<!--quoteo(post=2053174:date=Dec 29 2012, 07:47 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 29 2012, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->W:L ratios are too simplistic and are flawed if used as the only source of balance. UWE, rightly so, have chosen to also consider the "fun to play" element.
I, like VittuLima, find marines much easier to play and a much higher level of enjoyment with much less effort. This is confirmed by the myriad of posts in the lead up to going "retail" from people asking/begging veteran players to go alien so as to avoid a total alien noob stomping. Why? Because marines are easier to play, quicker to pick up and all round more fun to play. This led to the swing in stats with almost 0 balance changes as experienced aliens where taking on not only noob marines but noob marine comms. This is why UWE has persisted with little buffs to marines as they know that the fun factor in aliens is missing.
Aliens are less fun to play, sure its fun to pub stomp noob marines but play against an equally skilled marine team and playing aliens becomes terribly frustrating as you constantly die whilst perceptually barely inflicting much damage. This continues right up to the point you lose or that marines start recycling as you have somehow won (depriving you of any real amount of time feeling like your winning).
Win Loss ratios can be tainted by all sorts of things and as such aiming for fun to play is much more important. I will continue to play a game on a side which loses if I have fun whilst playing....shooting skulks, gorges, lerks fades and even onos is fun.
Why do we see marines turtle late game? Because even though you have lost its still fun and you will get a few more kills (the reason we play a FPS is to get frags). So that means that your belief that people wont play when they lose 90% is wrong, a lot of people will play when they know they are 100% certain to lose. This is why late game turtles are such a problem for aliens to deal with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rofl dude, you like VittuLima should go play some competitive matches pls and stop joining 12v12 servers. Then please come back and tell me how easy marines and how hard aliens are. Marines are over all harder in every aspect thats exactly why theyre losing more. Alien gameplay is to easy and to forgiving, you dont have to do half as much teamplay as marines have too to be successfull. Also Aliens basically just need to wait until they have got enough res for Onos and harras Marines, while Marines need to heavy damage Alien economy to even stand a chance not to get rolled by a bunch of oni. So you have 1 Side who needs to group 24/7, build and defend Structures and being the agressor at the same time. While aliens just need to keep Marines busy while Kham builds everything himself.
Also your "fun" aspect is a subjective point of view. Losing is frustraiting for both sides, ever played marine when your team cant hold a single extractor? Is this more fun to you? Aliens are actually way more fun to play, you dont feel pressure if you play them. While as a Marine you have to be carefull entire game and completely outplay enemy team to win. As you see "fun" is a subjective point of view and balance is objective. Thats why i go with balance, players will decide themself what is fun for them.
Turtles only happen with awfull players. No, noone will play a game where he know he will lose. Its BORING. Its exactly like watching a film where you know the end over and over again. You will lose any joy about your victories, that if completely antifun.
<!--quoteo(post=2051422:date=Dec 26 2012, 01:25 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 26 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the sides are asymmetrical. Onos does not equal EXO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of players don't understand that NS is not chess, each team play with different pieces at differrent costs and on a different subjective map.
<!--quoteo(post=2051425:date=Dec 26 2012, 01:26 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 26 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But why not, both cost 75 res. If EXOs are weaker then Onos why not make them cost 65 instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking down onos or exo cost would shorten time for the other side to get ready for middle game.
Yet, a single gun EXO is still formidable whith proper support and is only 50 res.
<!--quoteo(post=2053273:date=Dec 31 2012, 01:27 AM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 31 2012, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rofl dude, you like VittuLima should go play some competitive matches pls and stop joining 12v12 servers. Then please come back and tell me how easy marines and how hard aliens are. Marines are over all harder in every aspect thats exactly why theyre losing more. Alien gameplay is to easy and to forgiving, you dont have to do half as much teamplay as marines have too to be successfull. Also Aliens basically just need to wait until they have got enough res for Onos and harras Marines, while Marines need to heavy damage Alien economy to even stand a chance not to get rolled by a bunch of oni. So you have 1 Side who needs to group 24/7, build and defend Structures and being the agressor at the same time. While aliens just need to keep Marines busy while Kham builds everything himself.
Also your "fun" aspect is a subjective point of view. Losing is frustraiting for both sides, ever played marine when your team cant hold a single extractor? Is this more fun to you? Aliens are actually way more fun to play, you dont feel pressure if you play them. While as a Marine you have to be carefull entire game and completely outplay enemy team to win. As you see "fun" is a subjective point of view and balance is objective. Thats why i go with balance, players will decide themself what is fun for them.
Turtles only happen with awfull players. No, noone will play a game where he know he will lose. Its BORING. Its exactly like watching a film where you know the end over and over again. You will lose any joy about your victories, that if completely antifun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seen plenty of competetive and high player skilled games. Simply look at the W:L ratios just before things went retail, was close to 50-50 (49-51 marines way) and the player base was much more leveled on skill.
Lets take your point about the experience when your team only has 1 extractor. Lets remember one of the goals of the team was to make things "fun to play" not simply achieve a win loss ratio. Please tell me which side is more fun to play when you have only 1 extractor. For aliens means no leap, bile etc, the longer you hold out the lesser your chances, if you went crag first you can get a small buff, though you do have to re-evolve after spawning. When you only have 1 RT then you are liekly having the other team pushing in and shooting eggs. This now makes that crag hive a hindrance due to lack of ability to buy egg or spawn point around a corner. Basically for aliens its simply spawn run die..wait 16 seconds.....spawn run die....wait 16 seconds.....spawn die....wait 16 seconds.....spawn die...wait 16 seconds. If you are lucky you may get a 1 kill. You will have totally gimped fades and lerks, no spores or blink etc basically your just spawn and die.
For marines 1 res node mean no exo's or jp's, however you can still tech up with weapons and armour. The longer you hold out the better the chance you have, you can slowly tech up over 2-3 tech points (just look at the counter shade first strategy or playing for tech points not res nodes (which are sooo ns1 ;))). Sure 1 res node is going to be slow but atleast your comm has upgrades for your attack and defence (look at the drawbacks aliens have in their choices - (choose either celerity& adrenaline or carapace & regen or silence & camo), basically they can get a mild armour boost). Further to this you can sit back and simply shoot at aliens as they come through the door, maintaining maximum advantage of ranged attack. Almost every hive can facilitate a drawn out turtle from marines, these can be successful counter attacks...if an alien side is poorly co-ordinated against an organised marine team then its simply a case of tech then push as a group group fire of 5 marines can easily take down a hive...still leaves 2 plus comm to be off doing other things on a 16 player server.
