The changelogs have always been infamous for having notes that refer to changes that only make sense in the context of previous private builds. I don't know if that's the case here or not.
<!--quoteo(post=2055997:date=Jan 4 2013, 11:21 AM:name=current1y)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (current1y @ Jan 4 2013, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can use it quite effectively to stop or delay lone marines trying to build structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that effective at that in my opinion. Usually it's just a waste of res - maybe good for a distraction if there's a skulk about to come in, but that's about it. The cysts get shot down pretty quickly, and even quicker with a welder. Might delay it a little bit, but why not if you catch them with their pants down trying to sneak up a ninja phase gate. But it's certainly not so effective that it should be nerfed, it's barely effective at all. It's like nerfing parasite damage - 10 is too much! Parasite is OP!
Although tbh, I never really liked the structure deny effect of infestation anyway - especially if it has already started building and no longer a ghost structure.
I should say I like most of the other changes. I don't like the cyst stuff, but all the other things are welcome changes, especially the fade buff. I'm on the fence about weapons/armour upgrade costs though.
I honestly like pretty much all these changes except
-the GL nerf, that thing needs to be reworked completely, but until that happens, it isn't very powerful as is -I was hoping they would find a better way to adjust fades than just a straight health buff
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shhhiii, JP+FT will clean the mess faster than Mr. Propper!
<!--quoteo(post=2055938:date=Jan 4 2013, 06:27 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 4 2013, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->armour 1 doesn't even do anything despite for whatever reason most commanders insist on still researching it, now it will be a magnet for bad commanders like sentries are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like your other points but I dislike this notion that armor 1 is useless, it turns marines from 3 bites to 4 bites, in terms of pub gaming or even competitive gaming thats extra time that can turn around close battles for new and vet player alike
Whoops Edit: after simple addition one can see this is not true,
Box Standard Marine: 160 Health Dies to: 1 parasite + 2 direct bites (160 damage), 1 glancing + 2 direct bites (175 damage), 3 direct bites (225 damage)
with armor 1 you put the pressure on the skulks to have to exactly land all 3 bites on the marine to stay at the same effectiveness
Armor 1 Marine: 200 Health Dies to: 3 direct bites (225 damage)
but I suppose the message I meant to say was that in all terms of practicality the skulk will never land all 3 direct hits every single time and armor 1 will give the marine team a superior advantage regardless, ignoring armor 1 to jump to weapons 3 is a pretty bad decision when fades roll around and two shot all of your marines
breaker breaker. come in earth. this is rocket ship 27. aliens ######ed over the carbonator on engine number 4. im gonna try to re-######ulate it and land on juniper. and hopefully they got some space weed. over.
<!--quoteo(post=2055935:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:10 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 4 2013, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell no ! THis is killng infestation inertia, allowing NS1 like instant area control by marines. This is messing with essential game mechanics and feel here.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
I'm hearing the nerf bat hitting several things.. it makes a funny noise.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro--><b><i>O Cysts now start with 25 health (down from 100)</i></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If you're going to drop the cyst health down to 25 (100 was decently pop-able when the cyst was first dropped), then does it have the same health when it becomes mature that it does now (when it's mature)? That just makes me want to spam Nutrient Mist all over the place just to keep my Cysts from being slaughtered (Nutrient Mist costs 3 tres, by the way). I just think this was hit a bit too hard. Maybe 50 would have done it instead of 25 seeing as how one bullet from a w0 rifle is 10 (3 bullets) and a pistol is 25 (essentially 1 bullet). If you have a decent team even in pubs it would take you no time to locate the alien expansion and zap it early game. GG FLAMETHROWERS
Just some numbers to consider when looking at this change.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I assume this is to make up for bad Cyst performance? Corners and height differences are still a crap shoot when placing them though. This would be a bit more enticing if that was fixed instead.. So now if you place a Cyst in a bad spot you're automatically screwed out of being able to recover that chain if your Cyst got caught in a too big of a terrain different or a crappy map bug (like throughout Mineshaft).
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
So you're allowing Marines to have a greater ninja capability to more inexperienced commanders who hardly drop Cysts in uncovered corners of the map already. This just make it a bit more difficult for Aliens to keep Marines out of fully infested areas since the UI is already cluttered with notifications of players under attack (I would hope so, otherwise I'd be wondering what the hell my team is doing). A structure under attack is so incredibly vague when Marines are pushing elsewhere. This is situation-ally horrible, to be honest as a commander. Doesn't give enough warning let alone time (in a pub it takes an ungodly amount of time for most of the team to react) for Aliens to counter before Phase Gate is already built. GG FLAMETHROWERS
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Removed Res While Dead (want to try this first before addressing lifeform explosion)</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Cool. Now we'll all have Fades at the same time again. :D
Even with Res for Kills down to something minuscule like .25 for a Marine/Skulk it wouldn't give better players that big of an advantage, but still create variety in the lifeform explosion and when weapons appear on the field. You'd have to kill a hefty 8 skulks for a 2 pres advantage.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Changed marine armor and damage upgrade costs from 15/25/35 to 20/30/40</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm a bit leery on this one, but I'd have to play it to see how it pans out. I can already see that upgrades will be delayed a bit while giving Aliens time to expand and upgrade.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Upgrading Whips, Shifts and Shades to get their higher abilities costs 10 instead of 15</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Thank you I guess? Upgrading those things kind of take a back seat when you have Leap and other T2 upgrades to finish first before you do anything.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Grenade launcher damage radius reduced from 8 to 6</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Now you'll have to be extra accurate to spam your team mate's feet and when hitting spread out structures. Combine that with a slow reload time and in a big battle.. you're easy pickin's if you don't have back and spam from behind your team. I think this is the wrong approach to an otherwise already spammy weapon.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Second early IP may become the new trend and super late upgrades to the already weaker team. Is this to help with keeping the Alien expansion from being hopelessly murdered early game? Just feels like numbers are being shifted around to counter the other nerf swings in this update.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Nano-shield cooldown increased from 10 to 12</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Can't really comment on this one. I like spamming keys on cooldowns though, gets my APM high.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O EMP cooldown reduced from 8 to 6</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Only used on Onos on base rushes?
