<!--quoteo(post=2050724:date=Dec 24 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Dec 24 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As has been said before, I don't have a problem with marines in vents when JPs are out. I do have a problem when "seemingly" exploitative tactics are used (yes, they're not, but jumping on parts of the level to get into vents seems like it). Also, vents provide marines a great advantage since they are typically long and straight allowing the marine to finish off whoever is in there very quickly.
My vote is that marines are not allowed in vents, period, until JPs are out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think maybe adding more of the fan sections to vents helps as in some vents Aliens have an extra bit of room they can move up into and hide meaning Marines can't simply shoot and kill them right down the length of the vent and they can force Marines to come in close to kill them.
<!--quoteo(post=2050744:date=Dec 24 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 24 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think maybe adding more of the fan sections to vents helps as in some vents Aliens have an extra bit of room they can move up into and hide meaning Marines can't simply shoot and kill them right down the length of the vent and they can force Marines to come in close to kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a really good idea.
In regards to the OP: If a marine is doing anything useful in a vent (shooting a structure enough to do significant damage), he is going to reload eventually, and you should be able to badly hurt or kill him. At armor 3, yeah skulks and fades can't get sg marine out of vents, might be more of an issue with life-form scaling at that point however.
A marine in a vent is a slow moving sitting duck. If you can skulk properly (i.e. not running straight at them down the length of the vent and actually sneaking up on them from behind or other alternate routes), they are extremely easy to kill.
Not only are they easy kills, they are also completely ineffective towards the whole team work goal. A marine in a vent is just a simple distraction, he is not building things for the comm and he is not killing alien structures. He is sitting in a vent, being focused on by.. well, morons.
I find it absolutely hilarious whenever I get into a vent and watch the same skulks come rushing at me from the same direction, one at a time, over and over again. They may as well just quit out of the game at that point, because what they're doing is absolutely worthless to the overall victory goal. The best part is when they do actually kill me, they celebrate a little, usually with some sort of comments, completely oblivious to the fact that they just got locked down to one hive because half of the team was responding to a marine in a vent. Good job! You just lost the game, celebrate that. :)
Gorges are great for clearing out vent marines by the way. I rarely see one come out to counter the vent marines, maybe it's some sort of strategic secret.
<!--quoteo(post=2050749:date=Dec 24 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Dec 24 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges are great for clearing out vent marines by the way. I rarely see one come out to counter the vent marines, maybe it's some sort of strategic secret.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if the gorge's spit actually worked, but I'm pretty sure a marine (even with w0/a0) can kill a gorge faster than the gorge can kill the marine.
<!--quoteo(post=2050604:date=Dec 24 2012, 05:36 AM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Dec 24 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't want the game to block marines from all vents. The issue is that some vents which look like the mapper didn't intend for marines to get into can be gotten into because of physics quirks, the vent between skylights and overlooks on Veil is an obvious culprit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm 95% sure that was intentional actually.
<!--quoteo(post=2050693:date=Dec 24 2012, 10:45 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Dec 24 2012, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fine as is, it's a clever tactic. Please don't be upset when you die this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What the F are you doing here?
<!--quoteo(post=2050683:date=Dec 24 2012, 10:07 AM:name=NousWanderer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NousWanderer @ Dec 24 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it is in fact the mapper's intent for marines to be able to get into the Skylights <-> Overlook vent without jetpacks, a ladder should be added so that this is an obvious room mechanic everyone is aware of / can anticipate as opposed to something seemingly unintended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that ramp is my favorite part of Veil, and much quicker than a ladder.
<!--quoteo(post=2050749:date=Dec 24 2012, 07:28 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Dec 24 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A marine in a vent is a slow moving sitting duck. If you can skulk properly (i.e. not running straight at them down the length of the vent and actually sneaking up on them from behind or other alternate routes), they are extremely easy to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trouble with that is that the vents usually ARE our sneaky alternative route to outflank marines. If both the normal hallways and the vents are camped (as is often the case around topographical) you'd have to run all the way around and through marine start to get behind them.
<!--quoteo(post=2050669:date=Dec 24 2012, 09:31 AM:name=Soulfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soulfighter @ Dec 24 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i want a downvote option to instantly kill these kinds of topics<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Upvoting and downvoting kills any reasonable discourse. It's why reddit is a cesspit.
