How could Refinery be balanced?
CrushaK
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
Currently Refinery has hit the mark of having roughly 75% of all matches on it won by aliens. And the map layout favours aliens a lot indeed. It takes a far more coordinated effort from the marine team to get a grip on the map compared to the easy start that aliens have.
So what could be changed according to your opinion to balance it out?
Some thought experiments from my side:
<b>Move the marine starting position from Flow Control to Smelting</b>
The marines have no close RTs in Flow Control and the longest possible path towards the alien base and their second Hive location (usually Turbine) to put much pressure on them. Lava Falls is also way closer to the alien spawn than to the marine one, making it easy for the khammander to get 2 extra RTs up without much intervention.
Smelting would allow to have a roughly equally long way to the Transit RT as from Flow Control but in addition grants them access to the Conduit RT.
Turbine would be closer to harass and they would still have access to Lava Falls from Conduit (though the wall there would no longer provide an efficient cover against incoming marines from that direction).
Flow Control would probably be the marine's second base of choice then, unless they want to set up in Turbine for added harassment on the alien's Containment Hive.
Likewise would aliens have an easier time to set up in Pipeworks.
No idea how this would really play out.
<b>Swap the team's starting positions, so aliens start in Flow Control and Marines in Containment</b>
Would probably need some additional adjustment for Lava Falls, so the central wall is on the other side of the RTs. This would actually make it harder for aliens to instantly get into Lava Falls.
Marines would easily get an RT in Chasm then and possibly set up in Turbine as well. Aliens would get the longer RT paths in the south of the map, though this would not stall their team as much as it does for the marines because the khammander can build stuff without needing his team to assist.
Alien start locations could probably even be randomized between Smelting and Flow Control.
I honestly have no idea how this change would play out in praxis.
<b>Change the map layout to make the path between Smelting and Flow Control shorter</b>
That extra arc in the map layout down there makes it a really long walk for marines through Transit and gives aliens way too much time to chew on an RT there before marines from either side can react. Cutting it a bit shorter would increase the marine starting chances quite a bit, I guess.
<b>Change RT locations</b>
The game seems to be in a kind of dilemma where it does not want to have more than 10 RTs in a map but still wants to make every room interesting enough to fight for it. But 10 RTs are not enough for all rooms in such a big map. Maybe it wouldn't be too much to add an 11th RT location somewhere in Exchange? Or to move one Lava Falls RT into Heatsink instead, to give aliens less of an RT advantage in one spot? Having the center of the map under control to get quickly from one side of the map to the other seems like enough of a reward already.
Thoughts? Other suggestions?
So what could be changed according to your opinion to balance it out?
Some thought experiments from my side:
<b>Move the marine starting position from Flow Control to Smelting</b>
The marines have no close RTs in Flow Control and the longest possible path towards the alien base and their second Hive location (usually Turbine) to put much pressure on them. Lava Falls is also way closer to the alien spawn than to the marine one, making it easy for the khammander to get 2 extra RTs up without much intervention.
Smelting would allow to have a roughly equally long way to the Transit RT as from Flow Control but in addition grants them access to the Conduit RT.
Turbine would be closer to harass and they would still have access to Lava Falls from Conduit (though the wall there would no longer provide an efficient cover against incoming marines from that direction).
Flow Control would probably be the marine's second base of choice then, unless they want to set up in Turbine for added harassment on the alien's Containment Hive.
Likewise would aliens have an easier time to set up in Pipeworks.
No idea how this would really play out.
<b>Swap the team's starting positions, so aliens start in Flow Control and Marines in Containment</b>
Would probably need some additional adjustment for Lava Falls, so the central wall is on the other side of the RTs. This would actually make it harder for aliens to instantly get into Lava Falls.
Marines would easily get an RT in Chasm then and possibly set up in Turbine as well. Aliens would get the longer RT paths in the south of the map, though this would not stall their team as much as it does for the marines because the khammander can build stuff without needing his team to assist.
Alien start locations could probably even be randomized between Smelting and Flow Control.
I honestly have no idea how this change would play out in praxis.
<b>Change the map layout to make the path between Smelting and Flow Control shorter</b>
That extra arc in the map layout down there makes it a really long walk for marines through Transit and gives aliens way too much time to chew on an RT there before marines from either side can react. Cutting it a bit shorter would increase the marine starting chances quite a bit, I guess.
