So like, the problem is lerk accuracy over range, not damage to buildings.
When i argued for more accurate spikes way back when the lerk spread was huge, i didn't mean long range roost sniping. It's abusable and pretty skilless whether against buildings or not. It should have been an accurate medium range ability that has high diminishing effect over range, so you force lerks to fly to be effective instead of roosting in some random dark corner out of draw distance. *edit* Map design is not at fault here. It's pretty unreasonable to expect mappers to spend alot of time specifically designing around a badly designed mechanic.
Basically, this has been a case of UWE 'overbuffing' without really understanding the ramifications nor what they were trying to accomplish. I say 'overbuffing' because its generally not something that greatly effects balance in comp 6 v 6, but it is something that causes imbalances in lower skill play because of an abnormally high effectiveness to skill ratio. It's a skill floor raiser, just like the hand holding collisions-be-gone face gliding.
Imbalances aside, roost sniping isn't exactly very engaging both for the sniper and the dude getting sniped.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Gorge Spit: 50 sec. 60 sec when considering energy starvation. <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Lerk Spikes: 47 seconds. No energy starvation.
So lerk spike DPS on buildings is pretty similar to gorge spit pre-energy starvation. Only 22% faster in killing a power node when competing with an energy starved spit gorge. I would call that pretty ineffective already . :|
Is it really 47 seconds? Sure feels like a lot longer..
And I'm pretty sure you can slap an Armory in front of the power node in Docking quite easily which forces the Lerk to either sit there wasting time on the Armory or move inside where he'll be greeted by either players or sentries.
<!--quoteo(post=2042663:date=Dec 10 2012, 04:09 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 10 2012, 04:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So like, the problem is lerk accuracy over range, not damage to buildings. ... It's pretty unreasonable to expect mappers to spend alot of time specifically designing around a badly designed mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1).Well,docking's powernode is really close to the window...But sniping that happens at crevice is where all the annoyance at. 2).Pretty much it.There are loads of places on different maps that allow powernode sniping,too much effort for UWE to fix them all.
<!--quoteo(post=2042409:date=Dec 9 2012, 07:53 AM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making lerk spikes do less damage to buildings would remove the problem.Lerk is not meant to be a sniper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already do less damage to buildings. It takes for EVER to snipe down a power node or a structure with spikes, and a lerk who is doing that is wasting his time, which is fine.
Docking is a little annoying, because it's not just "any" node but it's the starting marine power node, and it can be hit from pretty far away, but this is easily solved by welding the power once in a while. It's only a problem on that map, and it will probably be fixed sometime. Even if it's not, it's not exactly game-breaking.
if you can't kill a gorge in a 1v1 then you have issues.
although, op also has issues if he thinks that ranged damage of lerk is so imba - since assault rifle deals about 100% more damage to buildings than lerk spikes.
This is just picking at straws. What other use do lerks have if not be a nuisance? That's probably the ONLY reason they get picked up sometimes.
You have to be really good to kill marines with it. And even if you've got the aptitude, if the marine has just a little bit of aim, they can take a lerk down with two shotgun blasts or a well aimed LMG clip.
<!--quoteo(post=2042409:date=Dec 9 2012, 09:53 AM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 9 2012, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Title pretty much says it all.
There are a lot of maps,where a single lerk can be a real headache,since he can sit in a safe spot and plink at powernode from a safe distance.Docking is the most shining example here.Its not gamebreaking,its just annoying.
Making lerk spikes do less damage to buildings would remove the problem.Lerk is not meant to be a sniper.
Are you against it or do you support it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no problem. The lerk is a harasser. What he can do, is harass. Yes, he can also harass power nodes. And if you ignore its harassing, it can end bad.
It is neither overpowered, nor is it to fast to counter it. It is a very valid harass-tactic of a harass-class.
The pistol usually works really well for stationary lerks. Shoot all ten rounds and then switch to your rifle and shoot some more. If it isn't dead, it will be quite injured and probably won't be back for a little while.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=2042424:date=Dec 10 2012, 02:25 AM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Dec 10 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fix marines being able to snipe rts and hives from the other side of the room because it's really annoying<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Volc, thats a map design issue.
