Playing a effective skulk is way easier than playing a effective marine in a game. The skill ceiling between teams is really even. I can take low level competitive and gathers in for exmaple, most rounds end up with alien victories.
The reason for this is that marines actually have to play really aggressive to stand up versus the aliens. Just allowing the aliens to hold 3 rts untouched is way to much. On public its very common to see marine commanders play very defensive and not support their aggressive players ( no meds/ammo drops/scans). They focus to much on teching up to exos but that gives the aliens plenty of time to get onoses up and win the marine team.
I would suggest to not make any balance changes befor both performance and the hitreg problems are fixed. Improvements in those caegories help aiming so much.
Marine comm requires a lot more skill and is easier to mess up. It also requires you and your players watch the minimap for Power Nodes and PGs that are taking damage. The amount of times our main or forward base loses power to a single skulk or gorge...
The mobility and grouping mentality leads to lower map control, especially early game. How many times have you seen 90% of your team walk the same route at the start and then only ever go that route?
The lack of HMG also feels like it's hurting Marines. Even at late-game, SG isn't a massive advantage over LMG because the LMG is mush lower risk and easier to use (plus the lower spread at range).
Then there's Exos who can die so easily to Skulks and Beacons.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2012
Here i have 1 example that helps the aliens MUCH.
Imagine an 18 slot summit game, marines start in sub aliens in atrium. 5 !! marines wait in vent for around 1 min for an restower while the marinecom spend all the 50 startes in an robo, arms lab and obs, 2 Marines in base building the stuff.
Meanwhile the aliens spread all over the map and building 4 harvesteres. 1 "idiot" marine try to kill the harvesters but he always dying, cause he is always alone. Now the 5 marinepack run to DC and wait again for the next restower. Meanwhile the marinecom spend ressources for turrets in base and vent. It seems more important for pub marines to run around in packs of minimum 5 and waste time building useless turrets instead attacking alien-infrastructure.
I saw this example so often last times with little variations.
<!--quoteo(post=2041527:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:33 PM:name=Alregard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alregard @ Dec 7 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would suggest to not make any balance changes befor both performance and the hitreg problems are fixed. Improvements in those caegories help aiming so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally agree , with better hitreg and performances i think aliens may have a hard time and marines need a nerf ^^
<!--quoteo(post=2041530:date=Dec 7 2012, 09:41 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Dec 7 2012, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine comm requires a lot more skill and is easier to mess up. It also requires you and your players watch the minimap for Power Nodes and PGs that are taking damage. The amount of times our main or forward base loses power to a single skulk or gorge...
The mobility and grouping mentality leads to lower map control, especially early game. How many times have you seen 90% of your team walk the same route at the start and then only ever go that route?
The lack of HMG also feels like it's hurting Marines. Even at late-game, SG isn't a massive advantage over LMG because the LMG is mush lower risk and easier to use (plus the lower spread at range).
Then there's Exos who can die so easily to Skulks and Beacons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an alien commander on a regular basis, I can tell you that one of the most annoying and painful methods I've seen marines use is the marines having a dedicated extended RT pusher. What I mean by this is that he doesn't worry about getting weapons of any kind. He's constantly advancing past the "front lines" of combat and taking out res towers and breaking cyst chains. He dies a lot, but he's lost nothing, and just keeps coming and being super aggressive. This causes a skulk or two to always have to fall back just to cover our butts. It's a big resource drain having to rebuild res towers, and a random cyst chain breakage down the line can be very annoying even for the alien front line.
So, what's my point? Don't be afraid of being aggressive as the marines. It's so easy to play defensively as marines because it's dangerous out and about away from the safety of a nearby armory, phasegate, and turrets. However, playing defensively does nothing but give the alien team easy resources. Go aggressive. Don't play the "kill ALL the cysts!" game. Run past a few, break the chain on one, then move on to break another down the line. Killing one at a time just leaves you as an easy target. If you break one, the others will die off. If the alien commander catches it, he just spent some res to re-chain the cysts again. That's free favor towards your team as you've lost nothing. Even if you die, you only had an LMG. Who cares? Your actions are a resource drain on the enemy team. Go for rear resource towers. They rebuilt? Who cares? Go get it again. Just pester the heck out of the alien commander. The only way they can respond is to take aliens from the front line to defend their res towers closer to home. That lets your marine team push and gain territory easier. In every situation, you're helping by doing this for absolutely no cost to your res pool.
You can NOT let the aliens get away with res towers over an extended period of time. They DO roll in. If the commander isn't having to worry about protecting his resource towers, he's got a lot of toys to utilize with all the extra res, including forward base crags and whips. Keep that enemy commander busy! Keep hitting cyst chains and res towers.
I don't know if this is a drastic issue but playing as a marine is just frustrating as hell vs skulks atm without jetpacks on pubs. People like splitting up, not supporting each other yet if you do find these scenarios where marine squads are pushing around the map, all you need is a pack of skulks to wipe them all out without too many losses unless the marines are really good.
Part of it feels like trying to hit a skulk that is fast and knowledgeable of evasive maneuvers as an average or less marine is nigh impossible without team support or a spread or splash hitbox weapon or you are VERY good. Either it's because accuracy is just abhorrent, skulks are too fast or hit reg is screwed because since B232 I can't hit skulks for sh!t. I'm not a great shot with the rifle or shotty but I'm not atrocious. Then again, I see good players who know how to aim just demolish a lot of pub skulks but is that an accurate representation? How challenging is it for them to hit really good skulk players? Maybe it's just me but if this is the case, this would explain a lot of marine losses because without maintaining early pressure and holding key locations thanks to inaccuracy or hitreg issues, the game snowballs out of control for aliens.
I'm still hearing people suggest that the balance issue is the 'players fault'. Sorry, but game balance doesn't work that way.
As for Marines needing more coordination then aliens, that is working as intended. It was the opposite in NS1 and that was counter-intuitive. In short the marines need to work as a team, while the aliens need to work as a collective. The latter is much easier to pull off with a group of people who don't know one another.
However, I disagree with suggestions that the only way Marines *should* be able to win is with a rush. Can marines win with a rush? Sure. I pull that off all the time and if you check the stats marines win 57% of games under 5 minutes. However from 5-10 minutes the alien win rate is 63%, and marines don't see a win rate go back over 50% until you reach the 35 minute mark.
The problem is that no one should ideally be winning in under 10 minutes in normal circumstances. If we took away the marine wins in under 5 minutes, their win ratio drops under 40%. Wins with a 'rush' mean that the majority of the game content goes unused. Why bother making an Onos model?
