<!--quoteo(post=2042485:date=Dec 9 2012, 03:03 PM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Dec 9 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is actually in a fairly good state right now. L2P is the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, it's not. You know why? Because in competitive games the stats are just as skewed.
Please, oh please tell me you're gonna tell the competitive players to "learn to play" because I really want to see the end result of that.
In actual fact? Marines win more often in PUB games than in competitive games, based on the states from NS2stats.org - so what does that tell you?
It tells me that this isn't a "learn to play" situation at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2042578:date=Dec 9 2012, 12:58 PM:name=sharnrock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sharnrock @ Dec 9 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The design philosophy seems to be, marines have to attack in packs. Aliens can kinda rambo until they need a push. Except, once marines expand a certain amount, it's nearly impossible for them to defend all their positions in packs. If marines don't win before the 15 minute mark, all the aliens need is for 3 players to save enough p-res for an onos, and it's game over. In a nutshell, if marines don't do everything right, the aliens win by default. Simply because all they need is p-res. Back in ns1 you couldn't go onos until hive 3 got up. Now you can have everyone go onos with a single hive.
If the performance improved significantly, I think we would see things swing back into the middle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This really sums up how I'm feeling too. If marines split up anywhere we get overrun!
I also feel like marine weapons have ZERO stopping power! Aliens have SO MANY OPTIONS FOR KILLING US! Even the shotgun usually takes multiple shots to kill. There is nothing (weapons wise) that can be done against an Onos in your base, other than collectively shooting untill you all get killed multiple times, at which point the onos is now dead, but so is more than half of your base! You then have to rebuild just in time for another wave of onos to sweep through!
Still, I love the game, and I will admit I don't feel like I'm even a "Good" player yet.
<!--quoteo(post=2042598:date=Dec 9 2012, 01:57 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 9 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And doors and vents need to be weldable to more easily secure a location without having to invest a ton in barely effective sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2042693:date=Dec 10 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 10 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it's not. You know why? Because in competitive games the stats are just as skewed.
Please, oh please tell me you're gonna tell the competitive players to "learn to play" because I really want to see the end result of that.
In actual fact? Marines win more often in PUB games than in competitive games, based on the states from NS2stats.org - so what does that tell you?
It tells me that this isn't a "learn to play" situation at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol @ all the wiry haters. OP claims <b>95% alien wins</b> (basically saying 100% with -5% to make it sound like a "considered" winrate), and this clearly isn't a L2P issue? You arn't seriously telling me you believe alien win rates are anywhere close to this? God forbid someone with a heap of gameplay experience, great gamesense, and fps skill to boot has a solid idea of the current state of balance.
NS2stats stating that marines win more often in pub games than comp only shows me that the OP is just stating a premature opinion based on very limited anecdotal evidence. It's immediately obvious if you actually read the entire OP. That is L2P. *And i mean that in the 'don't give up, keep playing and get better to win' way. Not the 'you suck nooblet' way.
<!--quoteo(post=2042582:date=Dec 9 2012, 04:13 PM:name=godrifle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (godrifle @ Dec 9 2012, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Pickup games were also skewed towards the Alien race. PUG Games have ALL competent players but no extremely good players from clans playing against each other. Every single person had a mic at least. PUGS are exactly where we have NO "L2P" issues, yet we still say Aliens Race was dominantly winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From the competitive matches I've been watching so far, there's alien bias. Fana tells me as teams get more balanced at the elite levels, extremely skilled marines are able to make fewer mistakes and secure more victories however.
Right now the game feels like it's the marines game to win or lose. The more mistakes they make, the more they sabotage their potential. The aliens don't have to do as many things 'right', If the comm is decent and they derp around sufficiently, as long as the marines make mistakes, aliens will win. The aliens can't seem to force the win right now, they can just hope the marines sabotage themselves enough that their team comes out on top.
I think one major change that's needed is that skulks need to be able to parasite mines down in MUCH fewer shots. Mines are absurd for the first 10 minutes of the game in their current form.
<!--quoteo(post=2042581:date=Dec 10 2012, 12:12 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Dec 10 2012, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines don't put nearly enough pressure on alien RTs these days. I always tell my marines form the get go: go kill harvesters, I don't give two flying ###### if you die and neither should you, as long as you get that job done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This ! Marines do not realise that they are <u> free</u> units who respawn even faster than aliens and can be as devastating to buildings as skulks.
Also,I'd say that its really easy to lock marines into the base early game,since alien comm can build all by himself,while all players rush to base forcing beacons and locking marines in the base since they cant exit to make resource nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=2042803:date=Dec 9 2012, 11:59 PM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This ! Marines do not realise that they are <u> free</u> units who respawn even faster than aliens and can be as devastating to buildings as skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But camping helps my KDR dude. Waiting for skulks to attack enables me to "|_æ|_Z P\/\/NæD!!!1oneone" them all the way to ready room so I can talk ###### and have my glee.