<!--quoteo(post=2043260:date=Dec 11 2012, 11:33 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Dec 11 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Volc, thats a map design issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> refer to what was said after that
<!--quoteo(post=2042424:date=Dec 10 2012, 02:25 AM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Dec 10 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fix marines being able to snipe rts and hives from the other side of the room because it's really annoying<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
When 2 marines can no longer snipe an RT from a safe vantage point faster than 2 lerks can snipe a sentry battery. Your suggestion is worth merit.
Lerks sniping power nodes has been annoying as hell for me, but I think it's largely just a map design issue. It makes no sense to me for one particular attack not to affect buildings. I think it's "dock"...? Has one particularly annoying spot where a Lerk can snipe the power node through a window from a long distance away. I've seen it happening as marine and been completely unable to see the Lerk without running out into the landing pad area.
<!--quoteo(post=2043293:date=Dec 11 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Dec 11 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerks sniping power nodes has been annoying as hell for me, but I think it's largely just a map design issue. It makes no sense to me for one particular attack not to affect buildings. I think it's "dock"...? Has one particularly annoying spot where a Lerk can snipe the power node through a window from a long distance away. I've seen it happening as marine and been completely unable to see the Lerk without running out into the landing pad area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a pain to get into position to be able to snipe from anywhere passed just the window. If a lerk can find that little nook and the marines don't both to investigate... kudo's to the lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=2043304:date=Dec 11 2012, 12:49 PM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Dec 11 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a pain to get into position to be able to snipe from anywhere passed just the window. If a lerk can find that little nook and the marines don't both to investigate... kudo's to the lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It can also be countered by putting an armoury there
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited December 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2042583:date=Dec 9 2012, 03:17 PM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Dec 9 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just ignore the lerk, and get someone to weld the node every 10 minutes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a Lerk player that frequently uses this strategy, I can attest to how strong one occasional welder is as a counter.
<!--quoteo(post=2043032:date=Dec 10 2012, 01:37 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 10 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no problem. The lerk is a harasser. What he can do, is harass. Yes, he can also harass power nodes. And if you ignore its harassing, it can end bad.
It is neither overpowered, nor is it to fast to counter it. It is a very valid harass-tactic of a harass-class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd argue he's actually your best direct combat unit before onos come out. I'm much more happy to have a lerk with me as a skulk if I'm going to bum rush 5 marines attacking my hive than if I have a fade with me. All aliens have a harrassy style of play, but the lerk doesn't lose his effectiveness against larger groups of marines nearly as quickly as all other lifeforms do.
I still think OP's complaint is ridiculous though. It's no more cogent than complaining that marines have LMG's and that's just innately unfair.
I agree, make lerkspikes ineffective against power nodes. Flash up a big warning on screen such as "LEAVE POWER NODES ALONE AND KILL SOMETHING USEFUL" instead.
<!--quoteo(post=2042662:date=Dec 10 2012, 01:06 AM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Dec 10 2012, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Same could be said about the gl<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing to counter bile other than marines charging in to kill the gorge which likely won't happen anyway thanks to their decent HP pool, evasive and defensive playstyle and their retreat paths. GLs are countered by whips hardcore, usually just one whip. Forgot about those? Fades also pretty good if the GL is vulnerable.
I'll admit that this can be pretty annoying at times, especially on certain maps *cough*docking*cough*, but it seems like some minor changes to problem locations are all it takes to fix this.
Alternative solution: Remove spikes, have lerks start with spores, spores now damage everything. What could possibly go wrong?
