole time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I want to believe this is true but I can't allow my faith in humanity to fall that far
This is a public forum, MaxSquid has as much say as anyone, plus if he has l33t friends, more the boo to you.
I *adore* his com revelations. Jump in the chair more often (and stay there scaredy cats, sans getting kicked. ^ :() if you really want to understand the insights these posts bring.
I think we need an initial arms lab vs phase thread, including armoury resell, before we really get into double arms lab.
Also, to alleviate flame, map specifications might be of value.
I'd love to play this out as a soldier. Early mines could definitely help with early rushes. Skulks have to deal with mines and with the fact that marines they take out are spawning soon.
This build isn't very good and relies on the other team being very bad. No strategy should be used with that premise.
Also, I don't understand the second arms lab. If you can afford a second arms lab and the research, then you're likely not using your resources efficiently or the other team is terrible. I found the game that you mention and I looks like the marine team went up to 8 extractors and only lost 1 in the entire 8 minute match. Meanwhile, the aliens didn't get a single upgrade. From the looks of it, that game would have been won with any strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=2038838:date=Dec 3 2012, 04:21 AM:name=Tinker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tinker @ Dec 3 2012, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes god forbid he tries breaking the mold or trying interesting strats and then talking about it on the forum. What is he thinking. He should just complain all the time like everyone else.
And he is specifically not talking about PUB games or did you not read the thread just the title before you posted.
Yes. this build, like every other, has weaknesses. A commander has to be flexible, if his people are getting devoured and he his losing he might go phase instead of arms labs he should be responding to the match. These builds aren't locked in from the time the round starts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love seeing interesting strats.
However, 2 cc rush is anything but interesting and relies too much on lucky IP spawning and marine pressure to hold bases.
It may initially be 15tres cheaper than obs, pg research, and 2 phasegates (cc+2ip at 45, pg techs at 60), but it gets you nowhere in tech, and you will end up having to research phasegates down the line anyway. Not to mention this puts you way behind in terms of res momentum - managing res flow is just as important as managing costs. Would i prefer to split a 60 tres investment into something that completes in 15tres packages over time and gives me tres budget to spend on RT's and medpacks, or one big 45tres dump that leaves room for only 1, 2 RT's for the next 2 minutes (if you skip the armoury).
Even if it works, all this strat really accomplishes is turtling and is a big contributor to stale 40+ minute games, which is why it gets the deserved ammount of hate it has been getting. Commanders who go this route value pg tech less than otherwise, because the additional benefit of having it over their 2 CC setup is smaller. You thus get less aggression, less medpacking and support, more upgrade turtling, more stale predictable gameplay, and pretty much a less fun game for everyone.
Everytime I see another one of your threads it makes me want to die inside... And a 30 second advert infront of a video I dont really even want to watch?
Also, IPs work on a first built first used premise... As-long as your marine weren't idiots and had ~3 seconds between each death it would mean EVERYONE spawned at one of your techpoints leaving the other completely empty. Further more even if you were able to get a perfect 50-50 split between tech points, if the aliens rushed either one without an obs or a pg you would be unable to move to defend it...
Let me guess, your answer to this is: "Turrets bro."
<!--quoteo(post=2039108:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:16 AM:name=Virsoul)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Virsoul @ Dec 3 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This build isn't very good and relies on the other team being very bad. No strategy should be used with that premise.
Also, I don't understand the second arms lab. If you can afford a second arms lab and the research, then you're likely not using your resources efficiently or the other team is terrible. I found the game that you mention and I looks like the marine team went up to 8 extractors and only lost 1 in the entire 8 minute match. Meanwhile, the aliens didn't get a single upgrade. From the looks of it, that game would have been won with any strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can generally afford to support 2 AL until midway through the second teir of upgrades. If my marine team has the advantage I'll often go 2 AL, and then recycle one just before tier 3 upgrades come into effect. You use 3 tres, but who cares, your L2 second upgrade comes 2 minutes early.
<!--quoteo(post=2039129:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:13 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Dec 3 2012, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everytime I see another one of your threads it makes me want to die inside... And a 30 second advert infront of a video I dont really even want to watch?
Also, IPs work on a first built first used premise... As-long as your marine weren't idiots and had ~3 seconds between each death it would mean EVERYONE spawned at one of your techpoints leaving the other completely empty. Further more even if you were able to get a perfect 50-50 split between tech points, if the aliens rushed either one without an obs or a pg you would be unable to move to defend it...
Let me guess, your answer to this is: "Turrets bro."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do know you can designate which base your marines spawn at by selecting the IPs and using Rally, right?
As far as this build goes, I highly doubt it's dominating games. At the very least, it sure wouldn't work in a server with me. I'd munch all of your marines and your comm station while all of your men are rushing off to secure that second base. Om nom nom.