Also, what are these "building" things? I thought this was all about shooting (free) skulks. If you kill 20 skulks with 20:0 KDR you win, amirite?
P.S. In all seriousness, I think most people are actually learning how to play, at least on the servers I play on, so this is less and less of an issue.
In my observation, the game is slowly returning to the enjoyable games like in the beta where most if not all understood what they were doing.
There are still confused people here and there, but it's nowere near as bad as it was just 2-3 weeks ago.
Stats aren't that meaningful. I'll expand. It doesn't say if a game was fun. It doesn't say if the game was a legit win (team with no commander, base rush, F4s). It's one thing to consider, but far from the whole picture.
Also. Stats from 3 weeks ago or more aren't worth much. Hell, this game is so poorly explained to players, that every week, players get better and better (or worse and worse depending on the retention percentage of players). This makes it so that every week the general population of players learns new strats and get better with X or Y aspect of the game. Thus one week you could see 50/50 wins, and the next 60/40. This is a huge difference. Anything above 5% is very noticeable.
The other important aspect is who you play with. Pubs aren't really pubs. Most people will play with a limited subset of the total player base. Most players will play at similar hours on similar servers (time zone, life style and ping account for this). Thus, while you might play with better players (more knowledge, better skills...), another person might play with a very different pool of players.
I've been on servers where I won 5 games in a row has aliens, and lost 5 in a row has marines. This makes 10 games in a row lost for marines. With most players changing teams frequently. While this is not necessarily proof of team imbalance, if it happens often enough it does give the impression of imbalance. Which is sufficient to merit a serious investigation.
There is one certainty in my opinion. UWE cannot approve of a "learn 2 play" strategy to address this issue. The game's learning curve is too steep and the game mechanics often too obscure and ambiguous (not to mention they keep changing in patches). For certain players, that will be enough for them to quit. This is bad for everyone because multiplayer games only survive with a plentiful and diverse player base.
Learn 2 play is thus unacceptable. Players do need to get better at the game, but that's UWEs job to make the game easy to learn (I didn't say easy to play btw, big difference).
Also, imagining a great world where every player knows everything about NS2, I am certain that the win/loss percentage would not be 50/50. It is impossible. It could be close enough though, like 52/48 or something. But I highly doubt that that would be the case. If it were, UWE would deserve a lot of money for being so good at game design. With asymetrical gameplay and asymetrical maps, it's impossible that every map would see perfect win loss.
And on a final note, I am certain that some maps feature a much better or much worse win/loss ration. Thus, if you played 100 games on the most balanced map, you might find the game to be balanced. But if you played on ns_imbalancemuch, maybe you'll have a different impression.
Most of the public games I play marines run around like headless chickens. At first glance of a skulk in their base half the team basically stays behind to defend the base.
Granted, Marine commander require a lot more skill to be on par with an alien commander. As a marine commander you have, at least in public games, sometimes up to 12 people you have to supply with medpacks, ammo packs, give orders, etc. At the same time, as an alien comm you don't need nearly as much micro/macro management.
I believe this is the core issue of why marines aren't winning as much. People are too familiar with solo-rushing and winning in numorous low-skill/high gain-games that have hit the market in recent years. Games that don't punish players [enough] for mistakes.
I pub-marines would stick together in small groups, hitting multiple places at once, and get a good enough commander that can keep up with giving 10~ people medpacks/ammo and still be on top of teching we'd see a lot more marine wins.
I think that If you would dumb down the marine side of the game any team that is actually competent would stomp any alien team with ease. Hopefully this won't happen and they will increase the skill requirement for the alien commander.
On a personal note, I think that late game marines are a bit more powerful than late game aliens.
The only problem is Marines don't know how to play, they mostly try and defend instead of getting aggressive and taking res and hives. Once they figure this out, marines will probably win just as much or more than aliens.
EDIT: I will say though that if at least 1/3 of your team can't aim moderately well, you're screwed and you have no chance of winning no matter what.
<!--quoteo(post=2042847:date=Dec 10 2012, 05:32 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 10 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only problem is Marines don't know how to play, they mostly try and defend instead of getting aggressive and taking res and hives. Once they figure this out, marines will probably win just as much or more than aliens.
EDIT:<b> I will say though that if at least 1/3 of your team can't aim moderately well, you're screwed and you have no chance of winning no matter what.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which takes us back to the hitreg/performance problems. :)
<!--quoteo(post=2042875:date=Dec 10 2012, 09:47 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Dec 10 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which takes us back to the hitreg/performance problems. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still don't understand the performance issues people get, disable occlusion and it's all good. Hitreg is a bit messed up right now though yeah so hopefully they fix it up next patch.
