It's because I see a lot of stupid topics, and the good ones need very little in the way of follow up posts.
Like I said, nerfing camo doesn't matter. It's already a bad strategy that only works versus bad players. Removing it will result in more aliens wins even with new commanders, since anything less than 100% invisibility renders shade moot in <i>every</i> possible scenario rather than it having a niche as a troll strategy against inexperienced Marines commanders. It has the side effect of educating the community about there being one true viable alien build order. (That being Shift, Crag, Shade.)
So I'm with you guys, nerf it. It doesn't make a difference to anyone except total n00bs that are making poor decisions as alien commander in the current build. It will make zero difference to anyone that knows anything.
<!--quoteo(post=2045799:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that this discussion about camo has one real benefit, and only one.
If Camo gets changed, it will prove that UWE caters to forum goers that don't know how to play the game.
Then we can all make snarky forum topics about how OP the Marines are all the time with their ranged weapons, hard counters, AoE explosives, and mobile turrets that shoot through walls.
Frankly, I think it's <i> hilarious</i> that people whine and complain about something that costs 3 T.Res. It's the same cost as three dropped med packs, so which is worse? Dropping tons of health packs on Marines that are fighting fast or armored aliens; or dropping a scan around grouped Marines at obvious ambush locations? Scan keeps you from even needing the health packs, since Camo aliens are not only slow but also have no health to speak of.
Rush weapons upgrades and armor upgrades, scan often, win the game.
If you can't win against Camo first aliens, congratulations your team is <i>awful</i> and would have lost to <i>no upgrades at all</i>.
And Shade ink countering scans? If you're psychic and know when and where the Marine commander is going to scan next you should never lose games. The obvious retort is when Marines assault a hive. Realistically, by the time Marines are assaulting that hive they won't even need the scan any more due to egg lock on a crappy Aliens team.
<!--quoteo(post=2045954:date=Dec 14 2012, 06:49 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This guy is a dedicated alien player. Clearly his opinion is worthless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you missed it when I said it won't matter if it's nerfed or not. It makes no difference to me, except in those scenarios when someone that doesn't listen to reason builds shade first against a Marines team that clearly knows what they're doing. In that scenario, I have never seen camo win in 200+ hours of play.
The only times I <i>have</i> seen camo win is when aliens are heavily stacked.
Know what else I've seen win in pub games? Early lerk eggs on one hive. I guess that should be nerfed too since it works solely on completely clueless Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2045799:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Frankly, I think it's <i> hilarious</i> that people whine and complain about something that costs 3 T.Res. It's the same cost as three dropped med packs, so which is worse? Dropping tons of health packs on Marines that are fighting fast or armored aliens; or dropping a scan around grouped Marines at obvious ambush locations? Scan keeps you from even needing the health packs, since Camo aliens are not only slow but also have no health to speak of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not just 3 res, it's 3 res for every frontline (could be 2 or 3 locations marines are, so 6 or 9 res) every 30 seconds (could be shorter/longer, dunno the specifics of scan duration), all in the early game when resflow is tight. Let's assume 3 locations: that's 18 res per minute, where at the start you only get 1 res every so many seconds (again, I don't know the specifics, probably 5-10 seconds). That's 90 res spent scanning just in the first 5 minutes of the game. That 90 res could buy you: phase tech, phase gates at 3 empty tech points and 1 at spawn, and mines. It could also get you arms lab, armour 1, weapons 1, weapons 2 and an extra IP. It puts you on the serious backfoot in terms of expanding your technology. All this is even worse because if the aliens are doing their jobs correctly, they should be taking as many extractors down as possible to keep them from spending res on practically anything else, certainly not your weapons and armour upgrades..
Also, scanning doesn't completely negate medpack use. Your marines aren't going to not get hurt simply because you're scanning. Scanning doesn't render a skulk useless, just its camoflague capabilities. It's not as if marines only start dying once celerity/carapace hit the field.
<!--quoteo(post=2045987:date=Dec 14 2012, 08:22 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 14 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, scanning doesn't completely negate medpack use. Your marines aren't going to not get hurt simply because you're scanning. Scanning doesn't render a skulk useless, just its camoflague capabilities. It's not as if marines only start dying once celerity/carapace hit the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right that scanning doesn't render a skulk useless, but it renders cloaking moot which reveals a lightly armored or slower moving creature that didn't have much health or armor to start with. On top of that, the more upgrades the Marines stack on top of their vanilla Marine the less of an impact shade has.
