You should play on KKG, despite that being a very large server (12 vs 12) it's mostly well balanced if not a bit swinging towards marines.
So i'd say, like the second post in this thread, L2P issue. (more so coordination, it is CRUICAL)
Since EU servers mostly have non-English speaking players, and most of them are too shy to try, it locks up team communication so much. I noticed this issue on EU servers, and just don't play on them anymore, NA servers are much more alive in terms of communication. Which like i said before is crucial to team success.
First of all, I'm typically an alien and often the alien commander, so this is not a biased view.
Marines have a high-risk situation on building and protecting their res towers. They have to be there in person, survive any ambushes, and then leave the RT unprotected to get more res. Aliens can easily grab res. The problem is that marines simply cannot protect their res intake without ironically spending a lot of res with turrets which are easily counterable.
I believe the simple solution is to, due to having the "cost" of having to manually build RTs and then leaving them generally unprotected due to the "slowness" of marines going back to them, have marine resource towers with an option to be upgraded to be electrified. It'd be enough to delay aliens to allow marines to defend them. Now before you think, "Oh noes, then why bother touching them?" remember that taking out the power in the room would disable such electrification.
Aliens are almost all offensive. Marines need better defensive capabilities on their resource towers since they not able to expand as easily as aliens.
The alien mindset should be, "Do not let marines take a foothold or res towers." The game is about taking territory and controlling it. Aliens expand quickly. The marines have to push back that territory and hold it. It's like moving a front line forward to victory. Right now, marines simply cannot do that without dedicating an entire base to it....and even that goes down fast with Gorge bilebomb. Aliens travel so fast to react to losing a RT or attacking an RT that the only viable way to protect resource towers as a marine is to blow turrets on each one or keep a marine there...but even a solo marine would die quickly and turrets are very easy to take down.
Options? Outside of hitreg fixes: 1. Allow turrets to be able to hold off loners easier 2. Allow marine res tower electrification (take out power to remove it or just chomp the RT and take damage)
<!--quoteo(post=2043022:date=Dec 10 2012, 01:22 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 10 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have a high-risk situation on building and protecting their res towers. They have to be there in person, survive any ambushes, and then leave the RT unprotected to get more res. Aliens can easily grab res. The problem is that marines simply cannot protect their res intake without ironically spending a lot of res with turrets which are easily counterable.
I believe the simple solution is to, due to having the "cost" of having to manually build RTs and then leaving them generally unprotected due to the "slowness" of marines going back to them, I think that marine resource towers should have an option to be upgraded to be electrified. It'd be enough to delay aliens to allow marines to defend them. Now before you think, "Oh noes, then why bother touching them?" remember that taking out the power in the room would disable such electrification.
Aliens are almost all offensive. Marines need better defensive capabilities on their resource towers since they not able to expand as easily as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next you would be asking for the ability to electrify powernodes.
There are no such thing as high risk marine buildings when ghost buildings give you back full res and you can recycle them for res back.
<!--quoteo(post=2043022:date=Dec 10 2012, 08:22 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 10 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have a high-risk situation on building and protecting their res towers. They have to be there in person, survive any ambushes, and then leave the RT unprotected to get more res. Aliens can easily grab res. The problem is that marines simply cannot protect their res intake without ironically spending a lot of res with turrets which are easily counterable.
I believe the simple solution is to, due to having the "cost" of having to manually build RTs and then leaving them generally unprotected due to the "slowness" of marines going back to them, have marine resource towers with an option to be upgraded to be electrified. It'd be enough to delay aliens to allow marines to defend them. Now before you think, "Oh noes, then why bother touching them?" remember that taking out the power in the room would disable such electrification.
Aliens are almost all offensive. Marines need better defensive capabilities on their resource towers since they not able to expand as easily as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, this is exactly the failure marines do to lose. You never build sentries for a RT. If a RT is under attack and you can't get a marine there in time, recycle it. Than you send a marine there to build a new one.
Also electrify would absolutely overpower the marines. The aliens need to draw attention from the frontline to stop marines playing aggressive. And marines need to use the time-gaps, (when they don't need to defend their territory) to attack the alien economy.
Natural Selection 2 has two teams. Those teams aren't "Aliens" and "Marines". They're Attackers and Losers.
If Marines don't attack and try to viciously defend every RT without weighing the benefits against making attacks on alien RTs and Upgrades, they lose.
<!--quoteo(post=2043026:date=Dec 10 2012, 12:26 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Dec 10 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next you would be asking for the ability to electrify powernodes.
There are no such thing as high risk marine buildings when ghost buildings give you back full res and you can recycle them for res back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misread what I said. I said it's high-risk to build and protect RTs. I didn't say they were high-risk buildings. A marine has to be out there and build it which is prime pickings to die. As for protecting them, they have to hoof it over to the RT and likely be taken out mid-way. As an alien commander, the moment I see an RT being hit, I say I need someone to protect it and I have someone there within mere seconds. As a marine, there is little time to get there in time unless you have JPers...in which case you're probably winning anyway. Marines have a lot of risk in going out to build lone RTs or protect them. Also, where on earth did you read that I was expecting power nodes to be electrified? That'd be a terrible idea.