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b><i>O EMP now takes 65% of alien energy instead of 50%</i></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Radius is still 6.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b><i>O Fade health increased from 250 to 300</i></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
About time, though would have liked an addition slight armor change considering that only 50 health won't do you much good.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Mine health/armor reduced from 80/10 to 60/10</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Two less parasites to kill Mines. Looks like we'll have to find more places to tuck mines into so that Aliens will get a surprise. 15/3 = waste of res already.
Just my 2¢.
Oh and a penny for you, Gliss: <!--quoteo(post=2055949:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:41 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 4 2013, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wanted to filter the public opinion strictly for balance mod changes because the public will realistically never see these patches. a lot of the "but aliens are already winning! /" posts could be avoided while discussing the merit of each change individually as it relates to fundamental game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By having the thread in the competitive section of the forums you really made it inaccessible to nearly everyone. Good job.
No-res-while-dead has always felt like a clunky mechanic which works at cross-purposes to the other game mechanics. Wonder why they decided not to go with it (if it's not a typo.)
I mean if there's no-res-while-dead but I get resources for killing enemy structures and units, then that's perfectly fine because it rewards intended behavior (if you die a lot but accomplish a lot each life, you're rewarded.)
Alternatively you could allow res-while-dead, but not give resources for accomplishments.
But to simply penalize death without rewarding accomplishments is just a bad system for NS2. It encourages the type of play which hurts your team's overall performance.
Basically if I'm a death-heavy marine with tons of Extractor kills, should I be massively resource penalized because I have the most deaths on the team -- in spite of topping the scoreboard and probably making the largest meaningful contribution to my team winning? Same question goes for a skulk who devastates the enemy team with tons of kills and extractor kills. I die a lot, but often double or triple the next highest player on my team in terms of score or kills. Should I be penalized?
I'm an aggressive player on alien team when I'm a skulk since I have nothing to lose. I usually rack up a lot more deaths than all my teammates but I also have 4 x the number of kills. I love being punished for being aggressive and spending more time being dead. /sarcasm
O Cysts now start with 25 health (down from 100) O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters) O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)
So, what you're saying is...marines will be able to deny alien resource nodes by instantly killing the infestation around them.
What the point of preventing marines from building on infestation if they can instantly remove it? Whats the point of having alien structures rely on infestation, if infestation can be instantly destroyed?
Why can infestation be removed instantly, but cant be rebuilt instantly?
What is the point of this change other than a roundabout way of granting marines better map control?
O Removed Res While Dead (want to try this first before addressing lifeform explosion)
Why? Was this a problem? Did this unbalance things somehow? What does this fix?
O Changed marine armor and damage upgrade costs from 15/25/35 to 20/30/40 O Upgrading Whips, Shifts and Shades to get their higher abilities costs 10 instead of 15
Good job, I guess. I'm not sure why this was needed though.
O Grenade launcher damage radius reduced from 8 to 6
I dont think the blast radius of the GL was ever fundamentally part of the problem with the weapon. Thanks though, I guess.
O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9 O Nano-shield cooldown increased from 10 to 12
Not sure marines needed the nerf, but alright?
O EMP cooldown reduced from 8 to 6 O EMP now takes 65% of alien energy instead of 50%
An 8 second Cooldown and the 50% energy effect weren't whats causing players to overlook this ability. Its that its a pain to use, for negligible benefit, and extremely situational.
O Fade health increased from 250 to 300
Good?
O Mine health/armor reduced from 80/10 to 60/10
Because mines needed to be easier for lerks and gorges to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=2056169:date=Jan 4 2013, 10:56 PM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Jan 4 2013, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I assume this is to make up for the Cyst nerf? It does make the cooldown in dropping Cysts understandable since you're now saving a bit of res by dropping less Cysts. Corners and height differences are still a crap shoot when placing them though. This would be a bit more enticing if that was fixed..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually another big cyst nerf. It means a cyst can't be placed near another other cysts.
<!--quoteo(post=2056176:date=Jan 4 2013, 11:11 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 4 2013, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean if there's no-res-while-dead but I get resources for killing enemy structures and units, then that's perfectly fine because it rewards intended behavior (if you die a lot but accomplish a lot each life, you're rewarded.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't, everyone get their res from your own teams res towers. No more, no less. The numbers that pop up in the middle of your screen when you get the last bite/shot/swing/weld or build tick (which comes down to nothing but luck and randomness) is score only, but that's all that's you need to influence player behaviour (and NS2 doesn't do enough of this).
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2056186:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:41 PM:name=lwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lwf @ Jan 4 2013, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's actually another big cyst nerf. It means a cyst can't be placed near another other cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had a chance to play the mod extensively on a public server today, on both sides and in all roles.
I didn't notice any problems with the cyst mechanic changes. It felt more satisfying as marine to deny the alien commander territory without getting bored by wasting ammo against the environment. And the alien commander was quicker to understand that he has not much of a future to get cysts into our territory without getting backed up by his Skulks. As khammander did I never run into troubles with cysting into some place. If marines were there, I didn't go for it unless the rest of my team was already in to create a diversion. This change feels pretty good as it is right now. The increased minimum distance wasn't making trouble either since I was never spamming cysts that close in the first place. It surely helps to reduce the PvE aspect of marines against certain khammanders, though. Not sure if the instant infestation removal was in the version I played, so I can't comment on it. Never noticed anything like this in the matches. Some people here are overreacting about it, though. A good khammander will place the cysts in spots where they can't be shot immediately from the outside. The Whips that I place for defence are always based on infestation from cysts that are covered by solid objects from the entrance view.
Nor sure if res while dead was active. I noticed three or four Fades at once in a match at some time, but our marines could still deal with it. Not killing them but at least holding the location easily and forcing them to retreat. The Onos died sooner than the Fades.