What the game needs is a way to give marines a means to survive after the 5 minute mark. Electrified extractors would be ideal IMHO, since they give marines more response time, something they badly need. (Before anyone tries to suggest 'sprint' makes up for it, please don't waste your time or mine trying to get me to swallow that tripe.)
Marines often lose not because they are 'bad shots', but they don't have the res to get the upgrades to make them competitive. I'm actually fine with the power of the skulks, and I don't want to see any nerfs to the bite/glancing bite design. Skulks can be killed, and once the hit registration problem is fixed this will get a bit more even.
An armor 0/weapon 0 LMG marine isn't going to have much luck versus an Onos. That's why there are upgrades. Well marines can't afford those upgrades when they can't protect their early game extractors. And if they sit around protecting them then they can't advance, and they are screwed that way as well.
Once the marines get even a bit behind with tech upgrade the game is essentially over. Marines will never catch up since they don't have the tech to secure more res nodes - or to make effective pushes against alien resources and hives. They don't have the tech to secure res nodes, and they can't get the tech because they can't secure res nodes. Catch-22.
The beauty of electrified extractors is that they pose no real threat to gorges/lerks - or to late game aliens - and they don't prevent the extractor from being killed by a skulk. Just kill the power node and then the extractor. If marines aren't there by then they deserve to lose it.
This game is built on a resource model. All the LMG kills in the world won't save you if 10 minutes later you are getting rolled by a half-dozen Onos. Give the marines the resources and they can remain competitive.
<!--quoteo(post=2041559:date=Dec 7 2012, 10:46 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 7 2012, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still hearing people suggest that the balance issue is the 'players fault'. Sorry, but game balance doesn't work that way.
As for Marines needing more coordination then aliens, that is working as intended. It was the opposite in NS1 and that was counter-intuitive. In short the marines need to work as a team, while the aliens need to work as a collective. The latter is much easier to pull off with a group of people who don't know one another.
However, I disagree with suggestions that the only way Marines *should* be able to win is with a rush. Can marines win with a rush? Sure. I pull that off all the time and if you check the stats marines win 57% of games under 5 minutes. However from 5-10 minutes the alien win rate is 63%, and marines don't see a win rate go back over 50% until you reach the 35 minute mark.
The problem is that no one should ideally be winning in under 10 minutes in normal circumstances. If we took away the marine wins in under 5 minutes, their win ratio drops under 40%. Wins with a 'rush' mean that the majority of the game content goes unused. Why bother making an Onos model?
What the game needs is a way to give marines a means to survive after the 5 minute mark. Electrified extractors would be ideal IMHO, since they give marines more response time, something they badly need. (Before anyone tries to suggest 'sprint' makes up for it, please don't waste your time or mine trying to get me to swallow that tripe.)
Marines often lose not because they are 'bad shots', but they don't have the res to get the upgrades to make them competitive. I'm actually fine with the power of the skulks, and I don't want to see any nerfs to the bite/glancing bite design. Skulks can be killed, and once the hit registration problem is fixed this will get a bit more even.
An armor 0/weapon 0 LMG marine isn't going to have much luck versus an Onos. That's why there are upgrades. Well marines can't afford those upgrades when they can't protect their early game extractors. And if they sit around protecting them then they can't advance, and they are screwed that way as well.
Once the marines get even a bit behind with tech upgrade the game is essentially over. Marines will never catch up since they don't have the tech to secure more res nodes - or to make effective pushes against alien resources and hives. They don't have the tech to secure res nodes, and they can't get the tech because they can't secure res nodes. Catch-22.
The beauty of electrified extractors is that they pose no real threat to gorges/lerks - or to late game aliens - and they don't prevent the extractor from being killed by a skulk. Just kill the power node and then the extractor. If marines aren't there by then they deserve to lose it.
This game is built on a resource model. All the LMG kills in the world won't save you if 10 minutes later you are getting rolled by a half-dozen Onos. Give the marines the resources and they can remain competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that the only way to win as marines is to rush and that the balance is fine, I'm saying currently with the current balance, playing too defensively will cause a marine loss. You simply cannot let the aliens get away with free res with many of their res towers being untouched all game. Marines really need to be aggressive on taking out the enemy economy. That's just how it is currently and how to deal with the imbalance. We can only play with what we have. I think you're spot on with electrified RTs.
In 6v6 - 8v8 when I go marines we win 76-88% of the time, When I go aliens in 6v6 - 8v8 we win 69-84% of the time,
Does this say much about the balance of the game.... Not really, the only thing that it tells me is that half of pub players are quite bad.
If you want help learning more of the finer fascists of NS2 I bet there are quite a few people here that would be willing to help (including my self). Overall aliens are in a strange place right now, but by no means they are OP....
Once Camo is out of its funk, people stop saving for Exos from minute one, and some of the other Metagame smoke clears - then we can talk about balance. Right now is just plane to hard to tell.....
<!--quoteo(post=2041534:date=Dec 7 2012, 10:53 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 7 2012, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As an alien commander on a regular basis, I can tell you that one of the most annoying and painful methods I've seen marines use is the marines having a dedicated extended RT pusher. What I mean by this is that he doesn't worry about getting weapons of any kind. He's constantly advancing past the "front lines" of combat and taking out res towers and breaking cyst chains. He dies a lot, but he's lost nothing, and just keeps coming and being super aggressive. This causes a skulk or two to always have to fall back just to cover our butts. It's a big resource drain having to rebuild res towers, and a random cyst chain breakage down the line can be very annoying even for the alien front line.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, that's me. :)
The most fun part yesterday was, when a teammate ranted at me, after we lost a long game, in which we had a clear advantage, because our comm was so OBSESSED in getting Nano Grid back. He forgot that taking Double-Res doesn't win you the game. Killing hives does.
I pointed it out several times that we have to attack hives to win the game, but nobody would listen.
I reached perfect phase-gate-positions like The Neck and Y-Junction, decysted them and asked for a PG ---> no response...
So I went on killing 4 or 5 alien harvesters, countless cysts and even managed to destroy 2 upgrade chambers and a bunch of eggs, while our exos accompanied by the "League of the Unwelding Marines" ran into bilebombs continuously trying to take Nano against a pretty tough alien defense.
The ranting teammate said after the game: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"People need to learn how to aim."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I replied: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->"We should have focused on taking out hives instead of messing around at Nano. That's why we lost the game."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> He said: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"What? Look at your stats! 3 13! Learn to play!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Yeah, it's all about aiming...
Aiming helps a lot, but only if you know the general aims in the game concept, e.g. killing hives to win.
