Alien Hive Sight Discussion + Why we don't have a minimap
Chalarie
Join Date: 2012-05-03 Member: 151459Members
Join Date: 2012-05-03 Member: 151459Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Thoughts on changes?</div>I see a lot of people complaining about the lack of a minimap for aliens, which used to make perfect sense as to why it wasn't there, but then Hive Sight got overhauled...
For those of you who haven't played NS1 or early beta NS2, Hive Sight used to be the aliens 'Minimap'. When you would parasite a marine or structure, a red dot would show up on every players overlay, tracking their wherabouts. Sounds similar to what we have now? You are right, except for one seemingly small feature: <u><b>Parasiting Structures</b></u> Just like when parasiting a marine, all aliens would be able to see the location of these structures. For example, tagging the command chair in marine base would let all of the aliens know "Hey, here is the marine base!" If you haven't made the connection yet, this is what would serve as a compass. Using bits of map knowledge, you can connect these red dots to keep your bearings.
So, what happened? Well, it started with hives/command chairs being shown on the map with a red overlay. This, just like hive sight, was implemented to help new players keep their bearings and locate enemy bases. Fair enough, but not long after we got Hive Sight 2.0. This is the orange outline around parasited marines and friendlies. This brought a few major changes. One being the aforementioned exemption of structures (neither friendly OR enemy) showing up on hive sight. Two, the range on hive sight was massively lowered, so you would be lucky to see a parasited marine even if he was a single room over.
Now, I could ramble on about this for days, but what am I trying to point out with this? Well, mainly that it is time for Hive Sight to be overhauled again. The goals that hive sight should be able to accomplish are simple:
<ol type='1'><li>Orient alien players to places of action</li><li>Be aware of ally units around the map</li><li>Encouraging teamwork with a 'map' that requires community involvement to build and benefit from.</li></ol>
The limitations of the current hive sight do not accomplish these goals. I would like to stress the last point more, because as a part of assymetry, the aliens do not get a traditional 'minimap'. Instead, they have a collective knowledge of enemies and buildings, a <u><b>Hive Mind</b></u> of sorts.
So, here are my thoughts as to what needs to be done to improve hive sight:
-<u><b>Make parasite a more deadly fear among marines.</b></u>
This is a little ambiguous, so let me explain. Currently, being parasited means all aliens within a small radius can track your wherabouts. A simple trip back to the armory or single medpack will instantly cure you of this minor annoyance. (I cannot find the information right now, but I believe the parasite automatically goes away after a short duration) Parasite should be a big flashing target over your head because, well, that's what parasite is. Medpacks should not remove parasite, and only armories should remove parasite (if even that)
-<u><b>Increase the range aliens can see targets and allies</b></u>
Right now when parasiting a marine, you are lucky if you are able to see him coming from a room over. The range should be much higher. I do not think you should be able to see targets across the map, but at least let us be able to watch them through walls. This also applies to viewing allies, which would help for organizing attacks and finding support.
-<u><b>Let us parasite marine structures and view friendly structures through walls</b></u>
I have already outlined the advantages to being able to parasite structures again. It is great for new and veteran players to keep their bearings and organize attacks. Friendly structures too, to be able to know where safety is.
So these are my thoughts. There are some obvious issues with my proposed changes, such as added clutter and performance issues, but I do think they would be very beneficial to the game we all love. Please, let me know what you think regarding Hive Sight and Parasite.
For those of you who haven't played NS1 or early beta NS2, Hive Sight used to be the aliens 'Minimap'. When you would parasite a marine or structure, a red dot would show up on every players overlay, tracking their wherabouts. Sounds similar to what we have now? You are right, except for one seemingly small feature: <u><b>Parasiting Structures</b></u> Just like when parasiting a marine, all aliens would be able to see the location of these structures. For example, tagging the command chair in marine base would let all of the aliens know "Hey, here is the marine base!" If you haven't made the connection yet, this is what would serve as a compass. Using bits of map knowledge, you can connect these red dots to keep your bearings.
So, what happened? Well, it started with hives/command chairs being shown on the map with a red overlay. This, just like hive sight, was implemented to help new players keep their bearings and locate enemy bases. Fair enough, but not long after we got Hive Sight 2.0. This is the orange outline around parasited marines and friendlies. This brought a few major changes. One being the aforementioned exemption of structures (neither friendly OR enemy) showing up on hive sight. Two, the range on hive sight was massively lowered, so you would be lucky to see a parasited marine even if he was a single room over.