Compare the playing experience, remember you need 8+ people wanting to play the other side to get your game happening, if they are not having fun then they wont hang around. Alien game play is very frustrating, marines have multiple instagib devices for your base lifeform and the one 99% of the world will spend the majority of their time as. Marines even when your losing you feel like your winning, heck if your over being beaten people recycle or f4...aliens cant do this and have to stick out being spawn camped and egg locked. Aliens spend far more game time waiting to spawn that marines....I dont think sitting in a spawn queue is exactly fun do you? Having endured all that if an alien has saved up 75 res he should have a decent bloody lifeform that is pretty damn devastating, assuming 2+ hives, and half decent otherwise. This is pretty much what we have.
<!--quoteo(post=2053280:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seen plenty of competetive and high player skilled games. Simply look at the W:L ratios just before things went retail, was close to 50-50 (49-51 marines way) and the player base was much more leveled on skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont watch them, get a group and play some serious matches yourself. Then you will notice how broken Aliens in organized playing are. Marines look way easier than they are if you watch players with aimbot like skills playing them.
<!--quoteo(post=2053280:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For marines 1 res node mean no exo's or jp's, however you can still tech up with weapons and armour. The longer you hold out the better the chance you have, you can slowly tech up over 2-3 tech points (just look at the counter shade first strategy or playing for tech points not res nodes (which are sooo ns1 ;))). Sure 1 res node is going to be slow but atleast your comm has upgrades for your attack and defence (look at the drawbacks aliens have in their choices - (choose either celerity& adrenaline or carapace & regen or silence & camo), basically they can get a mild armour boost). Further to this you can sit back and simply shoot at aliens as they come through the door, maintaining maximum advantage of ranged attack. Almost every hive can facilitate a drawn out turtle from marines, these can be successful counter attacks...if an alien side is poorly co-ordinated against an organised marine team then its simply a case of tech then push as a group group fire of 5 marines can easily take down a hive...still leaves 2 plus comm to be off doing other things on a 16 player server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If youre down to one RT you cant attack as Marine, Aliens will kill you as soon as you leave your base or just attack the base everytime you go out with 4 Hives they can afford a basetrade i guess. Also there will be lots of funny Fades who are diving into your base and kill all of your mates aswell as gasing lerks. You wont be able to kill them because you lack important upgrades (unless theyre braindead). You cant push back aliens with 90% res, simply because they will have higher lifeforms instantly and obliderating your W1 marines with stuff like 3 Fades and Lerks while others will safe for Onos and end the game. So you basically camp in your base try not lose your IPS while Fades farm you right after you spawn, awesome, thats so much better then beeing Egg locked.
<!--quoteo(post=2053280:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Compare the playing experience, remember you need 8+ people wanting to play the other side to get your game happening, if they are not having fun then they wont hang around. Alien game play is very frustrating, marines have multiple instagib devices for your base lifeform and the one 99% of the world will spend the majority of their time as. Marines even when your losing you feel like your winning, heck if your over being beaten people recycle or f4...aliens cant do this and have to stick out being spawn camped and egg locked. Aliens spend far more game time waiting to spawn that marines....I dont think sitting in a spawn queue is exactly fun do you? Having endured all that if an alien has saved up 75 res he should have a decent bloody lifeform that is pretty damn devastating, assuming 2+ hives, and half decent otherwise. This is pretty much what we have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing experience is the same. Losing sucks, end of story. You can do funny crap with losing marines aswell as with losing Aliens. With marines you can try to turle and get some more kills. With Aliens you can try to sneak around and kill some more marines or RTs. However both sides are extremely antifun if the enemy team is abusing its advantage. It doesnt really matter if youre egglocked or butchered by immortal Fades and Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2053273:date=Dec 30 2012, 04:27 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 30 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rofl dude, you like VittuLima should go play some competitive matches pls and stop joining 12v12 servers. Then please come back and tell me how easy marines and how hard aliens are. Marines are over all harder in every aspect thats exactly why theyre losing more. Alien gameplay is to easy and to forgiving, you dont have to do half as much teamplay as marines have too to be successfull. Also Aliens basically just need to wait until they have got enough res for Onos and harras Marines, while Marines need to heavy damage Alien economy to even stand a chance not to get rolled by a bunch of oni. So you have 1 Side who needs to group 24/7, build and defend Structures and being the agressor at the same time. While aliens just need to keep Marines busy while Kham builds everything himself.
Also your "fun" aspect is a subjective point of view. Losing is frustraiting for both sides, ever played marine when your team cant hold a single extractor? Is this more fun to you? Aliens are actually way more fun to play, you dont feel pressure if you play them. While as a Marine you have to be carefull entire game and completely outplay enemy team to win. As you see "fun" is a subjective point of view and balance is objective. Thats why i go with balance, players will decide themself what is fun for them.
Turtles only happen with awfull players. No, noone will play a game where he know he will lose. Its BORING. Its exactly like watching a film where you know the end over and over again. You will lose any joy about your victories, that if completely antifun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have interest now writing a story so i just say it shortly. I disagree with everything u said, and they are the exact opposite, every single sentence. Some of what u said is true if u replace the marine word with "alien" and replace the alien word with "marine".
<!--quoteo(post=2053307:date=Dec 30 2012, 05:50 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 30 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playing experience is the same. Losing sucks, end of story. You can do funny crap with losing marines aswell as with losing Aliens. With marines you can try to turle and get some more kills. With Aliens you can try to sneak around and kill some more marines or RTs. However both sides are extremely antifun if the enemy team is abusing its advantage. It doesnt really matter if youre egglocked or butchered by immortal Fades and Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is 100% not true. When u lose as marines gameplay stays fun unlike with aliens and that is a god damn fact. With marines u have the "fun last stand" and with aliens u are just watching urself get killed in egg or raped after that from range. i've known so much NS players during my time with NS1 and NS2 they all agree.
<!--quoteo(post=2053310:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:53 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 30 2012, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have interest now writing a story so i just say it shortly. I disagree with everything u said, and they are the exact opposite, every single sentence. Some of what u said is true if u replace the marine word with "alien" and replace the alien word with "marine".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont have an Interest to discuss balance issues with a guy who only plays 12v12 either (no offense). There are several threads that explain why 12v12 is an inferiour experience in every way and why 12v12 favors marine teams hard. However i could not care less about 12v12. So unless you start suddenly playing the game like its supposed to or i become a 12v12 player there isnt any point to argue any longer.
