rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2056280:date=Jan 4 2013, 08:27 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 4 2013, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last time I played there it was only 1 pres per kill and petit still pulled a 5-6min onos, with a couple others pulling onos ~2min later.
It might work *ok* at 6v6 but even at 1pres it still completely breaks pub play. Even with other changes to help balance it out it's still just not worth it imo since it's always going to be a case of making the strong stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2056169:date=Jan 4 2013, 04:56 PM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Jan 4 2013, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Even with Res for Kills down to something minuscule like .25 for a Marine/Skulk it wouldn't give better players that big of an advantage, but still create variety in the lifeform explosion and when weapons appear on the field. You'd have to kill a hefty 8 skulks for a 2 pres advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It used to be set at 1-3 pres per kill, are you sure it was lowered to a flat 1 per kill?
I think that if RFK is implemented then it needs a scale down in pres income as well. I'm not sure that happened. I also agree that it is a huge problem in large 20p or 24p servers because one or two good players will wrack up 10 or 15 kills in the first few minutes, potentially halving the time it takes to get their onos or fade.
It's also a problem given how powerful the onos is. If he wasn't so powerful with no upgrades/abilities, then a 5m onos would be weak (or at least fightable) like a 5m fade is now.
Cyst change sounds great, then I remembered how whips require rooting to do anything. Now it sounds terrible.
Also not sure why GL needed a range nerf. People are still going to shoot it at their friends feet, just now it will be less useful for clearing rooms of structures.
The size of the reward is irrelevant. If someone is in the lead, even at .1pres per kill, they'll still be gaining an extra edge over the other team simply because they are the in the lead. The reward for kills should come through gaining a positional advantage (map control), which allows you to build a better econ and earn more res. It's indirect, and fair. Almost every engagement that happens in this game is unfair (or should be if people aren't playing stupid) since it's asymmetrical with even player counts, it makes no sense to give direct rewards like rfk for that.
<!--quoteo(post=2056298:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:40 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 4 2013, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reward for kills should come through gaining a positional advantage (map control), which allows you to build a better econ and earn more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless of the implications of RFK, the 'no res while dead' is more or less universally agreed upon to be a terrible mechanic. RFK has never been tested, and it's not in the current balance mod.
Should try and keep the focus on convincing the devs to remove No Res While Dead rather than debate RFK.
<!--quoteo(post=2056298:date=Jan 4 2013, 08:40 PM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Jan 4 2013, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The size of the reward is irrelevant. If someone is in the lead, even at .1pres per kill, they'll still be gaining an extra edge over the other team simply because they are the in the lead. The reward for kills should come through gaining a positional advantage (map control), which allows you to build a better econ and earn more res. It's indirect, and fair. Almost every engagement that happens in this game is unfair (or should be if people aren't playing stupid) since it's asymmetrical with even player counts, it makes no sense to give direct rewards like rfk for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Pres for kills is annoying because it just means good players are immune to the RTS aspect of the game. Also its 99% of the time unfair because the pres distribution to combatants: 1) Sometimes will not account for anyone except final blow. 2) Spreads evenly even if damage delt was not even. 3) Does not account for support. Gorge healing the onos or the lerk spraying spores/umbra for cover.
Map control for the kill isn't terribly well implemented though since marines (and sometimes aliens) respawn too quickly. Both are also extremely mobile, so you can die and rejoin the engagement before it ends sometimes.
<!--quoteo(post=2056186:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:41 PM:name=lwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lwf @ Jan 4 2013, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't, everyone get their res from your own teams res towers. No more, no less. The numbers that pop up in the middle of your screen when you get the last bite/shot/swing/weld or build tick (which comes down to nothing but luck and randomness) is score only, but that's all that's you need to influence player behaviour (and NS2 doesn't do enough of this).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand the current resource system. I was pointing out how it discourages intended player behavior.
I detailed two ways the game could fix this: 1. Failure is penalized (no rez ticks while dead) but success is rewarded (rez rewards for structure/player kills), so players have an interesting time managing risk vs. reward, OR 2. Failure isn't penalized and success isn't rewarded. Not as interesting, but at least aggressive play isn't penalized.
The current system penalizes intended player behavior. Players who do tons of real damage to the enemy team (costing them resources or controlling areas) frequently end up with more deaths than their teammate. This results in a player who<i> uselessly idles in base</i> gaining <i>more personal resources </i>than a player actively fighting for their team. Clearly not a good system.