<!--quoteo(post=2043031:date=Dec 10 2012, 08:35 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 10 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have a lot of risk in going out to build lone RTs or protect them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. The risk is very little. If the marine has an LMG, he loses nothing. Also you could use some locations to cut the aliens off from some parts of the map. Sure, that isn't 100%. But when one alien comes through, you just recycle and rebuild the RTs later. This one alien is missing on the front line to stop your push. If you play aggressive enough, aliens have little time to harass your RTs.
Just realize, that playing defensive will cost you the victory. If you play aggressive, the aliens need to defend and can't attack you. The one occasional harasser should be no match for an equally skilled marine.
<!--quoteo(post=2043037:date=Dec 10 2012, 12:42 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 10 2012, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. The risk is very little. If the marine has an LMG, he loses nothing. Also you could use the map to cut the aliens off from some parts of the map. Sure, that isn't 100% but when one alien comes through, you just recycle and rebuild the RTs later. This one alien is missing defending your push. If you play aggressive enough, aliens have little time to harass your RTs.
Just realize, that playing defensive will cost you the victory. If you play aggressive, the aliens need to defend and can't attack you. The one occasional harasser should be no match for an equally skilled marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lost time is a risk. Also the knowledge that you are likely to die causes many players to not bother. How many times have people gotten yelled at for running off "rambo" alone? Having a group of marines moving together from RT to RT just isn't viable, either.
Now, I do agree with your second statement. I play as an alien commander often, so as a marine, I often IGNORE purchasing goods and I "rambo" alone and take out cyst chains (not one at a time...but skipping 3 or 4 and killing a cyst and moving to another 3 or 4. Going one at a time gives way too much warning). In the process I also bug the heck out of the alien commander by taking out RTs. The problem is due to the "stay together" mindset of marines, most players will not do this.
Now, at a COMPETITIVE level, of course marines start to have an advantage there because with absolute teamwork, marines are superior, but I'm talking about overall...and like it or not, this game is not 100% competitive. They are also more aware that a single marine can be a big pain to the aliens. Most players, however, will not do this because it's not "fun". You don't get new toys, you just run off to die, respawn, run off to the, respawn...and sure you're doing "damage" to the enemy economy but it's a sacrificial gameplay aspect.
The thing is that it's just far easier for aliens to have "no worries" than aliens. An alien being in unsafe territory is no biggy. They can escape easily. They can run in and defend/attack RTs with little risk. A marine being in unsafe territory is almost certain death. Aliens taking out marine res towers is easy. Marines, however, take a lot of TIME to defend res towers, and the longer that TIME takes, the more risk they are at dying and losing even more time.
If resource towers could be electrified, it could help make up for that high-risk of losing time. It would at least give the marines a chance to react to the attack. Aliens can just simply wall off RT areas with hydras, cogs, and if the alien commander wishes with such easily accessible res, whips and such.
I agree, that aliens are better in getting RTs down than marines. But this is absolutely ok in an asymmetric game. With electrify you will just make skulks a whole bit useless and give marines much more resources.
You are right, that marines are much more powerful in comp-games than on a pup-game. But you can't solve this problem by shifting the balance for both game types. Electrify would overpower marine teams that have good teamwork and know what to do.
The solution can only be to make marines easier to learn. We need more incentives for players to see how they win games as marines. It should be easier to learn the behavior (mostly: play aggressive against alien economy) to win.
<!--quoteo(post=2043029:date=Dec 10 2012, 07:32 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 10 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection 2 has two teams. Those teams aren't "Aliens" and "Marines". They're Attackers and Losers.
If Marines don't attack and try to viciously defend every RT without weighing the benefits against making attacks on alien RTs and Upgrades, they lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. I would say though, many of the games I played over the weekend didn't allow for the marines to get their feet under them let alone start an attack anywhere. Aliens who have no job in the early game have very little difficulty shutting down marine teams that try to expand in 2 places at once if the spawns are close enough, and on maps like veil and docking the aliens are simply able to expand faster in the early game while knowing exactly where to hit marines every time which makes it even harder for the marines as aliens play a script while marines are forced into reactions which can preclude significant offense.
The strongest marine showings seemed to be as a result of good marine coms and stacked teams getting results because stacking overcomes the main marine problem of poorly coordinated actions. Also, ARC's hitting nano from E/W junctions are tough nuts to crack.
So aside from the technical limitations, L2P seems the only option that players have absent some balance alterations from UWE to account for low FPS. NeoRussia's post has some good advice in it, but thats more the commander side of things. What can you get out there in the form of information to marine grunts that will improve their performance with the least amount of sarcasm?
1. Buy mines first? 2. Buy welders, weld marines? 3. Learn to corner and cover your buddies... don't run off alone unless directed by the com? 4. Stay in base until directed by the comm at the start of the round? 5. Build power nodes before anything else in a room?
Also, does anyone think it would be a good idea to have the marine commander have the ability to use a kind of priority list for players so that when they spawn or look at the map, the commanders priorities are displayed. The waypoint system is pretty good, but it can get pretty abstract when the game shifts and various people are calling out developments on the fly. At the start of a round, you get a pop up that says something like "MISSION: Destroy the Alien hive!", I'm thinking something like that where the commander could select a marine, call up a UI that has simple orders like "Attack/Defend/Build...." + "Room Name/Structure/Other_Player". Then when a unit asks for orders, you can either tell them or give them an order that remains until the commander cancels it. Also, if the player doesn't want the order, feels it's irrelevant, or just wants to do something else, they can request a new order with the commo rose function and the commander could change it as the situation merits.