<b>Change RT locations</b>
The game seems to be in a kind of dilemma where it does not want to have more than 10 RTs in a map but still wants to make every room interesting enough to fight for it. But 10 RTs are not enough for all rooms in such a big map. Maybe it wouldn't be too much to add an 11th RT location somewhere in Exchange? Or to move one Lava Falls RT into Heatsink instead, to give aliens less of an RT advantage in one spot? Having the center of the map under control to get quickly from one side of the map to the other seems like enough of a reward already.
Thoughts? Other suggestions?
Comments
Refinery has longer walks, but it also means that aliens need to go further too
The map requires different tactics
Played right aliens have a horrible time on the map due to the large open rooms
Some hallways are so large that you can shoot and hit stationary targets as marines that don't even appear on your screen
Aliens investigating the damaged buildings won't even know where it's coming from
The map also has very few routes making large marine pushes super easy
Jetpacks also dominate the map like nothing else
It's also the easiest map to get egg locked on because the large map makes it extremely difficult for aliens to cover their territory properly
When I command on the map I usually have to build drifters immediately and cyst to lava falls, but I usually can't drop it for a good 3 min because I need to know where the marines are first because it's such a risky drop
Aliens can Lerk on the map, but if marines have good aim they get dominated
Fades are horrible on Refinery and every room is a long hallway so Onos typically get slayed often without serious support
I'm staring right at the stats where aliens win 3/4ths of the time and I just don't see it
At least it's never this way on the servers I play on where a lot of regulars and competitive players congregate
I'll say it again. . .
The map plays differently; more skilled players know this and don't have a problem with refinery on either side
I'd leave it for now and give it another month for more changes to be made to the game in general instead of the map first
All in all, I think the map just needs to be re-worked in a number of areas. Many of the passageways on that map go under-utilized.
On the whole I think its fine as is but I would like to see flow control redone. Nothing about it is forgiving for the marines. It doesn't need to be a turtle fort like mineshaft-operations but the access to transit and falls approach is a mess. And the hallway IP and path up to pipeworks are full of little ambush niches
I can see containment bring just as rough but the majority of marine wins pressure chasm fast not heatsink.
The marines have no close RTs in Flow Control and the longest possible path towards the alien base and their second Hive location (usually Turbine) to put much pressure on them. Lava Falls is also way closer to the alien spawn than to the marine one, making it easy for the khammander to get 2 extra RTs up without much intervention.
Smelting would allow to have a roughly equally long way to the Transit RT as from Flow Control but in addition grants them access to the Conduit RT.
Turbine would be closer to harass and they would still have access to Lava Falls from Conduit (though the wall there would no longer provide an efficient cover against incoming marines from that direction).
Flow Control would probably be the marine's second base of choice then, unless they want to set up in Turbine for added harassment on the alien's Containment Hive.
Likewise would aliens have an easier time to set up in Pipeworks.
No idea how this would really play out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It won't play out at all. With the current sprint values the Marines would easily rush through Turbine and consistently pressure Containment (similar to close spawns). You're also giving them incredibly easy access to Pipeline, which dumps out into Lava Falls, and Turbine (4 immediate RT's) if Marines want to be aggressive and expand forward. It's also very easy to cut off Alien expansion from Lava Falls as there is a fairly short hallway over to Pipeworks (where Aliens would be expanding to safely drop a hive). There was a reason why this map isn't random spawn and you're pretty much nailing it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Swap the team's starting positions, so aliens start in Flow Control and Marines in Containment</b>
Would probably need some additional adjustment for Lava Falls, so the central wall is on the other side of the RTs. This would actually make it harder for aliens to instantly get into Lava Falls.
Marines would easily get an RT in Chasm then and possibly set up in Turbine as well. Aliens would get the longer RT paths in the south of the map, though this would not stall their team as much as it does for the marines because the khammander can build stuff without needing his team to assist.
Alien start locations could probably even be randomized between Smelting and Flow Control.