<!--quoteo(post=2056287:date=Jan 4 2013, 05:30 PM:name=YMICrazy502)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YMICrazy502 @ Jan 4 2013, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ughh 300 fade hp. Man this seems like a nightmare<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I sighed when I saw this. Fade doesn't need a buff. People need to learn how to play Fade. I've seen a good fade take out a room of marines.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2056311:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:03 PM:name=StriderNS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StriderNS2 @ Jan 4 2013, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. I sighed when I saw this. Fade doesn't need a buff. People need to learn how to play Fade. I've seen a good fade take out a room of <b>green</b> marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't want R4K in any form. I would rather there just be lifeform explosions. I think the ideal solution to that problem is to add something else for aliens to spend money on. This was never a problem in NS1 after all... Maybe we should try to bring back temp-gorging? Not like it was before, but just make it a viable option somehow. 3 Hydras and 10 Clogs isn't worth temp-gorging for, they're too helpless on their own. As a brainstorming idea, what if gorges were capable of investing resources into comm structures to strengthen them? It might also help if evolving Gorge was faster so people can swap in to heal stuff more easily.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
From reading the patch notes it sounds like it does more buffs to aliens even though they were a bit overpowered (at least in pub play) but in the games I played, it seemed reasonably fair. Tough to tell at the moment since it was a fairly green server.
<!--quoteo(post=2056330:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:43 PM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (6john @ Jan 4 2013, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From reading the patch notes it sounds like it does more buffs to aliens even though they were a bit overpowered (at least in pub play) but in the games I played, it seemed reasonably fair. Tough to tell at the moment since it was a fairly green server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the aliens are overpowered now. And all this patch does is make it worse. I don't get it. If the aliens are not OP in competitive play for whatever reason but are overopwered in public play, how many more people are seeing an imbalanced game? A lot more. Public play games should drive these changes more than competitive. Maybe aliens are winning more in competive too though. But if that is the case, what is UWE trying to do? Make their game worse for no reason?
Like I say, this upcoming patch stinks. The cyst health change is the only positive and it is basically the only good thing the marines get.
<!--quoteo(post=2056334:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:11 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 4 2013, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the aliens are overpowered now. And all this patch does is make it worse. I don't get it. If the aliens are not OP in competitive play for whatever reason but are overopwered in public play, how many more people are seeing an imbalanced game? A lot more. Public play games should drive these changes more than competitive. Maybe aliens are winning more in competive too though. But if that is the case, what is UWE trying to do? Make their game worse for no reason?
Like I say, this upcoming patch stinks. The cyst health change is the only positive and it is basically the only good thing the marines get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no one mentioned anything about competitive vs. public play, you are making a false argument out of nowhere.
obviously this isn't going into a release patch (that is why it is the optional upcoming balance mod), they want to experiment with making the "right" changes minimally while disregarding winrate until the larger patches. the purpose of this is to examine each change individually and how it fits into expected design goals instead of worrying about winrate.
and this is kind of why I posted the original thread in the other forums
<!--quoteo(post=2056347:date=Jan 4 2013, 10:59 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 4 2013, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one mentioned anything about competitive vs. public play, you are making a false argument out of nowhere.
obviously this isn't going into a release patch (that is why it is the optional upcoming balance mod), they want to experiment with making the "right" changes minimally while disregarding winrate until the larger patches. the purpose of this is to examine each change individually and how it fits into expected design goals instead of worrying about winrate.
and this is kind of why I posted the original thread in the other forums<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False argument out of nowhere? You're the only one implying it's an argument.
What's <i>actually </i>being done is someone is observing the simple reality of the situation: Aliens dominate pub play.
The only vaguely arguable statement implied by the previous posters is whether the patch nerfs marines more than it nerfs aliens. It <i>seems</i> to, but the cyst changes are pretty frickin brutal to aliens so I'm not sure it's totally an alien-favoring patch (although honestly, instant de-infest when killing cysts sounds like a pretty lame way to try to help marines. Lowering cyst HP and increasing cyst minimum radius are probably going to be good changes, but instant de-infestation is sort of ridiculous.)
As for win rate, that needs to be a pretty big part of what's being addressed in balance patches. The devs should figure out some way of divvying up average games (ns2stats.org?) and competitive games (the overwhelming minority; trackable by whatever competitive sites are running tournies) and figuring out what sorts of things need to change to maintain balance at each skill level. It's by no means an easy task (I should know, with ~12 years balancing games in the industry) but it definitely needs to factor into decision-making to avoid making a bad problem worse.
Win loss %'s have too many factors, just because aliens win does not mean they are necessarily OP'd. UWE have stated that win loss is not the only factor for balance, fun and enjoyment is key for both sides.
After a slow process (sometimes in wrong direction) skulk play is now fun for the most part, these changes look to focus more on the lerk and fade which are pretty under powered for the res investment.
