this is the type of layout I was thinking of <img src="http://i.imgur.com/rNSiw.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> have it somewhat symmetrical then start adding/deleting to make sure its fair for both sides while still keep both ways a viable option and not everyone going one way because its the easiest or shortest. tbh I didnt give it alot of thinking it just came to me during today's play and someone might come up with something faulty with this design, anyway if you do decide to give this layout a go maybe make another version of the map instead of screwing the existing one so people can still run the current version if they choose to do so. waiting for your thoughts on this.
Do you mean making a whole second entrance on the other side of the pyramid?
I could do that, i was planning to add a small temple for the stargate but this was partly to help aliens with jetpacks, now that aliens seem to have an advantage im unsure, i think perhaps putting the rings back in the pyramid would help a lot for marines and just might be enough to sort balance, i died every time i was exo before i even got to where the rings used to be so it should help.
Here's how the layout is currently and the time it takes for a walking marine to reach the hive, aliens are to up to ten seconds quicker than marines but they seem to have the same trouble taking out the com, summitcombat takes about 30 seconds as well.
yeah by that layout I ment to have front and back door ( each with its own SG ) to each base, and at the same time get rid of the complexity on the marine side I mean look at how both sides look in the picture there are alot of rooms and vents that aren't being used and often if I chase a skulk or a lerk I find myself lost for couple of seconds untill I find my way back to the SG room, while alien side is pretty much self explained and simple yet have enough cover and routes ( I love the underground tunnels on the alien side ) as for the "ring" gates the only time Ive seen them used is to go there to heal or reload/gain back energi and attack again, I have yet to see anyone use it to go all the way and flank.
IMO here are two scenarios for marine start and the "problem" rooms are marked in red, if not used or used just to go thru and serves no other purpose than to make it longer to get to the SG these are no real areas where combat happens. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/YiBMB.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I know what you mean about too many corridors which is why i blocked off the section in red last update, i also moved server room closer and removed some unnecessary corridor, the map has played better since but i think if i make the change in green so you can pass through commissary to either the silo or the gate room it will give it some purpose again, yellow is the top floor, i also think i might put the rings back inside the pyramid to give marines a chance to take out the hive?
I know many go straight to the stargate but players do choose the rings now and then, soon it will make even more sense to use rings when they're so close to the hive and the stargate has longer travel time.
Hopefully this map gets a fundamental reworking because it's about the most alien biased map ever. The alien side of the map is a death pit for the marines.
The portals can be camped with hydras and clogs right from the start, and once two aliens go lerk, chances of a marine victory drop terribly due to spikes from multiple directions. Once fades come into the picture, it's a done deal. Anyone going fade on this map can end up with a 3 to 1 k/d even if they were something like 3 to 10 beforehand. They almost never die on the alien side or silo. Going into the halls or marine spawn is the only significant risk they take.
Marines don't live long enough to reach the tunnels and they're sure not going to access the hive from the front entrance often. What few exos that are in the game, usually at 7 minutes left, are destroyed via camping the portals. Due to them being uncontrollable for a few moments after purchase, and their slow speed, they take much longer to reach the portal than an onos. Not to mention that they're not nearly as powerful as a typical onos, but that's a balance issue beyond your control. Still, it helps make this map unpleasant to play on as a marine and should be accounted for in the map design.
If or when you work on this map, keep in mind that the marines have to kill the hive within a time limit and that's about impossible to do in this map as things stand.
The map still has it's issues but it has already gone through a lot of changes to improve balance and things are much better believe it or not, originally it was marines who had the advantage now aliens have a slight advantage but remember ns2 is deliberately asymmetrical in nature and combat is no different, marines currently have to push to win no matter how good they are, this goes for any map you play, i've already asked the guys behind the combat mod if theres anything they can do, i've never understood why aliens should win by default but it's not something i can change so hopefully it improves.
The way it works now is marines often overrun alien side for the first five to ten minutes, then its a bit of back and forth, then aliens start to overrun the sgc, however if marines work together and travel via rings they can take out the hive quite well, it can be done, i've played many games where marines have won near the end once the team worked together, like any map it requires team work to achieve.
I will keep making improvements like adding unbuildable areas around the gate and rings soon, possibly a structure for the alien gate with another entrance to the pyramid.