First: L2P may be valid to a certain extend. But L2P also means that >90% of new players will not play the game more then a few hours before being frustrated and going back to play BF3. People want to ENJOY the occasional round of NS2 after work, on weekends and so on. I'm sorry to tell you, but most people with a regular job just don't have the time to learn a game where you loose (or win without you bringing any contribution to it except for meatshield) for 150 hrs before you begin to have fun.
I myself talked 3 friends who really are core gamers (>1 year of WoW playtime, lvl 70 corporal BF3 etc) into buying NS2. None of them really played NS1 so it was a new concept to them. All but one abandoned the game within the first 24 hours because their perception of the game was that it is so unbalanced and badly designed that there is no point at all in playing it (I was playing with them and based on these games they played I can't really blame them). So you can of course say these people did not spend enough time with the game etc. And I certainly agree partially. But you have to realize that if players that are willing to spend thousands of hours in one single game react this way there is something wrong.
So I think at the moment the most critical problems for marines are:
- Performance. I don't have any issues but my computer is quite good. But yesterday I played on a 24p server. While I had good fps, the server just coul not handle hiverush situations where 10 marines stormed a hive. This resulted in a very bad server tick rate which is kind of similar to low fps. As marine I could not hit ###### anymore, but as Alien it was alright because I just jumped in the middle of the marine pack in an epileptic fashion lading quite some bites while the marines could not hit me because of the bad lag.
- Marine Comms need to be far better than alien comms. THIS may be one of the situations where L2P is not the worst argument.
- Map design: I think most of the maps are harder to win for marines than for aliens. This often is because of the locations of the rts being too far away from marinestart. A pub team will often struggle to secure a hive and 2-3 rts.
- Power Nodes: Power Nodes just downright rape pub marine teams. It is REALLY hard for casual players to constantly check all important power nodes. Especially in a 10v10 game where even while a big fight is taking place in one location there are always enough skulks to attack a hive power node. I think the power node mechanic for techpoints is very unfair for marines. If you want to kill an alien hive, you have to shoot the actual thing. If you want to kill a marine tech point you just eat the power node. (my favourite example: Sorting hive on mineshaft...) Again because it's really important to me: Power nodes ruin the game as they give the marine team, which relies on multiple buildings, an instagib Achilles' heel. In my opinion this isreally really bad game design.
- Not weldable Vents: Good example: Veil. If aliens get bile before marines get gls nanogrid can not be held be marines. Weldable vent could really help here.
- People learning to play Alien. Believe it or not, but L2P also applies for aliens. When I hear people talk here I get the impression, they often apply L2P only on marine skills, while they assume that the Alien skill stays the same. But especially within the last 2 weeks I met more and more Fades that had adepted to the NS2 Fade playstyle and were really raping average skilled pub marine teams. Also the number of skulks that are attacking in a straight line decreases.
<!--quoteo(post=2042891:date=Dec 10 2012, 07:53 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 10 2012, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still don't understand the performance issues people get, <b>disable occlusion and it's all good</b>. Hitreg is a bit messed up right now though yeah so hopefully they fix it up next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really. I'm guessing most people have occlusion off anyway, cause it's so resource hungry. It's not so much a settings issue. The problem is something inherent to the game. Early game I can keep up a solid 65 fps, but as the game progresses performance goes downhill until I'm struggling to maintain 30 fps in the late game skirmishes. And it's not just me.
I think you should add "shoot the gorge" before that ^^
<!--quoteo(post=2042598:date=Dec 9 2012, 10:57 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 9 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And doors and vents need to be weldable to more easily secure a location without having to invest a ton in barely effective sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this !!!
Its so ridicoulus when my average marine team pushes on and nobody notices the giggling skulk sitting in the vent waiting for them to leave to take down the phasegate -.-
Also, phasegates are the most ridicoulus thing i ever saw.
They go down like nothing and they should be renamed into AFTS. (Alien Food Transportation System)
I can tell some of you don't understand the pub marine psyche. Let me sum it up for you.
1) I have two devices which inflict damage at range and are worthless in melee! (And an axe, which I quickly learned might as well be healing aliens)
2) My enemies are almost exclusively melee oriented!
1+2= Turtling plays up <i>my</i> strengths, forces him to use his weaknesses, and thus should be very effective.
RTs don't factor into it. P/Tres don't factor into it. Map control doesn't factor into it. I can't understand at all how any of you think it is reasonable to assume marines should take 1+2 above and come up with "CHARGE (tactically)!" It's incredibly counter intuitive, unless you already know the game is built in such a way that defending is never the right strategy.
Edit: Contrast with new alien players
1) I'm melee, so melee that I don't actually have to hit my target, I just have to be close and hold mouse 1
2) My enemies have guns, but I have absolutely superior local mobility! (until jetpacks take that advantage away)
Of course they draw the conclusion that they're supposed to be on the offensive. They have no other option.