It might be more cumbersome, but it might help focus players who need constant direction without overwhelming the commander who's busy managing building placement and med-pack spam. I'm just spitballing, but I would like some function that lets me tell a marine player to "Do this, and keep doing this until I give you a different order"
Also, forming squads from the command chair via hot-keys (Ctrl+[num]) to group marines together in a way similar to how BF3 works would help to focus a marine on what his squad is doing rather than freelancing on spawn each time... die, look at green-waypoint that directs you back to your living squad mates.
<!--quoteo(post=2043059:date=Dec 10 2012, 03:02 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 10 2012, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good point. I would say though, many of the games I played over the weekend didn't allow for the marines to get their feet under them let alone start an attack anywhere. Aliens who have no job in the early game have very little difficulty shutting down marine teams that try to expand in 2 places at once if the spawns are close enough, and on maps like veil and docking the aliens are simply able to expand faster in the early game while knowing exactly where to hit marines every time which makes it even harder for the marines as aliens play a script while marines are forced into reactions which can preclude significant offense.
The strongest marine showings seemed to be as a result of good marine coms and stacked teams getting results because stacking overcomes the main marine problem of poorly coordinated actions. Also, ARC's hitting nano from E/W junctions are tough nuts to crack.
So aside from the technical limitations, L2P seems the only option that players have absent some balance alterations from UWE to account for low FPS. NeoRussia's post has some good advice in it, but thats more the commander side of things. What can you get out there in the form of information to marine grunts that will improve their performance with the least amount of sarcasm?
1. Buy mines first? 2. Buy welders, weld marines? 3. Learn to corner and cover your buddies... don't run off alone unless directed by the com? 4. Stay in base until directed by the comm at the start of the round? 5. Build power nodes before anything else in a room?
Also, does anyone think it would be a good idea to have the marine commander have the ability to use a kind of priority list for players so that when they spawn or look at the map, the commanders priorities are displayed. The waypoint system is pretty good, but it can get pretty abstract when the game shifts and various people are calling out developments on the fly. At the start of a round, you get a pop up that says something like "MISSION: Destroy the Alien hive!", I'm thinking something like that where the commander could select a marine, call up a UI that has simple orders like "Attack/Defend/Build...." + "Room Name/Structure/Other_Player". Then when a unit asks for orders, you can either tell them or give them an order that remains until the commander cancels it. Also, if the player doesn't want the order, feels it's irrelevant, or just wants to do something else, they can request a new order with the commo rose function and the commander could change it as the situation merits.
It might be more cumbersome, but it might help focus players who need constant direction without overwhelming the commander who's busy managing building placement and med-pack spam. I'm just spitballing, but I would like some function that lets me tell a marine player to "Do this, and keep doing this until I give you a different order"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, many games do go this way.
But the game is reliant on the mentality of the marines. If even a single marine is diving into the aliens base and cutting key cysts, killing RTs, and assassinating upgrades, it dramatically shifts the way the game plays.
Often bad aliens over-commit to defending those things (just like marines do) which results in your 1 marine building an RT elsewhere on the map facing <i>zero</i> enemies instead of 2-3 skulks. So even if you die while only doing trivial damage to an upgrade, you've come out ahead. And then that one marine, having finished his building and becoming bored, will push out of base to attack.
The L2P advice given is solid, of course, with the exception of "stay in base" which is not always wise. If you have marines pushing two directions out of base and there is no other way in, you're completely fine, for example. It's when there's a 3rd path and you can only send 1 marine that way, and that marine gets slammed with 3-4 skulks that people need to watch for that (because he may not have a mic) and react smartly (by returning to base and helping him against the inevitable base rush)
<!--quoteo(post=2043098:date=Dec 10 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 10 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They have that, it's called F4<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the current model, F4 is forcing a disadvantage on your team while a surrender vote would be a broader team agreement. I've had people F4 in matches when the team lost a double res node. The moment it went down GG GAME OVER F4. While those two guys sat there afk, our team ended up winning anyway, as the enemy team was ONLY concentrating on keeping double at all costs.
<!--quoteo(post=2043100:date=Dec 11 2012, 07:17 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 11 2012, 07:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the current model, F4 is forcing a disadvantage on your team while a surrender vote would be a broader team agreement. I've had people F4 in matches when the team lost a double res node. The moment it went down GG GAME OVER F4. While those two guys sat there afk, our team ended up winning anyway, as the enemy team was ONLY concentrating on keeping double at all costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right but at the same time, if people refuse to all F4, and only half of them do, what makes you think they'd all agree to surrender instead?
RE: Surrender buttons... right now marine frustration (at least based on what I saw over the weekend) was killing games at 5 minutes. People just either F4 when they see cysts encroaching the main base with zero f***'s given or the marine commander starts recycling when he gets angry at marine performance.
No patience, no trying anything novel... just quick and painful matches over and over again. It was kinda sad at the end there.
There's no need for a surrender button, people are already voting with F4 and recycle... and a surrender button would add to the level of hopelessness that frustrated teams have.
