<!--quoteo(post=2057190:date=Jan 7 2013, 03:21 PM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Jan 7 2013, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just make an UWE server a official test server. Then make some sort of beta version/ MOD that allows anyone to test the game or variant of the game for you. Maybe even create an in game tool that allows reporting for the simpleton. Possible make a quick demonstration video on bug/ tweak reporting. A lot of games have beta test realms/ game version for a reason. It allows many different perspectives and eye's on the changes that the game might possibly implement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2057185:date=Jan 6 2013, 07:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 6 2013, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really cool seeing soo many people applying! Going to be a lot of reading for Obraxis, Wasabi and I. :-P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please take the time to look over my application thoroughly. I made quite a compelling case. Choosing me is probably the best thing you guys could ever do. Kind of like if you ever take a hot bath with some chicks in Thailand. Must watch out for certain girls there though as they may actually be guys. Either way it can be a good time.
And if the above paragraph seemed odd, just try reading the first letter of each sentence.
<!--quoteo(post=2057190:date=Jan 6 2013, 08:21 PM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Jan 6 2013, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just make an UWE server a official test server. Then make some sort of beta version/ MOD that allows anyone to test the game or variant of the game for you. Maybe even create an in game tool that allows reporting for the simpleton. Possible make a quick demonstration video on bug/ tweak reporting. A lot of games have beta test realms/ game version for a reason. It allows many different perspectives and eye's on the changes that the game might possibly implement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such a thing does actually exist. If you go into the properties tab for natural selection 2 on steam and click betas, there is an option for it. Not sure if it's testing or the other but I'm pretty sure it's testing.
No offense, but it sounds like you are looking for more Quality Assurance (QA) testers (not playtesters) based on Ironhorses' definition. The whole PT name seem misleading for what you guys do.
<!--quoteo(post=2057185:date=Jan 6 2013, 09:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 6 2013, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really cool seeing soo many people applying! Going to be a lot of reading for Obraxis, Wasabi and I. :-P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mine is the easy one to spot, it's the funny one with jokes.
<!--quoteo(post=2057054:date=Jan 6 2013, 10:05 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 6 2013, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, after all the semantics, is there ever going to be a team to test balance and gameplay or are we doomed to have glorified QA testers poking their noses in every once in a while?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playtests often involve checking a large list of these against claims of 'fixing' by any number of people named Brian. (Love you Brian!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait what? Theres a Brian on the dev team? No wonder someone thought I was an NS2 dev the other day.
<!--quoteo(post=2057985:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:57 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 8 2013, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, after all the semantics, is there ever going to be a team to test balance and gameplay or are we doomed to have glorified QA testers poking their noses in every once in a while?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We already have a competetive map testing team who give feedback for balance on maps, who also give other feedback, just like the PT Team.
Also "Poking their noses in" suggests you think that NS2 is personally yours to decide on it's balance future and that the Playtest Group should have no input. I'd like to think that we have teams of people from both the Public side & members who play regularly in the ENSL league competitively for a good balance of thoughts and skills. In a game played by so many different people with different skill levels all over the world, I think it's a good idea to make sure we're not just looking at a single point of view.
<!--quoteo(post=2058061:date=Jan 9 2013, 09:10 AM:name=bp2008)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bp2008 @ Jan 9 2013, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait what? Theres a Brian on the dev team? No wonder someone thought I was an NS2 dev the other day.
Been playing games as "Brian" for ages...
Even released a few ns2 maps under that name...
And now everyone thinks I am someone else. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->There are actually two devs with that name: Brian "Murphy" Cronin (#1) and Brian "Chops" Cummings (#2). The blog post is referring to #1, who joins us for almost every PT session.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2057985:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:57 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 9 2013, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, after all the semantics, is there ever going to be a team to test balance and gameplay or are we doomed to have glorified QA testers poking their noses in every once in a while?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->If you read the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/12/ns2_balance_and_feedback_process" target="_blank">previous blog post</a> explaining the balancing process, you'll see that there is in fact now a balance "strike team" consisting of top competitive players. They are responsible for what goes into the official upcoming balance mod.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Games too early to have "top" anything. Hopefully within a couple of years we will have a professional competitive community such as Counter-Strike had. But it's cool some dedicated players are trying to help.