I honestly have no idea how this change would play out in praxis.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of the RT's in that portion of the map will need to be repositioned to keep Marines from immediately getting 4-5 RT's right off the bat. There was also a reason as to why Alien Harvesters are weaker than the Marine Extractors - also Aliens have to cyst up to the nodes so longer paths would actually hurt the Aliens more than making it balanced. Having Marines start in Containment is also giving them Turbine as a second tech point right off the bat. It's similar to when Veil had a tech point at the double location - it was incredibly unbalanced and made the games focused on one specific room instead of key points of the map. Again. It will never play out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Change the map layout to make the path between Smelting and Flow Control shorter</b>
That extra arc in the map layout down there makes it a really long walk for marines through Transit and gives aliens way too much time to chew on an RT there before marines from either side can react. Cutting it a bit shorter would increase the marine starting chances quite a bit, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sprint helps to keep this distance fairly short. Any shorter and you might as well have it the same distance between Containment and Turbine. You cannot give Marines so many resources right off the bat. You have to pick your expansions and protect them. Not drop Extractors all over and hope that they'll somehow stay alive. Expand out to where you know you'll be able to keep extractors pre-phase tech then expand out further.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Change RT locations</b>
The game seems to be in a kind of dilemma where it does not want to have more than 10 RTs in a map but still wants to make every room interesting enough to fight for it. But 10 RTs are not enough for all rooms in such a big map. Maybe it wouldn't be too much to add an 11th RT location somewhere in Exchange? Or to move one Lava Falls RT into Heatsink instead, to give aliens less of an RT advantage in one spot? Having the center of the map under control to get quickly from one side of the map to the other seems like enough of a reward already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
11 RT's completely broke the game. The map originally had 11-12 RT's and completely unbalanced it. Hence why it's 10.
These discussions are done during map testing for these maps. There is a team of people who play these maps 2-3 times a week for a good 2-4 hours and discuss nothing but map/rt layouts in their own forums. The Refinery you see now is the result of those countless hours of testing and discussion.. trust me it was way, way worse than it was back before the layouts were reworked; not to mention it had a lot more hallways than it does now.
Refinery is basically impossible to hold as marines for the same reason, there's just so many places where skulks can seemingly just materialize out of the walls.
Smelter has the same problem actually, although it's more the cieling that's the issue.
There's just everything except the concept of a "big" central room stacked in the aliens favor on that map, probably because the map maker was under the impression that lava falls would be so marine biased that aliens would rarely ever have a chance in the map. and obviously there's a point at which it goes way too far.
The real big problem with the map, is basically whoever gets lava falls wins the game, and right now it's just impossible for a marine team to do so reliably.
The resource map on this map, by far, needed to be changed before mineshaft. Aliens will, almost always, have their start node, 2 in lava, the one between containment and turbine, and turbine, all fairly safe from harrassment. Marines, if they're decent, will have their start, transit which will be constantly harrassed by only one skulk, smelting maybe if they keep a good push on the node between smelting and turbine and phase tech comes into play pretty quickly. Pipe will generally be heavily contested unless the aliens are snoozing as well. That's 2, maybe 3 reliable res nodes for marines. Holding areas early, for marines, require armory placements in at least 2 or 3 locations (pipe, smelting, conduit), while researching phase tech and then getting 3 phasegates up around the map. This is a huge resource sync altogether while also trying to get the arms lab up and upgrades going, all this on fewer nodes usually. There is just no sense to it at all.
Personally, what I would like to see is a node added in between pipe and flow control. Also the room between flow and transit removed, because it's just unecessary really, shortening the path to transit and smelting. This at least adds 2 nodes between tech points on the *marine* side of the map, similar to veil, where aliens also have (unless they start on the far right) easier access to quick double res point.
All of the RT's in that portion of the map will need to be repositioned to keep Marines from immediately getting 4-5 RT's right off the bat. There was also a reason as to why Alien Harvesters are weaker than the Marine Extractors - also Aliens have to cyst up to the nodes so longer paths would actually hurt the Aliens more than making it balanced. Having Marines start in Containment is also giving them Turbine as a second tech point right off the bat. It's similar to when Veil had a tech point at the double location - it was incredibly unbalanced and made the games focused on one specific room instead of key points of the map. Again. It will never play out.