Edit: Had a couple more games today, marines won one and aliens the other but plenty of marines hit the hive so it could have gone either way, i still see the odd person saying something negative but i honestly think it's a bit over exaggerated at this point, i've just been looking at ns2stats and compare the co maps if you don't believe me, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/28" target="_blank">stargate</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/12" target="_blank">faceoff</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/9" target="_blank">chutout</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/10" target="_blank">core</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/8" target="_blank">summitcombat</a>... sure it's not perfect but it should improve, i might move aliens rings back into pyramid and see how that affects things.
Ok i've made another fairly decent update to the layout and have added a third teleporter, it's using the phasegate model and ideally id like to make it for marines only but that can't be set at the moment, i've also now added some arrows to the minimap so players know where where they're going, hopefully this finally sorts balance but ill keep an eye on ns2stats and tweak things as need be.
Btw., you should change the delay from the teleporters inside every "wormhole" so you will not stuck at the end. (only the teleport into wormhole teleporter, not the exit)
The brief pause at the end is kind of deliberate, without it you would fly out of the gate at the same speed as the push trigger, it still happens if players get stuck, hopefully we'll get a NonStick group at some point.
Edit: I just watched the new NS2HD videos today, it was fun to see Huge and you guys play, thanks Jibrail for showing off stargate, hopefully the balance is better now, although i think i might move the alien rings outside again as it seems like it could be a little too easy for marines to go as a group and surprise attack the hive, ill keep an eye on ns2stats and see how it goes.
Wow, this came out as a pretty nice map from an aesthetic standpoint! Haven't played it enough to judge gameplay yet, but I love the ready room and map.
Some thoughts: - You should keep player velocity transferring through the Stargate for lore reasons, unless it becomes a problem for gameplay.
- The PG is a bit out of place. An Asgard beam platform could be used as an alternative, but it would be of an unexpected sight in slugfest between the SGC and a Goa'uld pyramid. Not sure what the best solution would be for this.
- You know you want to put in some sort of dialing system in for the gate at some point in the future. Maybe have the gate start dormant, with the first player to reach the DHD or control room starting the process? Perhaps that would translate into tedious gameplay, but you can't deny how awesome the idea is.
I must say that I like the recent changes. The visual style of the Alien pyramid is really nice and I really digg those gold and red custom textures :)
I have only one concern - the marine side - the base, is too complicated and I am getting lost in it everytime. From the NS2HD video is also notable that others are getting lost there too. It has 3 floors!. Did you consider some kind of simplification. Just compare it to the Alien side, which is really simple and straightforward. I think, generaly shrinking and siplifying the SG base could do the job.
But overall, this map is the most fun combat map so far :)
<!--quoteo(post=2043130:date=Dec 10 2012, 03:24 PM:name=JimWest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JimWest @ Dec 10 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I need to create a triggerable death/hurt trigger that people can't camp in front of the gate and wait :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Almost like some sort of kawoosh...
<!--quoteo(post=2043066:date=Dec 10 2012, 07:18 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Dec 10 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, this came out as a pretty nice map from an aesthetic standpoint! Haven't played it enough to judge gameplay yet, but I love the ready room and map.
Some thoughts: - You should keep player velocity transferring through the Stargate for lore reasons, unless it becomes a problem for gameplay.
- The PG is a bit out of place. An Asgard beam platform could be used as an alternative, but it would be of an unexpected sight in slugfest between the SGC and a Goa'uld pyramid. Not sure what the best solution would be for this.
- You know you want to put in some sort of dialing system in for the gate at some point in the future. Maybe have the gate start dormant, with the first player to reach the DHD or control room starting the process? Perhaps that would translate into tedious gameplay, but you can't deny how awesome the idea is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, im still working on balance, that seems the hardest part.
The trouble with Stargate velocity is that it will always be an issue because the push has to be set quite fast to work.
Wasn't the asgard tech more like startrek style transporters? I have no idea how i would do that, random teleport within a certain area could be fun though...
This would actually be kind of cool to do at the start of the game, i suspect it could be done with some clever entity setup and cinematic control, would probably need a proper model for the stargate as well, maybe one day...
<!--quoteo(post=2043122:date=Dec 10 2012, 08:55 PM:name=Rudy.cz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rudy.cz @ Dec 10 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must say that I like the recent changes. The visual style of the Alien pyramid is really nice and I really digg those gold and red custom textures :)
I have only one concern - the marine side - the base, is too complicated and I am getting lost in it everytime. From the NS2HD video is also notable that others are getting lost there too. It has 3 floors!. Did you consider some kind of simplification. Just compare it to the Alien side, which is really simple and straightforward. I think, generaly shrinking and siplifying the SG base could do the job.