^ I am trying to set up a competitive side! But this game has a long way to go with the server side and client side. I will do the best I can. And if I can help in any way i will. I have many resources.
<!--quoteo(post=2058065:date=Jan 8 2013, 11:21 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jan 8 2013, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We already have a competitive map testing team who give feedback for balance on maps, who also give other feedback, just like the PT Team.
Also "Poking their noses in" suggests you think that NS2 is personally yours to decide on it's balance future and that the Playtest Group should have no input. I'd like to think that we have teams of people from both the Public side & members who play regularly in the ENSL league competitively for a good balance of thoughts and skills. In a game played by so many different people with different skill levels all over the world, I think it's a good idea to make sure we're not just looking at a single point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> By "poking noses in", I mean to say that there's a non-formalized, but nevertheless present, discussion that occurs with people who are recruited for QA-testing purposes. I have a great deal of respect for you Obraxis - you know that - but your reply reinforces my confusions/suspicions.
Is the competitive map-testing team providing guidance on other things like gameplay/balance then? I know many who share my greivances still and, while I was a part of that team, when we highlighted that the culprit for much of "map gameplay" was less the fault of the maps and more the consequence of other factors, we were curtly told to remain focused on the maps only (understandable in the context of map testers, but not as providers of other feedback).
Are you selecting playtesters for QA purposes or are you choosing candidates that are qualified for balance/gameplay feedback also? On the one hand, it appears that the notion that playtesters comment on balance can't be distanced from enough and we are reminded that they are bugtesters first and foremost. Then we hear that they have the ear of UWE in a casual way. Then you write that you're gathering people from both public and competitive which implies that the composition is constructed to give broad and balanced ideas and feedback on the game (not just QA and maps). If that's the case, I fall back on my concerns that the team is pretty poorly equipped to that.
Either way, I've always maintained (you will already know this from our discussions, of course) that NS2 needs a dedicated team for this job which actually has some oomph, rather than the hodge-podge of sources that are cherry-picked at developers' leisure. At some point, we can't rely on dedicated individuals like yourself to compose vast justifications with good reason and strong data to champion (insert: ram down throats!) good suggestions of valid criticisms as these can always be played down as the idea of one because there are plenty of ill-conceived and ill-thought out ideas to fall back on for support.
I say this not as a criticism of the currents testers <i>per se</i>. Rather, I believe the way in which the team has been composed has compounded the issue of unfortunate game direction which, I think, has suffered from the lack of concentrated and reputable game feedback from people who know NS2 well <i>as a player</i>. It is a poor substitute for the depth of feedback that such teams provide for most other games worth mentioning.
<!--quoteo(post=2058086:date=Jan 8 2013, 11:43 PM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Jan 8 2013, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->If you read the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/12/ns2_balance_and_feedback_process" target="_blank">previous blog post</a> explaining the balancing process, you'll see that there is in fact now a balance "strike team" consisting of top competitive players. They are responsible for what goes into the official upcoming balance mod.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just read it, sounds like a step in the right direction. Forgive me for reserving my judgement though as it's a little late in the day and I've seen the way these things pan out before.
<!--quoteo(post=2058543:date=Jan 9 2013, 03:06 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 9 2013, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is the competitive map-testing team providing guidance on other things like gameplay/balance then? I know many who share my greivances still and, while I was a part of that team, when we highlighted that the culprit for much of "map gameplay" was less the fault of the maps and more the consequence of other factors, we were curtly told to remain focused on the maps only (understandable in the context of map testers, but not as providers of other feedback).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To clarify, 99% of Map Testing feedback that gets submitted is about maps. We make no suggestions toward gameplay balance that is not already in the general dialogue of the competitive community here on the forums (even then it is mostly just chatter in our teamspeak - in which a Dev is not present).