<!--quoteo(post=2042968:date=Dec 10 2012, 08:30 AM:name=sedek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sedek @ Dec 10 2012, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can tell some of you don't understand the pub marine psyche. Let me sum it up for you.
1) I have two devices which inflict damage at range and are worthless in melee! (And an axe, which I quickly learned might as well be healing aliens)
2) My enemies are almost exclusively melee oriented!
1+2= Turtling plays up <i>my</i> strengths, forces him to use his weaknesses, and thus should be very effective.
RTs don't factor into it. P/Tres don't factor into it. Map control doesn't factor into it. I can't understand at all how any of you think it is reasonable to assume marines should take 1+2 above and come up with "CHARGE (tactically)!" It's incredibly counter intuitive, unless you already know the game is built in such a way that defending is never the right strategy.
Edit: Contrast with new alien players
1) I'm melee, so melee that I don't actually have to hit my target, I just have to be close and hold mouse 1
2) My enemies have guns, but I have absolutely superior local mobility! (until jetpacks take that advantage away)
Of course they draw the conclusion that they're supposed to be on the offensive. They have no other option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yuuup. That's what I think, too.
<!--quoteo(post=2041594:date=Dec 7 2012, 10:05 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Dec 7 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It probably has to do with the game design being incredibly counter-intuitive.
Marines are good at defending and Aliens are good at attacking. So <i>obviously</i> the right way to play is for Marines to constantly be on offensive and Aliens to constantly be on defense.
It should be the other way around. Aliens get map control and Marines have to turtle on a couple of res nodes. It even makes more sense from a lore perspective, since the maps are supposed to be Marines responding to Kharaa attacks. So it would make sense for them to already have an established foothold while the Marines invade, then hold them off long enough to build up the resources to start a siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "L2P"-statement maybe insulting on the first glance, but the non-insulting core is true!
The marines need a good com to win or at least players, that know without order, that they need to harass alien economy. The aliens (while - on the first glance - not as easy to play as marines) can even win with a bad com. The aliens aren't such dependent to an experienced com. After new players got their first knowledge of how the alien team works, it is easier to win for them. While marines need much more knowledge to win, but are easy to pickup at first.
How to form this insulting "L2P"-argument into something constructive? If we don't make it easier for marines to learn how to win, the game will lose more players. One only loses that much before he gives up.
So we need to create a stronger com-dependence for the alien team or weaken that reliance at the marine team. OR We need to make defensive marine-play more win-viable. (That means full teched aliens are no longer at an advantage against full teched marines.) OR We need to find a way, that will teach new players from the first minutes, that they need to play aggressive (vs alien economy) as marines.
NS2 is a complex game, but it is really unbelievable how many players don't understand, that you need to damage the enemy economy instead of just racking kills up.
<!--quoteo(post=2042977:date=Dec 10 2012, 09:02 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 10 2012, 09:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a complex game, but it is really unbelievable how many players don't understand, that you need to damage the enemy economy instead of just racking kills up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Especially strange because people had no trouble with Nuclear Dawn, which is another RTS/FPS hybrid.
ND was ruined by Sentries, though. You have to be an anti-structure Exo or Sabo in order to do anything to them (And they are spammed EVERYWHERE), but any anti-structure loadout only has enough ammo to take down 1-2 Sentries at most. So the sentries get built faster than your team can destroy them. The game basically ends once the enemy has sentries in your base to spawn kill everyone.
It did have a cool feature where you if you could sneak into the enemy Comm station, you could just shoot the enemy Commander in the back of the head and completely shut down their infrastructure for as long as it took to get someone back in that seat.
- have you remembered to never build sentries because they are a waste of resources?
- are your dudes building extractors?
- are your dudes destroying harvestors?
- did you manage to get upgrades and shotguns before fades?
- did you secure tech node locations with phase gates?
- did you build a proto and researched jetpacks, using all the extra resources on ARCs?
- did you build enough ARCs?
- are you sure you built enough ARCs?
- You can NEVER have enough ARCs
- SHOOT THE ONOS, SHOOT IT
thank me later<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you're missing the part where you check to make sure your marines are using mouses to aim instead of:
<!--quoteo(post=2042506:date=Dec 9 2012, 07:03 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 9 2012, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's not being ignorant, he's saying that if people don't know how to play the game the game won't be balanced for those games because it isn't functioning how it should. He's saying there needs to be something helping players learn more than there is right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At some point, saying 'learn to play the game better' becomes equivalent to saying 'grow a extra leg so you can use these three legged trousers I invented'.
A portion of the community will make whatever adjustments are required to make the game work properly, but another, larger portion of the community will have limitations.
If you make a game where all players are expected to dump hundreds of hours into it to be able to play it properly, that's equivalent to making a game where you're expected to spend hundreds of hours wrangling with bugs and crashes and other technical issues, to find a way to make it work on your PC.