The marine upgrade cost increase was a bit unexpected but not that hard to deal with, though I found myself to not go for lvl 3 upgrades until pretty late in the game. It made it more attractive to research other stuff like Flamethrowers first and to wait with the upgrades until we had enough spare res in the end. It sets you quite a bit back in the beginning though if you play with a team of pubbers who need those upgrades to stand a chance against Skulks. Luckily did we do fine for quite some time into the match without any upgrades at all.
The reduced cost for the alien structure upgrades is nice, but I didn't really pay attention. Most of them are too much micromanagement or not really useful, so I don't use them anyway. And I am not going for a Whip upgrade before I swim in res anyway and everything else is researched.
Marine respawn time increase seems quite situational in it's effect. It definitely encourages marines to stay alive longer rather and discourages mindless Phase Gate zerging. It also makes a third IP and option that you really have to consider at some point in the game. All in all it gets closer to the egg lock problem that aliens can get into. It can make marines really vulnerable early game to alien rushes, though. If you don't build a second IP at the start of the game, you are almost sure to lose if the aliens take their chance. Personally I'd like to maybe see a very minor HP increase for the IPs in return, to make up for the fact that a Skulk can chew longer on an IP before the marine can spawn from it.
Didn't play Fade today, so I can't comment on the health buff. The Fades that I encountered still died pretty easily to lvl 3 Shotguns, so I am fine with it not being all that OP.
The change to mines is probably not making much of a difference for Lerks and Gorges. And Skulks were never good at mine sweeping to begin with, since you run out of parasite energy quickly if you try to take it out that way.
All in all nice changes, didn't notice anything really broken.
Cyst starting HP nerf is great. You should not be able to empty marine clips by spamming cysts. Now that they die from a couple rifle shots, khamm is going to take a HUGE res loss if he intends to force cyst anywhere. Good change.
Cyst minimum range increase is bad. It simply makes placing cysts awkward. I have to think in circles to get a cyst into a particular spot. Not good. Maybe try 4 meters instead of 6?
If you dont see a problem with no pRes when dead, you shouldnt even post on these forums. It is/was the single worst mechanic in this game to date, if you want slower lifeform timings then lower the pRes rate. All no pres when dead accomplishes is penalizing players for playing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2056169:date=Jan 5 2013, 08:56 AM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Jan 5 2013, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Changed marine armor and damage upgrade costs from 15/25/35 to 20/30/40</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I'm a bit leery on this one, but I'd have to play it to see how it pans out. I can already see that upgrades will be delayed a bit while giving Aliens time to expand and upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this was more to address ease of upgrading when you're stuck on low number of rt's. We're only talking 5 extra tres per level, which is about +15-20 extra seconds for every WxAx level if you're holding 4+ rt. Would hope to see armour/weapon upgrade times reduced slightly as well by =~10 secs so that the change really only affects teams with bad res situations in the first place.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Second early IP may become the new trend and super late upgrades to the already weaker team. Is this to help with keeping the Alien expansion from being hopelessly murdered early game? Just feels like numbers are being shifted around to counter the other nerf swings in this update.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't know why this was included without a corresponding alien spawn wave tweak, that was the idea behind this one anyway. Both teams spawn too fast. As for early 2nd ip, I think it'll only become another viable option in pubs mostly, with mines first still being dominant.
Everyone is going on about the usual changes but as for the EMP change, I would like it to automatically activate when the MAC takes damage or an alien comes into vicinity although that could be OP. Similar to the right click autocast in blizzard RTS such as abolish magic or raise dead in W3 or zealot charge in SC2.
<!--quoteo(post=2056182:date=Jan 4 2013, 02:29 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Jan 4 2013, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O Cysts now start with 25 health (down from 100) O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters) O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)
So, what you're saying is...marines will be able to deny alien resource nodes by instantly killing the infestation around them.
What the point of preventing marines from building on infestation if they can instantly remove it? Whats the point of having alien structures rely on infestation, if infestation can be instantly destroyed?
Why can infestation be removed instantly, but cant be rebuilt instantly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah? Marines can't build an RT when aliens are present. Aliens shouldn't be able to build when Marines are in an area too, at ALL stages of the game. 25 might be too much but it's definitely something to tweak. A smart alien commander at the moment won't be effected by this anyways. He will cyst to his safest natural and have his players in position accordingly.
Because if you've been in the competitive games lately you'd know that currently Aliens laugh in Marine faces as they spam cysts into Marine controlled rooms during mid to late game with basically no downside and Marines don't have time to use 10 rounds/50 rounds per cysts or sit around with a welder doing "cyst duty" further increasing the viability of the infamous "delay" until tech explosion alien tactic. And as the game goes on, they put about 10 cysts around your natural RTs before taking them down so you have no chance in hell of rebuilding them without a HUGE delay.
It's pretty broken. You're denying Marine RTs and zones without really committing any players to it or really much resource/time. Me no likey.
Not to mention of course, cyst spam gives massive FPS loss, making the game less enjoyable for everyone.
And in addition with no planning or skill at all, you could cyst up to Marines that were in progress of building something, have aliens engage the Marines.. then they can't build the structure once the infestation is on it. Meaning even if the Marines won the engagement they would still be delayed in their objective to build a phase gate, RT or whatever. Good riddance.
<!--quoteo(post=2056232:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:07 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Jan 4 2013, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, yeah? Marines can't build an RT when aliens are present. Aliens shouldn't be able to build when Marines are in an area too, at ALL stages of the game. 25 might be too much but it's definitely something to tweak. A smart alien commander at the moment won't be effected by this anyways. He will cyst to his safest natural and have his players in position accordingly.
Because if you've been in the competitive games lately you'd know that currently Aliens laugh in Marine faces as they spam cysts into Marine controlled rooms during mid to late game with basically no downside and Marines don't have time to use 10 rounds/50 rounds per cysts or sit around with a welder doing "cyst duty" further increasing the viability of the infamous "delay" until tech explosion alien tactic. And as the game goes on, they put about 10 cysts around your natural RTs before taking them down so you have no chance in hell of rebuilding them without a HUGE delay.