By the way I am convinced that my aiming at harvesters, cysts and chambers was very very precise. :D
I am fully capable of commanding and getting wins as marines, but I never command as marines unless there are a few people on the team who can shoot. You can't win as marines when 3/4's of your marines can't kill aliens because they can't hit them. As a matter of fact, the general quality of marines insofar as hitting targets they shoot at is so bad whenever a marine plays that can hit targets, aliens simply assume the marine is hacking because seeing marines who can hit aliens reliably is rare anymore.
Part of this is the hit reg and how the interpolation effects marines at longer ranges. This isn't really a problem for aliens as their entire damage system just " feels right". UWE wants to address this but requires reproducing the problem to address it. The problem is so many of us who have been playing for months if not years are so used to this system we understand how "predictably unpredictable" it is and have adjusted our style of play. New players do not have the inclination to do this and they move on to greener pastures.
<!--quoteo(post=2041531:date=Dec 7 2012, 10:48 AM:name=Gnubbolo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gnubbolo @ Dec 7 2012, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->8 out of 10 games marines loose in public<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
sure, with 15-20 fps, how do you aim? give me a liquid cooled xeon with 5 Ghz and +100 fps, then we change the discourse<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen! This is where the glancing bite mechanic plays a huge role when skulking. I can't hit the broadside of a barn when my frames inexplicably drop to unplayable levels during combat, but I can at least still do some bite damage even though I will most likely get mowed down.
<!--quoteo(post=2041396:date=Dec 7 2012, 02:42 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 7 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry, but "learn to play" is not a valid excuse for the imbalance of marine/alien wins.
There are far too many 'new players' to suggest that somehow only the 'vets' are playing alien and only the 'newbies' are playing marine. There are new players on both sides, yet aliens seem to be doing better.
The game has a balance issue, and UWE knows there is a balance issue. To their credit UWE doesn't want to over-react, but right now they are taking baby steps when they should be taking normal ones.
I won't bother posting my thoughts on what can be changed to improve balance, but I will say that unless balance is addressed people are going to start losing their patience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, however; there is a certain degree of "Learn to Play" going on. People with no NS experience can jump on aliens and, due to the nature of the alien team, do <i>okay</i> not listening to the commander. Aliens lend themselves to a bit of chaos. By the same token those same people can jump on to marines and think, based on past FPS experience, "I know how to play this" and fail miserably because they rely on their past DM experiences.
I need more play time to comment on specifics of imbalance so I won't make any comments on this either. And yes it is up to the game to train players, which was an inherent problem with NS1. Something needs to assist green players.
It probably has to do with the game design being incredibly counter-intuitive.
Marines are good at defending and Aliens are good at attacking. So <i>obviously</i> the right way to play is for Marines to constantly be on offensive and Aliens to constantly be on defense.
It should be the other way around. Aliens get map control and Marines have to turtle on a couple of res nodes. It even makes more sense from a lore perspective, since the maps are supposed to be Marines responding to Kharaa attacks. So it would make sense for them to already have an established foothold while the Marines invade, then hold them off long enough to build up the resources to start a siege.
it's more like 9/10. i don't count games where teams are stacked
when skills are low and even, an alien win is almost guaranteed
the engine performs so horribly that marines simply cannot shoot well enough to win fights, while aliens get 4-5 undisputed harvesters and marines struggle to put up the 2nd or 3rd extractor
if this game was made in a more competitive gaming engine that actually ran on peoples' computers with 120 frames per second and where netcode and responsiveness didn't completely suck, then you would see more competent marines
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--fonto:Impact--><span style="font-family:Impact"><!--/fonto--><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->Update:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> I thank you all for your insightful suggestions, further on I will state some quotes of this thread that addressing the key issues in my opinion.
]MetaMind: I think aliens are better in protecting there territory and this is giving them a huge advantage in the mid to end game.
xxswatelitexx: Problem is game style, Most marines will bunch and and forget to harass alien nodes. They will keep pressuring one point. You will see the marines which win games are constantly harassing the aliens RTs are the ones that eventually win.
Seahunts: The marine team is more reliant on team work and communication than the alien team. Two things that are not always in abundance on pub servers.
hus: A good marine comm still has to earn a win, whereas a very average alien comm only has to accumulate enough res nodes so people can go onos and work out the rest. The differences in effort required can be frustrating.
HeatSurge: It takes a lot more skill and coordination on marine side to push positions than it does on alien side. I'm not saying aliens don't need coordination, they definitely do. I'm saying that in two teams comprised of average/bad players aliens usually win pretty easily - and a strategic mistake on marine side is punished much more severely than a mistake on alien side.
Roobubba: For me, it boils down to the need for marines to build (and therefore not be killing aliens or moving out), whereas the Khamm can just build while his aliens push out and harass.
Viajero: Solution: Devs or modders balance the two races to an acceptable level for pub gaming (possibly ensuring higher level of play and comp play remains also balanced... this may be a tough challenge).
Necro: (If you buff marines for bad players, you automatic buff them for good players too!) Thats why we need to nerf the play-style of good marines in exchange. For balance!
grazr: Unfortunately TF2 has taught us you can't balance against stupidity; and that game has symmetrical teams.
Apheirox: No. I think the real issue is being overlooked here. The real reason Aliens win is a very simple one: Superior K/D ratio. Aliens are simply getting more kills, Marines are dying more It is too easy for Aliens to desorientate Marines by constantly jumping around them and it is equally silly to have Marines jumping around frantically while firing a pulse rifle. There's too much Quake in this and too little 'tactical shooter'.
Seahunts: Contra to Apheirox: Especially don't nerf skulk jumping. WTF would skulks have without it?
Alregard: I would suggest to not make any balance changes befor both performance and the hitreg problems are fixed. Improvements in those caegories help aiming so much.
RaZDaz: ...without maintaining early pressure and holding key locations thanks to inaccuracy or hitreg issues, the game snowballs out of control for aliens.
Savant: In short the marines need to work as a team, while the aliens need to work as a collective. The latter is much easier to pull off with a group of people who don't know one another.
...if you check the stats marines win 57% of games under 5 minutes. However from 5-10 minutes the alien win rate is 63%, and marines don't see a win rate go back over 50% until you reach the 35 minute mark.