Now, I could ramble on about this for days, but what am I trying to point out with this? Well, mainly that it is time for Hive Sight to be overhauled again. The goals that hive sight should be able to accomplish are simple:
<ol type='1'><li>Orient alien players to places of action</li><li>Be aware of ally units around the map</li><li>Encouraging teamwork with a 'map' that requires community involvement to build and benefit from.</li></ol>
The limitations of the current hive sight do not accomplish these goals. I would like to stress the last point more, because as a part of assymetry, the aliens do not get a traditional 'minimap'. Instead, they have a collective knowledge of enemies and buildings, a <u><b>Hive Mind</b></u> of sorts.
So, here are my thoughts as to what needs to be done to improve hive sight:
-<u><b>Make parasite a more deadly fear among marines.</b></u>
This is a little ambiguous, so let me explain. Currently, being parasited means all aliens within a small radius can track your wherabouts. A simple trip back to the armory or single medpack will instantly cure you of this minor annoyance. (I cannot find the information right now, but I believe the parasite automatically goes away after a short duration) Parasite should be a big flashing target over your head because, well, that's what parasite is. Medpacks should not remove parasite, and only armories should remove parasite (if even that)
-<u><b>Increase the range aliens can see targets and allies</b></u>
Right now when parasiting a marine, you are lucky if you are able to see him coming from a room over. The range should be much higher. I do not think you should be able to see targets across the map, but at least let us be able to watch them through walls. This also applies to viewing allies, which would help for organizing attacks and finding support.
-<u><b>Let us parasite marine structures and view friendly structures through walls</b></u>
I have already outlined the advantages to being able to parasite structures again. It is great for new and veteran players to keep their bearings and organize attacks. Friendly structures too, to be able to know where safety is.
So these are my thoughts. There are some obvious issues with my proposed changes, such as added clutter and performance issues, but I do think they would be very beneficial to the game we all love. Please, let me know what you think regarding Hive Sight and Parasite.
Comments
I personally think it needs a distance buff, Medpacks shouldnt remove it. maybe once u return to full hp and armour fair enough... but not just a single medpack.
It is piss easy to parasite a marine, so how can you make something so easy so effective? That holds no notion of risk/reward.
And yes, I really wish it would work on buildings again, permanently. I turned off the newbie hints, which means that I don't get that red chair when I join a game, so I don't know where their base is unless I ask. It was also useful to tag extractors so others know they're there without spamming voice chat all the time.
And yes, hivesight in general needs more range. I don't think you can even see people in the same room in some of the larger ones, like crossroads. Even going back to a simple sprite for targets that are outside a certain range would be useful.
I don't remember that being a significant issue.
This is a little ambiguous, so let me explain. Currently, being parasited means all aliens within a small radius can track your wherabouts. A simple trip back to the armory or single medpack will instantly cure you of this minor annoyance. (I cannot find the information right now, but I believe the parasite automatically goes away after a short duration) Parasite should be a big flashing target over your head because, well, that's what parasite is. Medpacks should not remove parasite, and only armories should remove parasite (if even that)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't fully understand the complaint of the current parasite. it seems far superior to NS1 parasite because it allows you to set up engagements exactly the way you want to. you can tell what direction a marine is facing and even what weapon they're using.
I'm not in favor of making it harder to remove, because being parasited gives such a great combat advantage to aliens. it would be like playing with wallhacks constantly.
I tried to check NS1 but it appears that all servers have bots and force you to marines -_-
but I recall it being a yellow outline that updated roughly once per second? whereas in NS2 it's essentially like having wallhacks.
I would be fine with extending the timelimit or making it permanent, but the armory removal seems fine as long as parasite remains this effective.
keep in mind that "a simple trip" is not necessarily that simple, either... keep in mind that marine is making a decision to stop his push and go all the way back to base to remove a parasite, or proceed into an unfavorable engagement.