But overall, this map is the most fun combat map so far :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, i've just improved the textures, though i was trying to give the glass a shiny look but spec doesn't seem to work the same when dealing with transparency, unless im doing something wrong i can't make the shine appear flat all over the surface, instead it acts only on the brighter parts, maybe someone else knows?
I agree there's a bit much going on with the layout but without removing large sections or seriously changing the layout to be more linear im not sure i can do much about it now, the back section has already been closed off, though i will continue to improve things so anything is possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2043533:date=Dec 11 2012, 06:16 AM:name=Magneto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Magneto @ Dec 11 2012, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wasn't the asgard tech more like startrek style transporters? I have no idea how i would do that, random teleport within a certain area could be fun though...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Asgard_transporter" target="_blank">http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Asgard_transporter</a> You could just drop the teleport statue where the PGs are now and mark out a bit of area on the ground in front of it where the effect is active; gameplay-wise, it would be a lot like the ring platforms.
Just wanted to make a quick update to the thread as it's been a while, the map has improved quite a lot since Christmas and can now even be played as a small standard ns2 map with the extra tech points added, although who knows how well that will play, at least it's there for any future mods that may need them.
It's a new upload as i had workshop issues and couldn't update, hopefully it will be back on combat servers again soon.
Comments
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/rNSiw.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
have it somewhat symmetrical then start adding/deleting to make sure its fair for both sides while still keep both ways a viable option and not everyone going one way because its the easiest or shortest.
tbh I didnt give it alot of thinking it just came to me during today's play and someone might come up with something faulty with this design, anyway if you do decide to give this layout a go maybe make another version of the map instead of screwing the existing one so people can still run the current version if they choose to do so.
waiting for your thoughts on this.
I could do that, i was planning to add a small temple for the stargate but this was partly to help aliens with jetpacks, now that aliens seem to have an advantage im unsure, i think perhaps putting the rings back in the pyramid would help a lot for marines and just might be enough to sort balance, i died every time i was exo before i even got to where the rings used to be so it should help.
Here's how the layout is currently and the time it takes for a walking marine to reach the hive, aliens are to up to ten seconds quicker than marines but they seem to have the same trouble taking out the com, summitcombat takes about 30 seconds as well.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Rnmrj.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
IMO here are two scenarios for marine start and the "problem" rooms are marked in red, if not used or used just to go thru and serves no other purpose than to make it longer to get to the SG these are no real areas where combat happens.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/YiBMB.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I know many go straight to the stargate but players do choose the rings now and then, soon it will make even more sense to use rings when they're so close to the hive and the stargate has longer travel time.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/vEawi.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The portals can be camped with hydras and clogs right from the start, and once two aliens go lerk, chances of a marine victory drop terribly due to spikes from multiple directions. Once fades come into the picture, it's a done deal. Anyone going fade on this map can end up with a 3 to 1 k/d even if they were something like 3 to 10 beforehand. They almost never die on the alien side or silo. Going into the halls or marine spawn is the only significant risk they take.
Marines don't live long enough to reach the tunnels and they're sure not going to access the hive from the front entrance often. What few exos that are in the game, usually at 7 minutes left, are destroyed via camping the portals. Due to them being uncontrollable for a few moments after purchase, and their slow speed, they take much longer to reach the portal than an onos. Not to mention that they're not nearly as powerful as a typical onos, but that's a balance issue beyond your control. Still, it helps make this map unpleasant to play on as a marine and should be accounted for in the map design.
If or when you work on this map, keep in mind that the marines have to kill the hive within a time limit and that's about impossible to do in this map as things stand.
The way it works now is marines often overrun alien side for the first five to ten minutes, then its a bit of back and forth, then aliens start to overrun the sgc, however if marines work together and travel via rings they can take out the hive quite well, it can be done, i've played many games where marines have won near the end once the team worked together, like any map it requires team work to achieve.
I will keep making improvements like adding unbuildable areas around the gate and rings soon, possibly a structure for the alien gate with another entrance to the pyramid.