<!--quoteo(post=2053318:date=Dec 30 2012, 08:01 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 30 2012, 08:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is 100% not true. When u lose as marines gameplay stays fun unlike with aliens and that is a god damn fact. With marines u have the "fun last stand" and with aliens u are just watching urself get killed in egg or raped after that from range. i've known so much NS players during my time with NS1 and NS2 they all agree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last man stand works only against bad unorganized alien teams. Half decent alien teams will abuse their advantage and make the game a living hell for you. But atleast you can sell IPs and end this misery.
<!--quoteo(post=2053321:date=Dec 30 2012, 06:05 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 30 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last man stand works only against bad unorganized alien teams. Half decent alien teams will abuse their advantage and make the game a living hell for you. But atleast you can sell IPs and end this misery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if it's "hell" it's not actually hell, u are enjoying it because u can still get dmg done and maybe a skulk kill, it will still stay fun in every scenario, 1v1 5v5 7v7 20v20 with bad alien team, with good alien team. this thing doesn't change.
Edit: ok maybe not 1v1 if fade or onos is camping ur ip ^^
<!--quoteo(post=2053307:date=Dec 31 2012, 02:50 AM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 31 2012, 02:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dont watch them, get a group and play some serious matches yourself. Then you will notice how broken Aliens in organized playing are. Marines look way easier than they are if you watch players with aimbot like skills playing them.
If youre down to one RT you cant attack as Marine, Aliens will kill you as soon as you leave your base or just attack the base everytime you go out with 4 Hives they can afford a basetrade i guess. Also there will be lots of funny Fades who are diving into your base and kill all of your mates aswell as gasing lerks. You wont be able to kill them because you lack important upgrades (unless theyre braindead). You cant push back aliens with 90% res, simply because they will have higher lifeforms instantly and obliderating your W1 marines with stuff like 3 Fades and Lerks while others will safe for Onos and end the game. So you basically camp in your base try not lose your IPS while Fades farm you right after you spawn, awesome, thats so much better then beeing Egg locked.
Playing experience is the same. Losing sucks, end of story. You can do funny crap with losing marines aswell as with losing Aliens. With marines you can try to turle and get some more kills. With Aliens you can try to sneak around and kill some more marines or RTs. However both sides are extremely antifun if the enemy team is abusing its advantage. It doesnt really matter if youre egglocked or butchered by immortal Fades and Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh sorry do I not play enough competitive games? Guess I am just a crap player who has no idea about the game. Sorry but as the game has only just gone retail there is no real competition here in australia....also my clans not overly active, after ~16 years we have given up and simply play for social fun. So i just play in pubs...big whoopie.
The fact that the servers I play on dont lose to camo 1st shows the level of play on the servers. Your belief that competitive players are better or somehow offers a greater insight is laughable. 12,14,16, 18,20,22,24 player servers...it makes no difference, marine gameplay is more FUN.
To say playing experience is the for both sides on 1 RT is the same shows very little experience in game play. Alien game play when on 1 res node is 200 times more boring than marine game play in same situation. Your arrogance about the fact someone prefers a specific server size again highlights your own lack of understanding of the challenges UWE are trying to overcome. They are not balancing this game for competitive play, there are trying to balance the game for everyone. They admit that they have stuck to lower server sizes this far. But considering it was only since about july/august servers where able to go 24 and have a 30 tick they had no servers with which to gauge. The fact that 24 play.er servers are mostly full shows that the playing public wants to use these higher population count servers even if you dont. I rarely see 12 player servers or even 14 players, seeing as comp is 6v6 if it was so popular there would be plenty. Instead I see 16 player and up being the preferred servers, not only to host but also to play on.
Comp play has very little to do with fun and all about balance (but as game is asymmetrical I dont see how this is realistic goal). UWE want a fun game not just a balanced game, so you might as well accept that they will leave things unbalanced if it allows for both sides to have fun playing. Marines currently can turtle and draw out a game because its fun to sit back and shoot aliens running through the door, attackers are easy to engage at your advantage. Aliens cant do this as their attackers stay at range and are unable to easily be enganged.
Fun over balance, fun over asymmetry, fun to play is one of the key focuses for the dev team, fun does not mean winning. Some of the best games I have played we actually lost, sorry but if you only have fun if you win your a very sad person (seriously its unhealthy to be like that, enjoy the competitiion for the sake of it, not solely because your winning).
<!--quoteo(post=2053510:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh sorry do I not play enough competitive games? Guess I am just a crap player who has no idea about the game. Sorry but as the game has only just gone retail there is no real competition here in australia....also my clans not overly active, after ~16 years we have given up and simply play for social fun. So i just play in pubs...big whoopie.
The fact that the servers I play on dont lose to camo 1st shows the level of play on the servers. Your belief that competitive players are better or somehow offers a greater insight is laughable. 12,14,16, 18,20,22,24 player servers...it makes no difference, marine gameplay is more FUN.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive games are more organized, thats why it indeed offers greater insight then 99% of pub games. Atleast for the strengths and weaknesses of each side if played in the most possible effective way in the current matchup. Atleast it did for me, thats why I told you to try it out. But you seem rather be busy to get butthurt.
I still disagree about the fun part, I have not less fun playing alien. If you have try to play with lower numbers of players. Aliens get stronger with lower numbers. I have rather more fun playing aliens, you have more independance. As marine I always have to stick with my team and feel pressure that I have to achieve something or Oni will come to ###### me up.
<!--quoteo(post=2053510:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To say playing experience is the for both sides on 1 RT is the same shows very little experience in game play. Alien game play when on 1 res node is 200 times more boring than marine game play in same situation. Your arrogance about the fact someone prefers a specific server size again highlights your own lack of understanding of the challenges UWE are trying to overcome. They are not balancing this game for competitive play, there are trying to balance the game for everyone. They admit that they have stuck to lower server sizes this far. But considering it was only since about july/august servers where able to go 24 and have a 30 tick they had no servers with which to gauge. The fact that 24 play.er servers are mostly full shows that the playing public wants to use these higher population count servers even if you dont. I rarely see 12 player servers or even 14 players, seeing as comp is 6v6 if it was so popular there would be plenty. Instead I see 16 player and up being the preferred servers, not only to host but also to play on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its the opposide. I might have had to much experience in this game. Sitting in my base getting farmed by Fades and Oni while waiting to lose is not fun for me. It was when I was a rookie, but not anymore. The game is over, end of story. I want it to end to start a new one that is more interresting
It has nothing to do with arrogance. 12v12 is a pure funmode. UWE is balancing the game for everyone? Thats impossible. Alien strength decrease with numbers, marine strength increase in numbers. Theyre rather trying to make it enjoyable for everyone. You would have to change the numbers of Marine and Alien stats for every serversize to achieve this. I dont think UWE will ever do that. Game is made for 6v6, thats how it will be balanced, 12v12 will stay a funmode as long this is true (unless UWE balance after it) which flaws wont ever be fixed.