It's pretty broken. You're denying Marine RTs and zones without really committing any players to it or really much resource/time. Me no likey.
Not to mention of course, cyst spam gives massive FPS loss, making the game less enjoyable for everyone.
And in addition with no planning or skill at all, you could cyst up to Marines that were in progress of building something, have aliens engage the Marines.. then they can't build the structure once the infestation is on it. Meaning even if the Marines won the engagement they would still be delayed in their objective to build a phase gate, RT or whatever. Good riddance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how does enabling marines to do effectively the same thing to aliens solve this problem?
As well, I understand your reasoning, but that doesnt really answer my question does it? Whats the point of having the infestation mechanic if you makes it a negligible effect?
The only thing it really does then is act as an arbitrary means of expanding alien territory control, which could be done more elegantly by other means.
You've enabled the means for marines to easily harass alien territory in an attempt to prevent them from doing the same to marines. What good are whips when you can instantly de-infest the area they're sitting on?
Do whatever you will with it locklear, but these seem like poor solutions to the problem you're describing.
Edit: Also, was there something preventing alien commanders from doing this when I was playing competitive games? It's not like that's some new, inspired tactic.
you are both correct. the cyst changes are to address the "cyst-spam" issues that are currently plaguing marines. as Dragon pointed out, it's something that affects basic public play to high level competitive games. however, I agree with RedDragon. the "instantly disappearing infestation" is perhaps one of the most worrying changes of all. infestation is supposed to be one of the most basic mechanics of the game, and here we are post 1.0 deciding to lower starting HP to 25 and have infestation be instantly removed. that speaks volumes about the mechanic fundamentally, and the extent of the band-aids upon band-aids of the balance process. this is a very short-sighted change that fixes one small issue while ignoring the impact on overall gameplay. on top of that, it's aesthetically unappealing to have the crawling infestation just instantly disappear. it feels quite "cheap".
basically all these drastic changes swinging from one direction to the next gives a clear picture as to how these mechanics really didn't even belong in the first place.
imagine if they implemented another shotgun, and had to adjust its values so that it wouldn't be too much stronger than the current one, but wouldn't be weaker, but would still be used, etc. - at which point do you realize that it's just not necessary and doesn't fit?
<!--quoteo(post=2056021:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:05 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 4 2013, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it was put back in, in the previous test build. It would seem they have taken it back out in this latest test build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is correct, unfortunately. when I read the changelog initially, I thought it said "Removed '<b>No</b> Res While Dead'". the wording is slightly confusing so I tested it; Aliens do not receive res while dead in the balance mod (same as live).
this is very detrimental to gameplay design. regardless of what the current state of the game is in terms of lifeform explosions, having res while dead is the right long-term solution. it is not a good game decision to force players to play passively and be afraid of dying, especially for fodder units that are likely to die such as Skulks. the only penalties that should be associated with dying are loss of map control / lifeform. associating any extra kinds of penalties other than that is bad for overall player satisfaction. if there is an issue with timings (for example, Lerks always coming out prior to the second Hive), then it should be sorted out by adjusting other variables while leaving this alone.
the increased upgrade costs I was opposed to initially (due a knee-jerk reaction of winrates!), but after reading other posts it makes sense. slowing down marine teching on few harvesters is the right decision overall, there needs to be some semblance of structure in the RTS aspect of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2056256:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:58 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 4 2013, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is correct, unfortunately. when I read the changelog initially, I thought it said "Removed '<b>No</b> Res While Dead'". the wording is slightly confusing so I tested it; Aliens do not receive res while dead in the balance mod (same as live).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's really sad to hear. I hope it's some kind of mistake.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2056207:date=Jan 4 2013, 06:17 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 4 2013, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this was more to address ease of upgrading when you're stuck on low number of rt's. We're only talking 5 extra tres per level, which is about +15-20 extra seconds for every WxAx level if you're holding 4+ rt. Would hope to see armour/weapon upgrade times reduced slightly as well by =~10 secs so that the change really only affects teams with bad res situations in the first place.
Don't know why this was included without a corresponding alien spawn wave tweak, that was the idea behind this one anyway. Both teams spawn too fast. As for early 2nd ip, I think it'll only become another viable option in pubs mostly, with mines first still being dominant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 extra tres per level adds up as you're getting upgrades. Like I said: I'm leery on it because it depends so much on the situation you're in as a team, and a lot of the time in pubs you're not in such a good one right off the bat.
As far as the spawning.. more players you have the more time you have to fix yourself a drink in between deaths with only 1-2 IP's (essentially forcing commander to get more IP's over upgrades).
<!--quoteo(post=2056256:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:58 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 4 2013, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->basically all these drastic changes swinging from one direction to the next gives a clear picture as to how these mechanics really didn't even belong in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*doesn't know how to be balanced without going off the deep end
<!--quoteo(post=2056270:date=Jan 4 2013, 06:15 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 4 2013, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK is on a few servers now (voogru) and it's absolutely terrible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2056270:date=Jan 5 2013, 12:15 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 5 2013, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK is on a few servers now (voogru) and it's absolutely terrible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because its set too high.
<!--quoteo(post=2056249:date=Jan 4 2013, 04:40 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Jan 4 2013, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So how does enabling marines to do effectively the same thing to aliens solve this problem?
As well, I understand your reasoning, but that doesnt really answer my question does it? Whats the point of having the infestation mechanic if you makes it a negligible effect?
The only thing it really does then is act as an arbitrary means of expanding alien territory control, which could be done more elegantly by other means.
You've enabled the means for marines to easily harass alien territory in an attempt to prevent them from doing the same to marines. What good are whips when you can instantly de-infest the area they're sitting on?
Do whatever you will with it locklear, but these seem like poor solutions to the problem you're describing.
Edit: Also, was there something preventing alien commanders from doing this when I was playing competitive games? It's not like that's some new, inspired tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think that's the point. Infestation serves as a poorly implemented mechanic at it's core and is just for mostly aesthetics.