Edit: Had a couple more games today, marines won one and aliens the other but plenty of marines hit the hive so it could have gone either way, i still see the odd person saying something negative but i honestly think it's a bit over exaggerated at this point, i've just been looking at ns2stats and compare the co maps if you don't believe me, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/28" target="_blank">stargate</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/12" target="_blank">faceoff</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/9" target="_blank">chutout</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/10" target="_blank">core</a>, <a href="http://ns2stats.org/map/map/8" target="_blank">summitcombat</a>... sure it's not perfect but it should improve, i might move aliens rings back into pyramid and see how that affects things.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/XVlBi.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(only the teleport into wormhole teleporter, not the exit)
Edit: I just watched the new NS2HD videos today, it was fun to see Huge and you guys play, thanks Jibrail for showing off stargate, hopefully the balance is better now, although i think i might move the alien rings outside again as it seems like it could be a little too easy for marines to go as a group and surprise attack the hive, ill keep an eye on ns2stats and see how it goes.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/r3T4651Vox0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/r3T4651Vox0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
(should solve that problem?)
Some thoughts:
- You should keep player velocity transferring through the Stargate for lore reasons, unless it becomes a problem for gameplay.
- The PG is a bit out of place. An Asgard beam platform could be used as an alternative, but it would be of an unexpected sight in slugfest between the SGC and a Goa'uld pyramid. Not sure what the best solution would be for this.
- You know you want to put in some sort of dialing system in for the gate at some point in the future. Maybe have the gate start dormant, with the first player to reach the DHD or control room starting the process? Perhaps that would translate into tedious gameplay, but you can't deny how awesome the idea is.
I have only one concern - the marine side - the base, is too complicated and I am getting lost in it everytime. From the NS2HD video is also notable that others are getting lost there too. It has 3 floors!. Did you consider some kind of simplification. Just compare it to the Alien side, which is really simple and straightforward. I think, generaly shrinking and siplifying the SG base could do the job.
But overall, this map is the most fun combat map so far :)
Almost like some sort of kawoosh...
Some thoughts:
- You should keep player velocity transferring through the Stargate for lore reasons, unless it becomes a problem for gameplay.
- The PG is a bit out of place. An Asgard beam platform could be used as an alternative, but it would be of an unexpected sight in slugfest between the SGC and a Goa'uld pyramid. Not sure what the best solution would be for this.
- You know you want to put in some sort of dialing system in for the gate at some point in the future. Maybe have the gate start dormant, with the first player to reach the DHD or control room starting the process? Perhaps that would translate into tedious gameplay, but you can't deny how awesome the idea is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, im still working on balance, that seems the hardest part.
The trouble with Stargate velocity is that it will always be an issue because the push has to be set quite fast to work.
Wasn't the asgard tech more like startrek style transporters? I have no idea how i would do that, random teleport within a certain area could be fun though...
This would actually be kind of cool to do at the start of the game, i suspect it could be done with some clever entity setup and cinematic control, would probably need a proper model for the stargate as well, maybe one day...
<!--quoteo(post=2043122:date=Dec 10 2012, 08:55 PM:name=Rudy.cz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rudy.cz @ Dec 10 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must say that I like the recent changes. The visual style of the Alien pyramid is really nice and I really digg those gold and red custom textures :)
I have only one concern - the marine side - the base, is too complicated and I am getting lost in it everytime. From the NS2HD video is also notable that others are getting lost there too. It has 3 floors!. Did you consider some kind of simplification. Just compare it to the Alien side, which is really simple and straightforward. I think, generaly shrinking and siplifying the SG base could do the job.
But overall, this map is the most fun combat map so far :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, i've just improved the textures, though i was trying to give the glass a shiny look but spec doesn't seem to work the same when dealing with transparency, unless im doing something wrong i can't make the shine appear flat all over the surface, instead it acts only on the brighter parts, maybe someone else knows?
I agree there's a bit much going on with the layout but without removing large sections or seriously changing the layout to be more linear im not sure i can do much about it now, the back section has already been closed off, though i will continue to improve things so anything is possible.
<a href="http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Asgard_transporter" target="_blank">http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Asgard_transporter</a>
You could just drop the teleport statue where the PGs are now and mark out a bit of area on the ground in front of it where the effect is active; gameplay-wise, it would be a lot like the ring platforms.
It's a new upload as i had workshop issues and couldn't update, hopefully it will be back on combat servers again soon.