...Electrified extractors would be ideal (aliens get hurt when attacking extractor while powernode is active)
...Well marines can't afford those upgrades when they can't protect their early game extractors. Give the marines the resources and they can remain competitive.
include: ... playing too defensively will cause a marine loss. You simply cannot let the aliens get away with free res with many of their res towers being untouched all game. I think you're spot on with electrified RTs.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->I hope UWE reads this and get somewhat of an impression of what the average player is thinking about balancing etc. Again thank you all for your contribution.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It's just the skulk. Too powerful. It ain't hard to use second route to behind marines and nomnom. Rines die in 2 bites (which are performed like 1.5meter away). Skulk animation, no one know where is it going. No predictability. Skulk going some direction and next frame munching your face. No Head, body or leg hits (both sides, ok glancing bites, but really, no head hits)? Hit reg and performance issues. Sum this all together and rines loose.
<!--quoteo(post=2041620:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:06 PM:name=Ograit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ograit @ Dec 7 2012, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just the skulk. Too powerful. It ain't hard to use second route to behind marines and nomnom. Rines die in 2 bites (which are performed like 1.5meter away). Skulk animation, no one know where is it going. No predictability. Skulk going some direction and next frame munching your face. No Head, body or leg hits (both sides, ok glancing bites, but really, no head hits)? Hit reg and performance issues. Sum this all together and rines loose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk are worse then basic LMG's (With sound on :P) ......
Aliens win more than marines because marine play consists of learning to shoot, whereas alien play consists of strapping a vibrator to your spacebar and holding m1 (at the lowest level). All pub alien play requires usually is to just do the aformentioned ###### strategy and then wait for your onos. Marine play consists of trying to convince marines to move to places, to keep them together, among other things.
In high level play marines know how to aim (or should), which is essentially most of what is needed to fight early aliens.
Unless you change how skulks play, and how onos play, it's not going to change.
Sorry, I disagree. Marines are the easiest to play precisely because 99% of players who buy NS2 have already played a FPS. They understand the 'point gun and pull trigger' mechanic very well thank you. It's why despite the excessive marine losses you STILL see people stacking the marine portal. Playing marines is 'familiar', they know how to play a FPS style avatar like a marine.
Skulks are fine IMHO. They are deadly at close range, just as they should be. Right now the issue isn't the skulk, it's marines that don't get the upgrades to better withstand skulk attacks. They are not getting those upgrades because marines are res starved because they can't hold res nodes. Aliens are too fast and can go from node to node keeping marines on the defence all game. Put in electrified res nodes and then see how the gameplay evens up real fast.
<!--quoteo(post=2041663:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 7 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, I disagree. Marines are the easiest to play precisely because 99% of players who buy NS2 have already played a FPS. They understand the 'point gun and pull trigger' mechanic very well thank you. It's why despite the excessive marine losses you STILL see people stacking the marine portal. Playing marines is 'familiar', they know how to play a FPS style avatar like a marine.
Skulks are fine IMHO. They are deadly at close range, just as they should be. Right now the issue isn't the skulk, it's marines that don't get the upgrades to better withstand skulk attacks. They are not getting those upgrades because marines are res starved because they can't hold res nodes. Aliens are too fast and can go from node to node keeping marines on the defence all game. Put in electrified res nodes and then see how the gameplay evens up real fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because someone has played an FPS before doesn't mean they were good at it, or that it required a lot of skill. CoD for example, focuses only on horizontal movement, and has no vertical aiming differentiation majority of the time; people die in 3-5 hits and make a usually large target. Skulks are much different, jumping around extremely fast comparatively and going all around the vertical and horizontal axis, and take 10 bullets or more to kill.
The most fun part yesterday was, when a teammate ranted at me, after we lost a long game, in which we had a clear advantage, because our comm was so OBSESSED in getting Nano Grid back. He forgot that taking Double-Res doesn't win you the game. Killing hives does.
I pointed it out several times that we have to attack hives to win the game, but nobody would listen.
I reached perfect phase-gate-positions like The Neck and Y-Junction, decysted them and asked for a PG ---> no response...
So I went on killing 4 or 5 alien harvesters, countless cysts and even managed to destroy 2 upgrade chambers and a bunch of eggs, while our exos accompanied by the "League of the Unwelding Marines" ran into bilebombs continuously trying to take Nano against a pretty tough alien defense.
The ranting teammate said after the game: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"People need to learn how to aim."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I replied: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->"We should have focused on taking out hives instead of messing around at Nano. That's why we lost the game."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> He said: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"What? Look at your stats! 3 13! Learn to play!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Yeah, it's all about aiming...
Aiming helps a lot, but only if you know the general aims in the game concept, e.g. killing hives to win.
By the way I am convinced that my aiming at harvesters, cysts and chambers was very very precise. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a critical tech point before which most hive rushes fail and after which most hive rushes succeed. (W1 shotgun in the midgame, adding JP to that in the late game). This isn't the law of the land, in a few rare situations 4 marines can just sit and AR down an active hive, but as a commander it can be unwise to gamble on that. Additionally, taking down a hive properly is expensive. If you just kill the hive and run off and do something else, sure, you've hurt the alien team, but 95% of the time they just redrop it in the next minute and the only real accomplishment you've made is delaying hive 3 tech a few minutes and costing the aliens 40 res they really didn't need that much anyways because at that point in the game they're swimming with res.
I agree, you definately can lose a game by fixating on NanoGrid in veil, but I've had games go the other way too, where my team attacked hives so much, we hadn't secured enough res, we couldn't keep up in tech, and we lost the long game. You can lose by NOT fixating on Nano too. It's a balance point, and sometimes it's hard to hit the right balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2041679:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 7 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a critical tech point before which most hive rushes fail and after which most hive rushes succeed. (W1 shotgun in the midgame, adding JP to that in the late game). This isn't the law of the land, in a few rare situations 4 marines can just sit and AR down an active hive, but as a commander it can be unwise to gamble on that. Additionally, taking down a hive properly is expensive. If you just kill the hive and run off and do something else, sure, you've hurt the alien team, but 95% of the time they just redrop it in the next minute and the only real accomplishment you've made is delaying hive 3 tech a few minutes and costing the aliens 40 res they really didn't need that much anyways because at that point in the game they're swimming with res.
I agree, you definately can lose a game by fixating on NanoGrid in veil, but I've had games go the other way too, where my team attacked hives so much, we hadn't secured enough res, we couldn't keep up in tech, and we lost the long game. You can lose by NOT fixating on Nano too. It's a balance point, and sometimes it's hard to hit the right balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's what I call the "4 RT rule". Whichever side can take and hold 4 rt's for 5 minutes first generally wins. That side generally is aliens in public games. Some maps and starting locations make this even worse, such as on Tram when Marines start Warehouse and aliens start Shipping. In that case unless the marines have a huge skill advantage they will always loose. Also the aliens have an overall better "comeback" mechanic, the Onos, where the marine siege weapon is bad in comparison.