Whips shouldn't exist anyways (not saying it validates the instant infestation change, I would rather it just have the receding sped up as I was discussing with someone previously).. They are a hard counter to the anti-structure weapon.. it's pretty /facepalm. In a game that is supposed to be soft counters that doesn't make much sense to me. People say ARCs but Marines shouldn't be forced to use ARCs every single game because the alien commander decides to build a whip + 3 crags. The grenade launcher is already pretty bad with it's physics and should be soft countered by a skulk/fade attacking him.. not a whip that is being healed by a gorge and 3 crags.
So the current implementation of GL vs whip/crag critical mass leaves Marines with two options, ARCs.. and dare I say it.. the Exoskeleton.
Well, to be honest it was not prevalent when you were playing. It's a more recent thing that I've witnessed with many games on how ridiculous it gets to deal with as the game goes on for Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2056270:date=Jan 4 2013, 08:15 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 4 2013, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK is on a few servers now (voogru) and it's absolutely terrible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah.. Voogru has a horrible implementation of RFK. The worst part is Voogru doesn't even show up as a yellow modded server. It is a white server on the browser and this confuses people when they join only to get crushed by a fade or onos in the first 5 minutes.
Last time I played there it was only 1 pres per kill and petit still pulled a 5-6min onos, with a couple others pulling onos ~2min later.
It might work *ok* at 6v6 but even at 1pres it still completely breaks pub play. Even with other changes to help balance it out it's still just not worth it imo since it's always going to be a mechanic that just makes the strong stronger.
<!--quoteo(post=2056280:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:27 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 4 2013, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last time I played there it was only 1 pres per kill and petit still pulled a 5-6min onos, with a couple others pulling onos ~2min later.
It might work *ok* at 6v6 but even at 1pres it still completely breaks pub play. Even with other changes to help balance it out it's still just not worth it imo since it's always going to be a case of making the strong stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it shouldn't even be 1? It should be tested at a much lower number. Say .25 for example.
Comments
It's not that effective at that in my opinion. Usually it's just a waste of res - maybe good for a distraction if there's a skulk about to come in, but that's about it. The cysts get shot down pretty quickly, and even quicker with a welder. Might delay it a little bit, but why not if you catch them with their pants down trying to sneak up a ninja phase gate. But it's certainly not so effective that it should be nerfed, it's barely effective at all. It's like nerfing parasite damage - 10 is too much! Parasite is OP!
Although tbh, I never really liked the structure deny effect of infestation anyway - especially if it has already started building and no longer a ghost structure.
I should say I like most of the other changes. I don't like the cyst stuff, but all the other things are welcome changes, especially the fade buff. I'm on the fence about weapons/armour upgrade costs though.
-the GL nerf, that thing needs to be reworked completely, but until that happens, it isn't very powerful as is
-I was hoping they would find a better way to adjust fades than just a straight health buff
Shhhiii, JP+FT will clean the mess faster than Mr. Propper!
I like your other points but I dislike this notion that armor 1 is useless, it turns marines from 3 bites to 4 bites, in terms of pub gaming or even competitive gaming thats extra time that can turn around close battles for new and vet player alike
Whoops
Edit: after simple addition one can see this is not true,
Box Standard Marine: 160 Health
Dies to: 1 parasite + 2 direct bites (160 damage), 1 glancing + 2 direct bites (175 damage), 3 direct bites (225 damage)
with armor 1 you put the pressure on the skulks to have to exactly land all 3 bites on the marine to stay at the same effectiveness
Armor 1 Marine: 200 Health
Dies to: 3 direct bites (225 damage)
but I suppose the message I meant to say was that in all terms of practicality the skulk will never land all 3 direct hits every single time and armor 1 will give the marine team a superior advantage regardless, ignoring armor 1 to jump to weapons 3 is a pretty bad decision when fades roll around and two shot all of your marines
Hell no ! THis is killng infestation inertia, allowing NS1 like instant area control by marines.
This is messing with essential game mechanics and feel here.
So no thanks, I'll pass on that one.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro--><b><i>O Cysts now start with 25 health (down from 100)</i></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If you're going to drop the cyst health down to 25 (100 was decently pop-able when the cyst was first dropped), then does it have the same health when it becomes mature that it does now (when it's mature)? That just makes me want to spam Nutrient Mist all over the place just to keep my Cysts from being slaughtered (Nutrient Mist costs 3 tres, by the way). I just think this was hit a bit too hard. Maybe 50 would have done it instead of 25 seeing as how one bullet from a w0 rifle is 10 (3 bullets) and a pistol is 25 (essentially 1 bullet). If you have a decent team even in pubs it would take you no time to locate the alien expansion and zap it early game. GG FLAMETHROWERS
kCystUnconnectedDamage = 12 (dmg/second)
kCystMaturationTime = 90 (seconds)
kMatureCystHealth = 550
Just some numbers to consider when looking at this change.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I assume this is to make up for bad Cyst performance? Corners and height differences are still a crap shoot when placing them though. This would be a bit more enticing if that was fixed instead.. So now if you place a Cyst in a bad spot you're automatically screwed out of being able to recover that chain if your Cyst got caught in a too big of a terrain different or a crappy map bug (like throughout Mineshaft).