Not to mention the number of times some defeatist on my team starts telling everyone the game is over only to have our team rally to a victory (usually as aliens)... if they started getting people to vote surrender and cost us a salvageable match, I'd quit the game altogether.
<!--quoteo(post=2043031:date=Dec 10 2012, 06:35 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 10 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You misread what I said. I said it's high-risk to build and protect RTs. I didn't say they were high-risk buildings. A marine has to be out there and build it which is prime pickings to die. As for protecting them, they have to hoof it over to the RT and likely be taken out mid-way. As an alien commander, the moment I see an RT being hit, I say I need someone to protect it and I have someone there within mere seconds. As a marine, there is little time to get there in time unless you have JPers...in which case you're probably winning anyway. Marines have a lot of risk in going out to build lone RTs or protect them. Also, where on earth did you read that I was expecting power nodes to be electrified? That'd be a terrible idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh this is kinda where L2P come in. As a marine comm you need to be keeping an eye on your RTs when ones attacked you need to see if it's possible to send a marine to save it (i.e. someone is close enough) and then if it's worth sending a marine to save it (sometimes it's better to keep them on the front line) and then finally if it's best to recycle and claw back some res or to let it be destroyed thus delaying that skulk.
Secondly you don't need to place an RT in every room your marines move into. It's much better to have a few RT's that you can easily defend and then to concentrate on denying the aliens from getting the rest. An extractor has to be up for a minute just to pay for itself before it starts turning a profit. A skulk can chew an extractor down from full health in about 30-40 seconds, factor in the delay it takes for the RT and power to be built and sometimes it's just not worth the risk.
<!--quoteo(post=2043017:date=Dec 10 2012, 01:17 PM:name=Salt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salt @ Dec 10 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should play on KKG, despite that being a very large server (12 vs 12) it's mostly well balanced if not a bit swinging towards marines.
So i'd say, like the second post in this thread, L2P issue. (more so coordination, it is CRUICAL)
Since EU servers mostly have non-English speaking players, and most of them are too shy to try, it locks up team communication so much. I noticed this issue on EU servers, and just don't play on them anymore, NA servers are much more alive in terms of communication. Which like i said before is crucial to team success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The larger a server gets the more it will naturally shift towards marines. Especially because there's quite a few good players on KKG, so the "learn to play" thing isn't as much of an issue. So yeah, that server seems quite a bit more balanced than most of the rest of NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2043177:date=Dec 10 2012, 03:10 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 10 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The larger a server gets the more it will naturally shift towards marines. Especially because there's quite a few good players on KKG, so the "learn to play" thing isn't as much of an issue. So yeah, that server seems quite a bit more balanced than most of the rest of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think bigger servers favor marines more. Because sometimes i play there and get plenty of good players on my team, but sometimes it's reverse, and i just see aliens doing the most stupidest stuff you can imagine.
Point being that, this game is very skill oriented as a base. You have to play as a team, not as an individual being part of a group.
Players might spin all sorts of weird stories around the fact that they lost, but ultimately, 99% of the time, it's either theirs, or the commander, or their teamplay's fault. Not some mechanic that is allegedly OP.
Thank god UWE knows this and only look at real issues in play like the 6 minute Onos, Which made a lot of sense to damp that down. The egg spawning i haven't heard an argument for but i'm sure it will be justifiable in one way or another. These threads are just aimed at trying to make UWE feel bad, when really all it takes is a bit of reading, a bit of asking. and you'll get help. I've heard people say the helpfullness of this community is dropping, But i honestly think this is because threads like these, just provoke unwanted frustration and they just don't care anymore.
the truth is that most players don't have professional level hand-eye coordination. it doesn't matter how much they learn - the devs have to choose between one-sided pro-games and one-sided pub games
either professional-level aiming skills will give marines a huge edge or the lack of those skills will give aliens an advantage
unless they replace skulks with something that requires LMG-like aim, this will always happen
<!--quoteo(post=2043123:date=Dec 10 2012, 04:00 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 10 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RE: Surrender buttons... right now marine frustration (at least based on what I saw over the weekend) was killing games at 5 minutes. People just either F4 when they see cysts encroaching the main base with zero f***'s given or the marine commander starts recycling when he gets angry at marine performance.
No patience, no trying anything novel... just quick and painful matches over and over again. It was kinda sad at the end there.
There's no need for a surrender button, people are already voting with F4 and recycle... and a surrender button would add to the level of hopelessness that frustrated teams have.
Not to mention the number of times some defeatist on my team starts telling everyone the game is over only to have our team rally to a victory (usually as aliens)... if they started getting people to vote surrender and cost us a salvageable match, I'd quit the game altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, the argument for being able to Surrender Vote is more that you get to calmly point out that the game is over -- while still playing.
The alternative situation (ie what we have now) is about 2 teammates F4ing and the game is ruined anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2043189:date=Dec 11 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Salt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salt @ Dec 11 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These threads are just aimed at trying to make UWE feel bad, when really all it takes is a bit of reading, a bit of asking. and you'll get help. I've heard people say the helpfullness of this community is dropping, But i honestly think this is because threads like these, just provoke unwanted frustration and they just don't care anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread isn't intended to make anyone feel bad. On the contrary, I'm sharing my personal experience and inviting others to do the same... in this case, its concerning the heavily ones sided games I've witnessed 2 weekends in a row now. Its so bad I'm off to play Aftermath (which is awesome by the way) for a bit until the pull of NS2 drags me back.