If you nerf Camo you'll see Shift/Crag/Shade or if you're feeling silly Crag/Shift/Shade. There isn't much difference there, but it's an inescapable conclusion that any reduction from 100% invisibility makes Camo a non-starter in any situation. No one has really disputed that in any of the several 'nerf camo' threads. The slow as dirt speed while cloaked means that you will never 'catch' a moving Marine as it stands right now, so the only real vulnerable time is when you either don't have someone watching your back or you stop to build something without a scan.
It makes bad players play worse, and good players less effective at direct confrontation. You can be 'sneaky', but all the structures the aliens have that matter are always in the same places. That being Hives and Resource towers. No amount of invisibility will change that.
Keep in mind that I'm arguing that they should nerf it, as it's a suckers bet even now. I'm just tired of seeing pub commanders that won once or twice in a 24 person server with Camo and think that it's a powerful strategy. As soon as they bump noses with a good Marines commander, that bubble will burst or they'll cry hacks. Until then, the new Marine commanders that lost to a sucker strategy will post forum topics about how Marines command isn't too hard, it's just that aliens are too powerful.
I've also seen a few topics around saying that there's a camo exploit of some sort, although I haven't run into it personally. Makes me wonder if there's a connection there, since the Camo upgrade I'm playing with is apparently not the same one the complainers are seeing.
How about this, off infestation, aliens will have some sort of very dim outline or affect when moving and cloaked; I would even be fine if it was only applicable within a range around marines, so at a distance aliens are completely cloaked, but once within 10 feet of a rine and off infestation the movement affect kicks in. On infestation, aliens are always completely cloaked, since they, in a way, are one with the infestation bacteria.
It does get annoying playing rines against cloaked aliens. You pretty much have to wait until you start getting munched on before you can attack. Rines, when not in infested areas, need some way to deal with cloaking, other than having to rely on the rine commander spamming scans everywhere you go and dumping massive amounts of t-res. There is a reason no other games use full cloaking abilities, because it takes the feeling of control away from those players who are up against it; you pretty much begin to feel like you have no option and way to counter it, other than just accepting your enemy will always have the jump on you.
<!--quoteo(post=2045799:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Camo gets changed, it will prove that UWE caters to forum goers...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the same thing. I don't pick just one kind of server so I feel like a get a semi variety of players, I seriously do not even see shade hive going first all that often, I'm thinking I should start keeping track just out of curiosity. On aliens I think 90% of the time we get celerity first, which I like. On marines I don't tend to notice what they get first as easily (surprise) but I only remember a handful of times where camo was annoying but keeping an eye on my surroundings has worked decently well, I just watch my buddies to make sure I notice if they get nommed on and I try to stay in line of site of other marines, which I do no matter what aliens get. Camo annoys me the most when it's the end of the game and an onos will run around a corner and when I get there I don't know if he kept running or if he stopped and is 1 foot away from me... watching... waiting... giggling.
Out of curiosity for those annoyed with aliens going shade hive first, what size server do you play in? Is it a 12 server problem, cause I don't tend to play on those so maybe that's where they rule.
I noticed in NS1, motion-tracking was a frequent upgrade against Sensory Chamber (cloaking) Hive Aliens.
The best way I'd even get as close to changing Camoflague would be the way Crysis, Halo, and Unreal has implemented camoflague, which was through actual CAMO and not total invisibility.
AKA, a silhouette of transparency.
However, I think this would heavily rely on Spark Engine's future ability of transparency.
<!--quoteo(post=2045987:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:22 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 15 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not just 3 res, it's 3 res for every frontline (could be 2 or 3 locations marines are, so 6 or 9 res) every 30 seconds (could be shorter/longer, dunno the specifics of scan duration), all in the early game when resflow is tight. Let's assume 3 locations: that's 18 res per minute, where at the start you only get 1 res every so many seconds (again, I don't know the specifics, probably 5-10 seconds). That's 90 res spent scanning just in the first 5 minutes of the game. That 90 res could buy you: phase tech, phase gates at 3 empty tech points and 1 at spawn, and mines. It could also get you arms lab, armour 1, weapons 1, weapons 2 and an extra IP. It puts you on the serious backfoot in terms of expanding your technology. All this is even worse because if the aliens are doing their jobs correctly, they should be taking as many extractors down as possible to keep them from spending res on practically anything else, certainly not your weapons and armour upgrades..
Also, scanning doesn't completely negate medpack use. Your marines aren't going to not get hurt simply because you're scanning. Scanning doesn't render a skulk useless, just its camoflague capabilities. It's not as if marines only start dying once celerity/carapace hit the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you have 3 fronts pushing against an alien team with camo your strategy is wrong.