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
So you're allowing Marines to have a greater ninja capability to more inexperienced commanders who hardly drop Cysts in uncovered corners of the map already. This just make it a bit more difficult for Aliens to keep Marines out of fully infested areas since the UI is already cluttered with notifications of players under attack (I would hope so, otherwise I'd be wondering what the hell my team is doing). A structure under attack is so incredibly vague when Marines are pushing elsewhere. This is situation-ally horrible, to be honest as a commander. Doesn't give enough warning let alone time (in a pub it takes an ungodly amount of time for most of the team to react) for Aliens to counter before Phase Gate is already built. GG FLAMETHROWERS
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Removed Res While Dead (want to try this first before addressing lifeform explosion)</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Cool. Now we'll all have Fades at the same time again. :D
Even with Res for Kills down to something minuscule like .25 for a Marine/Skulk it wouldn't give better players that big of an advantage, but still create variety in the lifeform explosion and when weapons appear on the field. You'd have to kill a hefty 8 skulks for a 2 pres advantage.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Changed marine armor and damage upgrade costs from 15/25/35 to 20/30/40</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm a bit leery on this one, but I'd have to play it to see how it pans out. I can already see that upgrades will be delayed a bit while giving Aliens time to expand and upgrade.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Upgrading Whips, Shifts and Shades to get their higher abilities costs 10 instead of 15</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Thank you I guess? Upgrading those things kind of take a back seat when you have Leap and other T2 upgrades to finish first before you do anything.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Grenade launcher damage radius reduced from 8 to 6</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Now you'll have to be extra accurate to spam your team mate's feet and when hitting spread out structures. Combine that with a slow reload time and in a big battle.. you're easy pickin's if you don't have back and spam from behind your team. I think this is the wrong approach to an otherwise already spammy weapon.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Second early IP may become the new trend and super late upgrades to the already weaker team. Is this to help with keeping the Alien expansion from being hopelessly murdered early game? Just feels like numbers are being shifted around to counter the other nerf swings in this update.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Nano-shield cooldown increased from 10 to 12</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Can't really comment on this one. I like spamming keys on cooldowns though, gets my APM high.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O EMP cooldown reduced from 8 to 6</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Only used on Onos on base rushes?
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b><i>O EMP now takes 65% of alien energy instead of 50%</i></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Radius is still 6.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b><i>O Fade health increased from 250 to 300</i></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
About time, though would have liked an addition slight armor change considering that only 50 health won't do you much good.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Mine health/armor reduced from 80/10 to 60/10</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Two less parasites to kill Mines. Looks like we'll have to find more places to tuck mines into so that Aliens will get a surprise. 15/3 = waste of res already.
Just my 2¢.
Oh and a penny for you, Gliss:
<!--quoteo(post=2055949:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:41 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 4 2013, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wanted to filter the public opinion strictly for balance mod changes because the public will realistically never see these patches. a lot of the "but aliens are already winning! /" posts could be avoided while discussing the merit of each change individually as it relates to fundamental game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By having the thread in the competitive section of the forums you really made it inaccessible to nearly everyone. Good job.
I mean if there's no-res-while-dead but I get resources for killing enemy structures and units, then that's perfectly fine because it rewards intended behavior (if you die a lot but accomplish a lot each life, you're rewarded.)
Alternatively you could allow res-while-dead, but not give resources for accomplishments.
But to simply penalize death without rewarding accomplishments is just a bad system for NS2. It encourages the type of play which hurts your team's overall performance.
Basically if I'm a death-heavy marine with tons of Extractor kills, should I be massively resource penalized because I have the most deaths on the team -- in spite of topping the scoreboard and probably making the largest meaningful contribution to my team winning? Same question goes for a skulk who devastates the enemy team with tons of kills and extractor kills. I die a lot, but often double or triple the next highest player on my team in terms of score or kills. Should I be penalized?
O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)
O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)
So, what you're saying is...marines will be able to deny alien resource nodes by instantly killing the infestation around them.
What the point of preventing marines from building on infestation if they can instantly remove it? Whats the point of having alien structures rely on infestation, if infestation can be instantly destroyed?
Why can infestation be removed instantly, but cant be rebuilt instantly?
What is the point of this change other than a roundabout way of granting marines better map control?
O Removed Res While Dead (want to try this first before addressing lifeform explosion)
Why? Was this a problem? Did this unbalance things somehow? What does this fix?
O Changed marine armor and damage upgrade costs from 15/25/35 to 20/30/40
O Upgrading Whips, Shifts and Shades to get their higher abilities costs 10 instead of 15
Good job, I guess. I'm not sure why this was needed though.
O Grenade launcher damage radius reduced from 8 to 6
I dont think the blast radius of the GL was ever fundamentally part of the problem with the weapon. Thanks though, I guess.
O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9
O Nano-shield cooldown increased from 10 to 12
Not sure marines needed the nerf, but alright?
O EMP cooldown reduced from 8 to 6
O EMP now takes 65% of alien energy instead of 50%
An 8 second Cooldown and the 50% energy effect weren't whats causing players to overlook this ability. Its that its a pain to use, for negligible benefit, and extremely situational.
O Fade health increased from 250 to 300
Good?
O Mine health/armor reduced from 80/10 to 60/10
Because mines needed to be easier for lerks and gorges to kill.
I assume this is to make up for the Cyst nerf? It does make the cooldown in dropping Cysts understandable since you're now saving a bit of res by dropping less Cysts. Corners and height differences are still a crap shoot when placing them though. This would be a bit more enticing if that was fixed..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually another big cyst nerf. It means a cyst can't be placed near another other cysts.
<!--quoteo(post=2056176:date=Jan 4 2013, 11:11 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 4 2013, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean if there's no-res-while-dead but I get resources for killing enemy structures and units, then that's perfectly fine because it rewards intended behavior (if you die a lot but accomplish a lot each life, you're rewarded.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't, everyone get their res from your own teams res towers. No more, no less. The numbers that pop up in the middle of your screen when you get the last bite/shot/swing/weld or build tick (which comes down to nothing but luck and randomness) is score only, but that's all that's you need to influence player behaviour (and NS2 doesn't do enough of this).
Yeah I just fixed my post; I read it wrong.
I didn't notice any problems with the cyst mechanic changes. It felt more satisfying as marine to deny the alien commander territory without getting bored by wasting ammo against the environment. And the alien commander was quicker to understand that he has not much of a future to get cysts into our territory without getting backed up by his Skulks.
As khammander did I never run into troubles with cysting into some place. If marines were there, I didn't go for it unless the rest of my team was already in to create a diversion. This change feels pretty good as it is right now. The increased minimum distance wasn't making trouble either since I was never spamming cysts that close in the first place. It surely helps to reduce the PvE aspect of marines against certain khammanders, though.