Competitive modes are never popular anywhere, they take time and effort. Thats why the majority wont ever play it because its far easier to hide behind numbers. Thats ok, but its not worth to balance for a mass who dont even wants to play this game properly and rather runs to the easiest possible mode they can get. Not that they would actually need balance, you can see that im right if you look how many people are playing 12v12 that lacks any balance. If 12v12 becomes the new competitive mode, majority will just run away to easier gamemodes again.
I agree to some extent that winquotes are not everything. For fungaming it might not even matter as long it doesnt hit something like 80:20. But 60:40% winrate for Competitive is very very bad and should be fixed. The best way has been always "fun" mechanics for the casuals as you say and balance for the hardcore gamers. Then everyone is happy.
<!--quoteo(post=2053510:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->game, so you might as well accept that they will leave things unbalanced if it allows for both sides to have fun playing. Marines currently can turtle and draw out a game because its fun to sit back and shoot aliens running through the door, attackers are easy to engage at your advantage. Aliens cant do this as their attackers stay at range and are unable to easily be enganged.
Fun over balance, fun over asymmetry, fun to play is one of the key focuses for the dev team, fun does not mean winning. Some of the best games I have played we actually lost, sorry but if you only have fun if you win your a very sad person (seriously its unhealthy to be like that, enjoy the competitiion for the sake of it, not solely because your winning).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should someone who has more fun when he has outplayed his enemy being a terrible person? Because you dont agree with him? The sense of every game is to win, I have fun while I am trying to win, use new strategies, counter enemy strategies. And even if you lose a game after struggeling and it was close it becomes awesome. However if you cant win and just wait in your base to die the game becomes boring. I could actually turn it back to you and say everyone who is only having fun if he can shoot something must be a poor person because he dont understand the deeper aspects of strategy and joy of outplayng your enemy. Well I wont, because fun is very subjective.
Edit: Dont get why this thread drifted to a balance discussion.
<!--quoteo(post=2052796:date=Dec 29 2012, 08:24 AM:name=Skacky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skacky @ Dec 29 2012, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty much in agreement with the fact that the Onos is a bit broken at the moment, though the most irritating thing with it is the really annoying Stomp. I mean you can knock out no less than four marines if they flock in front of you when you rush them, and then you just have to kill and repeat, etc. They have no means of recovering. I'd suggest returning to something similar to the NS1 stomp; a straight, narrow-ish line in front of the Onos, rather than the AOE thing we currently have in NS2. I think the Onos is a tad too fast too, but that may be just me. As for the exos, I think they are fine as they are, though I never take the regular one.
Also, ns2stats is a really cool website and clearly shows something's off, and no, these servers are clearly not dead since I recently played on one of them that was full the entire time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The solution to that is to hit the onos from far away. Every time I've come into close range of an onos, regardless of whether they use stomp, I am always dead unless I'm in an exo. There's no reason anywhere ever to group up around an onos as marines. You have ranged weapons, use them.
<!--quoteo(post=2051254:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:48 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 26 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the onos, it's not as if the issue is that is has too much hitpoints or something like that specifically. However, marines need some more options in order to address the arrival of the onos. Right now it basically counters everything marines have, and marines have no counter to onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the real problem with this game. The marines don't really get very good tools, especially where the onos is concerned.
<!--quoteo(post=2054962:date=Jan 2 2013, 02:56 PM:name=Bender the Offender)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bender the Offender @ Jan 2 2013, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the real problem with this game. The marines don't really get very good tools, especially where the onos is concerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah. The Marine's response to basically any attack is 'Use Shotgun on it. If that doesn't work, add more Shotgun'. They get their most powerful weapon for direct combat within the first few minutes of the game, but even that isn't particularly effective against an Onos.
The AlgerianJoin Date: 2012-12-22Member: 175962Members
<!--quoteo(post=2052796:date=Dec 29 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Skacky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skacky @ Dec 29 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty much in agreement with the fact that the Onos is a bit broken at the moment, though the most irritating thing with it is the really annoying Stomp. I mean you can knock out no less than four marines if they flock in front of you when you rush them, and then you just have to kill and repeat, etc. They have no means of recovering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they "flock in front of you", they're just dumb, and they should die. The viable tactic as a group against an Onos is spreading out, forcing him to give his back to the others when he attacks one of you.
<!--quoteo(post=2055846:date=Jan 4 2013, 02:02 AM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Jan 4 2013, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can kill an Onos alone with a simple Jetpack+Flame combo. Once I even killed two without the jetpack, while I was the last man standing on my team.
The problem is not the Onos being OP, it's not. The problem is sissies too scared of it to chase it when it's running out of health, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? We must play on different servers (or I'm just don't notice the other players actions). When I play, the problem is normally the other aliens. It's the skulks or lerks or ESPECIALLY the Fades that kill me as I try to not draw aggro from the Onos and wait for it to turn tail. However, assuming it's just my base, 2-3 marines and me vs an Onos you'll usually see me screaming and firing at it Han Solo style (even running past Hydras/whips/clogs/other aliens) to kill it.
The AlgerianJoin Date: 2012-12-22Member: 175962Members
<!--quoteo(post=2055853:date=Jan 4 2013, 11:13 AM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 4 2013, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? We must play on different servers (or I'm just don't notice the other players actions). When I play, the problem is normally the other aliens. It's the skulks or lerks or ESPECIALLY the Fades that kill me as I try to not draw aggro from the Onos and wait for it to turn tail. However, assuming it's just my base, 2-3 marines and me vs an Onos you'll usually see me screaming and firing at it Han Solo style (even running past Hydras/whips/clogs/other aliens) to kill it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you didn't, you need to spread out when attacking an Onos as a group, as its back is more vulnerable to damage. You have to force it to give it's back to your teamates bullets, then chase him as it runs away. Baiting it is the key.
Of course, if said Onos is smart, he'll storm out before his health his too low to survive a chase.
I think Onos should have a significant knockback effect added to it's primary attack. This knockback should only apply to regular marines and jetpack marines though, not to Exos or buldings. And it sort of makes sense anyway, if you get hit with a 2 ton truck you <i>should</i> go flying.
This would slow down the onos damage to foot marines significantly since any time he attacks a marine, the marine will fly back and the onos will now have to re-close the distance to hit the marine again. This would give the marines a few valuable seconds to continue unloading into the onos, resluting in his death if he overextends.