<!--quoteo(post=2043759:date=Dec 11 2012, 10:41 PM:name=Toastie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toastie @ Dec 11 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alternative solution: Remove spikes, have lerks start with spores, spores now damage everything. What could possibly go wrong?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Natural Selection 2 ? :D
As I see,most of you are against it and its fine.Maybe I have to alter the question.As someone has said,lerks spikes are way too accurate at a distance,and they are suppoused to be used at mid range to damage before poison bite.What if we reduced lerk's range so it has to be decently close to structures to do any significant danage?By decently close I mean not suicidal range,but something that is dangerous enough.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited December 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2043930:date=Dec 11 2012, 03:04 PM:name=ComboBreaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ComboBreaker @ Dec 11 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I see,most of you are against it and its fine.Maybe I have to alter the question.As someone has said,lerks spikes are way too accurate at a distance,and they are suppoused to be used at mid range to damage before poison bite.What if we reduced lerk's range so it has to be decently close to structures to do any significant danage?By decently close I mean not suicidal range,but something that is dangerous enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Still no. Again, you're trying to balance for a problem that doesn't exist. This play style is already so easily counter by a single welder, and a couple occasional bullets at the Lerk. Also, a lerk CAN NOT rush in to a room with 5 marines, if the marines are any good, it will go down so quick. The only way to be truly effective as a lerk is to be an extreme harasser. Try to draw people to chase you when you hit powernodes to split up their team, try to snipe from the vents as they approach the hive, taking occasional bites if they're not looking, and when in direct combat, do everything you can to always have something between you and the marine... like in topo on veil, it works great to bite someone when they enter the room and then fly at the lower floor level around the edge so they can't shoot you and don't know where you'll come up, and typically waste a couple bullets on the structures before deciding to reload, which gives you the opportunity to fly in and attack again. Reducing their range further would be a BAD idea.
They should make it so that Lerk spikes deal 25% more damage to players than other targets. Good for fighting people, but they would be terrible at taking out a building unless you just sat there for like a minute and the enemy team did absolutely nothing to stop or kill you.
Comments
When i argued for more accurate spikes way back when the lerk spread was huge, i didn't mean long range roost sniping. It's abusable and pretty skilless whether against buildings or not. It should have been an accurate medium range ability that has high diminishing effect over range, so you force lerks to fly to be effective instead of roosting in some random dark corner out of draw distance. *edit* Map design is not at fault here. It's pretty unreasonable to expect mappers to spend alot of time specifically designing around a badly designed mechanic.
Basically, this has been a case of UWE 'overbuffing' without really understanding the ramifications nor what they were trying to accomplish. I say 'overbuffing' because its generally not something that greatly effects balance in comp 6 v 6, but it is something that causes imbalances in lower skill play because of an abnormally high effectiveness to skill ratio. It's a skill floor raiser, just like the hand holding collisions-be-gone face gliding.
Imbalances aside, roost sniping isn't exactly very engaging both for the sniper and the dude getting sniped.
TTK of powernode:
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Gorge Spit: 50 sec. 60 sec when considering energy starvation.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Lerk Spikes: 47 seconds. No energy starvation.
So lerk spike DPS on buildings is pretty similar to gorge spit pre-energy starvation. Only 22% faster in killing a power node when competing with an energy starved spit gorge. I would call that pretty ineffective already . :|
Gorges AoE damages multiple buildings. Welder repairs 1 building at a time.
And I'm pretty sure you can slap an Armory in front of the power node in Docking quite easily which forces the Lerk to either sit there wasting time on the Armory or move inside where he'll be greeted by either players or sentries.
...
It's pretty unreasonable to expect mappers to spend alot of time specifically designing around a badly designed mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1).Well,docking's powernode is really close to the window...But sniping that happens at crevice is where all the annoyance at.
2).Pretty much it.There are loads of places on different maps that allow powernode sniping,too much effort for UWE to fix them all.
They already do less damage to buildings. It takes for EVER to snipe down a power node or a structure with spikes, and a lerk who is doing that is wasting his time, which is fine.
Docking is a little annoying, because it's not just "any" node but it's the starting marine power node, and it can be hit from pretty far away, but this is easily solved by welding the power once in a while. It's only a problem on that map, and it will probably be fixed sometime. Even if it's not, it's not exactly game-breaking.
if you can't kill a gorge in a 1v1 then you have issues.
although, op also has issues if he thinks that ranged damage of lerk is so imba - since assault rifle deals about 100% more damage to buildings than lerk spikes.