No res when dead was a bad concept that punished a side that was struggling...considering the throw away nature of most alien lifeforms this ended up unfairly hitting mainly the alien teams economy. The issue it was trying to address was never going to be solved by this change. Lets hope we now get some more structures that the gorges can build that might be worth spending res on and stopping the lifeform explosion that way.
My only gripe is with the cyst and infestation changes, going to be too easy to disable the whips now, a marine with a JP and FT could shut down an entire room in seconds...I think this offers too much reward too quickly for killing cysts which would now both sap into alien economy and disable any whips instantly (unless the requirment for infestation has changed....?).
I would assume the no res when dead still being in is a bug, simply because its in (well was) two places. Currently the aliens would get res based on how many people are playing, which is an improvement over before (was over how many were alive). The current system would have no res lost, but people who are alive would get a portion more (for those that are dead). The intent of the change (i hope) is to remove it completely, so line 900 in PlayingTeam.lua needs to change.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->if player and player:GetIsAlive() and not player:isa("Commander") then
to
if player and not player:isa("Commander") then<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Cyst HP change is not needed with instant recede in my opinion, and alien respawn changes are desperately need to go along with this patch.
<!--quoteo(post=2056377:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:27 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 4 2013, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My only gripe is with the cyst and infestation changes, going to be too easy to disable the whips now, a marine with a JP and FT could shut down an entire room in seconds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh hey what does that sound like, I'll give you a hint, its round, sits on a wall and does nothing except make the game boring and stale to gorges
<!--quoteo(post=2056393:date=Jan 5 2013, 04:16 PM:name=Angry Child)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Child @ Jan 5 2013, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh hey what does that sound like, I'll give you a hint, its round, sits on a wall and does nothing except make the game boring and stale to gorges<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope, sorry you clearly miss the point....try being less angry and more knowledgeable. This is not a simple siege breaking mechanic (which is why we have power nodes) but one that actually renders the only offensive weapon useless. Sentry's still fire when the power is out....whips will not work when not in infestation. Also I dont believe it actually costs anything for power nodes...but it does for an alien khamm to lay down cysts.
The cyst changes seem a little overkill and by the looks of it the instant infestation removal will absolutely wreck whips, unless they are made to no longer unroot when the infestation clears. The mine change is completely unnecessary, the other changes look good, though there is still a big need for fundamental balance and design changes to make this game better. (Overimportance of alien second hive, total inability for aliens to comeback when they fall back on just first hive lategame, useless sentries, overimportance of phase tech. etc)
<!--quoteo(post=2056347:date=Jan 4 2013, 10:59 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 4 2013, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one mentioned anything about competitive vs. public play, you are making a false argument out of nowhere.
obviously this isn't going into a release patch (that is why it is the optional upcoming balance mod), they want to experiment with making the "right" changes minimally while disregarding winrate until the larger patches. the purpose of this is to examine each change individually and how it fits into expected design goals instead of worrying about winrate.
and this is kind of why I posted the original thread in the other forums
please shed light on no res while dead revert<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care if public versus competetive came up earlier or not. I AM BRINGING IT UP. Marines are getting ripped apart in "public" play. The way most people including myself play. I have been keeping my own personal stats and they have won 63% of the games I've played. To be honest I don't even know what exactly "competitive" play is. But what I think is the ratio of public play versus compettive play is much higher but the ratio of public players posting on this forum to competitive players is much lower. The NS2 competitive "heros" out there keep saying how this game is fine, marines win enough, just learn to shoot. Learn to play. It is a$$hats like you that are drowning out many more people saying the game needs work AND ITS NOT FUN when you can bet the marines will lose.
If you look at the proposed changes coming up, UWE seems to be listening to you, Mr. "NS2 Hero" and not the statistics or the rest of the community.
Also, someone posted that this balance mod is not going into the real game. That is not true. UWE wrote this mod specifcally to test upcoming balance changes. This is going in build 236 unless people complain badly enough about it which I am trying to do.
<!--quoteo(post=2056459:date=Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't care if public versus competetive came up earlier or not. I AM BRINGING IT UP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> okay
<!--quoteo(post=2056459:date=Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines are getting ripped apart in "public" play. The way most people including myself play. I have been keeping my own personal stats and they have won 63% of the games I've played. <b>To be honest I don't even know what exactly "competitive" play is.</b> But what I think is the ratio of public play versus compettive play is much higher but the ratio of public players posting on this forum to competitive players is much lower. The NS2 competitive "heros" out there keep saying how this game is fine, marines win enough, just learn to shoot. Learn to play. It is a$$hats like you that are drowning out many more people saying the game needs work AND ITS NOT FUN when you can bet the marines will lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually we're all playing the same game and aliens have the upper hand in competitive play as well. we are all complaining about the same issues. you are taking the opinion of a few dissenters and using it to represent the majority. nowhere in this thread has anyone claimed anything remotely close to what you are describing.