It would turn the Onos more into an Exo/ building killing machine, and the Fade into the marine assassin (maybe the fade could do with a damage buff?). What about stomp? Well possibly have it also apply a root so that a marine won't fly when struck. idk if that's needed though. Possibly a root could be a secondary upgrade for the onos. Orrr!! change the Fade's Vortex into an AoE root so you want to team up the 2 lifeforms. Or bring back devour ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2055856:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:24 AM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Jan 4 2013, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you didn't, you need to spread out when attacking an Onos as a group, as its back is more vulnerable to damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is this I don't even....
I agree highly. On top of that, a single Exo SHOULD be able to take out an Onos in some way at least. But he literally can not considering the gun overheats before doing as much damage to the Onos, and considering the damage of the Onos, Exo has no chance even if the Exo has welders. The Onos most certainly needs some sort of dis advantage. Or anything at this point. A group of Aliens will take out a Exo just like that, but a group of Marines still won't have much a chance against a single Onos.
Along with that, if by some miracle the Marines do good damage, the Onos is quite fast, he will run away quickly, go camo, and heal quickly. While the Exo being so slow, won't even be able to run away, nor cloak, nor even regen his health.
In most my experience as Marine, if the Aliens had at least two Onos' they generally won the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2055846:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:02 AM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Jan 4 2013, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can kill an Onos alone with a simple Jetpack+Flame combo. Once I even killed two without the jetpack, while I was the last man standing on my team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2056223:date=Jan 4 2013, 06:52 PM:name=TehSlenderMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TehSlenderMan @ Jan 4 2013, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree highly. On top of that, a single Exo SHOULD be able to take out an Onos in some way at least. But he literally can not considering the gun overheats before doing as much damage to the Onos, and considering the damage of the Onos, Exo has no chance even if the Exo has welders. The Onos most certainly needs some sort of dis advantage. Or anything at this point. A group of Aliens will take out a Exo just like that, but a group of Marines still won't have much a chance against a single Onos.
Along with that, if by some miracle the Marines do good damage, the Onos is quite fast, he will run away quickly, go camo, and heal quickly. While the Exo being so slow, won't even be able to run away, nor cloak, nor even regen his health.
In most my experience as Marine, if the Aliens had at least two Onos' they generally won the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about? A lone dual exo/onos encounter actulaly almsot always ends in exo's favor unless the onos is literally right on top of the exos. I think onos is a tad too fast, but exo always had the raw dps and range advantage over onos
<!--quoteo(post=2056231:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:05 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 4 2013, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are you talking about? A lone dual exo/onos encounter actulaly almsot always ends in exo's favor unless the onos is literally right on top of the exos. I think onos is a tad too fast, but exo always had the raw dps and range advantage over onos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know dude, but I multiple times, had an edge against the Onos with a dual Exo, but my guns decided to overheat before I could kill him, so he got me instead while I got to sit there slowly backing up waiting for my guns to be available again.
<!--quoteo(post=2056235:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:09 PM:name=TehSlenderMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TehSlenderMan @ Jan 4 2013, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know dude, but I multiple times, had an edge against the Onos with a dual Exo, but my guns decided to overheat before I could kill him, so he got me instead while I got to sit there slowly backing up waiting for my guns to be available again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... Don't overheat it? If you let go of your mouse right before it overheats, the spinup is much shorter than waiting for the cooldown
<!--quoteo(post=2056240:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:15 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 4 2013, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Don't overheat it? If you let go of your mouse right before it overheats, the spinup is much shorter than waiting for the cooldown<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've attempted that, still died waiting on it to cool off a little.
<!--quoteo(post=2056247:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:30 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 4 2013, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, just some guy who likes to join rookie servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL, Oh God, that is by far the best thing i've read all day. I'd rep you if this forum had such a feature.
<!--quoteo(post=2056263:date=Jan 5 2013, 03:04 AM:name=TehSlenderMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TehSlenderMan @ Jan 5 2013, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've attempted that, still died waiting on it to cool off a little.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't wait, you just unspin them. The spin up time alone will allow them to cool down to about half way.
Comments
UWE, rightly so, have chosen to also consider the "fun to play" element.
I, like VittuLima, find marines much easier to play and a much higher level of enjoyment with much less effort.
This is confirmed by the myriad of posts in the lead up to going "retail" from people asking/begging veteran players to go alien so as to avoid a total alien noob stomping.
Why? Because marines are easier to play, quicker to pick up and all round more fun to play.
This led to the swing in stats with almost 0 balance changes as experienced aliens where taking on not only noob marines but noob marine comms.
This is why UWE has persisted with little buffs to marines as they know that the fun factor in aliens is missing.
Aliens are less fun to play, sure its fun to pub stomp noob marines but play against an equally skilled marine team and playing aliens becomes terribly frustrating as you constantly die whilst perceptually barely inflicting much damage.
This continues right up to the point you lose or that marines start recycling as you have somehow won (depriving you of any real amount of time feeling like your winning).
Win Loss ratios can be tainted by all sorts of things and as such aiming for fun to play is much more important.
I will continue to play a game on a side which loses if I have fun whilst playing....shooting skulks, gorges, lerks fades and even onos is fun.
Why do we see marines turtle late game? Because even though you have lost its still fun and you will get a few more kills (the reason we play a FPS is to get frags).
So that means that your belief that people wont play when they lose 90% is wrong, a lot of people will play when they know they are 100% certain to lose. This is why late game turtles are such a problem for aliens to deal with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rofl dude, you like VittuLima should go play some competitive matches pls and stop joining 12v12 servers. Then please come back and tell me how easy marines and how hard aliens are. Marines are over all harder in every aspect thats exactly why theyre losing more. Alien gameplay is to easy and to forgiving, you dont have to do half as much teamplay as marines have too to be successfull. Also Aliens basically just need to wait until they have got enough res for Onos and harras Marines, while Marines need to heavy damage Alien economy to even stand a chance not to get rolled by a bunch of oni. So you have 1 Side who needs to group 24/7, build and defend Structures and being the agressor at the same time. While aliens just need to keep Marines busy while Kham builds everything himself.
Also your "fun" aspect is a subjective point of view. Losing is frustraiting for both sides, ever played marine when your team cant hold a single extractor? Is this more fun to you? Aliens are actually way more fun to play, you dont feel pressure if you play them. While as a Marine you have to be carefull entire game and completely outplay enemy team to win. As you see "fun" is a subjective point of view and balance is objective. Thats why i go with balance, players will decide themself what is fun for them.
Turtles only happen with awfull players. No, noone will play a game where he know he will lose. Its BORING. Its exactly like watching a film where you know the end over and over again. You will lose any joy about your victories, that if completely antifun.
A lot of players don't understand that NS is not chess, each team play with different pieces at differrent costs and on a different subjective map.