The skylights ramp is kind of bull######, imo. It's an intentionally placed prop that was put there so people could use broken/weird physics to get into a vent... just put a ladder there ffs.
I remember one match on veil where this marine kept sneaking through the vent in topographical and tried to ninja repair the power node in C-12, we killed him a couple times then we finally got a gorge to seal it up with clogs and hydras.
Certainly should be allowed once you have jps, but as is I think there are too many vents marines can get in without them. Like that vent on veil in skylights, I suspect is not intentional (it certainly looks weird and unnatural).
I think the thread would be better phrased as, "the vents in the current official maps give Marines a far too great advantage". I agree with this. Far too often I see a marine in the vents, and they can snipe me off before I can get anywhere near them. Only as a Lerk is there any chance of being more effective than the marine due to its ranged weapon, but the marine's ranged weapons are far more powerful. Even if I do get near them with cloak, one shot with a shotgun and I'm gone. My strategy is to wait for the marine to come out of the vent before I can do anything, but surely that's not the intention of the vents. The vents should be solely for aliens, but mappers should be able to decide otherwise.
<!--quoteo(post=2050856:date=Dec 24 2012, 05:10 PM:name=ritualsacrifice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ritualsacrifice @ Dec 24 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skylights ramp is kind of bull######, imo. It's an intentionally placed prop that was put there so people could use broken/weird physics to get into a vent... just put a ladder there ffs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ladders don't work very well in NS2. It's entirely possible a ladder was tested and it was impossible to get off the ladder and into the vent, and therefore the ramp was done because it actually does work. Hilariously enough, I'm pretty sure this is actually the case. Impossible looking ramps are a more functional game play option than possible looking ladders.
Marines should not be able to look behind while in vents. that would at least give it some trade of. as it is, the odds are in favor of the marine in almost all vent encounters.
I'm actually a pretty big fan of marines in vents, but actually as a marine I rarely use them. There is something extra fun about getting a marine in a vent and usually see thier death followed by a 'that is ours, no marines aloud!' comment from the alien that cat them. It feels very satisfying to get them, and often takes team work, if one skulk goes in they might die but i rarely see the next skulk fail if they jump right in. I love sneaking up on them, and quite frankly you'd be surprised that dodging helps a decent amount even in small spaces, their guns don't have much spread and I don't think they expect to have any difficulty killing you there.
Maybe I just haven't been in games with good vent marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2050777:date=Dec 24 2012, 01:29 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 24 2012, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the F are you doing here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a bit like herpes. I may not always be visible but I am always there
<!--quoteo(post=2050707:date=Dec 24 2012, 10:41 AM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Dec 24 2012, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's actually the other way around. I feel sorry for folks who have to deal with ninja I am. When I do the stuff I mentioned earlier, I feel that it's ridiculous, overpowered and does not belong to this game. Poor skulk runs for his life, I hop onto the power node and then into the vent and finish him.
FFS, these are space marines, not trained acrobat ninja monkeys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a vent, not a low gravity pole vault competition
I think a lot of vents were never supposed to be accessible by the standard marine and they weren't. Only when some collision model / physics something got changed to smooth out the movement a bit did the vents suddenly become accessible during beta.
A lot of slightly sloped walls allow you to crawl up high like in crevice. This was never initially intended I think, it just happened to be a result of the collision changes... right?
I do like marines in vents. But like the op mentioned, for some of the vents it seems a bit ridiculous as there is no apparent means of getting in there.
<!--quoteo(post=2050594:date=Dec 24 2012, 05:19 AM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Dec 24 2012, 05:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is ridiculous and should not be allowed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2052147:date=Dec 27 2012, 07:43 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Dec 27 2012, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gorge vent > marine vent<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gorge in vent is hell of a problem, but at least it makes sense.
<!--quoteo(post=2050627:date=Dec 24 2012, 10:52 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 24 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the mapper is actually very aware of that, and whereas I doubt it was intentional to begin with, has stated he wants to leave it as it is. I could be wrong however, so take that with a grain of salt unless somebody confirms, as I don't want to contribute to any misinformation here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You shouldn't be able to command-drop supplies to a marine in a vent. Unless an alien squad organizes a 3-way ambush, an average marine can hold a vent with unlimited ammo for a very long time.