<!--quoteo(post=2058254:date=Jan 8 2013, 11:58 PM:name=silentsushix3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (silentsushix3 @ Jan 8 2013, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ I am trying to set up a competitive side! But this game has a long way to go with the server side and client side. I will do the best I can. And if I can help in any way i will. I have many resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.ensl.org/" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/</a> there's already a competitive side that's alive and well with quite a few teams. Sometimes scheduling is pretty difficult though.
I wish I had time to put aside for this but I'm taking 6 classes (UDK,Programming,3D animation, Game prototype, Intermediate Game, QA) next semester (need to keep that 4.0GPA up) in addition I'm also on the equestrian team along doing IT workstudy. There also my internship I also have that ends in like a month or so. O well maybe over the summer.
<!--quoteo(post=2058731:date=Jan 9 2013, 09:58 PM:name=Sp3cia1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sp3cia1 @ Jan 9 2013, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish I had time to put aside for this but I'm taking 6 classes (UDK,Programming,3D animation, Game prototype, Intermediate Game, QA) next semester (need to keep that 4.0GPA up) in addition I'm also on the equestrian team along doing IT workstudy. There also my internship I also have that ends in like a month or so. O well maybe over the summer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm the Galactic Space President of the Universe and I still applied.
<!--quoteo(post=2058545:date=Jan 9 2013, 01:11 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jan 9 2013, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To clarify, 99% of Map Testing feedback that gets submitted is about maps. We make no suggestions toward gameplay balance that is not already in the general dialogue of the competitive community here on the forums (even then it is mostly just chatter in our teamspeak - in which a Dev is not present).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2058543:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:06 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 9 2013, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I say this not as a criticism of the currents testers <i>per se</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know you're trying really hard not to but that's how it comes across. I don't know where this idea that the testers should be responsible for balance and gameplay came from. While there are people, including myself, who have very strong opinions on these issues and are just as frustrated as you are, we are and have always been a QA team.
Throughout development we've worked hard to make sure that there aren't any game breaking bugs in the game before a build goes out to the public. Then the community as a whole is used to gather data about balance and the current state of the game, all part of the open development process.
Now, obviously since the game went "live" things have had to change so as to not completely upset the balance from build to build (which wasn't as important before while in beta). Perhaps the devs were a bit slow to implement these changes, but it definitely looks like things are moving in the right direction.
1) The playtesters are near the top of the chain for gameplay and balance feedback and therefore need to be competent in that role. or 2) The playtesters barely provide gameplay and balance feedback and a proper team should be created for that role. <i>(no smart arses who say it's in the middle, please)</i>
My stance is probably confusing because of the plurality of responses and eerie vibes I get. I drum on about it alot because, when I was a playtester, I saw some seriously stupid things bandied about in campfire <i><b>all the time</b></i> - ts3/ventrilo was even worse.
<!--quoteo(post=2058966:date=Jan 10 2013, 11:56 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 10 2013, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup yup. My point is either;
1) The playtesters are near the top of the chain for gameplay and balance feedback and therefore need to be competent in that role. or 2) The playtesters barely provide gameplay and balance feedback and a proper team should be created for that role. <i>(no smart arses who say it's in the middle, please)</i>
My stance is probably confusing because of the plurality of responses and eerie vibes I get. I drum on about it alot because, when I was a playtester, I saw some seriously stupid things bandied about in campfire <i><b>all the time</b></i> - ts3/ventrilo was even worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't top of the chain for gameplay and balance feedback really, I think the comp matches are actually the biggest influence for that. At least that is according to the flowchart Flayra posted not long ago. It seems like the playtesters do what they're supposed to for the most part which is report bugs and junk.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2059004:date=Jan 10 2013, 05:12 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 10 2013, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059004"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like the playtesters do what they're supposed to for the most part which is report bugs and junk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2059062:date=Jan 11 2013, 01:56 AM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Jan 11 2013, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wonder how many will stick around after their first few tests<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Hire this man.