<!--quoteo(post=2051425:date=Dec 26 2012, 01:26 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 26 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But why not, both cost 75 res. If EXOs are weaker then Onos why not make them cost 65 instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking down onos or exo cost would shorten time for the other side to get ready for middle game.
Yet, a single gun EXO is still formidable whith proper support and is only 50 res.
Also your "fun" aspect is a subjective point of view. Losing is frustraiting for both sides, ever played marine when your team cant hold a single extractor? Is this more fun to you? Aliens are actually way more fun to play, you dont feel pressure if you play them. While as a Marine you have to be carefull entire game and completely outplay enemy team to win. As you see "fun" is a subjective point of view and balance is objective. Thats why i go with balance, players will decide themself what is fun for them.
Turtles only happen with awfull players. No, noone will play a game where he know he will lose. Its BORING. Its exactly like watching a film where you know the end over and over again. You will lose any joy about your victories, that if completely antifun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seen plenty of competetive and high player skilled games.
Simply look at the W:L ratios just before things went retail, was close to 50-50 (49-51 marines way) and the player base was much more leveled on skill.
Lets take your point about the experience when your team only has 1 extractor.
Lets remember one of the goals of the team was to make things "fun to play" not simply achieve a win loss ratio.
Please tell me which side is more fun to play when you have only 1 extractor.
For aliens means no leap, bile etc, the longer you hold out the lesser your chances, if you went crag first you can get a small buff, though you do have to re-evolve after spawning. When you only have 1 RT then you are liekly having the other team pushing in and shooting eggs.
This now makes that crag hive a hindrance due to lack of ability to buy egg or spawn point around a corner.
Basically for aliens its simply spawn run die..wait 16 seconds.....spawn run die....wait 16 seconds.....spawn die....wait 16 seconds.....spawn die...wait 16 seconds.
If you are lucky you may get a 1 kill.
You will have totally gimped fades and lerks, no spores or blink etc basically your just spawn and die.
For marines 1 res node mean no exo's or jp's, however you can still tech up with weapons and armour. The longer you hold out the better the chance you have, you can slowly tech up over 2-3 tech points (just look at the counter shade first strategy or playing for tech points not res nodes (which are sooo ns1 ;))). Sure 1 res node is going to be slow but atleast your comm has upgrades for your attack and defence (look at the drawbacks aliens have in their choices - (choose either celerity& adrenaline or carapace & regen or silence & camo), basically they can get a mild armour boost).
Further to this you can sit back and simply shoot at aliens as they come through the door, maintaining maximum advantage of ranged attack.
Almost every hive can facilitate a drawn out turtle from marines, these can be successful counter attacks...if an alien side is poorly co-ordinated against an organised marine team then its simply a case of tech then push as a group group fire of 5 marines can easily take down a hive...still leaves 2 plus comm to be off doing other things on a 16 player server.
Compare the playing experience, remember you need 8+ people wanting to play the other side to get your game happening, if they are not having fun then they wont hang around.
Alien game play is very frustrating, marines have multiple instagib devices for your base lifeform and the one 99% of the world will spend the majority of their time as.
Marines even when your losing you feel like your winning, heck if your over being beaten people recycle or f4...aliens cant do this and have to stick out being spawn camped and egg locked.
Aliens spend far more game time waiting to spawn that marines....I dont think sitting in a spawn queue is exactly fun do you?
Having endured all that if an alien has saved up 75 res he should have a decent bloody lifeform that is pretty damn devastating, assuming 2+ hives, and half decent otherwise. This is pretty much what we have.
Simply look at the W:L ratios just before things went retail, was close to 50-50 (49-51 marines way) and the player base was much more leveled on skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont watch them, get a group and play some serious matches yourself. Then you will notice how broken Aliens in organized playing are. Marines look way easier than they are if you watch players with aimbot like skills playing them.
<!--quoteo(post=2053280:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For marines 1 res node mean no exo's or jp's, however you can still tech up with weapons and armour. The longer you hold out the better the chance you have, you can slowly tech up over 2-3 tech points (just look at the counter shade first strategy or playing for tech points not res nodes (which are sooo ns1 ;))). Sure 1 res node is going to be slow but atleast your comm has upgrades for your attack and defence (look at the drawbacks aliens have in their choices - (choose either celerity& adrenaline or carapace & regen or silence & camo), basically they can get a mild armour boost).
Further to this you can sit back and simply shoot at aliens as they come through the door, maintaining maximum advantage of ranged attack.
Almost every hive can facilitate a drawn out turtle from marines, these can be successful counter attacks...if an alien side is poorly co-ordinated against an organised marine team then its simply a case of tech then push as a group group fire of 5 marines can easily take down a hive...still leaves 2 plus comm to be off doing other things on a 16 player server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If youre down to one RT you cant attack as Marine, Aliens will kill you as soon as you leave your base or just attack the base everytime you go out with 4 Hives they can afford a basetrade i guess. Also there will be lots of funny Fades who are diving into your base and kill all of your mates aswell as gasing lerks. You wont be able to kill them because you lack important upgrades (unless theyre braindead). You cant push back aliens with 90% res, simply because they will have higher lifeforms instantly and obliderating your W1 marines with stuff like 3 Fades and Lerks while others will safe for Onos and end the game. So you basically camp in your base try not lose your IPS while Fades farm you right after you spawn, awesome, thats so much better then beeing Egg locked.
<!--quoteo(post=2053280:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Compare the playing experience, remember you need 8+ people wanting to play the other side to get your game happening, if they are not having fun then they wont hang around.
Alien game play is very frustrating, marines have multiple instagib devices for your base lifeform and the one 99% of the world will spend the majority of their time as.
Marines even when your losing you feel like your winning, heck if your over being beaten people recycle or f4...aliens cant do this and have to stick out being spawn camped and egg locked.
Aliens spend far more game time waiting to spawn that marines....I dont think sitting in a spawn queue is exactly fun do you?
Having endured all that if an alien has saved up 75 res he should have a decent bloody lifeform that is pretty damn devastating, assuming 2+ hives, and half decent otherwise. This is pretty much what we have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing experience is the same. Losing sucks, end of story. You can do funny crap with losing marines aswell as with losing Aliens. With marines you can try to turle and get some more kills. With Aliens you can try to sneak around and kill some more marines or RTs. However both sides are extremely antifun if the enemy team is abusing its advantage. It doesnt really matter if youre egglocked or butchered by immortal Fades and Onos.