It's fine and dandy if you happen to like the work you're expected to do in order to play the game, but people are not unreasonable for disliking it, and it makes little sense as a developer to expect a significant number of people to go through that.
<!--quoteo(post=2042978:date=Dec 10 2012, 09:03 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Dec 10 2012, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It did have a cool feature where you if you could sneak into the enemy Comm station, you could just shoot the enemy Commander in the back of the head and completely shut down their infrastructure for as long as it took to get someone back in that seat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was going to say that this would be an interesting feature, but then I realized that killing the alien com doesn't do anything because the alien com doesn't do anything, and killing the marine com is only good if they have beacon but not phase.
<!--quoteo(post=2042984:date=Dec 10 2012, 06:14 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 10 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At some point, saying 'learn to play the game better' becomes equivalent to saying 'grow a extra leg so you can use these three legged trousers I invented'.
A portion of the community will make whatever adjustments are required to make the game work properly, but another, larger portion of the community will have limitations.
If you make a game where all players are expected to dump hundreds of hours into it to be able to play it properly, that's equivalent to making a game where you're expected to spend hundreds of hours wrangling with bugs and crashes and other technical issues, to find a way to make it work on your PC.
It's fine and dandy if you happen to like the work you're expected to do in order to play the game, but people are not unreasonable for disliking it, and it makes little sense as a developer to expect a significant number of people to go through that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing wrong with a learning curve. Dedicated people get better the more time they invest. What good could come from limiting creative thinking, cool use of strategy and individual skill?
Comments
Please, oh please tell me you're gonna tell the competitive players to "learn to play" because I really want to see the end result of that.
In actual fact? Marines win more often in PUB games than in competitive games, based on the states from NS2stats.org - so what does that tell you?
It tells me that this isn't a "learn to play" situation at all.
If the performance improved significantly, I think we would see things swing back into the middle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This really sums up how I'm feeling too. If marines split up anywhere we get overrun!
I also feel like marine weapons have ZERO stopping power! Aliens have SO MANY OPTIONS FOR KILLING US! Even the shotgun usually takes multiple shots to kill. There is nothing (weapons wise) that can be done against an Onos in your base, other than collectively shooting untill you all get killed multiple times, at which point the onos is now dead, but so is more than half of your base! You then have to rebuild just in time for another wave of onos to sweep through!
Still, I love the game, and I will admit I don't feel like I'm even a "Good" player yet.
That is an awesome idea!
The last thing marine comms on pub servers want to do: build ARCs.
Please, oh please tell me you're gonna tell the competitive players to "learn to play" because I really want to see the end result of that.
In actual fact? Marines win more often in PUB games than in competitive games, based on the states from NS2stats.org - so what does that tell you?
It tells me that this isn't a "learn to play" situation at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol @ all the wiry haters. OP claims <b>95% alien wins</b> (basically saying 100% with -5% to make it sound like a "considered" winrate), and this clearly isn't a L2P issue? You arn't seriously telling me you believe alien win rates are anywhere close to this? God forbid someone with a heap of gameplay experience, great gamesense, and fps skill to boot has a solid idea of the current state of balance.
NS2stats stating that marines win more often in pub games than comp only shows me that the OP is just stating a premature opinion based on very limited anecdotal evidence. It's immediately obvious if you actually read the entire OP. That is L2P. *And i mean that in the 'don't give up, keep playing and get better to win' way. Not the 'you suck nooblet' way.
From the competitive matches I've been watching so far, there's alien bias. Fana tells me as teams get more balanced at the elite levels, extremely skilled marines are able to make fewer mistakes and secure more victories however.
Right now the game feels like it's the marines game to win or lose. The more mistakes they make, the more they sabotage their potential. The aliens don't have to do as many things 'right', If the comm is decent and they derp around sufficiently, as long as the marines make mistakes, aliens will win. The aliens can't seem to force the win right now, they can just hope the marines sabotage themselves enough that their team comes out on top.
I think one major change that's needed is that skulks need to be able to parasite mines down in MUCH fewer shots. Mines are absurd for the first 10 minutes of the game in their current form.
This !
Marines do not realise that they are <u> free</u> units who respawn even faster than aliens and can be as devastating to buildings as skulks.
Also,I'd say that its really easy to lock marines into the base early game,since alien comm can build all by himself,while all players rush to base forcing beacons and locking marines in the base since they cant exit to make resource nodes.
Marines do not realise that they are <u> free</u> units who respawn even faster than aliens and can be as devastating to buildings as skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But camping helps my KDR dude. Waiting for skulks to attack enables me to "|_æ|_Z P\/\/NæD!!!1oneone" them all the way to ready room so I can talk ###### and have my glee.
Also, what are these "building" things? I thought this was all about shooting (free) skulks. If you kill 20 skulks with 20:0 KDR you win, amirite?
P.S. In all seriousness, I think most people are actually learning how to play, at least on the servers I play on, so this is less and less of an issue.
