<!--quoteo(post=2052959:date=Dec 29 2012, 06:36 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 29 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines have 80 hp and 10 armor. Parasite deals 10 normal damage (aka half damage to armor). That means mines take 10 parasites to destroy from a skulk. You get off 2-3 with a full energy bar.
It probably takes a skulk 15 or 20 seconds to parasite a mine down. It's never worth it to spend your time doing this.
p.s. necro'd thread....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is when the Marines have a few people defending and a base full of mines. Watching the little humans scurry round as all those explosions go off. Also if you're lucky and the person laying the mines is an idiot you get to kill them with their own mines exploding.
<!--quoteo(post=2052903:date=Dec 30 2012, 03:29 AM:name=Tova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tova @ Dec 30 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please elaborate, I'm completely open to your advice and commentary. Don't just tell me they are "incredibly powerful," explain: How do you use them? Where do you typically place them? What kind of damage are you hoping to do with them? Are you getting a reasonable trade for the resources spent?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>How to use mines</b> - Buy at an armoury and place them
<b>Where to use mines</b> - Below vent entrances, phasegates, otherside of doors, around corners, blocked side of rt's to force skulks to bite from exposed side etc. Your team will have enough res for many mines so feel free to spam away. Mine spam is obviously only really a problem in comp play, as opposed to pub where most players won't even know mines are researched nor what to do with them.
<b>What are you hoping to accomplish with them</b> - One shot skulks and win critical battles that turn the game. Such as res pushes, egg lock attempts, phasegate pushes, anti-base rush so you don't need to tres beacon and so on. *Most of the time it's actually better for the marine if the mine doesn't one shot the skulk, since he becomes useless with like 1 hp and ends up spending more time going to a hive to reheal etc.
<b>Reasonable trade for res spent?</b> - Yes. Know that every intelligent mine you place early game is without a doubt worth the res. When you have a whole team actively spamming mines, you don't even need to think about whether you should place it in critical spot a, or critical spot b. Just place it anywhere of interest and that'll be enough.
Are mines too powerful? Yes. They may or may not be 'overpowered' (i'm not going to bother going there) when you take into account the whole timeframe of early to late game, but they are definitely powerful enough to prevent other comparably viable and interesting strategic choices. Some mine tweaks, as well as possibly changing obs pre-requisite back to IP only, may help address the OP's issue regarding viability and boring 'metagame'. The mine tweaks are already in the official prototype build (hp nerf), and hopefully these and more make it through the pipeline into the live build.
<!--quoteo(post=2052903:date=Dec 29 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Tova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tova @ Dec 29 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please elaborate, I'm completely open to your advice and commentary. Don't just tell me they are "incredibly powerful," explain: How do you use them? Where do you typically place them? What kind of damage are you hoping to do with them? Are you getting a reasonable trade for the resources spent?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I can elaborate. They are incredible powerful early game. - They allow for the marines to survive an organised skulk rush (multiple skulks coming for you!) - They save early far away outposts - They can be placed behind structures so that a skulk can not take cover behind it while he chews it down (especially Rts) - They can be planted somewhere along the escape route of some annoying alien.
You will notice that as soon as you start playing against better aliens, mines almost become a necessity to survive even the first 5 minutes of the game. Just think about it, if all the defending marines die, a stray mine can still force an alien to retreat or die instead of the alien killing a valuable structure bought by TEAM resources. That is 5 PERSONAL res well spent. Especially early game where the save or loss of assets snowballs into a marine WIN or LOSS late game.
Late game they lose their true usefulness, as the gorge his bile bomb ability takes care of all the mines in one bile and the aliens have a lot more HP so they hardly even have to pay attention to mines. At that point it is better to save your personal res for weapons/jetpacks or maybe even an exo if a lot of fire power is required.