Also your "fun" aspect is a subjective point of view. Losing is frustraiting for both sides, ever played marine when your team cant hold a single extractor? Is this more fun to you? Aliens are actually way more fun to play, you dont feel pressure if you play them. While as a Marine you have to be carefull entire game and completely outplay enemy team to win. As you see "fun" is a subjective point of view and balance is objective. Thats why i go with balance, players will decide themself what is fun for them.
Turtles only happen with awfull players. No, noone will play a game where he know he will lose. Its BORING. Its exactly like watching a film where you know the end over and over again. You will lose any joy about your victories, that if completely antifun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have interest now writing a story so i just say it shortly. I disagree with everything u said, and they are the exact opposite, every single sentence. Some of what u said is true if u replace the marine word with "alien" and replace the alien word with "marine".
This is 100% not true. When u lose as marines gameplay stays fun unlike with aliens and that is a god damn fact. With marines u have the "fun last stand" and with aliens u are just watching urself get killed in egg or raped after that from range. i've known so much NS players during my time with NS1 and NS2 they all agree.
I dont have an Interest to discuss balance issues with a guy who only plays 12v12 either (no offense). There are several threads that explain why 12v12 is an inferiour experience in every way and why 12v12 favors marine teams hard. However i could not care less about 12v12. So unless you start suddenly playing the game like its supposed to or i become a 12v12 player there isnt any point to argue any longer.
Last man stand works only against bad unorganized alien teams. Half decent alien teams will abuse their advantage and make the game a living hell for you. But atleast you can sell IPs and end this misery.
Even if it's "hell" it's not actually hell, u are enjoying it because u can still get dmg done and maybe a skulk kill, it will still stay fun in every scenario, 1v1 5v5 7v7 20v20 with bad alien team, with good alien team. this thing doesn't change.
Edit: ok maybe not 1v1 if fade or onos is camping ur ip ^^
If youre down to one RT you cant attack as Marine, Aliens will kill you as soon as you leave your base or just attack the base everytime you go out with 4 Hives they can afford a basetrade i guess. Also there will be lots of funny Fades who are diving into your base and kill all of your mates aswell as gasing lerks. You wont be able to kill them because you lack important upgrades (unless theyre braindead). You cant push back aliens with 90% res, simply because they will have higher lifeforms instantly and obliderating your W1 marines with stuff like 3 Fades and Lerks while others will safe for Onos and end the game. So you basically camp in your base try not lose your IPS while Fades farm you right after you spawn, awesome, thats so much better then beeing Egg locked.
Playing experience is the same. Losing sucks, end of story. You can do funny crap with losing marines aswell as with losing Aliens. With marines you can try to turle and get some more kills. With Aliens you can try to sneak around and kill some more marines or RTs. However both sides are extremely antifun if the enemy team is abusing its advantage. It doesnt really matter if youre egglocked or butchered by immortal Fades and Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh sorry do I not play enough competitive games?
Guess I am just a crap player who has no idea about the game.
Sorry but as the game has only just gone retail there is no real competition here in australia....also my clans not overly active, after ~16 years we have given up and simply play for social fun. So i just play in pubs...big whoopie.
The fact that the servers I play on dont lose to camo 1st shows the level of play on the servers.
Your belief that competitive players are better or somehow offers a greater insight is laughable.
12,14,16, 18,20,22,24 player servers...it makes no difference, marine gameplay is more FUN.
To say playing experience is the for both sides on 1 RT is the same shows very little experience in game play.
Alien game play when on 1 res node is 200 times more boring than marine game play in same situation.
Your arrogance about the fact someone prefers a specific server size again highlights your own lack of understanding of the challenges UWE are trying to overcome.
They are not balancing this game for competitive play, there are trying to balance the game for everyone. They admit that they have stuck to lower server sizes this far.
But considering it was only since about july/august servers where able to go 24 and have a 30 tick they had no servers with which to gauge.
The fact that 24 play.er servers are mostly full shows that the playing public wants to use these higher population count servers even if you dont.
I rarely see 12 player servers or even 14 players, seeing as comp is 6v6 if it was so popular there would be plenty.
Instead I see 16 player and up being the preferred servers, not only to host but also to play on.
Comp play has very little to do with fun and all about balance (but as game is asymmetrical I dont see how this is realistic goal).
UWE want a fun game not just a balanced game, so you might as well accept that they will leave things unbalanced if it allows for both sides to have fun playing.
Marines currently can turtle and draw out a game because its fun to sit back and shoot aliens running through the door, attackers are easy to engage at your advantage.
Aliens cant do this as their attackers stay at range and are unable to easily be enganged.
Fun over balance, fun over asymmetry, fun to play is one of the key focuses for the dev team, fun does not mean winning.
Some of the best games I have played we actually lost, sorry but if you only have fun if you win your a very sad person (seriously its unhealthy to be like that, enjoy the competitiion for the sake of it, not solely because your winning).
Guess I am just a crap player who has no idea about the game.
Sorry but as the game has only just gone retail there is no real competition here in australia....also my clans not overly active, after ~16 years we have given up and simply play for social fun. So i just play in pubs...big whoopie.
The fact that the servers I play on dont lose to camo 1st shows the level of play on the servers.
Your belief that competitive players are better or somehow offers a greater insight is laughable.
12,14,16, 18,20,22,24 player servers...it makes no difference, marine gameplay is more FUN.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive games are more organized, thats why it indeed offers greater insight then 99% of pub games. Atleast for the strengths and weaknesses of each side if played in the most possible effective way in the current matchup. Atleast it did for me, thats why I told you to try it out. But you seem rather be busy to get butthurt.
I still disagree about the fun part, I have not less fun playing alien. If you have try to play with lower numbers of players. Aliens get stronger with lower numbers. I have rather more fun playing aliens, you have more independance. As marine I always have to stick with my team and feel pressure that I have to achieve something or Oni will come to ###### me up.
<!--quoteo(post=2053510:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To say playing experience is the for both sides on 1 RT is the same shows very little experience in game play.
Alien game play when on 1 res node is 200 times more boring than marine game play in same situation.
Your arrogance about the fact someone prefers a specific server size again highlights your own lack of understanding of the challenges UWE are trying to overcome.
They are not balancing this game for competitive play, there are trying to balance the game for everyone. They admit that they have stuck to lower server sizes this far.
But considering it was only since about july/august servers where able to go 24 and have a 30 tick they had no servers with which to gauge.
The fact that 24 play.er servers are mostly full shows that the playing public wants to use these higher population count servers even if you dont.
I rarely see 12 player servers or even 14 players, seeing as comp is 6v6 if it was so popular there would be plenty.