In my observation, the game is slowly returning to the enjoyable games like in the beta where most if not all understood what they were doing.
There are still confused people here and there, but it's nowere near as bad as it was just 2-3 weeks ago.
I'll expand.
It doesn't say if a game was fun.
It doesn't say if the game was a legit win (team with no commander, base rush, F4s).
It's one thing to consider, but far from the whole picture.
Also. Stats from 3 weeks ago or more aren't worth much. Hell, this game is so poorly explained to players, that every week, players get better and better (or worse and worse depending on the retention percentage of players). This makes it so that every week the general population of players learns new strats and get better with X or Y aspect of the game. Thus one week you could see 50/50 wins, and the next 60/40. This is a huge difference. Anything above 5% is very noticeable.
The other important aspect is who you play with. Pubs aren't really pubs. Most people will play with a limited subset of the total player base.
Most players will play at similar hours on similar servers (time zone, life style and ping account for this).
Thus, while you might play with better players (more knowledge, better skills...), another person might play with a very different pool of players.
I've been on servers where I won 5 games in a row has aliens, and lost 5 in a row has marines. This makes 10 games in a row lost for marines. With most players changing teams frequently. While this is not necessarily proof of team imbalance, if it happens often enough it does give the impression of imbalance. Which is sufficient to merit a serious investigation.
There is one certainty in my opinion. UWE cannot approve of a "learn 2 play" strategy to address this issue. The game's learning curve is too steep and the game mechanics often too obscure and ambiguous (not to mention they keep changing in patches).
For certain players, that will be enough for them to quit. This is bad for everyone because multiplayer games only survive with a plentiful and diverse player base.
Learn 2 play is thus unacceptable. Players do need to get better at the game, but that's UWEs job to make the game easy to learn (I didn't say easy to play btw, big difference).
Also, imagining a great world where every player knows everything about NS2, I am certain that the win/loss percentage would not be 50/50. It is impossible. It could be close enough though, like 52/48 or something. But I highly doubt that that would be the case. If it were, UWE would deserve a lot of money for being so good at game design. With asymetrical gameplay and asymetrical maps, it's impossible that every map would see perfect win loss.
And on a final note, I am certain that some maps feature a much better or much worse win/loss ration. Thus, if you played 100 games on the most balanced map, you might find the game to be balanced. But if you played on ns_imbalancemuch, maybe you'll have a different impression.
Granted, Marine commander require a lot more skill to be on par with an alien commander. As a marine commander you have, at least in public games, sometimes up to 12 people you have to supply with medpacks, ammo packs, give orders, etc. At the same time, as an alien comm you don't need nearly as much micro/macro management.
I believe this is the core issue of why marines aren't winning as much. People are too familiar with solo-rushing and winning in numorous low-skill/high gain-games that have hit the market in recent years. Games that don't punish players [enough] for mistakes.
I pub-marines would stick together in small groups, hitting multiple places at once, and get a good enough commander that can keep up with giving 10~ people medpacks/ammo and still be on top of teching we'd see a lot more marine wins.
I think that If you would dumb down the marine side of the game any team that is actually competent would stomp any alien team with ease. Hopefully this won't happen and they will increase the skill requirement for the alien commander.
On a personal note, I think that late game marines are a bit more powerful than late game aliens.
And I still believe that L2P is the real issue.
EDIT: I will say though that if at least 1/3 of your team can't aim moderately well, you're screwed and you have no chance of winning no matter what.
EDIT:<b> I will say though that if at least 1/3 of your team can't aim moderately well, you're screwed and you have no chance of winning no matter what.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which takes us back to the hitreg/performance problems. :)
I still don't understand the performance issues people get, disable occlusion and it's all good. Hitreg is a bit messed up right now though yeah so hopefully they fix it up next patch.
I'm sorry to tell you, but most people with a regular job just don't have the time to learn a game where you loose (or win without you bringing any contribution to it except for meatshield) for 150 hrs before you begin to have fun.
I myself talked 3 friends who really are core gamers (>1 year of WoW playtime, lvl 70 corporal BF3 etc) into buying NS2. None of them really played NS1 so it was a new concept to them. All but one abandoned the game within the first 24 hours because their perception of the game was that it is so unbalanced and badly designed that there is no point at all in playing it (I was playing with them and based on these games they played I can't really blame them).
So you can of course say these people did not spend enough time with the game etc. And I certainly agree partially.
But you have to realize that if players that are willing to spend thousands of hours in one single game react this way there is something wrong.
So I think at the moment the most critical problems for marines are:
- Performance. I don't have any issues but my computer is quite good. But yesterday I played on a 24p server. While I had good fps, the server just coul not handle hiverush situations where 10 marines stormed a hive. This resulted in a very bad server tick rate which is kind of similar to low fps. As marine I could not hit ###### anymore, but as Alien it was alright because I just jumped in the middle of the marine pack in an epileptic fashion lading quite some bites while the marines could not hit me because of the bad lag.