Going to be a lot of reading for Obraxis, Wasabi and I. :-P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please take the time to look over my application thoroughly. I made quite a compelling case. Choosing me is probably the best thing you guys could ever do. Kind of like if you ever take a hot bath with some chicks in Thailand. Must watch out for certain girls there though as they may actually be guys. Either way it can be a good time.
And if the above paragraph seemed odd, just try reading the first letter of each sentence.
<!--quoteo(post=2057190:date=Jan 6 2013, 08:21 PM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Jan 6 2013, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just make an UWE server a official test server. Then make some sort of beta version/ MOD that allows anyone to test the game or variant of the game for you. Maybe even create an in game tool that allows reporting for the simpleton. Possible make a quick demonstration video on bug/ tweak reporting. A lot of games have beta test realms/ game version for a reason. It allows many different perspectives and eye's on the changes that the game might possibly implement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such a thing does actually exist. If you go into the properties tab for natural selection 2 on steam and click betas, there is an option for it. Not sure if it's testing or the other but I'm pretty sure it's testing.
That's not how Charlie balances his games, as this was possible in NS1 as well, but was not done. At least not to any large standard degree.
Going to be a lot of reading for Obraxis, Wasabi and I. :-P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mine is the easy one to spot, it's the funny one with jokes.
i want this as a poster for my wall!
i guess you could sell those :P
So, after all the semantics, is there ever going to be a team to test balance and gameplay or are we doomed to have glorified QA testers poking their noses in every once in a while?
Wait what? Theres a Brian on the dev team? No wonder someone thought I was an NS2 dev the other day.
Been playing games as "Brian" for ages...
Even released a few ns2 maps under that name...
And now everyone thinks I am someone else. :D
We already have a competetive map testing team who give feedback for balance on maps, who also give other feedback, just like the PT Team.
Also "Poking their noses in" suggests you think that NS2 is personally yours to decide on it's balance future and that the Playtest Group should have no input. I'd like to think that we have teams of people from both the Public side & members who play regularly in the ENSL league competitively for a good balance of thoughts and skills. In a game played by so many different people with different skill levels all over the world, I think it's a good idea to make sure we're not just looking at a single point of view.
Been playing games as "Brian" for ages...
Even released a few ns2 maps under that name...
And now everyone thinks I am someone else. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->There are actually two devs with that name: Brian "Murphy" Cronin (#1) and Brian "Chops" Cummings (#2). The blog post is referring to #1, who joins us for almost every PT session.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->If you read the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/12/ns2_balance_and_feedback_process" target="_blank">previous blog post</a> explaining the balancing process, you'll see that there is in fact now a balance "strike team" consisting of top competitive players. They are responsible for what goes into the official upcoming balance mod.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Also "Poking their noses in" suggests you think that NS2 is personally yours to decide on it's balance future and that the Playtest Group should have no input. I'd like to think that we have teams of people from both the Public side & members who play regularly in the ENSL league competitively for a good balance of thoughts and skills. In a game played by so many different people with different skill levels all over the world, I think it's a good idea to make sure we're not just looking at a single point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By "poking noses in", I mean to say that there's a non-formalized, but nevertheless present, discussion that occurs with people who are recruited for QA-testing purposes. I have a great deal of respect for you Obraxis - you know that - but your reply reinforces my confusions/suspicions.
Is the competitive map-testing team providing guidance on other things like gameplay/balance then? I know many who share my greivances still and, while I was a part of that team, when we highlighted that the culprit for much of "map gameplay" was less the fault of the maps and more the consequence of other factors, we were curtly told to remain focused on the maps only (understandable in the context of map testers, but not as providers of other feedback).
