Refinery changes feedback
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Just took a look at the 'new' Refinery. I gotta say, I love the new 'animated' refinery operations. This is the kind of stuff I'd love to see on all maps. It brings the map 'alive' so you don't feel like you are just playing in a painted room. My thoughts?
Likes:
-New map animations in extraction, transit and smelting. That pot of molten metal actually has a reason for being there now.
-The new 'open' transit zone, and the movement of the vent away from the res node.
-Shortened distance between transit and smelting
-The removal of the double node at lava falls, and moving one of the nodes closer to falls approach.
-The expanded area at the lava falls res node and the slight move south of the node.
-The addition of a new res node at exchange
-And yes, the Christmas lights at lava falls were a nice touch! :)
Concerns:
-New res node near falls approach is still tied to the power at lava falls. This means that while the aliens don't get a double by default, the marines can't use the falls approach res node without taking lava falls - which is tough at the best of times. I would have rather seen the node moved to falls approach and a new power node installed there. Either that or remove the second node entirely.
-The move of the res node in smelting was odd, since I thought it was in a good spot before. Now the node is far too close to conduit, and the power node is 'out of place'. (just seems odd having it on the side of the molten metal vat now - if it has to stay this way, perhaps move the power node to the old spot for the res node, which is abandoned)
-The distance between Flow Control and Transit is still long enough to make defending transit no easier than it was before. While the run to/from smelting is shorter, in most cases the marines will respond from Flow Control.
In the end I like the changes. Perhaps we will see more adjustments in future.
Likes:
-New map animations in extraction, transit and smelting. That pot of molten metal actually has a reason for being there now.
-The new 'open' transit zone, and the movement of the vent away from the res node.
-Shortened distance between transit and smelting
-The removal of the double node at lava falls, and moving one of the nodes closer to falls approach.
-The expanded area at the lava falls res node and the slight move south of the node.
-The addition of a new res node at exchange
-And yes, the Christmas lights at lava falls were a nice touch! :)
Concerns:
-New res node near falls approach is still tied to the power at lava falls. This means that while the aliens don't get a double by default, the marines can't use the falls approach res node without taking lava falls - which is tough at the best of times. I would have rather seen the node moved to falls approach and a new power node installed there. Either that or remove the second node entirely.
-The move of the res node in smelting was odd, since I thought it was in a good spot before. Now the node is far too close to conduit, and the power node is 'out of place'. (just seems odd having it on the side of the molten metal vat now - if it has to stay this way, perhaps move the power node to the old spot for the res node, which is abandoned)
-The distance between Flow Control and Transit is still long enough to make defending transit no easier than it was before. While the run to/from smelting is shorter, in most cases the marines will respond from Flow Control.
In the end I like the changes. Perhaps we will see more adjustments in future.
Comments
I do believe the animations for everything have been in for a while. They're bugged though, For example in mineshaft at crusher, the crusher is supposed to well crush. They're are a few other moving props on other maps as well. From my understanding they bug out and stay stationary most of the time. Out of my 500 hours of playtime I've seen the crusher actually working twice.
I know people moaned about the high alien win rate...this was again due to people focusing on res node (double) or trying to lock down pipe works instead of smelting.
The changes at lava just seem silly...remove the 2nd res node...putting it there is just trying to satisfy some "x number of nodes within spawn" argument put up by marine favoured players.
It makes me kinda sad to see the changes made, less impact of marines slower default movement will simply make this an easy marine win...just as soon as the public starts to realise this games is about tech points as much as it is res nodes.
We are ending up with all out maps like flipping wagon wheels, which makes for very little variety.
I preferred the longer walks...heck I prefer the older NS1 style maps (people moan about veil...too far between early res nodes).
For me these changes made a good map worse, wish they had not been made.
I'm not sure that I'm sold on the changes to the lava falls area, but Pipe Line approach is much better now.
Oh, there's a really nice place to build an Obs that covers the res node from main base and the approach from Lava Falls. <i>Really</i> liking that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The distance between Flow Control and Transit is still long enough to make defending transit no easier than it was before. While the run to/from smelting is shorter, in most cases the marines will respond from Flow Control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of agree on this. Perhaps if the node was within LOS from the blown out window it wouldn't be <i>as</i> bad.
I think I understand the rationale behind the change there - making it a single-res point would mean marines truly wouldn't have an incentive to even go there (the location just favors aliens a fair bit).
However the way the map has been changed just means that one of the two extractors will just be denied by Marines but probably not actually taken since taking it means controlling that same hard-to-control power node.
That's totally correct. In testing we've found that a single-res Lava Falls just doesn't give players enough reason to spend any time there.