<!--quoteo(post=2053047:date=Dec 29 2012, 09:38 PM:name=Gorge Norris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorge Norris @ Dec 29 2012, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I can elaborate. They are incredible powerful early game. - They allow for the marines to survive an organised skulk rush (multiple skulks coming for you!) - They save early far away outposts - They can be placed behind structures so that a skulk can not take cover behind it while he chews it down (especially Rts) - They can be planted somewhere along the escape route of some annoying alien.
You will notice that as soon as you start playing against better aliens, mines almost become a necessity to survive even the first 5 minutes of the game. Just think about it, if all the defending marines die, a stray mine can still force an alien to retreat or die instead of the alien killing a valuable structure bought by TEAM resources. That is 5 PERSONAL res well spent. Especially early game where the save or loss of assets snowballs into a marine WIN or LOSS late game.
Late game they lose their true usefulness, as the gorge his bile bomb ability takes care of all the mines in one bile and the aliens have a lot more HP so they hardly even have to pay attention to mines. At that point it is better to save your personal res for weapons/jetpacks or maybe even an exo if a lot of fire power is required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stupid question though, can't skulks just sit on the RT just above the mine anyway ?
<!--quoteo(post=2053071:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 29 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stupid question though, can't skulks just sit on the RT just above the mine anyway ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but you deny them the 100% invincible cover spot when you put it behind the RT. If they're on top of the RT they'll have a limb sticking out that you can pistol and kill instantly.
Do note covering RTs with mines isn't very optimal, but it is doable (especially when they start to get lerks out and you have a few extra mines, don't buy any for this reason)
<!--quoteo(post=2053176:date=Dec 29 2012, 10:54 PM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Dec 29 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think mines are pretty easily avoided since they are bright orange in alien vision...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The issue isn't so much that you can't see them. It's that there are many positions at which they cannot be avoided. When a marine is standing on one, when it's in a vent, when it's in a vital retreat path. Behind an obs/IP. Lots of time, you are fully aware of the mine, but you still can't do anything about it because you have to move into the threat zone of the mine to properly attack a marine nearby or sensitive target.
Your options are often either "hit the mine and hope to not die" or "run away and do nothing" both of which are usually not preferable.
<!--quoteo(post=2053189:date=Dec 29 2012, 11:08 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 29 2012, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The issue isn't so much that you can't see them. It's that there are many positions at which they cannot be avoided. When a marine is standing on one, when it's in a vent, when it's in a vital retreat path. Behind an obs/IP. Lots of time, you are fully aware of the mine, but you still can't do anything about it because you have to move into the threat zone of the mine to properly attack a marine nearby or sensitive target.
Your options are often either "hit the mine and hope to not die" or "run away and do nothing" both of which are usually not preferable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps make so the mine does friendly damage to structures so marines can't place them too close to deny a target and sit there and be like: "Ha Ha you can't touch this"?
The idea of mines is not to kill aliens per se, but to give a major advantage to any fight that happens in a room with fights, including marines defending RTs.
What mines do is that they very strongly discourage skulks from engaging in rooms with mines. This helps against baserushes, because it discourages engaging in the base where there are a lot of mines. This also helps a ton with pushes, as marines can lay a few mines down in a room with an alien RT (walls, areas with no creep, or after clearing a bit of creep), which makes defending that RT extremely difficult for skulks.
Yes, mines are clearly visible in "alien vision" but that doesn't help much when you're in a fight and have to dodge a lot, especially because marines can easily hop back to mined areas.
Mines really only become bang for buck against organized alien play with several skulks due to the AOE damage of the explosions. Against single skulks one might argue the ress cost is a bit high.
This is why mines are mainly too strong in competitive play, but they can be pretty decent in pub games as well.
Mines are fine... Lerk spikes, gorge bile + spit easily destroy mines... as a skulk i just yesterday destroyed 2 mines by just leaping close to them and survived. Onos doesnt cares about mines and fades i dont play.