And I can almost always get more pub players to join me with my jovial attitude. (Which quickly turns sour when I get angry and get competitive. Then I start playing a lot less casually and start turning into a elitist ######. Had to leave a server because I don't want to be that person anymore.)
My favorite part was the "anti rush" mines. Sorry but again it's only a group of noobs that don't watch for mines, that is why this is a stacked team strategy.
Lets say I agree with you then what is the marine strategy to use when the alien team is stacked? Sentries? Health Spam? Tell people to camp vents?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same strategy aliens can use when the marine team is stacked: die quickly and call for random.
Comments
It's not "countered" by Shade Hive first in particular because:
1) Forgoing obs doesn't mean you can never build one. Shade first means you're not going to have either carapace or celerity which means you're ###### yourself for good.
2) Obs comes around after you'd have your hive upgraded anyway. Are you going to hang around the marine base for several minutes waiting to see if they build an obs before you upgrade your hive?
1. Get camo. (you must do this on pubs as it guarantees a win in 80%+ of the games)
2. Rush chair/power (repeatedly).
3. ???
4. Profit!
But I guess you played against people who were asleep or more than half the team was afk?
Seriously though you have to stop with these pointless threads, I've been on stacked teams where we rushed xenocide and still won. There are many ways to win, regardless of what tech paths you choose, as long as your team is proportionally better than the other.
And he is specifically not talking about PUB games or did you not read the thread just the title before you posted.
Yes. this build, like every other, has weaknesses. A commander has to be flexible, if his people are getting devoured and he his losing he might go phase instead of arms labs he should be responding to the match. These builds aren't locked in from the time the round starts.
I agree that it is VERY unwise to not have an obs due to the lack of a Beacon.
But consider this: rushing a second CC with as many IPs as you can on the other side of the map creates a situation where you have spawns happening from two fronts and not just a single one. While the supply chain is less dense, it is also shorter. The major advantage of the PGs are the reduction of transit time they allow. This gives a more limited reduction of transit time, but a more robust source of resupply to the front.
With Tram as an example: if a comm rushes from Shipping into Repair and sets up a PG, then you are still dealing with spawning on 1 / 2 ips in shipping, and then transitioning to Repair to be "At the Front." If instead the comm rushes from Shipping into Repair and sets up a CC with an IP, then the spawn traffic is split between two locations, but there is now twice the spawn rate from the initial starting state.
So, in the first case, the marines spend:
OBs - 15 Tres / 15 sec
Phase Tech - 15 Tres / 45 sec
2 Phase Gates - 30 Tres / 12 sec [Concurrent building]
60 Tres / 72 Sec
While in the second case the marines spend:
CC - 15 Tres / 15 sec
IP - 10 Tres / 7 sec
25 Tres / 22 sec
So there is a real advantage to having an expansion base early, in a strict Spawn supply / area of control / Cost of Time and Money kind of way.
If you want to throw some obs in there, that only adds 15 / 15 to the mix for a bit of safety coverage.
Let the opinions fly!
[All numbers were pulled from the wiki at the time of this posting.]
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Frontiersmen#Structures" target="_blank">Wiki entry for Structures</a>
Two skulks got into our base and we lost instantly.
The fact that you have to spend 25Tres at the start to even get an Observatory is retarded.
But that's just my opinion.
Lol
8on8 server?
I guess as long as we're throwing out test results I've crushed 2 games in a row using it
Was also deeply unimpressed with the team game 2 before someone cries stacked
Game 1 was under 10 minutes like clockwork
---
<u><b>Locklear:</b></u>
Paying +2 res for an early obs plus a slightly longer build time is hardly worth <strike>crying</strike> whining about
-
8on8 server?
I guess as long as we're throwing out test results I've crushed 2 games in a row using it
Was also deeply unimpressed with the team game 2 before someone cries stacked
Game 1 was under 10 minutes like clockwork<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its highly unlikely that you could say you won simply because you didn't drop an observatory. Maybe it helped, maybe it didn't, but it isn't the sole reason for the victory.
If you send marines out, which you should, and aliens get into your spawn and you have no observatory, the one and only reason you lose is because you can't beacon.
I call that a little bit of something for a whole lot of nothing.
So lets say you do get rushed, why don't we say through middle on Tram where nobody on your team went
The rush needs to come down within the first minute or two of the game or you will have a second base
Mines can come down almost immediately after the armory goes up and then the commander can jump out and put down the anti rush mines
I think you're looking at the strat way too narrowly
The res that is saved goes to other things and effect the game immediately
Right now with a heavy absent of early carapace marines a basically dictated to go fast mines and it's working very well
-
Personally as a commander I would never go this route. I’ve had too much success getting phase gates up quickly and holding key areas with them.
I find getting two arms labs too be a waste since even with only a half-decent team of marines weapons upgrades should be the main focus, armor can come later if you are doing well enough for it.
Anyway that’s what’s fun about the game, there are many ways to win.
