Make Both Teams Work
SeeVee
Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165206Members
Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165206Members
Marine team has to work their arses off to get their resources and it takes far less effort to play on the alien team in comparison. Aliens do not have to build anything and that in itself is an unfair advantage over the Marines. I don't know how others feel about this but maybe having the Aliens connect cysts physically or have some sort of bio-generator node to create infestation that they have to build once the kahmander puts them down would be better.
Anyone else have a possible solution, agree or disagree?
Anyone else have a possible solution, agree or disagree?
Comments
Anyone else have a possible solution, agree or disagree?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kind of like how one team gets super accurate guns that kill from far away and more health and armor while the other team is equipped with melee weapons that take three hits to kill the target? That kind of unfair advantage?
Or maybe the kind of advantage where health, energy, and super armor can be attached to players while in a fight by the commander? Is it that kind of advantage?
I'd say the big disconnect is that the Aliens are weaker in absolutely every respect, but are far easier to play at a reasonably skilled level than the other team. Marines are designed around an all-knowing high skill player supporting the team as commander, while Aliens are designed around foot soldiers banging their subpar faces into the other team hoping for a higher kill percentage than the other team.
Aliens <i>do</i> expand faster than the Marines, but the things that they 'expand' are low-health structures that don't really have any direct effect on the Marines. There isn't anything stopping a Marine from crouching his way into Aliens territory to knife down those harvesters or upgrades. Hyper-aggressive play is rewarded the most in NS2, on both teams. Slowing down the spread of low-health, easily killed structures that do nothing is probably not going to make as big of a change in game play as you believe.
(Also, the Marines commander <i>can</i> produce an automated unit that will build his structures for him with zero Marines building. Is it a good idea to do so? Probably not. Is it <i>possible</i>? Yes it is. That doesn't even mention the use of automated units that can, in fact, shoot through walls to kill the only structures worth killing.)
Electrify would allow the powernode and the extractor to become electrified (say both for 10 Tres, researched at the powernode), and deal moderate damage to any attacking lifeforms (enough that a single skulk cannot take it down alone or without regen, but not enough to be a major threat to higer lifeforms). It would also destory cysts to prevent the Kahmm from growing whips next to the RT (so that it is at least required to have a player kill the RT)
It should only affect the power node and extractor as they are the only structures that don't have any abilities or interaction beyond building and repairing (Comm or player)
The idea being that
Marines: Harder to take territory, but easier to defend (electrify is cheaper than alien defenses)
Aliens: Easier to take territory, harder to defend (more expensive whips and hydras)
Electrify would allow the powernode and the extractor to become electrified (say both for 10 Tres, researched at the powernode), and deal moderate damage to any attacking lifeforms (enough that a single skulk cannot take it down alone or without regen, but not enough to be a major threat to higer lifeforms). It would also destory cysts to prevent the Kahmm from growing whips next to the RT (so that it is at least required to have a player kill the RT)
It should only affect the power node and extractor as they are the only structures that don't have any abilities or interaction beyond building and repairing (Comm or player)
The idea being that
Marines: Harder to take territory, but easier to defend (electrify is cheaper than alien defenses)
Aliens: Easier to take territory, harder to defend (more expensive whips and hydras)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm ok enough with the old-style electrify option from NS1, but applying the effect to both the power node and the resource node is obviously OP. It should also have no effect on cysts. Either that, or all those options can be added but make the electrify option cost something like 50-100 T.Res since apparently your electrify option should also render turrets completely useless while forcing the aliens to buy upgraded life forms for even basic resource node harassment. (Basically, the idea you spelled out would render skulks completely moot mid-game to end-game. You shouldn't need a 30 P.Res life form to take down a 10 T.Res structure.)
Also, if the alien commander can grow whips to take out your resource collectors without a fight from Marines I'd say your team deserves to lose. That's just my opinion though.
EDIT:
Also, can you imagine how broken this would be for base assaults? Just electrify that node in main base and forget about needing to defend your main power until Onos come into play.
Also, if the alien commander can grow whips to take out your resource collectors without a fight from Marines I'd say your team deserves to lose. That's just my opinion though.
EDIT:
Also, can you imagine how broken this would be for base assaults? Just electrify that node in main base and forget about needing to defend your main power until Onos come into play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The damage wouldn't be enough that 2 skulks could not kill the RT in the time it takes for electrify to kill them, and also if a lone skulk had regen or cara, he could take it down easily. It would not even require teamwork (as it does not require any now). There fore, it would not be a threat to higher lifeforms or even a pair of skulks, or a crag upgraded skulk. (~5 dmg per sec, kills a skulks in about 18 seconds i think, and i think Takes about 20 sec to kill an rt; or similar values to this).
This implementation would hardly make skulks useless, or be a stand alone defense for power nodes, execept against lone skulks using shade and shift only. 5 dmg/sec would only going to be useful early-mid game, and only if aliens don't get crag first, similar to mines.
And why shouldn't it affect cysts? The only change would be that aliens would actually need players to clear out a room before the kahmm can grow whips and crags in it. Fair, considering how marines needed players in that room in the first place to build the structures there.
This implementation would hardly make skulks useless, or be a stand alone defense for power nodes, execept against lone skulks using shade and shift only. 5 dmg/sec would only going to be useful early-mid game, and only if aliens don't get crag first, similar to mines.
And why shouldn't it affect cysts? The only change would be that aliens would actually need players to clear out a room before the kahmm can grow whips and crags in it. Fair, considering how marines needed players in that room in the first place to build the structures there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess, although considering the overblown costs for cysting to a res node then to shift whips on top of it I think it should still be a valid method. Also, considering the power node placements on a lot of maps it would effectively stop the spread of infestation if it hit cysts as well.