NS2 is great fun... its a challenge unlike any other shooter out there. But right not it seems that Marines have a real uphill struggle against half decent aliens. This may be L2P or it may be technical or some combination of the two... the goal is to try to find solutions that are workable NOW rather than wait for the community to "level up". For example, if framerates are lower than 30 fps for most NS2 players, then lower ROF weapons will help marines out over super-high-rof ones. If the engine just won't run 30+ fps on the majority of computers out there consistently, then it might be a good idea for UWE to take that into consideration for balance purposes. I'm not trying to make them feel bad, I'm trying to help.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Reason #1 for marines losing in pub games is passive gameplay. Tell your team to constantly attack alien harvesters instead of camping / building turret farms / go build 1 rt with 5 marines at the opposite side of the mal / axe cysts for minutes and so on. Marines are supposed to attack in this game and if they don't, they should lose. Unfortunetaly, the game doesn't tell that newbies, so we have to. Reason #2: use your minimap. Lack of aim or skill is not the issue.
<!--quoteo(post=2043723:date=Dec 11 2012, 10:46 AM:name=blind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blind @ Dec 11 2012, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reason #1 for marines losing in pub games is passive gameplay. Tell your team to constantly attack alien harvesters instead of camping / building turret farms / go build 1 rt with 5 marines at the opposite side of the mal / axe cysts for minutes and so on. Marines are supposed to attack in this game and if they don't, they should lose. Unfortunetaly, the game doesn't tell that newbies, so we have to. Reason #2: use your minimap. Lack of aim or skill is not the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the game is different when skulks are winning so many fights. when marines are good, they can win 1v1 / 2v2. and with meds they can even take on greater numbers of skulks.
when marines can't aim, they don't win those fights. instead of staying alive long enough to get 3 extractors up, they die before getting one up.
when your team can aim, you can pressure AND build extractors. when you can't aim, you can only choose 1 if you're lucky, but the more likely scenario is failing at both
simple fact is that marines are at a huge disadvantage when aliens get 4 (or more) harvesters uncontested while marines cannot even defend 3, and this happens all the time
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Biz, read again. When you win roughly 50% of the fights, you still lose with passive gameplay / wasting time (and should). Most pub games i play is exactly this scenario.
<!--quoteo(post=2043940:date=Dec 11 2012, 11:14 PM:name=nezz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nezz @ Dec 11 2012, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it fair, running at roughly 50% win rate for both teams judging the teams are "evenly match skill level"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I love this whole "evenly matched" skill level argument. Arbitrary naming of playerbase for a game mathematically worked out to be exactly correct. Can anyone else see the problem with this?
Comments
So i'd say, like the second post in this thread, L2P issue. (more so coordination, it is CRUICAL)
Since EU servers mostly have non-English speaking players, and most of them are too shy to try, it locks up team communication so much. I noticed this issue on EU servers, and just don't play on them anymore, NA servers are much more alive in terms of communication. Which like i said before is crucial to team success.
- have you researched mines?
- has everybody used their resources on mines?
- have you remembered to never build sentries because they are a waste of resources?
- are your dudes building extractors?
- are your dudes destroying harvestors?
- did you manage to get upgrades and shotguns before fades?
- did you secure tech node locations with phase gates?
- did you build a proto and researched jetpacks, using all the extra resources on ARCs?
- did you build enough ARCs?
- are you sure you built enough ARCs?
- You can NEVER have enough ARCs
- SHOOT THE ONOS, SHOOT IT
thank me later<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
arcs and macs are much more competent than your average marine
performance needs to be optimized (which i'm sure it is being worked on)
new, unbiased maps. just port dust2 over
ADD A ###### SURRENDER BUTTON
Marines have a high-risk situation on building and protecting their res towers. They have to be there in person, survive any ambushes, and then leave the RT unprotected to get more res. Aliens can easily grab res. The problem is that marines simply cannot protect their res intake without ironically spending a lot of res with turrets which are easily counterable.
I believe the simple solution is to, due to having the "cost" of having to manually build RTs and then leaving them generally unprotected due to the "slowness" of marines going back to them, have marine resource towers with an option to be upgraded to be electrified. It'd be enough to delay aliens to allow marines to defend them. Now before you think, "Oh noes, then why bother touching them?" remember that taking out the power in the room would disable such electrification.
Aliens are almost all offensive. Marines need better defensive capabilities on their resource towers since they not able to expand as easily as aliens.
The alien mindset should be, "Do not let marines take a foothold or res towers." The game is about taking territory and controlling it. Aliens expand quickly. The marines have to push back that territory and hold it. It's like moving a front line forward to victory. Right now, marines simply cannot do that without dedicating an entire base to it....and even that goes down fast with Gorge bilebomb. Aliens travel so fast to react to losing a RT or attacking an RT that the only viable way to protect resource towers as a marine is to blow turrets on each one or keep a marine there...but even a solo marine would die quickly and turrets are very easy to take down.
Options? Outside of hitreg fixes:
1. Allow turrets to be able to hold off loners easier
2. Allow marine res tower electrification (take out power to remove it or just chomp the RT and take damage)
I see all these aliens splattering green, but not taking damage. If I aim ahead of the alien i do damage. Started with this patch only. /fail.