I think the best way to address this is to have all the tech points be valid starting locations
<!--quoteo(post=2041531:date=Dec 7 2012, 08:48 AM:name=Gnubbolo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gnubbolo @ Dec 7 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->8 out of 10 games marines loose in public<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
sure, with 15-20 fps, how do you aim? give me a liquid cooled xeon with 5 Ghz and +100 fps, then we change the discourse<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I peak at 200 and I don't have a liquid cooled xeon... Just a liquid cooled i7 2600k and 2 gtx 680's
Obviously whichever team is doing a better job of killing the other team is probably going to win. Very few times have I lost on marines when I had a score of like 24 to 2 or something, and if I did the reason was because the comm didn't beacon. <b>But see here's what you're saying, aliens win because they have a better K/D ratio. You're saying the better players are playing aliens. This has nothing to do with any balance or jumping issues. This is entirely to do with bad players on the marine team.</b>
I really wish you'd all stop trying to fix things that aren't broken. I have no problem winning on either team, in fact marines are generally an easier win as long as we have a halfway decent comm. Marines can easily steam roll an alien team if they know how to shoot and position themselves, end of story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just... No...
According to that if UWE tripled skulk health causing a huge shift in K/D ratios across the board everything would be dandy because "hey the better players are winning". There is this thing called game balance that we are trying to discuss here that also factors into the outcome.
That you win most of your matches regardless of race means nothing. How can you know you aren't simply a better marine player? We are dealing with averages here and the averages clearly show there is an imbalance waiting to be fixed. Even if somebody managed to come up with any compelling evidence to demonstrate there is indeed any kind of a skill gap between the players of the two races - which I have yet to see -, we can't have a meaningful discussion without assuming equal player skill. Otherwise any argument people disagree with can be shot down by saying "yeah but that guy must have been terrible".
LMG hit rectangle is what... 1 cm wide? Skulk hit rectangle is more than half your screen. At higher levels of play glancing bites shouldn't matter much because people tend to hit their marks anyway but when both sides have bad aim they give a big advantage to skulks. Pardon me for the extreme example but imagine actually pitting two blind players against each other and I can guarantee you the skulk will win most of the engagements, whereas with 100% accurate bots the marine would win every time. The problem is that glancing bites weren't designed with the current hitreg issues in mind and there is only so much accuracy can do before even competitive players begin to feel its balance shifting effect. As much as I hate assuming the wait and see stance, improving hitreg can throw all other speculations out the window.
A lot of people have been downloading those alien skin mods, basically it makes all aliens look like neon lights on steroids. I always wondered how a marine can see me from so far way and kill me in .5 seconds, now I wonder no more.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amb: A lot of people have been downloading those alien skin mods, basically it makes all aliens look like neon lights on steroids.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you re spot on, this is cheating, UWE should ban those kinds of skin cheating/hacking !!!
Comments
The reason for this is that marines actually have to play really aggressive to stand up versus the aliens. Just allowing the aliens to hold 3 rts untouched is way to much. On public its very common to see marine commanders play very defensive and not support their aggressive players ( no meds/ammo drops/scans). They focus to much on teching up to exos but that gives the aliens plenty of time to get onoses up and win the marine team.
The mobility and grouping mentality leads to lower map control, especially early game. How many times have you seen 90% of your team walk the same route at the start and then only ever go that route?
The lack of HMG also feels like it's hurting Marines. Even at late-game, SG isn't a massive advantage over LMG because the LMG is mush lower risk and easier to use (plus the lower spread at range).
Then there's Exos who can die so easily to Skulks and Beacons.
sure, with 15-20 fps, how do you aim?
give me a liquid cooled xeon with 5 Ghz and +100 fps, then we change the discourse
Imagine an 18 slot summit game, marines start in sub aliens in atrium.
5 !! marines wait in vent for around 1 min for an restower while the marinecom spend all the 50 startes in an robo, arms lab and obs, 2 Marines in base building the stuff.
Meanwhile the aliens spread all over the map and building 4 harvesteres.
1 "idiot" marine try to kill the harvesters but he always dying, cause he is always alone.
Now the 5 marinepack run to DC and wait again for the next restower. Meanwhile the marinecom spend ressources for turrets in base and vent.
It seems more important for pub marines to run around in packs of minimum 5 and waste time building useless turrets instead attacking alien-infrastructure.
I saw this example so often last times with little variations.
Totally agree , with better hitreg and performances i think aliens may have a hard time and marines need a nerf ^^
The mobility and grouping mentality leads to lower map control, especially early game. How many times have you seen 90% of your team walk the same route at the start and then only ever go that route?
The lack of HMG also feels like it's hurting Marines. Even at late-game, SG isn't a massive advantage over LMG because the LMG is mush lower risk and easier to use (plus the lower spread at range).
Then there's Exos who can die so easily to Skulks and Beacons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an alien commander on a regular basis, I can tell you that one of the most annoying and painful methods I've seen marines use is the marines having a dedicated extended RT pusher. What I mean by this is that he doesn't worry about getting weapons of any kind. He's constantly advancing past the "front lines" of combat and taking out res towers and breaking cyst chains. He dies a lot, but he's lost nothing, and just keeps coming and being super aggressive. This causes a skulk or two to always have to fall back just to cover our butts. It's a big resource drain having to rebuild res towers, and a random cyst chain breakage down the line can be very annoying even for the alien front line.
So, what's my point? Don't be afraid of being aggressive as the marines. It's so easy to play defensively as marines because it's dangerous out and about away from the safety of a nearby armory, phasegate, and turrets. However, playing defensively does nothing but give the alien team easy resources. Go aggressive. Don't play the "kill ALL the cysts!" game. Run past a few, break the chain on one, then move on to break another down the line. Killing one at a time just leaves you as an easy target. If you break one, the others will die off. If the alien commander catches it, he just spent some res to re-chain the cysts again. That's free favor towards your team as you've lost nothing. Even if you die, you only had an LMG. Who cares? Your actions are a resource drain on the enemy team. Go for rear resource towers. They rebuilt? Who cares? Go get it again. Just pester the heck out of the alien commander. The only way they can respond is to take aliens from the front line to defend their res towers closer to home. That lets your marine team push and gain territory easier. In every situation, you're helping by doing this for absolutely no cost to your res pool.
You can NOT let the aliens get away with res towers over an extended period of time. They DO roll in. If the commander isn't having to worry about protecting his resource towers, he's got a lot of toys to utilize with all the extra res, including forward base crags and whips. Keep that enemy commander busy! Keep hitting cyst chains and res towers.