Play mostly alien, dont see the problem with mines. As marine they are good for defending structures so the aliens cant just rush and ###### up all the early bases due to their superior speed.
Its the one edge the marines have at the start of the game, as it is much easier for the aliens to go on the aggressive than it is the marines due to their speed.
Please stop posting about Mines being OP or broken, they are one of the most balanced elements (currently) in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be fair, this thread is about a month old, and it was bumped.
I'd like mines to have a little more longevity throughout the game, and be more of a choice rather than a thing you just must have in the early game, which at some point you just stop spending p-res on entirely because they hit that X minute mark and are almost worthless now. It's not so much that they are OP or UP or broken, but that they work poorly as an RTS unit. There is significant room in their design for improvement.
[edit] additionally, I think the point was quite well argued, kindly read a thread before whining for people to "stop posting". Things aren't just the way you say they are because you said so.
<!--quoteo(post=2053189:date=Dec 29 2012, 10:08 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 29 2012, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your options are often either "hit the mine and hope to not die" or "run away and do nothing" both of which are usually not preferable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say those things as if they shouldnt be allowed to happen, I thought that was the point of marines spending their pres on mines to hold areas
Comments
It probably takes a skulk 15 or 20 seconds to parasite a mine down. It's never worth it to spend your time doing this.
p.s. necro'd thread....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is when the Marines have a few people defending and a base full of mines. Watching the little humans scurry round as all those explosions go off. Also if you're lucky and the person laying the mines is an idiot you get to kill them with their own mines exploding.
<b>How to use mines</b>
- Buy at an armoury and place them
<b>Where to use mines</b>
- Below vent entrances, phasegates, otherside of doors, around corners, blocked side of rt's to force skulks to bite from exposed side etc. Your team will have enough res for many mines so feel free to spam away. Mine spam is obviously only really a problem in comp play, as opposed to pub where most players won't even know mines are researched nor what to do with them.
<b>What are you hoping to accomplish with them</b>
- One shot skulks and win critical battles that turn the game. Such as res pushes, egg lock attempts, phasegate pushes, anti-base rush so you don't need to tres beacon and so on. *Most of the time it's actually better for the marine if the mine doesn't one shot the skulk, since he becomes useless with like 1 hp and ends up spending more time going to a hive to reheal etc.
<b>Reasonable trade for res spent?</b>
- Yes. Know that every intelligent mine you place early game is without a doubt worth the res. When you have a whole team actively spamming mines, you don't even need to think about whether you should place it in critical spot a, or critical spot b. Just place it anywhere of interest and that'll be enough.
Are mines too powerful? Yes. They may or may not be 'overpowered' (i'm not going to bother going there) when you take into account the whole timeframe of early to late game, but they are definitely powerful enough to prevent other comparably viable and interesting strategic choices. Some mine tweaks, as well as possibly changing obs pre-requisite back to IP only, may help address the OP's issue regarding viability and boring 'metagame'. The mine tweaks are already in the official prototype build (hp nerf), and hopefully these and more make it through the pipeline into the live build.
I think I can elaborate.
They are incredible powerful early game.
- They allow for the marines to survive an organised skulk rush (multiple skulks coming for you!)
- They save early far away outposts
- They can be placed behind structures so that a skulk can not take cover behind it while he chews it down (especially Rts)
- They can be planted somewhere along the escape route of some annoying alien.
You will notice that as soon as you start playing against better aliens, mines almost become a necessity to survive even the first 5 minutes of the game.
Just think about it, if all the defending marines die, a stray mine can still force an alien to retreat or die instead of the alien killing a valuable structure bought by TEAM resources. That is 5 PERSONAL res well spent. Especially early game where the save or loss of assets snowballs into a marine WIN or LOSS late game.
Late game they lose their true usefulness, as the gorge his bile bomb ability takes care of all the mines in one bile and the aliens have a lot more HP so they hardly even have to pay attention to mines. At that point it is better to save your personal res for weapons/jetpacks or maybe even an exo if a lot of fire power is required.