<!--quoteo(post=2056459:date=Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, someone posted that this balance mod is not going into the real game. That is not true. UWE wrote this mod specifcally to test upcoming balance changes. This is going in build 236 unless people complain badly enough about it which I am trying to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the initial wording was that these changes are a step-by-step process, so these buffs to aliens and nerfs to marines are not necessarily the entire picture. in competitive play it is much easier to isolate the variables that were changed (such as having res while dead) without worrying about winrate. the changes that will make it into the patch will be a more fleshed out and finished version of this, which is why it's pointless to discuss winrates instead of focusing on how good the changes are for the game overall.
In my opinion, some of these proposed changes are terrible!
Firstly, yes, something needs to be done about the cyst spam, but combining lower (initial) health, larger radius cysts and instant infestation removal is not the answer. It really makes a decent JP flamethower marine incredibly deadly, and if whip behaviour is unchanged, they'll become a total waste of resources (although you could argue this brings them in line with sentries).
Equally, I disagree with Pres whilst dead... Yes it should make people slightly more aggressive. But as it stands, Aliens already have very little reason for most of the team to invest any Pres until onos is available, and this'll only speed up their arrival further... The amount of matches where Aliens suddenly get 3-4 onos's at once is ridiculous and unless marines are in a very strong position it's usually game over. Marines simply need to spend res more frequently to stay competitive and can't spam any 1 specific weapon (or exo's) like the aliens can and hope to succeed.
The extension to marine respawn time 'could' work, and give the aliens an edge at taking out turtles, but it could also make early base rushes too easy for the aliens, in addition to which, it'll be only around 3 seconds faster than alien spawn times and the mobility of aliens is just so much greater than marines that they really need those extra 2 seconds... hypothetically, lets say 1 marine and skulk both die in the same place at the same time... short of having a pg VERY close, the skulk will always get back there first, even over longer distances...this change will give them another 2 seconds to push further up the map each time! Similarly, you lose a big fight as marines and 4 of you go down.. you now have to wait up to 36 seconds (though more likely 18secs with 2 ip's) before your all back in the fight...how is that going to promote sticking together? who's going to wait that long for their squad to respawn when aliens are pressuring areas. Sure it doesn't seem much in isolation but over the course of a match with 6-8 marines, those seconds add up to minutes where marines are down 1+ men.
Mines are already weak, with skulks surviving a blast so long as they are moving quickly when one detonates and have a hefty price tag for such little bang.. dropping their health so aliens can destroy them even easier will almost make them entirely useless unless a brain dead or injured alien doesn't spot it and triggers it.
I can't comment on the EMP buff as i never see it used anyway, so have no idea of it's effectivness. I also have no feelings either way towards the increased cooldown on the nanoshield assist.
The grenade range nerf is a tricky one...if whips no longer work when infestation is removed, it's essential to reduce their damage capability, and it may also help avoid player deaths when grenades bounce off teammates walking into your line of fire, but equally they are specialist weapons designed for breaching defences and taking out structures, not taking out alien lifeforms. If they get too close to structures being bombarded with grenades, then they only have themselves to blame. GL's take a while to reload, come with limited ammo and are useless at hitting evading lifeforms and as such arn't too difficult to counter. Personally, i don't see the need for a nerf, but my playtime is a little too limited with it to give strong opinions on the matter.
I have no objections to a fade hp buff as it makes them more viable for players to drop the Pres on them instead of saving for an onos as they're less likely to lose them (but they're certainly still capable of going down when over-committing). Similarly I have no objection to lowering upgrade prices for the alien structure abilities or raising the research costs for Weapons and Armour.
It's worth noting that I haven't played with any of these changes and these are simply the opinions I have based on the information presented rather than through experience in-game.
<!--quoteo(post=2056459:date=Jan 5 2013, 01:15 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 5 2013, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you look at the proposed changes coming up, UWE seems to be listening to you, Mr. "NS2 Hero" and not the statistics or the rest of the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> May I direct your attention to the front page news post again regarding how we go about balancing the game? It is not a matter of listening to comp players vs pub players, it is about making changes to the game that are necessary to improve it in the long run.