Instead I see 16 player and up being the preferred servers, not only to host but also to play on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its the opposide. I might have had to much experience in this game. Sitting in my base getting farmed by Fades and Oni while waiting to lose is not fun for me. It was when I was a rookie, but not anymore. The game is over, end of story. I want it to end to start a new one that is more interresting
It has nothing to do with arrogance. 12v12 is a pure funmode. UWE is balancing the game for everyone? Thats impossible. Alien strength decrease with numbers, marine strength increase in numbers. Theyre rather trying to make it enjoyable for everyone. You would have to change the numbers of Marine and Alien stats for every serversize to achieve this. I dont think UWE will ever do that. Game is made for 6v6, thats how it will be balanced, 12v12 will stay a funmode as long this is true (unless UWE balance after it) which flaws wont ever be fixed.
Competitive modes are never popular anywhere, they take time and effort. Thats why the majority wont ever play it because its far easier to hide behind numbers. Thats ok, but its not worth to balance for a mass who dont even wants to play this game properly and rather runs to the easiest possible mode they can get. Not that they would actually need balance, you can see that im right if you look how many people are playing 12v12 that lacks any balance. If 12v12 becomes the new competitive mode, majority will just run away to easier gamemodes again.
I agree to some extent that winquotes are not everything. For fungaming it might not even matter as long it doesnt hit something like 80:20. But 60:40% winrate for Competitive is very very bad and should be fixed. The best way has been always "fun" mechanics for the casuals as you say and balance for the hardcore gamers. Then everyone is happy.
<!--quoteo(post=2053510:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 30 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->game, so you might as well accept that they will leave things unbalanced if it allows for both sides to have fun playing.
Marines currently can turtle and draw out a game because its fun to sit back and shoot aliens running through the door, attackers are easy to engage at your advantage.
Aliens cant do this as their attackers stay at range and are unable to easily be enganged.
Fun over balance, fun over asymmetry, fun to play is one of the key focuses for the dev team, fun does not mean winning.
Some of the best games I have played we actually lost, sorry but if you only have fun if you win your a very sad person (seriously its unhealthy to be like that, enjoy the competitiion for the sake of it, not solely because your winning).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should someone who has more fun when he has outplayed his enemy being a terrible person? Because you dont agree with him? The sense of every game is to win, I have fun while I am trying to win, use new strategies, counter enemy strategies. And even if you lose a game after struggeling and it was close it becomes awesome. However if you cant win and just wait in your base to die the game becomes boring. I could actually turn it back to you and say everyone who is only having fun if he can shoot something must be a poor person because he dont understand the deeper aspects of strategy and joy of outplayng your enemy. Well I wont, because fun is very subjective.
Edit: Dont get why this thread drifted to a balance discussion.
Also, ns2stats is a really cool website and clearly shows something's off, and no, these servers are clearly not dead since I recently played on one of them that was full the entire time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The solution to that is to hit the onos from far away. Every time I've come into close range of an onos, regardless of whether they use stomp, I am always dead unless I'm in an exo. There's no reason anywhere ever to group up around an onos as marines. You have ranged weapons, use them.
That's the real problem with this game. The marines don't really get very good tools, especially where the onos is concerned.
Well, yeah. The Marine's response to basically any attack is 'Use Shotgun on it. If that doesn't work, add more Shotgun'. They get their most powerful weapon for direct combat within the first few minutes of the game, but even that isn't particularly effective against an Onos.
Once I even killed two without the jetpack, while I was the last man standing on my team.
The problem is not the Onos being OP, it's not.
The problem is sissies too scared of it to chase it when it's running out of health, period.
If they "flock in front of you", they're just dumb, and they should die.
The viable tactic as a group against an Onos is spreading out, forcing him to give his back to the others when he attacks one of you.
Once I even killed two without the jetpack, while I was the last man standing on my team.
The problem is not the Onos being OP, it's not.
The problem is sissies too scared of it to chase it when it's running out of health, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? We must play on different servers (or I'm just don't notice the other players actions). When I play, the problem is normally the other aliens. It's the skulks or lerks or ESPECIALLY the Fades that kill me as I try to not draw aggro from the Onos and wait for it to turn tail. However, assuming it's just my base, 2-3 marines and me vs an Onos you'll usually see me screaming and firing at it Han Solo style (even running past Hydras/whips/clogs/other aliens) to kill it.
If you didn't, you need to spread out when attacking an Onos as a group, as its back is more vulnerable to damage.
You have to force it to give it's back to your teamates bullets, then chase him as it runs away.
Baiting it is the key.
Of course, if said Onos is smart, he'll storm out before his health his too low to survive a chase.
This would slow down the onos damage to foot marines significantly since any time he attacks a marine, the marine will fly back and the onos will now have to re-close the distance to hit the marine again. This would give the marines a few valuable seconds to continue unloading into the onos, resluting in his death if he overextends.
It would turn the Onos more into an Exo/ building killing machine, and the Fade into the marine assassin (maybe the fade could do with a damage buff?).
What about stomp? Well possibly have it also apply a root so that a marine won't fly when struck. idk if that's needed though. Possibly a root could be a secondary upgrade for the onos. Orrr!! change the Fade's Vortex into an AoE root so you want to team up the 2 lifeforms.
Or bring back devour ;)
What is this I don't even....
Along with that, if by some miracle the Marines do good damage, the Onos is quite fast, he will run away quickly, go camo, and heal quickly. While the Exo being so slow, won't even be able to run away, nor cloak, nor even regen his health.
In most my experience as Marine, if the Aliens had at least two Onos' they generally won the game.
Once I even killed two without the jetpack, while I was the last man standing on my team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chuck Norris? Is that you?
Along with that, if by some miracle the Marines do good damage, the Onos is quite fast, he will run away quickly, go camo, and heal quickly. While the Exo being so slow, won't even be able to run away, nor cloak, nor even regen his health.
In most my experience as Marine, if the Aliens had at least two Onos' they generally won the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about? A lone dual exo/onos encounter actulaly almsot always ends in exo's favor unless the onos is literally right on top of the exos. I think onos is a tad too fast, but exo always had the raw dps and range advantage over onos
Don't know dude, but I multiple times, had an edge against the Onos with a dual Exo, but my guns decided to overheat before I could kill him, so he got me instead while I got to sit there slowly backing up waiting for my guns to be available again.
... Don't overheat it? If you let go of your mouse right before it overheats, the spinup is much shorter than waiting for the cooldown
No, just some guy who likes to join rookie servers.
I've attempted that, still died waiting on it to cool off a little.
LOL, Oh God, that is by far the best thing i've read all day. I'd rep you if this forum had such a feature.
You don't wait, you just unspin them. The spin up time alone will allow them to cool down to about half way.