They are incredible powerful early game.
- They allow for the marines to survive an organised skulk rush (multiple skulks coming for you!)
- They save early far away outposts
- They can be placed behind structures so that a skulk can not take cover behind it while he chews it down (especially Rts)
- They can be planted somewhere along the escape route of some annoying alien.
You will notice that as soon as you start playing against better aliens, mines almost become a necessity to survive even the first 5 minutes of the game.
Just think about it, if all the defending marines die, a stray mine can still force an alien to retreat or die instead of the alien killing a valuable structure bought by TEAM resources. That is 5 PERSONAL res well spent. Especially early game where the save or loss of assets snowballs into a marine WIN or LOSS late game.
Late game they lose their true usefulness, as the gorge his bile bomb ability takes care of all the mines in one bile and the aliens have a lot more HP so they hardly even have to pay attention to mines. At that point it is better to save your personal res for weapons/jetpacks or maybe even an exo if a lot of fire power is required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stupid question though, can't skulks just sit on the RT just above the mine anyway ?
Yes but you deny them the 100% invincible cover spot when you put it behind the RT. If they're on top of the RT they'll have a limb sticking out that you can pistol and kill instantly.
Do note covering RTs with mines isn't very optimal, but it is doable (especially when they start to get lerks out and you have a few extra mines, don't buy any for this reason)
The issue isn't so much that you can't see them. It's that there are many positions at which they cannot be avoided. When a marine is standing on one, when it's in a vent, when it's in a vital retreat path. Behind an obs/IP. Lots of time, you are fully aware of the mine, but you still can't do anything about it because you have to move into the threat zone of the mine to properly attack a marine nearby or sensitive target.
Your options are often either "hit the mine and hope to not die" or "run away and do nothing" both of which are usually not preferable.
Your options are often either "hit the mine and hope to not die" or "run away and do nothing" both of which are usually not preferable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps make so the mine does friendly damage to structures so marines can't place them too close to deny a target and sit there and be like: "Ha Ha you can't touch this"?
What mines do is that they very strongly discourage skulks from engaging in rooms with mines. This helps against baserushes, because it discourages engaging in the base where there are a lot of mines. This also helps a ton with pushes, as marines can lay a few mines down in a room with an alien RT (walls, areas with no creep, or after clearing a bit of creep), which makes defending that RT extremely difficult for skulks.
Yes, mines are clearly visible in "alien vision" but that doesn't help much when you're in a fight and have to dodge a lot, especially because marines can easily hop back to mined areas.
Mines really only become bang for buck against organized alien play with several skulks due to the AOE damage of the explosions. Against single skulks one might argue the ress cost is a bit high.
This is why mines are mainly too strong in competitive play, but they can be pretty decent in pub games as well.
Lerk spikes, gorge bile + spit easily destroy mines... as a skulk i just yesterday destroyed 2 mines by just leaping close to them and survived.
Onos doesnt cares about mines and fades i dont play.
Its the one edge the marines have at the start of the game, as it is much easier for the aliens to go on the aggressive than it is the marines due to their speed.
Please stop posting about Mines being OP or broken, they are one of the most balanced elements (currently) in the game.
Please stop posting about Mines being OP or broken, they are one of the most balanced elements (currently) in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, this thread is about a month old, and it was bumped.
I'd like mines to have a little more longevity throughout the game, and be more of a choice rather than a thing you just must have in the early game, which at some point you just stop spending p-res on entirely because they hit that X minute mark and are almost worthless now. It's not so much that they are OP or UP or broken, but that they work poorly as an RTS unit. There is significant room in their design for improvement.
[edit] additionally, I think the point was quite well argued, kindly read a thread before whining for people to "stop posting". Things aren't just the way you say they are because you said so.
You say those things as if they shouldnt be allowed to happen, I thought that was the point of marines spending their pres on mines to hold areas