Forcing the skulk to attack the power node first to get rid of the electrify seems like it would be the ideal solution, although even that drastically extends the time needed to drop even one resource tower.
Plus, if Marines get electrify to protect their already heavily armored resource nodes what do the far more fragile alien resource nodes get as protection from enterprising ninja marines with an axe? It's actually far more painful for the Aliens to lose a harvester already, as it can potentially lead to a lost game if it's the last tower with less than 10 T.Res remaining. Not to mention the ease of cutting a cyst chain early to mid game and the relatively low health of alien harvesters.
Marine Extractor: 4000 HP / 500 AP
Aliens Extractor: 1300 HP / 500 AP
The marines knife does 25 structural damage (doubled vs. structures), while the skulk bite does 75 normal damage (damage halved vs. armor).
Basically, a Marine can destroy a harvester much faster than a skulk can destroy an extractor. So why exactly does only the Marines extractor need a better protection mechanic, other than the fact Marines are much slower. (Thusly reflected in the much higher effective HP of the extractor.)
Aliens Extractor: 1300 HP / 500 AP
The marines knife does 25 structural damage (doubled vs. structures), while the skulk bite does 75 normal damage (damage halved vs. armor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. The health numbers are both wrong.
2. Your sentence structure suggests that only the skulk bite does half damage vs armor, while actually both do (or rather 1 point of armor is worth 2 health).
3. You ignore attack rate, making the direct comparison impossible.
Marine extractors are 3500 HP | 500 AP.
Alien harvesters have 1300 HP | 400 AP initially and mature over 150 seconds to gain a total of 1750 HP | 500 AP.
This suggests a HUGE difference, right?
Unfortunately, I do not know how to find out the attack rate in the animation graphs so I cannot calculate this theoretically, so I tested it ingame.
Time to destroy marine extractor: ~28sec
Time to destroy fresh (0% maturity) alien harvester: ~21sec
Time to destroy old (100% maturity) alien harvester: ~26.5sec (this lines up perfectly with the value above since the harvester is gaining maturity health while you axe it: <a href="http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%281750%2B500*2%29%2F%28%281300%2B400*2%29%2B%28%281750%2B500*2%29-%281300%2B400*2%29%29*21%2F150%29*21" target="_blank">calculation</a>)
This signifies an advantage of about 6 to 33% killing speed in harvesters vs extractors depending on maturity. Not as much as one might think.
I'm definitely not a fan of adding electrify, but I like to get a more accurate idea of what I'm talking about instead of just throwing around random numbers that mean nothing.
At present a single Gorge can keep a harvester up after the cyst chain is cut while power down in an area knocks our the RT entirely till its rebuilt which takes longer than reconnecting a cyst chain.
With quicker decay it would mean a single gorge couldn't save a harvester alone. Also shut down some structure effects (such as the healing alien plant) when the cyst chain is cut.
PS: you should give my suggestion a read, addresses the same problem: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125442" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125442</a>
2. Your sentence structure suggests that only the skulk bite does half damage vs armor, while actually both do (or rather 1 point of armor is worth 2 health).
3. You ignore attack rate, making the direct comparison impossible.
Marine extractors are 3500 HP | 500 AP.
Alien harvesters have 1300 HP | 400 AP initially and mature over 150 seconds to gain a total of 1750 HP | 500 AP.
This suggests a HUGE difference, right?
Unfortunately, I do not know how to find out the attack rate in the animation graphs so I cannot calculate this theoretically, so I tested it ingame.
Time to destroy marine extractor: ~28sec
Time to destroy fresh (0% maturity) alien harvester: ~21sec
Time to destroy old (100% maturity) alien harvester: ~26.5sec (this lines up perfectly with the value above since the harvester is gaining maturity health while you axe it: <a href="http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%281750%2B500*2%29%2F%28%281300%2B400*2%29%2B%28%281750%2B500*2%29-%281300%2B400*2%29%29*21%2F150%29*21" target="_blank">calculation</a>)
This signifies an advantage of about 6 to 33% killing speed in harvesters vs extractors depending on maturity. Not as much as one might think.
I'm definitely not a fan of adding electrify, but I like to get a more accurate idea of what I'm talking about instead of just throwing around random numbers that mean nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Minor issue here but it goes like this.
Power node 1000 armour 2000 health, both armour and health take damage when attacked.
Build time 3 seconds.
Without this then the extractor stops functioning.
However cut a cyst chain and the harvester keeps on until it dies and can be instantly replaced, ok it takes 3x the time to set up fully normally but it does start to provide resources instantly so there is a bit of an issue here in how easily it can sustain itself.
possible solutions
1) quicker degradation / death from a cut chain to it
2) significantly lower initial resources or longer extraction time before maturation
3) complete loss of functionality without the cyst chain being complete to it.
or a mix of any of the above.
Or thinking outside the box a bit
4) allow Marines to use sentry batteries to power an extractor in exchange for a loss of output by a % when the room power is out.
At present a single Gorge can keep a harvester up after the cyst chain is cut while power down in an area knocks our the RT entirely till its rebuilt which takes longer than reconnecting a cyst chain.
With quicker decay it would mean a single gorge couldn't save a harvester alone. Also shut down some structure effects (such as the healing alien plant) when the cyst chain is cut.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me rikey!!!
if not shut down the healing alien plant then make it slow.