Part of it feels like trying to hit a skulk that is fast and knowledgeable of evasive maneuvers as an average or less marine is nigh impossible without team support or a spread or splash hitbox weapon or you are VERY good. Either it's because accuracy is just abhorrent, skulks are too fast or hit reg is screwed because since B232 I can't hit skulks for sh!t. I'm not a great shot with the rifle or shotty but I'm not atrocious. Then again, I see good players who know how to aim just demolish a lot of pub skulks but is that an accurate representation? How challenging is it for them to hit really good skulk players? Maybe it's just me but if this is the case, this would explain a lot of marine losses because without maintaining early pressure and holding key locations thanks to inaccuracy or hitreg issues, the game snowballs out of control for aliens.
As for Marines needing more coordination then aliens, that is working as intended. It was the opposite in NS1 and that was counter-intuitive. In short the marines need to work as a team, while the aliens need to work as a collective. The latter is much easier to pull off with a group of people who don't know one another.
However, I disagree with suggestions that the only way Marines *should* be able to win is with a rush. Can marines win with a rush? Sure. I pull that off all the time and if you check the stats marines win 57% of games under 5 minutes. However from 5-10 minutes the alien win rate is 63%, and marines don't see a win rate go back over 50% until you reach the 35 minute mark.
The problem is that no one should ideally be winning in under 10 minutes in normal circumstances. If we took away the marine wins in under 5 minutes, their win ratio drops under 40%. Wins with a 'rush' mean that the majority of the game content goes unused. Why bother making an Onos model?
What the game needs is a way to give marines a means to survive after the 5 minute mark. Electrified extractors would be ideal IMHO, since they give marines more response time, something they badly need. (Before anyone tries to suggest 'sprint' makes up for it, please don't waste your time or mine trying to get me to swallow that tripe.)
Marines often lose not because they are 'bad shots', but they don't have the res to get the upgrades to make them competitive. I'm actually fine with the power of the skulks, and I don't want to see any nerfs to the bite/glancing bite design. Skulks can be killed, and once the hit registration problem is fixed this will get a bit more even.
An armor 0/weapon 0 LMG marine isn't going to have much luck versus an Onos. That's why there are upgrades. Well marines can't afford those upgrades when they can't protect their early game extractors. And if they sit around protecting them then they can't advance, and they are screwed that way as well.
Once the marines get even a bit behind with tech upgrade the game is essentially over. Marines will never catch up since they don't have the tech to secure more res nodes - or to make effective pushes against alien resources and hives. They don't have the tech to secure res nodes, and they can't get the tech because they can't secure res nodes. Catch-22.
The beauty of electrified extractors is that they pose no real threat to gorges/lerks - or to late game aliens - and they don't prevent the extractor from being killed by a skulk. Just kill the power node and then the extractor. If marines aren't there by then they deserve to lose it.
This game is built on a resource model. All the LMG kills in the world won't save you if 10 minutes later you are getting rolled by a half-dozen Onos. Give the marines the resources and they can remain competitive.
As for Marines needing more coordination then aliens, that is working as intended. It was the opposite in NS1 and that was counter-intuitive. In short the marines need to work as a team, while the aliens need to work as a collective. The latter is much easier to pull off with a group of people who don't know one another.
However, I disagree with suggestions that the only way Marines *should* be able to win is with a rush. Can marines win with a rush? Sure. I pull that off all the time and if you check the stats marines win 57% of games under 5 minutes. However from 5-10 minutes the alien win rate is 63%, and marines don't see a win rate go back over 50% until you reach the 35 minute mark.
The problem is that no one should ideally be winning in under 10 minutes in normal circumstances. If we took away the marine wins in under 5 minutes, their win ratio drops under 40%. Wins with a 'rush' mean that the majority of the game content goes unused. Why bother making an Onos model?
What the game needs is a way to give marines a means to survive after the 5 minute mark. Electrified extractors would be ideal IMHO, since they give marines more response time, something they badly need. (Before anyone tries to suggest 'sprint' makes up for it, please don't waste your time or mine trying to get me to swallow that tripe.)
Marines often lose not because they are 'bad shots', but they don't have the res to get the upgrades to make them competitive. I'm actually fine with the power of the skulks, and I don't want to see any nerfs to the bite/glancing bite design. Skulks can be killed, and once the hit registration problem is fixed this will get a bit more even.
An armor 0/weapon 0 LMG marine isn't going to have much luck versus an Onos. That's why there are upgrades. Well marines can't afford those upgrades when they can't protect their early game extractors. And if they sit around protecting them then they can't advance, and they are screwed that way as well.
Once the marines get even a bit behind with tech upgrade the game is essentially over. Marines will never catch up since they don't have the tech to secure more res nodes - or to make effective pushes against alien resources and hives. They don't have the tech to secure res nodes, and they can't get the tech because they can't secure res nodes. Catch-22.
The beauty of electrified extractors is that they pose no real threat to gorges/lerks - or to late game aliens - and they don't prevent the extractor from being killed by a skulk. Just kill the power node and then the extractor. If marines aren't there by then they deserve to lose it.
This game is built on a resource model. All the LMG kills in the world won't save you if 10 minutes later you are getting rolled by a half-dozen Onos. Give the marines the resources and they can remain competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that the only way to win as marines is to rush and that the balance is fine, I'm saying currently with the current balance, playing too defensively will cause a marine loss. You simply cannot let the aliens get away with free res with many of their res towers being untouched all game. Marines really need to be aggressive on taking out the enemy economy. That's just how it is currently and how to deal with the imbalance. We can only play with what we have. I think you're spot on with electrified RTs.
When I go aliens in 6v6 - 8v8 we win 69-84% of the time,
Does this say much about the balance of the game.... Not really, the only thing that it tells me is that half of pub players are quite bad.
If you want help learning more of the finer fascists of NS2 I bet there are quite a few people here that would be willing to help (including my self).
Overall aliens are in a strange place right now, but by no means they are OP....
Once Camo is out of its funk, people stop saving for Exos from minute one, and some of the other Metagame smoke clears - then we can talk about balance.
Right now is just plane to hard to tell.....
Hey, that's me. :)
The most fun part yesterday was, when a teammate ranted at me, after we lost a long game, in which we had a clear advantage, because our comm was so OBSESSED in getting Nano Grid back. He forgot that taking Double-Res doesn't win you the game. Killing hives does.
I pointed it out several times that we have to attack hives to win the game, but nobody would listen.
I reached perfect phase-gate-positions like The Neck and Y-Junction, decysted them and asked for a PG ---> no response...