The changes in this balance patch do buff aliens quite a bit, but they are changes that have been requested from the community for quite some time, and we personally feel they are an improvement to the game, both competitively and on the pub side. The flip side, of course, is that marines are already having a hard time on pubs, and that is not something we are just ignoring. The problem is, that is a larger issue with many factors, including factors outside of gameplay. For example, people who are experiencing large framerate drops in combat likely suffer more on the marine side then the alien side, due to the nature of the range vs melee, and the speed at which aliens move. There is also a very different learning curve between marines and aliens. Typically for a new player, it is easier to pick up the marine side of the game, due to its familiarity, whereas new alien players have a hard time being as effective due to the drastically different playstyle required. But once a player does start to learn the game, and learn how to move and dodge and use all the abilities and upgrades as an alien, it seems like it then skews the other way, with newer marine players struggling more to be able to hit the very fast moving aliens.
We are working on the problem of the balance being skewed too much in the alien's favor, and a few changes, such as the ones made to cysts, are meant to be a step towards addressing it. However, because the problems are generally deeper then just tweaking some numbers on the marine side, it is going to require more thought and more time to sort out the best way to properly address the issue, without resorting to temporary fixes that are bad for the game in the long run. <!--quoteo(post=2056485:date=Jan 5 2013, 03:21 PM:name=Chizzler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chizzler @ Jan 5 2013, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's worth noting that I haven't played with any of these changes and these are simply the opinions I have based on the information presented rather than through experience in-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We highly encourage everyone to try and play the balance mod, before getting caught up in arguing the pros and cons of these changes. The feedback is far more useful to us, coming from players who have actual experience playing the mod.
tldr version: actual balance too hard to achieve, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, here are some changes we'll throw in regardless because "the community" wants them
Honestly, i'd echo the changes on Cysts, mostly on the basis of the instant infestation removal. As an Alien Commander, I've to come to loath a certain type of Marine. They are the Marine that will pick up a Flamethrower and a Jetpack and flame my entire cyst chain down. Faster than I can recreate it, now imagine 2 of these marines going in two different directions, intercepting them becomes a high priority for the sheer fact that if they are left alone for 30 seconds, 5+ Rooms are completely decysted and burning to the ground. This instant infestation removal will make this issue more than likely 2-10x worse. No matter the issue that will be with Whips, and good bye ending a game with a Whip sneak attack, just get out of command station, hit the Cyst in the base and boom, all whips are uprooted and useless and 20 T.Res(25 before patch) is wasted. Whips will become if anything a thing you only place around a hive to bounce GLs back. No longer an option to use around the map as a defensive structure due to the nature of the instant-infestation removal. Even thinking of the lessening of the health will make it even easier to instantly remove the infestation from a room.
I can't help but think this problem is being approached from the wrong direction, no where did I see a post on these forums indicating a "wish" or a "want" for the instant removal of infestation, the only post I see is talking about a graphics option to disable infestation for performance concerns.
The way i'd like to see the cyst spam issue be addressed is simply putting a cap of say 10 cysts for a small room, 20 for a bigger room, and if you increase the radius a cyst infests you can get away with a smaller number. I know that would make Alien commanders happy, especially ones that cyst rooms to insure no sneaky Phase Gates are placed down in a corner and a back-assault is used, for when that one sneaky marine gets by your drifter sentries while you aren't looking.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
one quick note: it'd be much easier to try out the balance mod if it showed up as a different game type. It's not the most clear thing to find out what mods a server is running. Ideally, I'd like an info panel in the server list that would show what mods the selected server has running, which would also be displayed during the loading screen, but that's a separate request.
<!--quoteo(post=2056566:date=Jan 5 2013, 12:19 PM:name=TSADrone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TSADrone @ Jan 5 2013, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tldr version: actual balance too hard to achieve, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, here are some changes we'll throw in regardless because "the community" wants them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, not really. Some of these changes have some decent reasoning to them. Not necessarily just idiots crying so they made the changes.
Comments
It might work *ok* at 6v6 but even at 1pres it still completely breaks pub play. Even with other changes to help balance it out it's still just not worth it imo since it's always going to be a case of making the strong stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2056169:date=Jan 4 2013, 04:56 PM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Jan 4 2013, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
Even with Res for Kills down to something minuscule like .25 for a Marine/Skulk it wouldn't give better players that big of an advantage, but still create variety in the lifeform explosion and when weapons appear on the field. You'd have to kill a hefty 8 skulks for a 2 pres advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that if RFK is implemented then it needs a scale down in pres income as well. I'm not sure that happened. I also agree that it is a huge problem in large 20p or 24p servers because one or two good players will wrack up 10 or 15 kills in the first few minutes, potentially halving the time it takes to get their onos or fade.
It's also a problem given how powerful the onos is. If he wasn't so powerful with no upgrades/abilities, then a 5m onos would be weak (or at least fightable) like a 5m fade is now.