That strategy works as well as it does because of skulk inability to defuse or sneak past mines in plain sight, making it harder to backdoor. I don't think it would hold up in competitive, or if the game were finished.
The fact that you have to spend 25Tres at the start to even get an Observatory is retarded.
But that's just my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You actually have to spend only 17 t.res to get an obs.
Recycle the armory when the obs is built and PG research is going. That's what I do most of the time :-) .
The res that is saved goes to other things and effect the game immediately<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like that second comm chair and those decentralized IPs?
I'm not buying it, this strat is a gimmick.
I want to believe this is true but I can't allow my faith in humanity to fall that far
I *adore* his com revelations. Jump in the chair more often (and stay there scaredy cats, sans getting kicked. ^ :() if you really want to understand the insights these posts bring.
I think we need an initial arms lab vs phase thread, including armoury resell, before we really get into double arms lab.
Also, to alleviate flame, map specifications might be of value.
Also, I don't understand the second arms lab. If you can afford a second arms lab and the research, then you're likely not using your resources efficiently or the other team is terrible. I found the game that you mention and I looks like the marine team went up to 8 extractors and only lost 1 in the entire 8 minute match. Meanwhile, the aliens didn't get a single upgrade. From the looks of it, that game would have been won with any strategy.
And he is specifically not talking about PUB games or did you not read the thread just the title before you posted.
Yes. this build, like every other, has weaknesses. A commander has to be flexible, if his people are getting devoured and he his losing he might go phase instead of arms labs he should be responding to the match. These builds aren't locked in from the time the round starts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love seeing interesting strats.
However, 2 cc rush is anything but interesting and relies too much on lucky IP spawning and marine pressure to hold bases.
It may initially be 15tres cheaper than obs, pg research, and 2 phasegates (cc+2ip at 45, pg techs at 60), but it gets you nowhere in tech, and you will end up having to research phasegates down the line anyway. Not to mention this puts you way behind in terms of res momentum - managing res flow is just as important as managing costs. Would i prefer to split a 60 tres investment into something that completes in 15tres packages over time and gives me tres budget to spend on RT's and medpacks, or one big 45tres dump that leaves room for only 1, 2 RT's for the next 2 minutes (if you skip the armoury).
Even if it works, all this strat really accomplishes is turtling and is a big contributor to stale 40+ minute games, which is why it gets the deserved ammount of hate it has been getting. Commanders who go this route value pg tech less than otherwise, because the additional benefit of having it over their 2 CC setup is smaller. You thus get less aggression, less medpacking and support, more upgrade turtling, more stale predictable gameplay, and pretty much a less fun game for everyone.
And a 30 second advert infront of a video I dont really even want to watch?
Also, IPs work on a first built first used premise...
As-long as your marine weren't idiots and had ~3 seconds between each death it would mean EVERYONE spawned
at one of your techpoints leaving the other completely empty.
Further more even if you were able to get a perfect 50-50 split between tech points, if the aliens rushed either one without an obs or a pg you would be unable to move to defend it...
Let me guess, your answer to this is: "Turrets bro."
Also, I don't understand the second arms lab. If you can afford a second arms lab and the research, then you're likely not using your resources efficiently or the other team is terrible. I found the game that you mention and I looks like the marine team went up to 8 extractors and only lost 1 in the entire 8 minute match. Meanwhile, the aliens didn't get a single upgrade. From the looks of it, that game would have been won with any strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can generally afford to support 2 AL until midway through the second teir of upgrades. If my marine team has the advantage I'll often go 2 AL, and then recycle one just before tier 3 upgrades come into effect. You use 3 tres, but who cares, your L2 second upgrade comes 2 minutes early.
And a 30 second advert infront of a video I dont really even want to watch?
Also, IPs work on a first built first used premise...
As-long as your marine weren't idiots and had ~3 seconds between each death it would mean EVERYONE spawned
at one of your techpoints leaving the other completely empty.
Further more even if you were able to get a perfect 50-50 split between tech points, if the aliens rushed either one without an obs or a pg you would be unable to move to defend it...
Let me guess, your answer to this is: "Turrets bro."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do know you can designate which base your marines spawn at by selecting the IPs and using Rally, right?
As far as this build goes, I highly doubt it's dominating games. At the very least, it sure wouldn't work in a server with me. I'd munch all of your marines and your comm station while all of your men are rushing off to secure that second base. Om nom nom.
And I can almost always get more pub players to join me with my jovial attitude. (Which quickly turns sour when I get angry and get competitive. Then I start playing a lot less casually and start turning into a elitist ######. Had to leave a server because I don't want to be that person anymore.)
Lets say I agree with you then what is the marine strategy to use when the alien team is stacked? Sentries? Health Spam? Tell people to camp vents?
Lets say I agree with you then what is the marine strategy to use when the alien team is stacked? Sentries? Health Spam? Tell people to camp vents?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same strategy aliens can use when the marine team is stacked: die quickly and call for random.