So I went on killing 4 or 5 alien harvesters, countless cysts and even managed to destroy 2 upgrade chambers and a bunch of eggs, while our exos accompanied by the "League of the Unwelding Marines" ran into bilebombs continuously trying to take Nano against a pretty tough alien defense.
The ranting teammate said after the game: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"People need to learn how to aim."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I replied: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->"We should have focused on taking out hives instead of messing around at Nano. That's why we lost the game."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
He said: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"What? Look at your stats! 3 13! Learn to play!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Yeah, it's all about aiming...
Aiming helps a lot, but only if you know the general aims in the game concept, e.g. killing hives to win.
By the way I am convinced that my aiming at harvesters, cysts and chambers was very very precise. :D
Part of this is the hit reg and how the interpolation effects marines at longer ranges. This isn't really a problem for aliens as their entire damage system just " feels right". UWE wants to address this but requires reproducing the problem to address it. The problem is so many of us who have been playing for months if not years are so used to this system we understand how "predictably unpredictable" it is and have adjusted our style of play. New players do not have the inclination to do this and they move on to greener pastures.
sure, with 15-20 fps, how do you aim?
give me a liquid cooled xeon with 5 Ghz and +100 fps, then we change the discourse<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen! This is where the glancing bite mechanic plays a huge role when skulking. I can't hit the broadside of a barn when my frames inexplicably drop to unplayable levels during combat, but I can at least still do some bite damage even though I will most likely get mowed down.
There are far too many 'new players' to suggest that somehow only the 'vets' are playing alien and only the 'newbies' are playing marine. There are new players on both sides, yet aliens seem to be doing better.
The game has a balance issue, and UWE knows there is a balance issue. To their credit UWE doesn't want to over-react, but right now they are taking baby steps when they should be taking normal ones.
I won't bother posting my thoughts on what can be changed to improve balance, but I will say that unless balance is addressed people are going to start losing their patience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, however; there is a certain degree of "Learn to Play" going on. People with no NS experience can jump on aliens and, due to the nature of the alien team, do <i>okay</i> not listening to the commander. Aliens lend themselves to a bit of chaos. By the same token those same people can jump on to marines and think, based on past FPS experience, "I know how to play this" and fail miserably because they rely on their past DM experiences.
I need more play time to comment on specifics of imbalance so I won't make any comments on this either. And yes it is up to the game to train players, which was an inherent problem with NS1. Something needs to assist green players.
Marines are good at defending and Aliens are good at attacking. So <i>obviously</i> the right way to play is for Marines to constantly be on offensive and Aliens to constantly be on defense.
It should be the other way around. Aliens get map control and Marines have to turtle on a couple of res nodes. It even makes more sense from a lore perspective, since the maps are supposed to be Marines responding to Kharaa attacks. So it would make sense for them to already have an established foothold while the Marines invade, then hold them off long enough to build up the resources to start a siege.
when skills are low and even, an alien win is almost guaranteed
the engine performs so horribly that marines simply cannot shoot well enough to win fights, while aliens get 4-5 undisputed harvesters and marines struggle to put up the 2nd or 3rd extractor
if this game was made in a more competitive gaming engine that actually ran on peoples' computers with 120 frames per second and where netcode and responsiveness didn't completely suck, then you would see more competent marines
I thank you all for your insightful suggestions, further on I will state some quotes of this thread that addressing the key issues in my opinion.
]MetaMind:
I think aliens are better in protecting there territory and this is giving them a huge advantage in the mid to
end game.
xxswatelitexx:
Problem is game style, Most marines will bunch and and forget to harass alien nodes. They will keep pressuring
one point. You will see the marines which win games are constantly harassing the aliens RTs are the ones that
eventually win.
Seahunts:
The marine team is more reliant on team work and communication than the alien team. Two things that are not
always in abundance on pub servers.
hus:
A good marine comm still has to earn a win, whereas a very average alien comm only has to accumulate enough
res nodes so people can go onos and work out the rest.
The differences in effort required can be frustrating.
HeatSurge:
It takes a lot more skill and coordination on marine side to push positions than it does on alien side. I'm
not saying aliens don't need coordination, they definitely do. I'm saying that in two teams comprised of
average/bad players aliens usually win pretty easily - and a strategic mistake on marine side is punished much
more severely than a mistake on alien side.
Roobubba:
For me, it boils down to the need for marines to build (and therefore not be killing aliens or moving out),
whereas the Khamm can just build while his aliens push out and harass.
Viajero:
Solution: Devs or modders balance the two races to an acceptable level for pub gaming (possibly ensuring
higher level of play and comp play remains also balanced... this may be a tough challenge).
Necro:
(If you buff marines for bad players, you automatic buff them for good players too!) Thats why we need to nerf
the play-style of good marines in exchange. For balance!
grazr:
Unfortunately TF2 has taught us you can't balance against stupidity; and that game has symmetrical teams.
Apheirox:
No. I think the real issue is being overlooked here.
The real reason Aliens win is a very simple one: Superior K/D ratio. Aliens are simply getting more kills,
Marines are dying more
It is too easy for Aliens to desorientate Marines by constantly jumping around them and it is equally silly to
have Marines jumping around frantically while firing a pulse rifle. There's too much Quake in this and too
little 'tactical shooter'.
Seahunts:
Contra to Apheirox: Especially don't nerf skulk jumping. WTF would skulks have without it?
Alregard:
I would suggest to not make any balance changes befor both performance and the hitreg problems are fixed.
Improvements in those caegories help aiming so much.
RaZDaz:
...without maintaining early pressure and holding key locations thanks to inaccuracy or hitreg issues, the
game snowballs out of control for aliens.
Savant:
In short the marines need to work as a team, while the aliens need to work as a collective. The latter is much
easier to pull off with a group of people who don't know one another.
...if you check the stats marines win 57% of games under 5 minutes. However from 5-10 minutes the alien win
rate is 63%, and marines don't see a win rate go back over 50% until you reach the 35 minute mark.
...Electrified extractors would be ideal (aliens get hurt when attacking extractor while powernode is active)
...Well marines can't afford those upgrades when they can't protect their early game extractors.
Give the marines the resources and they can remain competitive.
include:
... playing too defensively will cause a marine loss. You simply cannot let the aliens get away with free res
with many of their res towers being untouched all game.
I think you're spot on with electrified RTs.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->I hope UWE reads this and get somewhat of an impression of what the average player is thinking about balancing etc.
Again thank you all for your contribution.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Skulk are worse then basic LMG's (With sound on :P) ......
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->BUT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Prediction has a small trail + a little funky hetreg = confused by jumping skulks
EDIT:
"Rines die in 2 bites"......