Also not sure why GL needed a range nerf. People are still going to shoot it at their friends feet, just now it will be less useful for clearing rooms of structures.
I agree with this part 100%.
Should try and keep the focus on convincing the devs to remove No Res While Dead rather than debate RFK.
I agree. Pres for kills is annoying because it just means good players are immune to the RTS aspect of the game. Also its 99% of the time unfair because the pres distribution to combatants:
1) Sometimes will not account for anyone except final blow.
2) Spreads evenly even if damage delt was not even.
3) Does not account for support. Gorge healing the onos or the lerk spraying spores/umbra for cover.
Map control for the kill isn't terribly well implemented though since marines (and sometimes aliens) respawn too quickly. Both are also extremely mobile, so you can die and rejoin the engagement before it ends sometimes.
I understand the current resource system. I was pointing out how it discourages intended player behavior.
I detailed two ways the game could fix this:
1. Failure is penalized (no rez ticks while dead) but success is rewarded (rez rewards for structure/player kills), so players have an interesting time managing risk vs. reward, OR
2. Failure isn't penalized and success isn't rewarded. Not as interesting, but at least aggressive play isn't penalized.
The current system penalizes intended player behavior. Players who do tons of real damage to the enemy team (costing them resources or controlling areas) frequently end up with more deaths than their teammate. This results in a player who<i> uselessly idles in base</i> gaining <i>more personal resources </i>than a player actively fighting for their team. Clearly not a good system.
Agreed. I sighed when I saw this. Fade doesn't need a buff. People need to learn how to play Fade. I've seen a good fade take out a room of marines.
I fixed your post. You're welcome.
Yeah, the aliens are overpowered now. And all this patch does is make it worse. I don't get it. If the aliens are not OP in competitive play for whatever reason but are overopwered in public play, how many more people are seeing an imbalanced game? A lot more. Public play games should drive these changes more than competitive. Maybe aliens are winning more in competive too though. But if that is the case, what is UWE trying to do? Make their game worse for no reason?
Like I say, this upcoming patch stinks. The cyst health change is the only positive and it is basically the only good thing the marines get.
Like I say, this upcoming patch stinks. The cyst health change is the only positive and it is basically the only good thing the marines get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no one mentioned anything about competitive vs. public play, you are making a false argument out of nowhere.
obviously this isn't going into a release patch (that is why it is the optional upcoming balance mod), they want to experiment with making the "right" changes minimally while disregarding winrate until the larger patches. the purpose of this is to examine each change individually and how it fits into expected design goals instead of worrying about winrate.
and this is kind of why I posted the original thread in the other forums
please shed light on no res while dead revert
obviously this isn't going into a release patch (that is why it is the optional upcoming balance mod), they want to experiment with making the "right" changes minimally while disregarding winrate until the larger patches. the purpose of this is to examine each change individually and how it fits into expected design goals instead of worrying about winrate.
and this is kind of why I posted the original thread in the other forums<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False argument out of nowhere? You're the only one implying it's an argument.
What's <i>actually </i>being done is someone is observing the simple reality of the situation: Aliens dominate pub play.
The only vaguely arguable statement implied by the previous posters is whether the patch nerfs marines more than it nerfs aliens. It <i>seems</i> to, but the cyst changes are pretty frickin brutal to aliens so I'm not sure it's totally an alien-favoring patch (although honestly, instant de-infest when killing cysts sounds like a pretty lame way to try to help marines. Lowering cyst HP and increasing cyst minimum radius are probably going to be good changes, but instant de-infestation is sort of ridiculous.)
As for win rate, that needs to be a pretty big part of what's being addressed in balance patches. The devs should figure out some way of divvying up average games (ns2stats.org?) and competitive games (the overwhelming minority; trackable by whatever competitive sites are running tournies) and figuring out what sorts of things need to change to maintain balance at each skill level. It's by no means an easy task (I should know, with ~12 years balancing games in the industry) but it definitely needs to factor into decision-making to avoid making a bad problem worse.
UWE have stated that win loss is not the only factor for balance, fun and enjoyment is key for both sides.
After a slow process (sometimes in wrong direction) skulk play is now fun for the most part, these changes look to focus more on the lerk and fade which are pretty under powered for the res investment.
No res when dead was a bad concept that punished a side that was struggling...considering the throw away nature of most alien lifeforms this ended up unfairly hitting mainly the alien teams economy.
The issue it was trying to address was never going to be solved by this change. Lets hope we now get some more structures that the gorges can build that might be worth spending res on and stopping the lifeform explosion that way.