Really, some aliens complaining about marines being able to get in the vents?
I guess I would complain too if my easy ticket to dodging direct confrontation to easily kill critical infrastructure was taken up by a very squishy marine. Then again I could always just clog the vent up, run on the ceilings, camouflage ambush or do any number of things the marines cannot...
I dont see what the problem with marines in vents is. Yeh I have been surprised killed by vent campers in C12 - Topo vent once or twice. But meh, I leave them there once that happens. They aren't really achieving much by camping in that vent. They usually need to get out of the vent to defend either res tower anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2050951:date=Dec 25 2012, 06:45 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 25 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ladders don't work very well in NS2. It's entirely possible a ladder was tested and it was impossible to get off the ladder and into the vent, and therefore the ramp was done because it actually does work. Hilariously enough, I'm pretty sure this is actually the case. Impossible looking ramps are a more functional game play option than possible looking ladders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The ladder in Lava falls on Refinery seems to work fine for me
Comments
My vote is that marines are not allowed in vents, period, until JPs are out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think maybe adding more of the fan sections to vents helps as in some vents Aliens have an extra bit of room they can move up into and hide meaning Marines can't simply shoot and kill them right down the length of the vent and they can force Marines to come in close to kill them.
This is a really good idea.
In regards to the OP: If a marine is doing anything useful in a vent (shooting a structure enough to do significant damage), he is going to reload eventually, and you should be able to badly hurt or kill him. At armor 3, yeah skulks and fades can't get sg marine out of vents, might be more of an issue with life-form scaling at that point however.
Not only are they easy kills, they are also completely ineffective towards the whole team work goal. A marine in a vent is just a simple distraction, he is not building things for the comm and he is not killing alien structures. He is sitting in a vent, being focused on by.. well, morons.
I find it absolutely hilarious whenever I get into a vent and watch the same skulks come rushing at me from the same direction, one at a time, over and over again. They may as well just quit out of the game at that point, because what they're doing is absolutely worthless to the overall victory goal. The best part is when they do actually kill me, they celebrate a little, usually with some sort of comments, completely oblivious to the fact that they just got locked down to one hive because half of the team was responding to a marine in a vent. Good job! You just lost the game, celebrate that. :)
Gorges are great for clearing out vent marines by the way. I rarely see one come out to counter the vent marines, maybe it's some sort of strategic secret.
Maybe if the gorge's spit actually worked, but I'm pretty sure a marine (even with w0/a0) can kill a gorge faster than the gorge can kill the marine.
I'm 95% sure that was intentional actually.
What the F are you doing here?
But that ramp is my favorite part of Veil, and much quicker than a ladder.
Trouble with that is that the vents usually ARE our sneaky alternative route to outflank marines. If both the normal hallways and the vents are camped (as is often the case around topographical) you'd have to run all the way around and through marine start to get behind them.
Upvoting and downvoting kills any reasonable discourse. It's why reddit is a cesspit.
Ladders don't work very well in NS2. It's entirely possible a ladder was tested and it was impossible to get off the ladder and into the vent, and therefore the ramp was done because it actually does work. Hilariously enough, I'm pretty sure this is actually the case. Impossible looking ramps are a more functional game play option than possible looking ladders.
Maybe I just haven't been in games with good vent marines.
I'm a bit like herpes. I may not always be visible but I am always there
Poor skulk runs for his life, I hop onto the power node and then into the vent and finish him.
FFS, these are space marines, not trained acrobat ninja monkeys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a vent, not a low gravity pole vault competition
A lot of slightly sloped walls allow you to crawl up high like in crevice. This was never initially intended I think, it just happened to be a result of the collision changes... right?
I do like marines in vents. But like the op mentioned, for some of the vents it seems a bit ridiculous as there is no apparent means of getting in there.
lol
Gorge in vent is hell of a problem, but at least it makes sense.
If true, that is disappointing.
I guess I would complain too if my easy ticket to dodging direct confrontation to easily kill critical infrastructure was taken up by a very squishy marine. Then again I could always just clog the vent up, run on the ceilings, camouflage ambush or do any number of things the marines cannot...
The ladder in Lava falls on Refinery seems to work fine for me