Armor 0 (160hp) = (para + 2 full-bites) or (3 bites)
Armor 1 (200hp) = (3 Full-bites)
Armor 2 (240hp) = (3 full-bites + one half bite)
Armor 3 (280hp) = (4 Full-bites)
In high level play marines know how to aim (or should), which is essentially most of what is needed to fight early aliens.
Unless you change how skulks play, and how onos play, it's not going to change.
Skulks are fine IMHO. They are deadly at close range, just as they should be. Right now the issue isn't the skulk, it's marines that don't get the upgrades to better withstand skulk attacks. They are not getting those upgrades because marines are res starved because they can't hold res nodes. Aliens are too fast and can go from node to node keeping marines on the defence all game. Put in electrified res nodes and then see how the gameplay evens up real fast.
Skulks are fine IMHO. They are deadly at close range, just as they should be. Right now the issue isn't the skulk, it's marines that don't get the upgrades to better withstand skulk attacks. They are not getting those upgrades because marines are res starved because they can't hold res nodes. Aliens are too fast and can go from node to node keeping marines on the defence all game. Put in electrified res nodes and then see how the gameplay evens up real fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because someone has played an FPS before doesn't mean they were good at it, or that it required a lot of skill. CoD for example, focuses only on horizontal movement, and has no vertical aiming differentiation majority of the time; people die in 3-5 hits and make a usually large target. Skulks are much different, jumping around extremely fast comparatively and going all around the vertical and horizontal axis, and take 10 bullets or more to kill.
The most fun part yesterday was, when a teammate ranted at me, after we lost a long game, in which we had a clear advantage, because our comm was so OBSESSED in getting Nano Grid back. He forgot that taking Double-Res doesn't win you the game. Killing hives does.
I pointed it out several times that we have to attack hives to win the game, but nobody would listen.
I reached perfect phase-gate-positions like The Neck and Y-Junction, decysted them and asked for a PG ---> no response...
So I went on killing 4 or 5 alien harvesters, countless cysts and even managed to destroy 2 upgrade chambers and a bunch of eggs, while our exos accompanied by the "League of the Unwelding Marines" ran into bilebombs continuously trying to take Nano against a pretty tough alien defense.
The ranting teammate said after the game: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"People need to learn how to aim."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I replied: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->"We should have focused on taking out hives instead of messing around at Nano. That's why we lost the game."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
He said: <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->"What? Look at your stats! 3 13! Learn to play!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Yeah, it's all about aiming...
Aiming helps a lot, but only if you know the general aims in the game concept, e.g. killing hives to win.
By the way I am convinced that my aiming at harvesters, cysts and chambers was very very precise. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a critical tech point before which most hive rushes fail and after which most hive rushes succeed. (W1 shotgun in the midgame, adding JP to that in the late game). This isn't the law of the land, in a few rare situations 4 marines can just sit and AR down an active hive, but as a commander it can be unwise to gamble on that. Additionally, taking down a hive properly is expensive. If you just kill the hive and run off and do something else, sure, you've hurt the alien team, but 95% of the time they just redrop it in the next minute and the only real accomplishment you've made is delaying hive 3 tech a few minutes and costing the aliens 40 res they really didn't need that much anyways because at that point in the game they're swimming with res.
I agree, you definately can lose a game by fixating on NanoGrid in veil, but I've had games go the other way too, where my team attacked hives so much, we hadn't secured enough res, we couldn't keep up in tech, and we lost the long game. You can lose by NOT fixating on Nano too. It's a balance point, and sometimes it's hard to hit the right balance.
I agree, you definately can lose a game by fixating on NanoGrid in veil, but I've had games go the other way too, where my team attacked hives so much, we hadn't secured enough res, we couldn't keep up in tech, and we lost the long game. You can lose by NOT fixating on Nano too. It's a balance point, and sometimes it's hard to hit the right balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's what I call the "4 RT rule". Whichever side can take and hold 4 rt's for 5 minutes first generally wins. That side generally is aliens in public games. Some maps and starting locations make this even worse, such as on Tram when Marines start Warehouse and aliens start Shipping. In that case unless the marines have a huge skill advantage they will always loose. Also the aliens have an overall better "comeback" mechanic, the Onos, where the marine siege weapon is bad in comparison.
I think the best way to address this is to have all the tech points be valid starting locations
sure, with 15-20 fps, how do you aim?
give me a liquid cooled xeon with 5 Ghz and +100 fps, then we change the discourse<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I peak at 200 and I don't have a liquid cooled xeon... Just a liquid cooled i7 2600k and 2 gtx 680's
Obviously whichever team is doing a better job of killing the other team is probably going to win. Very few times have I lost on marines when I had a score of like 24 to 2 or something, and if I did the reason was because the comm didn't beacon. <b>But see here's what you're saying, aliens win because they have a better K/D ratio. You're saying the better players are playing aliens. This has nothing to do with any balance or jumping issues. This is entirely to do with bad players on the marine team.</b>
I really wish you'd all stop trying to fix things that aren't broken. I have no problem winning on either team, in fact marines are generally an easier win as long as we have a halfway decent comm. Marines can easily steam roll an alien team if they know how to shoot and position themselves, end of story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just... No...
According to that if UWE tripled skulk health causing a huge shift in K/D ratios across the board everything would be dandy because "hey the better players are winning". There is this thing called game balance that we are trying to discuss here that also factors into the outcome.
That you win most of your matches regardless of race means nothing. How can you know you aren't simply a better marine player? We are dealing with averages here and the averages clearly show there is an imbalance waiting to be fixed. Even if somebody managed to come up with any compelling evidence to demonstrate there is indeed any kind of a skill gap between the players of the two races - which I have yet to see -, we can't have a meaningful discussion without assuming equal player skill. Otherwise any argument people disagree with can be shot down by saying "yeah but that guy must have been terrible".
LMG hit rectangle is what... 1 cm wide? Skulk hit rectangle is more than half your screen. At higher levels of play glancing bites shouldn't matter much because people tend to hit their marks anyway but when both sides have bad aim they give a big advantage to skulks. Pardon me for the extreme example but imagine actually pitting two blind players against each other and I can guarantee you the skulk will win most of the engagements, whereas with 100% accurate bots the marine would win every time. The problem is that glancing bites weren't designed with the current hitreg issues in mind and there is only so much accuracy can do before even competitive players begin to feel its balance shifting effect. As much as I hate assuming the wait and see stance, improving hitreg can throw all other speculations out the window.
you re spot on, this is cheating, UWE should ban those kinds of skin cheating/hacking !!!