Sprint helps to keep this distance fairly short. Any shorter and you might as well have it the same distance between Containment and Turbine. You cannot give Marines so many resources right off the bat. You have to pick your expansions and protect them. Not drop Extractors all over and hope that they'll somehow stay alive. Expand out to where you know you'll be able to keep extractors pre-phase tech then expand out further.
11 RT's completely broke the game. The map originally had 11-12 RT's and completely unbalanced it. Hence why it's 10.
These discussions are done during map testing for these maps. There is a team of people who play these maps 2-3 times a week for a good 2-4 hours and discuss nothing but map/rt layouts in their own forums. The Refinery you see now is the result of those countless hours of testing and discussion.. trust me it was way, way worse than it was back before the layouts were reworked; not to mention it had a lot more hallways than it does now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are placing way, WAY too much value on marine sprint. You can't even get to 1 node in 1 sprint from marine start, and only one of them is anywhere important. Couple that with the fact aliens move quicker even without celerity on a long trek to either node for marines and you get the results we have currently. You guys might have tested this map extensively but the stats speak for themselves. It's HEAVILY imbalanced, so I'm not putting much stock into your last paragraph at all.
it's still a work in progress and I think the current live version of Refinery is there partially due to time constraints, because the changes needed to make Refinery viable are pretty damn massive
Well, clearly. That's why I'm a little mystified why someone would come in touting the fact "they've been heavily playtested and we talk about this in our own forums so your discussion is unecessary", when it obviously bears discussion by more people since the ones who *did* playtest it didn't get the job done.
perhaps you are reading posts with an unnecessarily hostile tone? why can't it just be "it is heavily playtested and discussed in our forums, so it's not like we aren't addressing it"
Because the entire tone of the post was higher then thou, and that never ceases to piss me off. Every point was shot down, at least half with some silly sprint reasoning. I mean, if this level of ineptitude was part of the process of playtesting these maps, it's no wonder this one is so far under par. But to try to justify it in that manner? Inexcusable really. I thought the OP had some actual good points and to see the amount of effort spent in shooting that down in the name of "we playtested it, we're handling it" is just absurd when the other party is genuinely trying to help.
I'm actually not sure if there are random spawns on this map, AFAIK both Alien and Marine spawns are static. Maybe that's the problem.
No. That's not the problem. The map isn't balanced. Plain and simple. The OP has brought up many valid points.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Move the marine starting position from Flow Control to Smelting
Swap the team's starting positions, so aliens start in Flow Control and Marines in Containment<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm against this simply because it doesn't actually 'fix' anything. Flow control is still a crappy area to have a hive/tech point. I'd rather fix flow control than just move. Although a move could be a good temporary measure, it still won't be balanced. The hike to/from transit is way too long.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Change the map layout to make the path between Smelting and Flow Control shorter<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This I agree with, and I also would like to see the vent removed from directly beside the node. Move it to the small curved track area just outside the south door to smelting. I also like the idea of moving the Transit res node into the room directly to the west of it. It's still far enough away, and the extractor could be placed behind the pipes in that room so that marines can't simply defend from the window. They will still have to go to it.
I'd also like to see a res node placed between Flow Control and Pipeline. Normally most maps will have a node halfway between tech points, yet this is the only place on the map which doesn't have one. I'd suggest the little cubby on the left side at the end of the room when you exit going north from Flow Control. Put the power node in the hallway up there that goes east/west, just to the right of that cubby.
As for the double res node, I am on record as HATING double res nodes, since they are almost always never placed in a balanced fashion. Lava Falls is essentially an alien gift, but it shouldn't be. The nodes are basically indefensible for marines. Double nodes should be in the MIDDLE of the map, not closer to either end. I'd say about to the point where the ramp to the west is. I'd also like to see the area enlarged so that there is room to battle for either team. Ideally I'd like to see the double node gone. I'd rather see it a single and take the other node and put it in the place I suggested above.
Another problem as noted by Mavick are the large open rooms. The middle of the map is a Lerk expressway. I'd like to see more obstacles placed up high (ones that can't be perched on by lerk or jetpacker) as a means to make it more challenging for 'fliers'.
Move the double RT's more to the center of Lava Falls.
Add a hallway between Containment and Lava falls so aliens aren't automatically there, adding roughly the same amount of distance as the marines have to walk currently.