Not sure if the instant infestation removal was in the version I played, so I can't comment on it. Never noticed anything like this in the matches. Some people here are overreacting about it, though. A good khammander will place the cysts in spots where they can't be shot immediately from the outside. The Whips that I place for defence are always based on infestation from cysts that are covered by solid objects from the entrance view.
Nor sure if res while dead was active. I noticed three or four Fades at once in a match at some time, but our marines could still deal with it. Not killing them but at least holding the location easily and forcing them to retreat. The Onos died sooner than the Fades.
The marine upgrade cost increase was a bit unexpected but not that hard to deal with, though I found myself to not go for lvl 3 upgrades until pretty late in the game. It made it more attractive to research other stuff like Flamethrowers first and to wait with the upgrades until we had enough spare res in the end.
It sets you quite a bit back in the beginning though if you play with a team of pubbers who need those upgrades to stand a chance against Skulks. Luckily did we do fine for quite some time into the match without any upgrades at all.
The reduced cost for the alien structure upgrades is nice, but I didn't really pay attention. Most of them are too much micromanagement or not really useful, so I don't use them anyway. And I am not going for a Whip upgrade before I swim in res anyway and everything else is researched.
Marine respawn time increase seems quite situational in it's effect. It definitely encourages marines to stay alive longer rather and discourages mindless Phase Gate zerging. It also makes a third IP and option that you really have to consider at some point in the game. All in all it gets closer to the egg lock problem that aliens can get into.
It can make marines really vulnerable early game to alien rushes, though. If you don't build a second IP at the start of the game, you are almost sure to lose if the aliens take their chance.
Personally I'd like to maybe see a very minor HP increase for the IPs in return, to make up for the fact that a Skulk can chew longer on an IP before the marine can spawn from it.
Didn't play Fade today, so I can't comment on the health buff. The Fades that I encountered still died pretty easily to lvl 3 Shotguns, so I am fine with it not being all that OP.
The change to mines is probably not making much of a difference for Lerks and Gorges. And Skulks were never good at mine sweeping to begin with, since you run out of parasite energy quickly if you try to take it out that way.
All in all nice changes, didn't notice anything really broken.
Cyst starting HP nerf is great. You should not be able to empty marine clips by spamming cysts. Now that they die from a couple rifle shots, khamm is going to take a HUGE res loss if he intends to force cyst anywhere. Good change.
Cyst minimum range increase is bad. It simply makes placing cysts awkward. I have to think in circles to get a cyst into a particular spot. Not good. Maybe try 4 meters instead of 6?
I'm a bit leery on this one, but I'd have to play it to see how it pans out. I can already see that upgrades will be delayed a bit while giving Aliens time to expand and upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this was more to address ease of upgrading when you're stuck on low number of rt's. We're only talking 5 extra tres per level, which is about +15-20 extra seconds for every WxAx level if you're holding 4+ rt. Would hope to see armour/weapon upgrade times reduced slightly as well by =~10 secs so that the change really only affects teams with bad res situations in the first place.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><i><b>O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Second early IP may become the new trend and super late upgrades to the already weaker team. Is this to help with keeping the Alien expansion from being hopelessly murdered early game? Just feels like numbers are being shifted around to counter the other nerf swings in this update.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know why this was included without a corresponding alien spawn wave tweak, that was the idea behind this one anyway. Both teams spawn too fast. As for early 2nd ip, I think it'll only become another viable option in pubs mostly, with mines first still being dominant.
O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)
O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)
So, what you're saying is...marines will be able to deny alien resource nodes by instantly killing the infestation around them.
What the point of preventing marines from building on infestation if they can instantly remove it? Whats the point of having alien structures rely on infestation, if infestation can be instantly destroyed?
Why can infestation be removed instantly, but cant be rebuilt instantly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah? Marines can't build an RT when aliens are present. Aliens shouldn't be able to build when Marines are in an area too, at ALL stages of the game. 25 might be too much but it's definitely something to tweak. A smart alien commander at the moment won't be effected by this anyways. He will cyst to his safest natural and have his players in position accordingly.
Because if you've been in the competitive games lately you'd know that currently Aliens laugh in Marine faces as they spam cysts into Marine controlled rooms during mid to late game with basically no downside and Marines don't have time to use 10 rounds/50 rounds per cysts or sit around with a welder doing "cyst duty" further increasing the viability of the infamous "delay" until tech explosion alien tactic. And as the game goes on, they put about 10 cysts around your natural RTs before taking them down so you have no chance in hell of rebuilding them without a HUGE delay.
It's pretty broken. You're denying Marine RTs and zones without really committing any players to it or really much resource/time. Me no likey.
Not to mention of course, cyst spam gives massive FPS loss, making the game less enjoyable for everyone.
And in addition with no planning or skill at all, you could cyst up to Marines that were in progress of building something, have aliens engage the Marines.. then they can't build the structure once the infestation is on it. Meaning even if the Marines won the engagement they would still be delayed in their objective to build a phase gate, RT or whatever. Good riddance.
Because if you've been in the competitive games lately you'd know that currently Aliens laugh in Marine faces as they spam cysts into Marine controlled rooms during mid to late game with basically no downside and Marines don't have time to use 10 rounds/50 rounds per cysts or sit around with a welder doing "cyst duty" further increasing the viability of the infamous "delay" until tech explosion alien tactic. And as the game goes on, they put about 10 cysts around your natural RTs before taking them down so you have no chance in hell of rebuilding them without a HUGE delay.
It's pretty broken. You're denying Marine RTs and zones without really committing any players to it or really much resource/time. Me no likey.
Not to mention of course, cyst spam gives massive FPS loss, making the game less enjoyable for everyone.
And in addition with no planning or skill at all, you could cyst up to Marines that were in progress of building something, have aliens engage the Marines.. then they can't build the structure once the infestation is on it. Meaning even if the Marines won the engagement they would still be delayed in their objective to build a phase gate, RT or whatever. Good riddance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how does enabling marines to do effectively the same thing to aliens solve this problem?