- Marine Comms need to be far better than alien comms. THIS may be one of the situations where L2P is not the worst argument.
- Map design: I think most of the maps are harder to win for marines than for aliens. This often is because of the locations of the rts being too far away from marinestart. A pub team will often struggle to secure a hive and 2-3 rts.
- Power Nodes: Power Nodes just downright rape pub marine teams. It is REALLY hard for casual players to constantly check all important power nodes. Especially in a 10v10 game where even while a big fight is taking place in one location there are always enough skulks to attack a hive power node.
I think the power node mechanic for techpoints is very unfair for marines. If you want to kill an alien hive, you have to shoot the actual thing. If you want to kill a marine tech point you just eat the power node. (my favourite example: Sorting hive on mineshaft...)
Again because it's really important to me: Power nodes ruin the game as they give the marine team, which relies on multiple buildings, an instagib Achilles' heel. In my opinion this isreally really bad game design.
- Not weldable Vents: Good example: Veil. If aliens get bile before marines get gls nanogrid can not be held be marines. Weldable vent could really help here.
- People learning to play Alien. Believe it or not, but L2P also applies for aliens. When I hear people talk here I get the impression, they often apply L2P only on marine skills, while they assume that the Alien skill stays the same. But especially within the last 2 weeks I met more and more Fades that had adepted to the NS2 Fade playstyle and were really raping average skilled pub marine teams. Also the number of skulks that are attacking in a straight line decreases.
Not really. I'm guessing most people have occlusion off anyway, cause it's so resource hungry. It's not so much a settings issue. The problem is something inherent to the game. Early game I can keep up a solid 65 fps, but as the game progresses performance goes downhill until I'm struggling to maintain 30 fps in the late game skirmishes. And it's not just me.
build 233 - nerf attack speed/damage of kharaa
nerv aliens. buff rines
- have you researched mines?
- has everybody used their resources on mines?
- have you remembered to never build sentries because they are a waste of resources?
- are your dudes building extractors?
- are your dudes destroying harvestors?
- did you manage to get upgrades and shotguns before fades?
- did you secure tech node locations with phase gates?
- did you build a proto and researched jetpacks, using all the extra resources on ARCs?
- did you build enough ARCs?
- are you sure you built enough ARCs?
- You can NEVER have enough ARCs
- SHOOT THE ONOS, SHOOT IT
thank me later
- have you researched mines?
- has everybody used their resources on mines?
- have you remembered to never build sentries because they are a waste of resources?
- are your dudes building extractors?
- are your dudes destroying harvestors?
- did you manage to get upgrades and shotguns before fades?
- did you secure tech node locations with phase gates?
- did you build a proto and researched jetpacks, using all the extra resources on ARCs?
- did you build enough ARCs?
- are you sure you built enough ARCs?
- You can NEVER have enough ARCs
- SHOOT THE ONOS, SHOOT IT
thank me later<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's right you know.
I think you should add "shoot the gorge" before that ^^
<!--quoteo(post=2042598:date=Dec 9 2012, 10:57 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 9 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And doors and vents need to be weldable to more easily secure a location without having to invest a ton in barely effective sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this !!!
Its so ridicoulus when my average marine team pushes on and nobody notices the giggling skulk sitting in the vent waiting for them to leave to take down the phasegate -.-
Also, phasegates are the most ridicoulus thing i ever saw.
They go down like nothing and they should be renamed into AFTS. (Alien Food Transportation System)
1) I have two devices which inflict damage at range and are worthless in melee! (And an axe, which I quickly learned might as well be healing aliens)
2) My enemies are almost exclusively melee oriented!
1+2= Turtling plays up <i>my</i> strengths, forces him to use his weaknesses, and thus should be very effective.
RTs don't factor into it. P/Tres don't factor into it. Map control doesn't factor into it. I can't understand at all how any of you think it is reasonable to assume marines should take 1+2 above and come up with "CHARGE (tactically)!" It's incredibly counter intuitive, unless you already know the game is built in such a way that defending is never the right strategy.
Edit: Contrast with new alien players
1) I'm melee, so melee that I don't actually have to hit my target, I just have to be close and hold mouse 1
2) My enemies have guns, but I have absolutely superior local mobility! (until jetpacks take that advantage away)
Of course they draw the conclusion that they're supposed to be on the offensive. They have no other option.
1) I have two devices which inflict damage at range and are worthless in melee! (And an axe, which I quickly learned might as well be healing aliens)
2) My enemies are almost exclusively melee oriented!
1+2= Turtling plays up <i>my</i> strengths, forces him to use his weaknesses, and thus should be very effective.