My only gripe is with the cyst and infestation changes, going to be too easy to disable the whips now, a marine with a JP and FT could shut down an entire room in seconds...I think this offers too much reward too quickly for killing cysts which would now both sap into alien economy and disable any whips instantly (unless the requirment for infestation has changed....?).
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->if player and player:GetIsAlive() and not player:isa("Commander") then
to
if player and not player:isa("Commander") then<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Cyst HP change is not needed with instant recede in my opinion, and alien respawn changes are desperately need to go along with this patch.
Oh hey what does that sound like, I'll give you a hint, its round, sits on a wall and does nothing except make the game boring and stale to gorges
Nope, sorry you clearly miss the point....try being less angry and more knowledgeable.
This is not a simple siege breaking mechanic (which is why we have power nodes) but one that actually renders the only offensive weapon useless.
Sentry's still fire when the power is out....whips will not work when not in infestation.
Also I dont believe it actually costs anything for power nodes...but it does for an alien khamm to lay down cysts.
obviously this isn't going into a release patch (that is why it is the optional upcoming balance mod), they want to experiment with making the "right" changes minimally while disregarding winrate until the larger patches. the purpose of this is to examine each change individually and how it fits into expected design goals instead of worrying about winrate.
and this is kind of why I posted the original thread in the other forums
please shed light on no res while dead revert<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care if public versus competetive came up earlier or not. I AM BRINGING IT UP. Marines are getting ripped apart in "public" play. The way most people including myself play. I have been keeping my own personal stats and they have won 63% of the games I've played. To be honest I don't even know what exactly "competitive" play is. But what I think is the ratio of public play versus compettive play is much higher but the ratio of public players posting on this forum to competitive players is much lower. The NS2 competitive "heros" out there keep saying how this game is fine, marines win enough, just learn to shoot. Learn to play. It is a$$hats like you that are drowning out many more people saying the game needs work AND ITS NOT FUN when you can bet the marines will lose.
If you look at the proposed changes coming up, UWE seems to be listening to you, Mr. "NS2 Hero" and not the statistics or the rest of the community.
Also, someone posted that this balance mod is not going into the real game. That is not true. UWE wrote this mod specifcally to test upcoming balance changes. This is going in build 236 unless people complain badly enough about it which I am trying to do.
okay
<!--quoteo(post=2056459:date=Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines are getting ripped apart in "public" play. The way most people including myself play. I have been keeping my own personal stats and they have won 63% of the games I've played. <b>To be honest I don't even know what exactly "competitive" play is.</b> But what I think is the ratio of public play versus compettive play is much higher but the ratio of public players posting on this forum to competitive players is much lower. The NS2 competitive "heros" out there keep saying how this game is fine, marines win enough, just learn to shoot. Learn to play. It is a$$hats like you that are drowning out many more people saying the game needs work AND ITS NOT FUN when you can bet the marines will lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually we're all playing the same game and aliens have the upper hand in competitive play as well. we are all complaining about the same issues. you are taking the opinion of a few dissenters and using it to represent the majority. nowhere in this thread has anyone claimed anything remotely close to what you are describing.
<!--quoteo(post=2056459:date=Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 5 2013, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, someone posted that this balance mod is not going into the real game. That is not true. UWE wrote this mod specifcally to test upcoming balance changes. This is going in build 236 unless people complain badly enough about it which I am trying to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the initial wording was that these changes are a step-by-step process, so these buffs to aliens and nerfs to marines are not necessarily the entire picture. in competitive play it is much easier to isolate the variables that were changed (such as having res while dead) without worrying about winrate. the changes that will make it into the patch will be a more fleshed out and finished version of this, which is why it's pointless to discuss winrates instead of focusing on how good the changes are for the game overall.
Firstly, yes, something needs to be done about the cyst spam, but combining lower (initial) health, larger radius cysts and instant infestation removal is not the answer. It really makes a decent JP flamethower marine incredibly deadly, and if whip behaviour is unchanged, they'll become a total waste of resources (although you could argue this brings them in line with sentries).
Equally, I disagree with Pres whilst dead... Yes it should make people slightly more aggressive. But as it stands, Aliens already have very little reason for most of the team to invest any Pres until onos is available, and this'll only speed up their arrival further... The amount of matches where Aliens suddenly get 3-4 onos's at once is ridiculous and unless marines are in a very strong position it's usually game over. Marines simply need to spend res more frequently to stay competitive and can't spam any 1 specific weapon (or exo's) like the aliens can and hope to succeed.