<!--quoteo(post=2043379:date=Dec 10 2012, 09:02 PM:name=Chalarie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chalarie @ Dec 10 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-<u><b>Increase the range aliens can see targets and allies</b></u>
Right now when parasiting a marine, you are lucky if you are able to see him coming from a room over. The range should be much higher. I do not think you should be able to see targets across the map, but at least let us be able to watch them through walls. This also applies to viewing allies, which would help for organizing attacks and finding support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely agree on this, it could possibly used in conjunction with <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=108510422&searchtext=" target="_blank">twiliteblue</a>'s dark vision mod to prevent clutter / confusion. at the very least, if a marine is visible in normal sight, they should be visible in alien vision as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2043379:date=Dec 10 2012, 09:02 PM:name=Chalarie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chalarie @ Dec 10 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-<u><b>Let us parasite marine structures and view friendly structures through walls</b></u>
I have already outlined the advantages to being able to parasite structures again. It is great for new and veteran players to keep their bearings and organize attacks. Friendly structures too, to be able to know where safety is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see how this is an issue in public games and it could help with organizing attacks. I wouldn't mind it as a cvar again for the purpose of avoiding clutter.
Instead of that you now have to run with a huge minimap clocking your view even more whenever you are not in battle. What an improvement
Now that I think about it, Parasite does provide a significantly larger advantage in combat than it did in NS1. Marine orientation is huge and allows you to remain out of their field of vision. I'm content with how UW has decided to balance this. Active communication (which includes listening as well) will provide awareness of marine structures and players. Buffing parasite to compensate for a lack of communication might result in a unfulfilling experience
I also miss the ns1 system. It was fast to deliver informations about where rines are and more importantly where the structure is that is under attack. One fast glance around and you knew it was the RT at the other side of the map. Now you spend way too much time on staring at the minimap in order to get the same picture that was offered to you in an intuitive, fast and atmospheric "alien" way.
Bring it back! :P
I miss the old beta hive sight as well. Parasiting structures was awesome. Once you para a sneak pg or a forward base, you could be sure that the team will attack it constantly. Now you say "pg in cross" and only 30% of the team read it and after a short time it is forgotten. As mentioned before, it was also good for coordinating attacks on RTs. Just give them the mark of death and they will go down.
I also miss the ns1 system. It was fast to deliver informations about where rines are and more importantly where the structure is that is under attack. One fast glance around and you knew it was the RT at the other side of the map. Now you spend way too much time on staring at the minimap in order to get the same picture that was offered to you in an intuitive, fast and atmospheric "alien" way.
Bring it back! :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This echos my feelings as well.
I am fine with Armories removing parasites; all a marine did in NS1 when they were parasited was run off to their death anyway so it never lasted that long. But I feel that buildings need to be valid targets for parasites. Perhaps allow welders to remove the parasite after being "repaired" for a percentage of their total hit points?
You can't have permanent knowledge of an enemies exact location as well as which direction he is facing, that is absurd. If it was made permanent it would just need to be changed to the boring round indicator then to balance. I prefer temporary superior information.
Not true, i use it to determine which side of a piece of cover from which to attack from. Although you can usually always hear a marine, unless you have surround sound, that doesn't give you enough info on the marine's activities.
Plus it's an easy way to whack up your score in the early game. Parasite 5 marines not only helps your friendly skulks know what's happening in a room they have only just approached on but you can look fancy ont he scoreboard as well.
Once you learned the colours, it was so useful. Can we at least have this back please?
@TimMC Yes! Currently at a simple glance it is pretty hard to distinguish allies from friendlies. Colors are wonderful, oh how I miss them...
Maybe something like allowing the parasite "sight" to see things around the marine, like a 10 meter radius. So you would parasite 1 marine in a group, and get the whole group of them popping up on the screen so you can react accordingly. Or you hit a building with it in the middle of a base so you can see where the important structures are and attack accordingly. Just make it so the marines that pop up from being near a marine affected by parasite aren't detailed so you can't make out things like their weapon or orientation. Leave everything else about parasite the same, or even reduce the duration a little to compensate.
As it stands, parasite has limited uses (most of which are for the early game), and aliens lack some sort of scan, which is exactly what this would give to them. I think it would make parasite a more attractive option for the later parts of the game as well, allowing the skulks to act as scouts/recon/pre-attack set up artists rather than just simple distractions or suicide bombers. This would give aliens a reason to say "Hey, one person stay as a skulk so we can know what kind of crap we're getting in to with our fade/gorge/onos push".
Yep, just another idea.
I would support a parasite which worked exactly like NS1's, including being sprite based.
I actually like this idea. Not the ammo count, because that doesn't make any sense, but how much health the marine has, for sure.
I would support a parasite which worked exactly like NS1's, including being sprite based.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find aiming a little to the left of centre somewhat helpful, From what i remember from ns1 it was similar aiming mechanics. I personally don't mind the way the parasite is set up apart from unable to parsite structures. Specially in conjunction with the use of drifters now which gives a good understanding of where the marines are heading.