I believe the simple solution is to, due to having the "cost" of having to manually build RTs and then leaving them generally unprotected due to the "slowness" of marines going back to them, I think that marine resource towers should have an option to be upgraded to be electrified. It'd be enough to delay aliens to allow marines to defend them. Now before you think, "Oh noes, then why bother touching them?" remember that taking out the power in the room would disable such electrification.
Aliens are almost all offensive. Marines need better defensive capabilities on their resource towers since they not able to expand as easily as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next you would be asking for the ability to electrify powernodes.
There are no such thing as high risk marine buildings when ghost buildings give you back full res and you can recycle them for res back.
I believe the simple solution is to, due to having the "cost" of having to manually build RTs and then leaving them generally unprotected due to the "slowness" of marines going back to them, have marine resource towers with an option to be upgraded to be electrified. It'd be enough to delay aliens to allow marines to defend them. Now before you think, "Oh noes, then why bother touching them?" remember that taking out the power in the room would disable such electrification.
Aliens are almost all offensive. Marines need better defensive capabilities on their resource towers since they not able to expand as easily as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, this is exactly the failure marines do to lose. You never build sentries for a RT. If a RT is under attack and you can't get a marine there in time, recycle it. Than you send a marine there to build a new one.
Also electrify would absolutely overpower the marines. The aliens need to draw attention from the frontline to stop marines playing aggressive. And marines need to use the time-gaps, (when they don't need to defend their territory) to attack the alien economy.
If Marines don't attack and try to viciously defend every RT without weighing the benefits against making attacks on alien RTs and Upgrades, they lose.
There are no such thing as high risk marine buildings when ghost buildings give you back full res and you can recycle them for res back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misread what I said. I said it's high-risk to build and protect RTs. I didn't say they were high-risk buildings. A marine has to be out there and build it which is prime pickings to die. As for protecting them, they have to hoof it over to the RT and likely be taken out mid-way. As an alien commander, the moment I see an RT being hit, I say I need someone to protect it and I have someone there within mere seconds. As a marine, there is little time to get there in time unless you have JPers...in which case you're probably winning anyway. Marines have a lot of risk in going out to build lone RTs or protect them. Also, where on earth did you read that I was expecting power nodes to be electrified? That'd be a terrible idea.
No. The risk is very little. If the marine has an LMG, he loses nothing. Also you could use some locations to cut the aliens off from some parts of the map. Sure, that isn't 100%. But when one alien comes through, you just recycle and rebuild the RTs later. This one alien is missing on the front line to stop your push. If you play aggressive enough, aliens have little time to harass your RTs.
Just realize, that playing defensive will cost you the victory. If you play aggressive, the aliens need to defend and can't attack you. The one occasional harasser should be no match for an equally skilled marine.
Just realize, that playing defensive will cost you the victory. If you play aggressive, the aliens need to defend and can't attack you. The one occasional harasser should be no match for an equally skilled marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lost time is a risk. Also the knowledge that you are likely to die causes many players to not bother. How many times have people gotten yelled at for running off "rambo" alone? Having a group of marines moving together from RT to RT just isn't viable, either.
Now, I do agree with your second statement. I play as an alien commander often, so as a marine, I often IGNORE purchasing goods and I "rambo" alone and take out cyst chains (not one at a time...but skipping 3 or 4 and killing a cyst and moving to another 3 or 4. Going one at a time gives way too much warning). In the process I also bug the heck out of the alien commander by taking out RTs. The problem is due to the "stay together" mindset of marines, most players will not do this.
Now, at a COMPETITIVE level, of course marines start to have an advantage there because with absolute teamwork, marines are superior, but I'm talking about overall...and like it or not, this game is not 100% competitive. They are also more aware that a single marine can be a big pain to the aliens. Most players, however, will not do this because it's not "fun". You don't get new toys, you just run off to die, respawn, run off to the, respawn...and sure you're doing "damage" to the enemy economy but it's a sacrificial gameplay aspect.
The thing is that it's just far easier for aliens to have "no worries" than aliens. An alien being in unsafe territory is no biggy. They can escape easily. They can run in and defend/attack RTs with little risk. A marine being in unsafe territory is almost certain death. Aliens taking out marine res towers is easy. Marines, however, take a lot of TIME to defend res towers, and the longer that TIME takes, the more risk they are at dying and losing even more time.
If resource towers could be electrified, it could help make up for that high-risk of losing time. It would at least give the marines a chance to react to the attack. Aliens can just simply wall off RT areas with hydras, cogs, and if the alien commander wishes with such easily accessible res, whips and such.
You are right, that marines are much more powerful in comp-games than on a pup-game. But you can't solve this problem by shifting the balance for both game types. Electrify would overpower marine teams that have good teamwork and know what to do.
The solution can only be to make marines easier to learn. We need more incentives for players to see how they win games as marines. It should be easier to learn the behavior (mostly: play aggressive against alien economy) to win.
If Marines don't attack and try to viciously defend every RT without weighing the benefits against making attacks on alien RTs and Upgrades, they lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. I would say though, many of the games I played over the weekend didn't allow for the marines to get their feet under them let alone start an attack anywhere. Aliens who have no job in the early game have very little difficulty shutting down marine teams that try to expand in 2 places at once if the spawns are close enough, and on maps like veil and docking the aliens are simply able to expand faster in the early game while knowing exactly where to hit marines every time which makes it even harder for the marines as aliens play a script while marines are forced into reactions which can preclude significant offense.