I've been thinking about splitting Lava Falls into two power areas to tackle the power issue you speak of, but there wasn't time to test it (the resnode split change happened quite late). So we're going to at least try it out in testing and see how it works.
I know people moaned about the high alien win rate...this was again due to people focusing on res node (double) or trying to lock down pipe works instead of smelting.
The changes at lava just seem silly...remove the 2nd res node...putting it there is just trying to satisfy some "x number of nodes within spawn" argument put up by marine favoured players.
It makes me kinda sad to see the changes made, less impact of marines slower default movement will simply make this an easy marine win...just as soon as the public starts to realise this games is about tech points as much as it is res nodes.
We are ending up with all out maps like flipping wagon wheels, which makes for very little variety.
I preferred the longer walks...heck I prefer the older NS1 style maps (people moan about veil...too far between early res nodes).
For me these changes made a good map worse, wish they had not been made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Refinery was objectively the most alien-biased of all the maps, the data proved this. When only one team requires perfect execution to win, that's called imbalance.
I've been thinking about splitting Lava Falls into two power areas to tackle the power issue you speak of, but there wasn't time to test it (the resnode split change happened quite late). So we're going to at least try it out in testing and see how it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really looking forward to playing this new layout. Looks much better!
And since you are here commenting has there been any discussion about optimizing the map the lava areas? Compared to the rest of the map the area between flow control and transit is a quite severe fps drop (like -20) and not so bad but still noticeably worse in the center lava area.
I tend to avoid both ares entirely as best I can due to this. Maybe an option to just turn the lava off?
I know people moaned about the high alien win rate...this was again due to people focusing on res node (double) or trying to lock down pipe works instead of smelting.
The changes at lava just seem silly...remove the 2nd res node...putting it there is just trying to satisfy some "x number of nodes within spawn" argument put up by marine favoured players.
It makes me kinda sad to see the changes made, less impact of marines slower default movement will simply make this an easy marine win...just as soon as the public starts to realise this games is about tech points as much as it is res nodes.
We are ending up with all out maps like flipping wagon wheels, which makes for very little variety.
I preferred the longer walks...heck I prefer the older NS1 style maps (people moan about veil...too far between early res nodes).
For me these changes made a good map worse, wish they had not been made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if we change anything from NS1 it makes it automatically bad, terrible, and atrocious. If a map design works, there's little reason to change it unless you find something genuinely better. It's like making a square wheel just for the sake of it being different from a circular wheel.
I've been thinking about splitting Lava Falls into two power areas to tackle the power issue you speak of, but there wasn't time to test it (the resnode split change happened quite late). So we're going to at least try it out in testing and see how it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to hear!
I preferred the longer walks...heck I prefer the older NS1 style maps (people moan about veil...too far between early res nodes).
For me these changes made a good map worse, wish they had not been made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 was a diffrent game.
you did not need cysts or power. just walk whereever you want to and place RTs.
as alien on veil you need to spend around 35-40 TRES to get 2 additional harvesters
I didn't play the new layout enough to state my opinion.
But somehow I see alot of marines fall/jump down into the lava during battles. How? And why?!
For honor and glory, of course.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/byGSP.gif" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/byGSP.gif</a>
It definitely was possible as long as you blitzed the east side of the map and held all those RTs. It was still a really weirdly lopsided map though. The fact that it was necessary to run so far away from your base just to find fertile ground where you could hold some res was very unintuitive, which is why so few marines figured it out.
I say its called asymmetry, given the poor standard of marine play out there I think stats are very biased on face value.
I think the maps been nerfed unnecessarily, I think the map was pretty much right as was.
Marines could win, you just needed to actually all push out one side (pref smelting) and continue that push. Sure it was the longest path to a tech point but it then offered you a safe 2nd tech point (compared to pipe with alien spawn in containment).
The maps in NS1, like veil (which people moan about being "too far to get res nodes"), forced strategic choices...it seems we no longer require the commander to think up strats...simply upgrade our exos!!!
Other may disagree but I think maps should favour aliens early on (until phase tech) and this map did that.
I've been thinking about splitting Lava Falls into two power areas to tackle the power issue you speak of, but there wasn't time to test it (the resnode split change happened quite late). So we're going to at least try it out in testing and see how it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually quite like the idea of splitting Lava Falls. Perhaps two independently powered platforms in the middle of the lava, with two catwalks attaching them? Perhaps even on two different levels of catwalks, although it would be hard to hold in that case just because of the way cysts work. It would be a maze, but interesting and ultimately worth it for two res nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=2048254:date=Dec 19 2012, 05:25 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 19 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still too large, it's a good map for player counts of 24 players, but not the standard 18. Snow near lava is sorta silly but whatever it's made of nanites or something. Having ash instead and an ashman instead of snowman would have been a nice touch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is possible, it's just a <i>huge</i> map, with lots of ground to cover. It's one of the few maps that you can't sprint to a second tech point. (You can to Pipe, but not to Smelting.) Although with the changes you can get a lot closer to smelting than you could before in one sprint.
relocation.