Downsize the map a little. If there's a slider, bring it down by 1 or 2 notches. It doesn't need to be a dramatic decrease, just a little to bring the map more together.
That's about all I would change. I like the map, it's just a bit too big and gives instant access to a double res node to aliens, making it an uphill battle for the marines if all other things are equal.
If every problem a team is faced with is exactly the same but with a different coat of paint then it will actually be quite restricting in the long-term as players can't cope with anything but the 'default.'
If every problem a team is faced with is exactly the same but with a different coat of paint then it will actually be quite restricting in the long-term as players can't cope with anything but the 'default.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maps are a source of imbalance... They HAVE to change for balance. I see what you're saying, but the implication that maps have to accommodate balance doesn't mean all maps are clones of each other, or no maps have any individually imbalanced area, or areas that force or free up specific play styles. It just means that if I have a key area that's alien biased, marines need some advantage somewhere else potentially.
StarCraft Brood war was never balanced with the official maps, there were a host of different problems for various levels of play. The brood war community addressed the problem by making their own maps and playing them exclusively. Zerg wouldn't win x% any more, because the maps that people played were less conducive to the overpowered strategies zerg could use, (mostly muta stuff) etc. This method, balance entirely using map mechanics proved extremely effective in keeping the scene alive and well.
There DEFINITELY is game balance that still needs to be done in NS2, but the maps for the most part have their issues as well. The 15% discrepency of aliens winning on refinery vs aliens winning on summit is a CLEAR indication that there's big problems with the map as it is.
There some particular reason the world at large isn't being told what? I can't think of a good one.
People are going to cry, period. It's not a valid reason to hold anything back in the process, especially in a game like this. If anything, more input is good, even if you have to weed through more nonsense.
If enough people have performance problems on this map. It wouldn't wonder why marines lose this often.
There are plenty of changes in the works to work towards fixing these problems and I'm going to try to have a new version by Christmas. There's no point in announcing changes before they've been through at least one playtest, in case they turn out to be unworkable. What I can say for certain is that there will be a new RT in the Exchange area, and the Transit route has been shortened. That Transit vent entrance will be moved as well.
There are plenty of changes in the works to work towards fixing these problems and I'm going to try to have a new version by Christmas. There's no point in announcing changes before they've been through at least one playtest, in case they turn out to be unworkable. What I can say for certain is that there will be a new RT in the Exchange area, and the Transit route has been shortened. That Transit vent entrance will be moved as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually thought refinery is fairly well balanced, almost reminiscent of the older bigger maps.
Marines actually have to make a choice which side they push down as they actually have some decent walks which bring in a disadvantage for the.
Aliens have lots of vent access to allow them to actually be quicker across the map, this is the way it should be.
Its funny as when this maps played with experienced marines they can easily win either through an all in hive assault or a slow push round through smelting. People get distracted by the double res and forget about the rest of the map.
I think the only issues are probably with the power locations at marine spawn and pipe apart from that I think the rest of the maps well done with some decent penalty for marines before phase tech.
I'm not sure 'easily win' is a phrase you can use, unless these experienced marines are playing against newbies. I know what you're saying, though and it's a valid point. A hard hive assault is usually the best strategy for marines in general, as long as you have a few people building up the rest of the map and securing the points/tech locations - that's not specific to refinery!
Good to hear that there's progress on this map, now hopefully the UWE official servers can all be made to a full map rotation (so many single/triple map combos, not enough all official maps servers, at least in EU), so we can get a chance to play it more often when it's fixed :)
Roo
Did you forget the part where aliens are generally all faster than marines by default let alone with celerity. Aliens can transition through the rooms on this map so fast they generally ignore the vents altogether.
Marine RT's in this map are super exposed/vulnerable to ninja skulks that generally have an advantage over a single marine providing they don't just chomp on the RT like a manic hungry hippo. Marines only get map control in numbers which reduces the amount of places they can cover at once and to top it off the commander needs marine cooperations to build gear.
Personally i'm glad to see changes being made to this map, i can't say i've ever seen more than a handful of marine wins and only then when the teams have been stacked.
The value of Sprint is not measured in how quickly you can reach a node, its about map control. Your argument that the distance marines have to travel to reach key locations becomes moot as soon as they research phase tech. The reason the Resource towers are distanced from marine start has nothing to do with how fast marines move and everything to do with pacing their tech advancement.