Everytime one of those lerk ######s shows up and tries to destroy the powernode in the base i simply make 3 macs (usually i already have those)
3 macs repair themselves quicker than the lerk can damage them ;-)
What other use do lerks have if not be a nuisance?
That's probably the ONLY reason they get picked up sometimes.
You have to be really good to kill marines with it.
And even if you've got the aptitude, if the marine has just a little bit of aim, they can take a lerk down with two shotgun blasts or a well aimed LMG clip.
There are a lot of maps,where a single lerk can be a real headache,since he can sit in a safe spot and plink at powernode from a safe distance.Docking is the most shining example here.Its not gamebreaking,its just annoying.
Making lerk spikes do less damage to buildings would remove the problem.Lerk is not meant to be a sniper.
Are you against it or do you support it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just shoot the lerk
It is neither overpowered, nor is it to fast to counter it. It is a very valid harass-tactic of a harass-class.
Volc, thats a map design issue.
refer to what was said after that
This
When 2 marines can no longer snipe an RT from a safe vantage point faster than 2 lerks can snipe a sentry battery.
Your suggestion is worth merit.
I think it's "dock"...? Has one particularly annoying spot where a Lerk can snipe the power node through a window from a long distance away. I've seen it happening as marine and been completely unable to see the Lerk without running out into the landing pad area.
I think it's "dock"...? Has one particularly annoying spot where a Lerk can snipe the power node through a window from a long distance away. I've seen it happening as marine and been completely unable to see the Lerk without running out into the landing pad area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a pain to get into position to be able to snipe from anywhere passed just the window. If a lerk can find that little nook and the marines don't both to investigate... kudo's to the lerk.
It can also be countered by putting an armoury there
End of Post. If anything its a hinderance to the alien team doing this.
As a Lerk player that frequently uses this strategy, I can attest to how strong one occasional welder is as a counter.
It is neither overpowered, nor is it to fast to counter it. It is a very valid harass-tactic of a harass-class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd argue he's actually your best direct combat unit before onos come out. I'm much more happy to have a lerk with me as a skulk if I'm going to bum rush 5 marines attacking my hive than if I have a fade with me. All aliens have a harrassy style of play, but the lerk doesn't lose his effectiveness against larger groups of marines nearly as quickly as all other lifeforms do.
I still think OP's complaint is ridiculous though. It's no more cogent than complaining that marines have LMG's and that's just innately unfair.
There's nothing to counter bile other than marines charging in to kill the gorge which likely won't happen anyway thanks to their decent HP pool, evasive and defensive playstyle and their retreat paths. GLs are countered by whips hardcore, usually just one whip. Forgot about those? Fades also pretty good if the GL is vulnerable.
Alternative solution: Remove spikes, have lerks start with spores, spores now damage everything. What could possibly go wrong?
Natural Selection 2 ? :D
As I see,most of you are against it and its fine.Maybe I have to alter the question.As someone has said,lerks spikes are way too accurate at a distance,and they are suppoused to be used at mid range to damage before poison bite.What if we reduced lerk's range so it has to be decently close to structures to do any significant danage?By decently close I mean not suicidal range,but something that is dangerous enough.
Still no. Again, you're trying to balance for a problem that doesn't exist. This play style is already so easily counter by a single welder, and a couple occasional bullets at the Lerk. Also, a lerk CAN NOT rush in to a room with 5 marines, if the marines are any good, it will go down so quick. The only way to be truly effective as a lerk is to be an extreme harasser. Try to draw people to chase you when you hit powernodes to split up their team, try to snipe from the vents as they approach the hive, taking occasional bites if they're not looking, and when in direct combat, do everything you can to always have something between you and the marine... like in topo on veil, it works great to bite someone when they enter the room and then fly at the lower floor level around the edge so they can't shoot you and don't know where you'll come up, and typically waste a couple bullets on the structures before deciding to reload, which gives you the opportunity to fly in and attack again. Reducing their range further would be a BAD idea.
The game is exceptionally well balanced given the complex nature of the alien class, life is imperfect, learn to counter the aliens tallents, win!
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