I think the maps been nerfed unnecessarily, I think the map was pretty much right as was.
Marines could win, you just needed to actually all push out one side (pref smelting) and continue that push. Sure it was the longest path to a tech point but it then offered you a safe 2nd tech point (compared to pipe with alien spawn in containment).
The maps in NS1, like veil (which people moan about being "too far to get res nodes"), forced strategic choices...it seems we no longer require the commander to think up strats...simply upgrade our exos!!!
Other may disagree but I think maps should favour aliens early on (until phase tech) and this map did that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between forcing strategic choices and just making a poorly balanced map. Wild imbalance isn't fun.
The key to victory as Marines is now a little less reliant on capturing Turbine first and working your way back towards Flow Control (it is still the optimal strategy however). I do not like Lava Falls, at all. It needs to change substantially in a future patch. The resource node change was a little better, but still being reliant on a power node closer to Containment was a misstep. I also feel the Lava Falls catwalks need to be widened/enlarged to allow for Marines to "jump/dodge" without fear of falling into the lava (as funny as this may be).
I also have mixed feelings about the new resource node in Exchange, I feel it is almost a necessary evil, but now there are perhaps, too many "easy" nodes on the bottom of the map for Marines to hold.
All in all, the map plays very well on the larger 24-slot servers. I played two relatively tough games (for both sides) on Refinery last night and it was actually fun.
I never felt the map was out of balance, a marine team that pushed counter clockwise rarely had any issues.
People are attracted to nearest hanging fruit and pipe was visibly closer so people always focused on pipe.
These change simply makes it easier for marines, when all they need to to do was have a strategy for a specific map (rather than generic "take 5 res nodes").
The same issues with this map are the same ones that impact shade 1st, it requires a shift from the whole "res at all costs for marine" game play....it requires a change and people dont like change.
Anways, quite a few of those matches were on refinery and aliens still won every single match.
- Lava falls really needs its power moved south or the marines have no chance in hell of establishing a foothold there
- Exchange harvester location is silly (lerk spikes ftw)
- why in the name of god did you move the res in smelting to such a stupid point O_o
- Empty space still has no power keeping marines from placing a good forward armoy to pipeworks.
Also a sidenote about marines in general:
- You removed the pushback from PGs and IPs ? SERIOUSLY? You should really rename PGs into AFTS (Alien Food Transportation System) , because it really is just that now. Pushback was bad but better than nothing. I might have some merit if marines had chainswords and power axes... (or atleast a bloody bayonet)
Now keep in mind about those comments that i play alien only, since marines are loosing all the time and im a seriously bad looser (and i have no problem admitting that)
I play to have fun and i just dont have that on the marine side currently. ( i was marine player before the balancing went down the drain)
People are attracted to nearest hanging fruit and pipe was visibly closer so people always focused on pipe.
These change simply makes it easier for marines, when all they need to to do was have a strategy for a specific map (rather than generic "take 5 res nodes").
The same issues with this map are the same ones that impact shade 1st, it requires a shift from the whole "res at all costs for marine" game play....it requires a change and people dont like change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was EXTREMELY hard to win pushing east as well. It was just a bit more viable than trying to spread out evenly from MS.
From what I've seen so far, collision detection with animated props in NS2 right now REALLY does not work. This is one of the things NS doesn't do right yet.
The only hard part was finding 7 - 11 additional players who would also push counterclockwise.
Once you have smelting (2nd CC + 3 res nodes) you can easily push conduit, lava and turbine. Also your mains close so you can also easily pressure pipe.
The only hive you have issues applying pressure to is containment (until pipe or turbine are taken).
We already have very little variation in map design, Vei,l and up until these changes, Refinery where two maps that did break the common mold.
I always thought the crusher was tied into there being a power node there as from most of the games I've been in Marines rarely take the area by crusher
Yes I also thought that the crusher thing did never move... until I tried to use it as a gorge bunker once and instantly got well... crushed :/
Take a leisurely walk down to pipe
Build robotics factory and arcs
Win game
Padding because this list is clearly too short
Yeah I thought so too. But I've seen crusher taken and it still doesn't function :/
In repair room on Tram there's a moving arm that has the same problem as crusher.