Are you selecting playtesters for QA purposes or are you choosing candidates that are qualified for balance/gameplay feedback also? On the one hand, it appears that the notion that playtesters comment on balance can't be distanced from enough and we are reminded that they are bugtesters first and foremost. Then we hear that they have the ear of UWE in a casual way. Then you write that you're gathering people from both public and competitive which implies that the composition is constructed to give broad and balanced ideas and feedback on the game (not just QA and maps). If that's the case, I fall back on my concerns that the team is pretty poorly equipped to that.
Either way, I've always maintained (you will already know this from our discussions, of course) that NS2 needs a dedicated team for this job which actually has some oomph, rather than the hodge-podge of sources that are cherry-picked at developers' leisure. At some point, we can't rely on dedicated individuals like yourself to compose vast justifications with good reason and strong data to champion (insert: ram down throats!) good suggestions of valid criticisms as these can always be played down as the idea of one because there are plenty of ill-conceived and ill-thought out ideas to fall back on for support.
I say this not as a criticism of the currents testers <i>per se</i>. Rather, I believe the way in which the team has been composed has compounded the issue of unfortunate game direction which, I think, has suffered from the lack of concentrated and reputable game feedback from people who know NS2 well <i>as a player</i>. It is a poor substitute for the depth of feedback that such teams provide for most other games worth mentioning.
Just read it, sounds like a step in the right direction. Forgive me for reserving my judgement though as it's a little late in the day and I've seen the way these things pan out before.
To clarify, 99% of Map Testing feedback that gets submitted is about maps. We make no suggestions toward gameplay balance that is not already in the general dialogue of the competitive community here on the forums (even then it is mostly just chatter in our teamspeak - in which a Dev is not present).
SSSF: Super Secret Strike Force
<a href="http://www.ensl.org/" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/</a> there's already a competitive side that's alive and well with quite a few teams. Sometimes scheduling is pretty difficult though.
I'm the Galactic Space President of the Universe and I still applied.
Indeed. We rarely talk about actual game balance.
I know you're trying really hard not to but that's how it comes across. I don't know where this idea that the testers should be responsible for balance and gameplay came from. While there are people, including myself, who have very strong opinions on these issues and are just as frustrated as you are, we are and have always been a QA team.
Throughout development we've worked hard to make sure that there aren't any game breaking bugs in the game before a build goes out to the public. Then the community as a whole is used to gather data about balance and the current state of the game, all part of the open development process.
Now, obviously since the game went "live" things have had to change so as to not completely upset the balance from build to build (which wasn't as important before while in beta). Perhaps the devs were a bit slow to implement these changes, but it definitely looks like things are moving in the right direction.
1) The playtesters are near the top of the chain for gameplay and balance feedback and therefore need to be competent in that role.
or
2) The playtesters barely provide gameplay and balance feedback and a proper team should be created for that role.
<i>(no smart arses who say it's in the middle, please)</i>
My stance is probably confusing because of the plurality of responses and eerie vibes I get. I drum on about it alot because, when I was a playtester, I saw some seriously stupid things bandied about in campfire <i><b>all the time</b></i> - ts3/ventrilo was even worse.
1) The playtesters are near the top of the chain for gameplay and balance feedback and therefore need to be competent in that role.
or
2) The playtesters barely provide gameplay and balance feedback and a proper team should be created for that role.
<i>(no smart arses who say it's in the middle, please)</i>
My stance is probably confusing because of the plurality of responses and eerie vibes I get. I drum on about it alot because, when I was a playtester, I saw some seriously stupid things bandied about in campfire <i><b>all the time</b></i> - ts3/ventrilo was even worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't top of the chain for gameplay and balance feedback really, I think the comp matches are actually the biggest influence for that. At least that is according to the flowchart Flayra posted not long ago. It seems like the playtesters do what they're supposed to for the most part which is report bugs and junk.
Pretty much all you do.
Edit: bah just a few minutes late :(
The REAL test is when they meet Toothy.