RTs don't factor into it. P/Tres don't factor into it. Map control doesn't factor into it. I can't understand at all how any of you think it is reasonable to assume marines should take 1+2 above and come up with "CHARGE (tactically)!" It's incredibly counter intuitive, unless you already know the game is built in such a way that defending is never the right strategy.
Edit: Contrast with new alien players
1) I'm melee, so melee that I don't actually have to hit my target, I just have to be close and hold mouse 1
2) My enemies have guns, but I have absolutely superior local mobility! (until jetpacks take that advantage away)
Of course they draw the conclusion that they're supposed to be on the offensive. They have no other option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yuuup. That's what I think, too.
<!--quoteo(post=2041594:date=Dec 7 2012, 10:05 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Dec 7 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It probably has to do with the game design being incredibly counter-intuitive.
Marines are good at defending and Aliens are good at attacking. So <i>obviously</i> the right way to play is for Marines to constantly be on offensive and Aliens to constantly be on defense.
It should be the other way around. Aliens get map control and Marines have to turtle on a couple of res nodes. It even makes more sense from a lore perspective, since the maps are supposed to be Marines responding to Kharaa attacks. So it would make sense for them to already have an established foothold while the Marines invade, then hold them off long enough to build up the resources to start a siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines need a good com to win or at least players, that know without order, that they need to harass alien economy.
The aliens (while - on the first glance - not as easy to play as marines) can even win with a bad com. The aliens aren't such dependent to an experienced com. After new players got their first knowledge of how the alien team works, it is easier to win for them. While marines need much more knowledge to win, but are easy to pickup at first.
How to form this insulting "L2P"-argument into something constructive?
If we don't make it easier for marines to learn how to win, the game will lose more players. One only loses that much before he gives up.
So we need to create a stronger com-dependence for the alien team or weaken that reliance at the marine team.
OR
We need to make defensive marine-play more win-viable. (That means full teched aliens are no longer at an advantage against full teched marines.)
OR
We need to find a way, that will teach new players from the first minutes, that they need to play aggressive (vs alien economy) as marines.
NS2 is a complex game, but it is really unbelievable how many players don't understand, that you need to damage the enemy economy instead of just racking kills up.
Especially strange because people had no trouble with Nuclear Dawn, which is another RTS/FPS hybrid.
ND was ruined by Sentries, though. You have to be an anti-structure Exo or Sabo in order to do anything to them (And they are spammed EVERYWHERE), but any anti-structure loadout only has enough ammo to take down 1-2 Sentries at most. So the sentries get built faster than your team can destroy them. The game basically ends once the enemy has sentries in your base to spawn kill everyone.
It did have a cool feature where you if you could sneak into the enemy Comm station, you could just shoot the enemy Commander in the back of the head and completely shut down their infrastructure for as long as it took to get someone back in that seat.
- have you researched mines?
- has everybody used their resources on mines?
- have you remembered to never build sentries because they are a waste of resources?
- are your dudes building extractors?
- are your dudes destroying harvestors?
- did you manage to get upgrades and shotguns before fades?
- did you secure tech node locations with phase gates?
- did you build a proto and researched jetpacks, using all the extra resources on ARCs?
- did you build enough ARCs?
- are you sure you built enough ARCs?
- You can NEVER have enough ARCs
- SHOOT THE ONOS, SHOOT IT
thank me later<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're missing the part where you check to make sure your marines are using mouses to aim instead of:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FUwAENrrAg" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FUwAENrrAg</a>
At some point, saying 'learn to play the game better' becomes equivalent to saying 'grow a extra leg so you can use these three legged trousers I invented'.
A portion of the community will make whatever adjustments are required to make the game work properly, but another, larger portion of the community will have limitations.
If you make a game where all players are expected to dump hundreds of hours into it to be able to play it properly, that's equivalent to making a game where you're expected to spend hundreds of hours wrangling with bugs and crashes and other technical issues, to find a way to make it work on your PC.
It's fine and dandy if you happen to like the work you're expected to do in order to play the game, but people are not unreasonable for disliking it, and it makes little sense as a developer to expect a significant number of people to go through that.
I was going to say that this would be an interesting feature, but then I realized that killing the alien com doesn't do anything because the alien com doesn't do anything, and killing the marine com is only good if they have beacon but not phase.
A portion of the community will make whatever adjustments are required to make the game work properly, but another, larger portion of the community will have limitations.
If you make a game where all players are expected to dump hundreds of hours into it to be able to play it properly, that's equivalent to making a game where you're expected to spend hundreds of hours wrangling with bugs and crashes and other technical issues, to find a way to make it work on your PC.
It's fine and dandy if you happen to like the work you're expected to do in order to play the game, but people are not unreasonable for disliking it, and it makes little sense as a developer to expect a significant number of people to go through that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing wrong with a learning curve. Dedicated people get better the more time they invest. What good could come from limiting creative thinking, cool use of strategy and individual skill?