The strongest marine showings seemed to be as a result of good marine coms and stacked teams getting results because stacking overcomes the main marine problem of poorly coordinated actions. Also, ARC's hitting nano from E/W junctions are tough nuts to crack.
So aside from the technical limitations, L2P seems the only option that players have absent some balance alterations from UWE to account for low FPS. NeoRussia's post has some good advice in it, but thats more the commander side of things. What can you get out there in the form of information to marine grunts that will improve their performance with the least amount of sarcasm?
1. Buy mines first?
2. Buy welders, weld marines?
3. Learn to corner and cover your buddies... don't run off alone unless directed by the com?
4. Stay in base until directed by the comm at the start of the round?
5. Build power nodes before anything else in a room?
Also, does anyone think it would be a good idea to have the marine commander have the ability to use a kind of priority list for players so that when they spawn or look at the map, the commanders priorities are displayed. The waypoint system is pretty good, but it can get pretty abstract when the game shifts and various people are calling out developments on the fly. At the start of a round, you get a pop up that says something like "MISSION: Destroy the Alien hive!", I'm thinking something like that where the commander could select a marine, call up a UI that has simple orders like "Attack/Defend/Build...." + "Room Name/Structure/Other_Player". Then when a unit asks for orders, you can either tell them or give them an order that remains until the commander cancels it. Also, if the player doesn't want the order, feels it's irrelevant, or just wants to do something else, they can request a new order with the commo rose function and the commander could change it as the situation merits.
It might be more cumbersome, but it might help focus players who need constant direction without overwhelming the commander who's busy managing building placement and med-pack spam. I'm just spitballing, but I would like some function that lets me tell a marine player to "Do this, and keep doing this until I give you a different order"
Also, forming squads from the command chair via hot-keys (Ctrl+[num]) to group marines together in a way similar to how BF3 works would help to focus a marine on what his squad is doing rather than freelancing on spawn each time... die, look at green-waypoint that directs you back to your living squad mates.
The strongest marine showings seemed to be as a result of good marine coms and stacked teams getting results because stacking overcomes the main marine problem of poorly coordinated actions. Also, ARC's hitting nano from E/W junctions are tough nuts to crack.
So aside from the technical limitations, L2P seems the only option that players have absent some balance alterations from UWE to account for low FPS. NeoRussia's post has some good advice in it, but thats more the commander side of things. What can you get out there in the form of information to marine grunts that will improve their performance with the least amount of sarcasm?
1. Buy mines first?
2. Buy welders, weld marines?
3. Learn to corner and cover your buddies... don't run off alone unless directed by the com?
4. Stay in base until directed by the comm at the start of the round?
5. Build power nodes before anything else in a room?
Also, does anyone think it would be a good idea to have the marine commander have the ability to use a kind of priority list for players so that when they spawn or look at the map, the commanders priorities are displayed. The waypoint system is pretty good, but it can get pretty abstract when the game shifts and various people are calling out developments on the fly. At the start of a round, you get a pop up that says something like "MISSION: Destroy the Alien hive!", I'm thinking something like that where the commander could select a marine, call up a UI that has simple orders like "Attack/Defend/Build...." + "Room Name/Structure/Other_Player". Then when a unit asks for orders, you can either tell them or give them an order that remains until the commander cancels it. Also, if the player doesn't want the order, feels it's irrelevant, or just wants to do something else, they can request a new order with the commo rose function and the commander could change it as the situation merits.
It might be more cumbersome, but it might help focus players who need constant direction without overwhelming the commander who's busy managing building placement and med-pack spam. I'm just spitballing, but I would like some function that lets me tell a marine player to "Do this, and keep doing this until I give you a different order"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, many games do go this way.
But the game is reliant on the mentality of the marines. If even a single marine is diving into the aliens base and cutting key cysts, killing RTs, and assassinating upgrades, it dramatically shifts the way the game plays.
Often bad aliens over-commit to defending those things (just like marines do) which results in your 1 marine building an RT elsewhere on the map facing <i>zero</i> enemies instead of 2-3 skulks. So even if you die while only doing trivial damage to an upgrade, you've come out ahead. And then that one marine, having finished his building and becoming bored, will push out of base to attack.
The L2P advice given is solid, of course, with the exception of "stay in base" which is not always wise. If you have marines pushing two directions out of base and there is no other way in, you're completely fine, for example. It's when there's a 3rd path and you can only send 1 marine that way, and that marine gets slammed with 3-4 skulks that people need to watch for that (because he may not have a mic) and react smartly (by returning to base and helping him against the inevitable base rush)
ADD A ###### SURRENDER BUTTON<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have that, it's called F4
In the current model, F4 is forcing a disadvantage on your team while a surrender vote would be a broader team agreement. I've had people F4 in matches when the team lost a double res node. The moment it went down GG GAME OVER F4. While those two guys sat there afk, our team ended up winning anyway, as the enemy team was ONLY concentrating on keeping double at all costs.
You're right but at the same time, if people refuse to all F4, and only half of them do, what makes you think they'd all agree to surrender instead?