As well, I understand your reasoning, but that doesnt really answer my question does it? Whats the point of having the infestation mechanic if you makes it a negligible effect?
The only thing it really does then is act as an arbitrary means of expanding alien territory control, which could be done more elegantly by other means.
You've enabled the means for marines to easily harass alien territory in an attempt to prevent them from doing the same to marines. What good are whips when you can instantly de-infest the area they're sitting on?
Do whatever you will with it locklear, but these seem like poor solutions to the problem you're describing.
Edit: Also, was there something preventing alien commanders from doing this when I was playing competitive games? It's not like that's some new, inspired tactic.
however, I agree with RedDragon. the "instantly disappearing infestation" is perhaps one of the most worrying changes of all. infestation is supposed to be one of the most basic mechanics of the game, and here we are post 1.0 deciding to lower starting HP to 25 and have infestation be instantly removed. that speaks volumes about the mechanic fundamentally, and the extent of the band-aids upon band-aids of the balance process. this is a very short-sighted change that fixes one small issue while ignoring the impact on overall gameplay.
on top of that, it's aesthetically unappealing to have the crawling infestation just instantly disappear. it feels quite "cheap".
basically all these drastic changes swinging from one direction to the next gives a clear picture as to how these mechanics really didn't even belong in the first place.
imagine if they implemented another shotgun, and had to adjust its values so that it wouldn't be too much stronger than the current one, but wouldn't be weaker, but would still be used, etc. - at which point do you realize that it's just not necessary and doesn't fit?
<!--quoteo(post=2056021:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:05 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 4 2013, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it was put back in, in the previous test build. It would seem they have taken it back out in this latest test build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is correct, unfortunately. when I read the changelog initially, I thought it said "Removed '<b>No</b> Res While Dead'". the wording is slightly confusing so I tested it; Aliens do not receive res while dead in the balance mod (same as live).
this is very detrimental to gameplay design. regardless of what the current state of the game is in terms of lifeform explosions, having res while dead is the right long-term solution. it is not a good game decision to force players to play passively and be afraid of dying, especially for fodder units that are likely to die such as Skulks. the only penalties that should be associated with dying are loss of map control / lifeform. associating any extra kinds of penalties other than that is bad for overall player satisfaction. if there is an issue with timings (for example, Lerks always coming out prior to the second Hive), then it should be sorted out by adjusting other variables while leaving this alone.
the increased upgrade costs I was opposed to initially (due a knee-jerk reaction of winrates!), but after reading other posts it makes sense. slowing down marine teching on few harvesters is the right decision overall, there needs to be some semblance of structure in the RTS aspect of the game.
Well that's really sad to hear. I hope it's some kind of mistake.
RFK is on a few servers now (voogru) and it's absolutely terrible
Don't know why this was included without a corresponding alien spawn wave tweak, that was the idea behind this one anyway. Both teams spawn too fast. As for early 2nd ip, I think it'll only become another viable option in pubs mostly, with mines first still being dominant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 extra tres per level adds up as you're getting upgrades. Like I said: I'm leery on it because it depends so much on the situation you're in as a team, and a lot of the time in pubs you're not in such a good one right off the bat.
As far as the spawning.. more players you have the more time you have to fix yourself a drink in between deaths with only 1-2 IP's (essentially forcing commander to get more IP's over upgrades).
<!--quoteo(post=2056256:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:58 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 4 2013, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->basically all these drastic changes swinging from one direction to the next gives a clear picture as to how these mechanics really didn't even belong in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*doesn't know how to be balanced without going off the deep end
Because it was(is) implemented extremely poorly.
Because its set too high.
Next.
As well, I understand your reasoning, but that doesnt really answer my question does it? Whats the point of having the infestation mechanic if you makes it a negligible effect?
The only thing it really does then is act as an arbitrary means of expanding alien territory control, which could be done more elegantly by other means.
You've enabled the means for marines to easily harass alien territory in an attempt to prevent them from doing the same to marines. What good are whips when you can instantly de-infest the area they're sitting on?
Do whatever you will with it locklear, but these seem like poor solutions to the problem you're describing.
Edit: Also, was there something preventing alien commanders from doing this when I was playing competitive games? It's not like that's some new, inspired tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think that's the point. Infestation serves as a poorly implemented mechanic at it's core and is just for mostly aesthetics.
Whips shouldn't exist anyways (not saying it validates the instant infestation change, I would rather it just have the receding sped up as I was discussing with someone previously).. They are a hard counter to the anti-structure weapon.. it's pretty /facepalm. In a game that is supposed to be soft counters that doesn't make much sense to me. People say ARCs but Marines shouldn't be forced to use ARCs every single game because the alien commander decides to build a whip + 3 crags. The grenade launcher is already pretty bad with it's physics and should be soft countered by a skulk/fade attacking him.. not a whip that is being healed by a gorge and 3 crags.
So the current implementation of GL vs whip/crag critical mass leaves Marines with two options, ARCs.. and dare I say it.. the Exoskeleton.
Well, to be honest it was not prevalent when you were playing. It's a more recent thing that I've witnessed with many games on how ridiculous it gets to deal with as the game goes on for Marines.
Yeah.. Voogru has a horrible implementation of RFK. The worst part is Voogru doesn't even show up as a yellow modded server. It is a white server on the browser and this confuses people when they join only to get crushed by a fade or onos in the first 5 minutes.
Last time I played there it was only 1 pres per kill and petit still pulled a 5-6min onos, with a couple others pulling onos ~2min later.
It might work *ok* at 6v6 but even at 1pres it still completely breaks pub play. Even with other changes to help balance it out it's still just not worth it imo since it's always going to be a mechanic that just makes the strong stronger.
It might work *ok* at 6v6 but even at 1pres it still completely breaks pub play. Even with other changes to help balance it out it's still just not worth it imo since it's always going to be a case of making the strong stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it shouldn't even be 1? It should be tested at a much lower number. Say .25 for example.