Take and hold 3 tech points, put obs and PG's at each tech point (removes need to scans at crucial strategic opints).
Turtle whilst you get better weapons and armour, 1/2 marines go harrass towers and just generally run off to die.
As has been continually pointed out to beat camo you need a different strat to what you normally use.
Recognise that aliens now need 3 hives/tech points to be at full effectiveness and exploit that fact.
A slower res rate wont kill marines if they hold the tech points from aliens, in fact they will win.
Problem is people want their candy as soon as the map starts so start whinging if they dont get the res flow they want so try to hold 5 extractors.
1) Build obs in main 2) Scan a tech point as your marines enter 3) Scan again while they build obs and power
You just spent 21 t.res to negate an entire upgrade that could have been carapace, regen, celerity, adrenaline, or silence, for that room. If you manage to protect the extractor in that room, it will pay for itself + the obs costs in about 3 minutes. Building an observatory network is actually cost-efficient provided you can respond in time to the little red dots on your map. Naturally the aliens would want to prevent this / bait out scans to slow down the marine economy, but once an obs goes up in a room, you are effectively down an upgrade when near that room.
Comments
Like I said, nerfing camo doesn't matter. It's already a bad strategy that only works versus bad players. Removing it will result in more aliens wins even with new commanders, since anything less than 100% invisibility renders shade moot in <i>every</i> possible scenario rather than it having a niche as a troll strategy against inexperienced Marines commanders. It has the side effect of educating the community about there being one true viable alien build order. (That being Shift, Crag, Shade.)
So I'm with you guys, nerf it. It doesn't make a difference to anyone except total n00bs that are making poor decisions as alien commander in the current build. It will make zero difference to anyone that knows anything.
If Camo gets changed, it will prove that UWE caters to forum goers that don't know how to play the game.
Then we can all make snarky forum topics about how OP the Marines are all the time with their ranged weapons, hard counters, AoE explosives, and mobile turrets that shoot through walls.
Frankly, I think it's <i> hilarious</i> that people whine and complain about something that costs 3 T.Res. It's the same cost as three dropped med packs, so which is worse? Dropping tons of health packs on Marines that are fighting fast or armored aliens; or dropping a scan around grouped Marines at obvious ambush locations? Scan keeps you from even needing the health packs, since Camo aliens are not only slow but also have no health to speak of.
Rush weapons upgrades and armor upgrades, scan often, win the game.
If you can't win against Camo first aliens, congratulations your team is <i>awful</i> and would have lost to <i>no upgrades at all</i>.
And Shade ink countering scans? If you're psychic and know when and where the Marine commander is going to scan next you should never lose games. The obvious retort is when Marines assault a hive. Realistically, by the time Marines are assaulting that hive they won't even need the scan any more due to egg lock on a crappy Aliens team.
EDIT: Spelling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy is a dedicated alien player. Clearly his opinion is worthless.
I guess you missed it when I said it won't matter if it's nerfed or not. It makes no difference to me, except in those scenarios when someone that doesn't listen to reason builds shade first against a Marines team that clearly knows what they're doing. In that scenario, I have never seen camo win in 200+ hours of play.
The only times I <i>have</i> seen camo win is when aliens are heavily stacked.
Know what else I've seen win in pub games? Early lerk eggs on one hive. I guess that should be nerfed too since it works solely on completely clueless Marines.
It's not just 3 res, it's 3 res for every frontline (could be 2 or 3 locations marines are, so 6 or 9 res) every 30 seconds (could be shorter/longer, dunno the specifics of scan duration), all in the early game when resflow is tight. Let's assume 3 locations: that's 18 res per minute, where at the start you only get 1 res every so many seconds (again, I don't know the specifics, probably 5-10 seconds). That's 90 res spent scanning just in the first 5 minutes of the game. That 90 res could buy you: phase tech, phase gates at 3 empty tech points and 1 at spawn, and mines. It could also get you arms lab, armour 1, weapons 1, weapons 2 and an extra IP. It puts you on the serious backfoot in terms of expanding your technology. All this is even worse because if the aliens are doing their jobs correctly, they should be taking as many extractors down as possible to keep them from spending res on practically anything else, certainly not your weapons and armour upgrades..
Also, scanning doesn't completely negate medpack use. Your marines aren't going to not get hurt simply because you're scanning. Scanning doesn't render a skulk useless, just its camoflague capabilities. It's not as if marines only start dying once celerity/carapace hit the field.