No patience, no trying anything novel... just quick and painful matches over and over again. It was kinda sad at the end there.
There's no need for a surrender button, people are already voting with F4 and recycle... and a surrender button would add to the level of hopelessness that frustrated teams have.
Not to mention the number of times some defeatist on my team starts telling everyone the game is over only to have our team rally to a victory (usually as aliens)... if they started getting people to vote surrender and cost us a salvageable match, I'd quit the game altogether.
Yeh this is kinda where L2P come in. As a marine comm you need to be keeping an eye on your RTs when ones attacked you need to see if it's possible to send a marine to save it (i.e. someone is close enough) and then if it's worth sending a marine to save it (sometimes it's better to keep them on the front line) and then finally if it's best to recycle and claw back some res or to let it be destroyed thus delaying that skulk.
Secondly you don't need to place an RT in every room your marines move into. It's much better to have a few RT's that you can easily defend and then to concentrate on denying the aliens from getting the rest. An extractor has to be up for a minute just to pay for itself before it starts turning a profit. A skulk can chew an extractor down from full health in about 30-40 seconds, factor in the delay it takes for the RT and power to be built and sometimes it's just not worth the risk.
So i'd say, like the second post in this thread, L2P issue. (more so coordination, it is CRUICAL)
Since EU servers mostly have non-English speaking players, and most of them are too shy to try, it locks up team communication so much. I noticed this issue on EU servers, and just don't play on them anymore, NA servers are much more alive in terms of communication. Which like i said before is crucial to team success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The larger a server gets the more it will naturally shift towards marines. Especially because there's quite a few good players on KKG, so the "learn to play" thing isn't as much of an issue. So yeah, that server seems quite a bit more balanced than most of the rest of NS2.
i don't think bigger servers favor marines more. Because sometimes i play there and get plenty of good players on my team, but sometimes it's reverse, and i just see aliens doing the most stupidest stuff you can imagine.
Point being that, this game is very skill oriented as a base.
You have to play as a team, not as an individual being part of a group.
Players might spin all sorts of weird stories around the fact that they lost, but ultimately, 99% of the time, it's either theirs, or the commander, or their teamplay's fault. Not some mechanic that is allegedly OP.
Thank god UWE knows this and only look at real issues in play like the 6 minute Onos, Which made a lot of sense to damp that down.
The egg spawning i haven't heard an argument for but i'm sure it will be justifiable in one way or another.
These threads are just aimed at trying to make UWE feel bad, when really all it takes is a bit of reading, a bit of asking. and you'll get help.
I've heard people say the helpfullness of this community is dropping, But i honestly think this is because threads like these, just provoke unwanted frustration and they just don't care anymore.
either professional-level aiming skills will give marines a huge edge
or the lack of those skills will give aliens an advantage
unless they replace skulks with something that requires LMG-like aim, this will always happen
No patience, no trying anything novel... just quick and painful matches over and over again. It was kinda sad at the end there.
There's no need for a surrender button, people are already voting with F4 and recycle... and a surrender button would add to the level of hopelessness that frustrated teams have.
Not to mention the number of times some defeatist on my team starts telling everyone the game is over only to have our team rally to a victory (usually as aliens)... if they started getting people to vote surrender and cost us a salvageable match, I'd quit the game altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, the argument for being able to Surrender Vote is more that you get to calmly point out that the game is over -- while still playing.
The alternative situation (ie what we have now) is about 2 teammates F4ing and the game is ruined anyway.
I've heard people say the helpfullness of this community is dropping, But i honestly think this is because threads like these, just provoke unwanted frustration and they just don't care anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread isn't intended to make anyone feel bad. On the contrary, I'm sharing my personal experience and inviting others to do the same... in this case, its concerning the heavily ones sided games I've witnessed 2 weekends in a row now. Its so bad I'm off to play Aftermath (which is awesome by the way) for a bit until the pull of NS2 drags me back.
NS2 is great fun... its a challenge unlike any other shooter out there. But right not it seems that Marines have a real uphill struggle against half decent aliens. This may be L2P or it may be technical or some combination of the two... the goal is to try to find solutions that are workable NOW rather than wait for the community to "level up". For example, if framerates are lower than 30 fps for most NS2 players, then lower ROF weapons will help marines out over super-high-rof ones. If the engine just won't run 30+ fps on the majority of computers out there consistently, then it might be a good idea for UWE to take that into consideration for balance purposes. I'm not trying to make them feel bad, I'm trying to help.
Reason #2: use your minimap.
Lack of aim or skill is not the issue.
Reason #2: use your minimap.
Lack of aim or skill is not the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the game is different when skulks are winning so many fights. when marines are good, they can win 1v1 / 2v2. and with meds they can even take on greater numbers of skulks.
when marines can't aim, they don't win those fights. instead of staying alive long enough to get 3 extractors up, they die before getting one up.
when your team can aim, you can pressure AND build extractors. when you can't aim, you can only choose 1 if you're lucky, but the more likely scenario is failing at both
simple fact is that marines are at a huge disadvantage when aliens get 4 (or more) harvesters uncontested while marines cannot even defend 3, and this happens all the time
Yeah I love this whole "evenly matched" skill level argument. Arbitrary naming of playerbase for a game mathematically worked out to be exactly correct. Can anyone else see the problem with this?