The extension to marine respawn time 'could' work, and give the aliens an edge at taking out turtles, but it could also make early base rushes too easy for the aliens, in addition to which, it'll be only around 3 seconds faster than alien spawn times and the mobility of aliens is just so much greater than marines that they really need those extra 2 seconds... hypothetically, lets say 1 marine and skulk both die in the same place at the same time... short of having a pg VERY close, the skulk will always get back there first, even over longer distances...this change will give them another 2 seconds to push further up the map each time! Similarly, you lose a big fight as marines and 4 of you go down.. you now have to wait up to 36 seconds (though more likely 18secs with 2 ip's) before your all back in the fight...how is that going to promote sticking together? who's going to wait that long for their squad to respawn when aliens are pressuring areas. Sure it doesn't seem much in isolation but over the course of a match with 6-8 marines, those seconds add up to minutes where marines are down 1+ men.
Mines are already weak, with skulks surviving a blast so long as they are moving quickly when one detonates and have a hefty price tag for such little bang.. dropping their health so aliens can destroy them even easier will almost make them entirely useless unless a brain dead or injured alien doesn't spot it and triggers it.
I can't comment on the EMP buff as i never see it used anyway, so have no idea of it's effectivness. I also have no feelings either way towards the increased cooldown on the nanoshield assist.
The grenade range nerf is a tricky one...if whips no longer work when infestation is removed, it's essential to reduce their damage capability, and it may also help avoid player deaths when grenades bounce off teammates walking into your line of fire, but equally they are specialist weapons designed for breaching defences and taking out structures, not taking out alien lifeforms. If they get too close to structures being bombarded with grenades, then they only have themselves to blame. GL's take a while to reload, come with limited ammo and are useless at hitting evading lifeforms and as such arn't too difficult to counter. Personally, i don't see the need for a nerf, but my playtime is a little too limited with it to give strong opinions on the matter.
I have no objections to a fade hp buff as it makes them more viable for players to drop the Pres on them instead of saving for an onos as they're less likely to lose them (but they're certainly still capable of going down when over-committing). Similarly I have no objection to lowering upgrade prices for the alien structure abilities or raising the research costs for Weapons and Armour.
It's worth noting that I haven't played with any of these changes and these are simply the opinions I have based on the information presented rather than through experience in-game.
May I direct your attention to the front page news post again regarding how we go about balancing the game? It is not a matter of listening to comp players vs pub players, it is about making changes to the game that are necessary to improve it in the long run.
The changes in this balance patch do buff aliens quite a bit, but they are changes that have been requested from the community for quite some time, and we personally feel they are an improvement to the game, both competitively and on the pub side. The flip side, of course, is that marines are already having a hard time on pubs, and that is not something we are just ignoring. The problem is, that is a larger issue with many factors, including factors outside of gameplay. For example, people who are experiencing large framerate drops in combat likely suffer more on the marine side then the alien side, due to the nature of the range vs melee, and the speed at which aliens move. There is also a very different learning curve between marines and aliens. Typically for a new player, it is easier to pick up the marine side of the game, due to its familiarity, whereas new alien players have a hard time being as effective due to the drastically different playstyle required. But once a player does start to learn the game, and learn how to move and dodge and use all the abilities and upgrades as an alien, it seems like it then skews the other way, with newer marine players struggling more to be able to hit the very fast moving aliens.
We are working on the problem of the balance being skewed too much in the alien's favor, and a few changes, such as the ones made to cysts, are meant to be a step towards addressing it. However, because the problems are generally deeper then just tweaking some numbers on the marine side, it is going to require more thought and more time to sort out the best way to properly address the issue, without resorting to temporary fixes that are bad for the game in the long run.
<!--quoteo(post=2056485:date=Jan 5 2013, 03:21 PM:name=Chizzler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chizzler @ Jan 5 2013, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's worth noting that I haven't played with any of these changes and these are simply the opinions I have based on the information presented rather than through experience in-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We highly encourage everyone to try and play the balance mod, before getting caught up in arguing the pros and cons of these changes. The feedback is far more useful to us, coming from players who have actual experience playing the mod.
--Cory
I can't help but think this problem is being approached from the wrong direction, no where did I see a post on these forums indicating a "wish" or a "want" for the instant removal of infestation, the only post I see is talking about a graphics option to disable infestation for performance concerns.
The way i'd like to see the cyst spam issue be addressed is simply putting a cap of say 10 cysts for a small room, 20 for a bigger room, and if you increase the radius a cyst infests you can get away with a smaller number. I know that would make Alien commanders happy, especially ones that cyst rooms to insure no sneaky Phase Gates are placed down in a corner and a back-assault is used, for when that one sneaky marine gets by your drifter sentries while you aren't looking.
Nah, not really. Some of these changes have some decent reasoning to them. Not necessarily just idiots crying so they made the changes.