You're right that scanning doesn't render a skulk useless, but it renders cloaking moot which reveals a lightly armored or slower moving creature that didn't have much health or armor to start with. On top of that, the more upgrades the Marines stack on top of their vanilla Marine the less of an impact shade has.
If you nerf Camo you'll see Shift/Crag/Shade or if you're feeling silly Crag/Shift/Shade. There isn't much difference there, but it's an inescapable conclusion that any reduction from 100% invisibility makes Camo a non-starter in any situation. No one has really disputed that in any of the several 'nerf camo' threads. The slow as dirt speed while cloaked means that you will never 'catch' a moving Marine as it stands right now, so the only real vulnerable time is when you either don't have someone watching your back or you stop to build something without a scan.
It makes bad players play worse, and good players less effective at direct confrontation. You can be 'sneaky', but all the structures the aliens have that matter are always in the same places. That being Hives and Resource towers. No amount of invisibility will change that.
Keep in mind that I'm arguing that they should nerf it, as it's a suckers bet even now. I'm just tired of seeing pub commanders that won once or twice in a 24 person server with Camo and think that it's a powerful strategy. As soon as they bump noses with a good Marines commander, that bubble will burst or they'll cry hacks. Until then, the new Marine commanders that lost to a sucker strategy will post forum topics about how Marines command isn't too hard, it's just that aliens are too powerful.
I've also seen a few topics around saying that there's a camo exploit of some sort, although I haven't run into it personally. Makes me wonder if there's a connection there, since the Camo upgrade I'm playing with is apparently not the same one the complainers are seeing.
It does get annoying playing rines against cloaked aliens. You pretty much have to wait until you start getting munched on before you can attack. Rines, when not in infested areas, need some way to deal with cloaking, other than having to rely on the rine commander spamming scans everywhere you go and dumping massive amounts of t-res. There is a reason no other games use full cloaking abilities, because it takes the feeling of control away from those players who are up against it; you pretty much begin to feel like you have no option and way to counter it, other than just accepting your enemy will always have the jump on you.
I was thinking the same thing. I don't pick just one kind of server so I feel like a get a semi variety of players, I seriously do not even see shade hive going first all that often, I'm thinking I should start keeping track just out of curiosity. On aliens I think 90% of the time we get celerity first, which I like. On marines I don't tend to notice what they get first as easily (surprise) but I only remember a handful of times where camo was annoying but keeping an eye on my surroundings has worked decently well, I just watch my buddies to make sure I notice if they get nommed on and I try to stay in line of site of other marines, which I do no matter what aliens get. Camo annoys me the most when it's the end of the game and an onos will run around a corner and when I get there I don't know if he kept running or if he stopped and is 1 foot away from me... watching... waiting... giggling.
Out of curiosity for those annoyed with aliens going shade hive first, what size server do you play in? Is it a 12 server problem, cause I don't tend to play on those so maybe that's where they rule.
The best way I'd even get as close to changing Camoflague would be the way Crysis, Halo, and Unreal has implemented camoflague, which was through actual CAMO and not total invisibility.
AKA, a silhouette of transparency.
However, I think this would heavily rely on Spark Engine's future ability of transparency.
Also, scanning doesn't completely negate medpack use. Your marines aren't going to not get hurt simply because you're scanning. Scanning doesn't render a skulk useless, just its camoflague capabilities. It's not as if marines only start dying once celerity/carapace hit the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have 3 fronts pushing against an alien team with camo your strategy is wrong.
Take and hold 3 tech points, put obs and PG's at each tech point (removes need to scans at crucial strategic opints).
Turtle whilst you get better weapons and armour, 1/2 marines go harrass towers and just generally run off to die.
As has been continually pointed out to beat camo you need a different strat to what you normally use.
Recognise that aliens now need 3 hives/tech points to be at full effectiveness and exploit that fact.
A slower res rate wont kill marines if they hold the tech points from aliens, in fact they will win.
Problem is people want their candy as soon as the map starts so start whinging if they dont get the res flow they want so try to hold 5 extractors.
1) Build obs in main
2) Scan a tech point as your marines enter
3) Scan again while they build obs and power
You just spent 21 t.res to negate an entire upgrade that could have been carapace, regen, celerity, adrenaline, or silence, for that room. If you manage to protect the extractor in that room, it will pay for itself + the obs costs in about 3 minutes. Building an observatory network is actually cost-efficient provided you can respond in time to the little red dots on your map. Naturally the aliens would want to prevent this / bait out scans to slow down the marine economy, but once an obs goes up in a room, you are effectively down an upgrade when near that room.