Also "you guys might have tested this map extensively but the stats speak for themselves." Your logic being what? That it wasn't tested enough or that somehow you're better informed or more qualified than the maptesters to make changes to the map? You're dismissing the reasoning of the maptesters out of hand and then using your own anecdotes to justify your opinion. You're also being unnecessarily rude about it. Don't like the 'learn to play' argument? Try this one. Learn to be polite, or maybe Learn to Logic. Take your pick.
<!--quoteo(post=2041351:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:14 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 7 2012, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And just to put that asinine "marine sprint" argument into perspective: guess how many res points a marine could reach in one sprint duration if they started in containment? 3. Yes, there's a good reason alien nodes are weaker, but it really doesn't matter if marines can't even manage to get to them unless you can actually spare a marine who's going to luck out and reach one without encountering aliens or be good enough to handle 1 or 2 on his own, if not spotted and killed by more of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're suggesting that having marines start in Containment is balanced because they can reach 3 resource towers from spawn using one sprint? This is, I have to say, the most asinine rationale I've heard. And using your own logic here, I'm going to go ahead and disregard everything you've written here because its nonsense and apparently I don't need to justify why in order for it to be true.
<!--quoteo(post=2041354:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:16 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 7 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, clearly. That's why I'm a little mystified why someone would come in touting the fact "they've been heavily playtested and we talk about this in our own forums so your discussion is unecessary", when it obviously bears discussion by more people since the ones who *did* playtest it didn't get the job done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a little mystified as to why you have suddenly taken up the mantle of "Best Map Tester Ever," and decided to wield that arrogant title like a cudgel. Your absurd hostility is toxic to this thread and the forums. As well, hostile responses only make you look foolish and undermine the legitimacy of your arguments. Take a breath and chill out.
<!--quoteo(post=2041359:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:28 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 7 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the entire tone of the post was higher then thou, and that never ceases to piss me off. Every point was shot down, at least half with some silly sprint reasoning. I mean, if this level of ineptitude was part of the process of playtesting these maps, it's no wonder this one is so far under par. But to try to justify it in that manner? Inexcusable really. I thought the OP had some actual good points and to see the amount of effort spent in shooting that down in the name of "we playtested it, we're handling it" is just absurd when the other party is genuinely trying to help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Objectivism is only "higher than thou" (also, 'than' not 'then') when you read such a tone into it. No point was "shot down," but they were addressed. That you don't like the reasoning, and find the arguments silly has nothing to do with the tone of the post, but it does explain why you would read such a tone into the text.
Calling playtesters and maptesters who spent a great many hours working out the problems with this map inept is, however, a "higher than thou" attitude, and your ridiculously hypocritical position, along with your foolishly arrogant attitude, is what's really inexcusable here.
It's noble of you to step in and defend the OP's honor from the horrible, terrifying threat that is SabaHell's post. You should be awarded the "Forum Good Guy" award for your efforts.
How about you step back a minute and try not to insult the work of others before you take exception to any more imagined slights.
<!--quoteo(post=2041385:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:58 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 7 2012, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There some particular reason the world at large isn't being told what? I can't think of a good one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there some particular reason the world at large needs to know? Why should you be told what's going on with the map? Is it somehow your privilege to be kept informed? Who are you and what qualifies you to make these kinds of assessments? Why are you even in this thread?
<!--quoteo(post=2041402:date=Dec 7 2012, 02:53 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 7 2012, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are going to cry, period. It's not a valid reason to hold anything back in the process, especially in a game like this. If anything, more input is good, even if you have to weed through more nonsense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dealing with people like you is a perfectly good reason to hold back the process. And the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" logic isn't exactly a compelling justification for your position. Also, its called an NDA. Go look it up.
Also, "if anything, more input is good, even if you have to weed through more nonsense." I'm afraid that's simply not true. Conflicting, overwhelming feed back is not helpful. Feedback is only useful when it is focused and objective.
How about this, want to be part of the process? Want to make the commitment to test maps? Go talk to a playtester and submit an app to the Maptesting team, then you can enjoy bug testing maps for hours on end only have people whine and complain about them when you have no real control over them. Enjoy.
Anybody feel up to it?