Commanding experience
Hokes
Join Date: 2011-05-04 Member: 97097Members
Join Date: 2011-05-04 Member: 97097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A rant/help seeking topic</div>Hi all, having been a avid RTS player for the past few years with many different games, I thought I would enjoy commanding and doing the whole tech climbing and support roles of the commander. While it proved to be just as I expected, I came across a troubling aspect.
Being relatively new (having not touched it since it was sold only on the UWE website), I found that other players tend to have their own perceived build order that either commanders (Karm included) must go. Like a shift hive followed by a cara hive or rushing either weapons 1/armor 1 after the initial 2 drop RTs. Having an RTS background, I like to test different build orders to see what works and what doesn't. Having browsed through the forums and picking up useful commander tips (thanks for the trouble spotting topics), I have a relative understand of what works and what doesn't. So I tend to experiment with builds and try out potential new strategies and it often produces varying results due to different player and their skill levels, so multiple trials must be run.
I understand that not all of these strategies will pay off, and I've been tying to develop different build orders depending on my perceived skill of the players in my team. However, the feedback/insults hurled at experimenting with build orders is quite out of proportions. this usually stems from veterans with much more experience in the tech ladder/proper build orders and I understand that. But for new strategies to develop, commanders like me have to test them in a real game. There are no AI's to help simulate an actual game, neither do I have a group/clan that is large enough to run these trials with.
For a start I would like to apologize for testing out different build orders, but would really like some understanding from players. I feel this 'trial and error' method is the only way for commanders to develop and learn. While tutorials cover the basics, they do not cover the advance stuff like when to drop med/ammo packs.
So having gotten that off my chest, does anyone have any guide/hints/tips to share (through experience) on the more advance tactics/build order that needs more finesse to pull off?
Cheers
Being relatively new (having not touched it since it was sold only on the UWE website), I found that other players tend to have their own perceived build order that either commanders (Karm included) must go. Like a shift hive followed by a cara hive or rushing either weapons 1/armor 1 after the initial 2 drop RTs. Having an RTS background, I like to test different build orders to see what works and what doesn't. Having browsed through the forums and picking up useful commander tips (thanks for the trouble spotting topics), I have a relative understand of what works and what doesn't. So I tend to experiment with builds and try out potential new strategies and it often produces varying results due to different player and their skill levels, so multiple trials must be run.
I understand that not all of these strategies will pay off, and I've been tying to develop different build orders depending on my perceived skill of the players in my team. However, the feedback/insults hurled at experimenting with build orders is quite out of proportions. this usually stems from veterans with much more experience in the tech ladder/proper build orders and I understand that. But for new strategies to develop, commanders like me have to test them in a real game. There are no AI's to help simulate an actual game, neither do I have a group/clan that is large enough to run these trials with.
For a start I would like to apologize for testing out different build orders, but would really like some understanding from players. I feel this 'trial and error' method is the only way for commanders to develop and learn. While tutorials cover the basics, they do not cover the advance stuff like when to drop med/ammo packs.
So having gotten that off my chest, does anyone have any guide/hints/tips to share (through experience) on the more advance tactics/build order that needs more finesse to pull off?
Cheers
Comments
If it's a 24 player server, you may need a 2nd IP quick or a shift. If you get a shift, try to place it somewhere that 'covers' the outlying extractors you have, as res will be doubly important due to the cost of eggs.
if u want a RTS game, do ns1, if there is still a server, or even, play some proper rts game like SC2 or something else.
What I'm asking is for players to try to be more understanding. Like I said, in pubs , it is near impossible to control the game low, however I can do my best to influence it with relevant upgrades such as mines when there are 3/8 greens on my team. Yet it does not sit well with the 'vets'.
What I'm asking is for players to try to be more understanding. Like I said, in pubs , it is near impossible to control the game low, however I can do my best to influence it with relevant upgrades such as mines when there are 3/8 greens on my team. Yet it does not sit well with the 'vets'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What "veterans"? Mines are almost borderline OP and anyone raising hell about them being researched early game is a complete moron and not a voice of experience you should be listening to. They're better used on base IPs and phase gates to prevent rushes, than RTs, but they're still a critical research.
You're not playing with vets.
The issue of testing strats, as you know, with random people will have various results; dependent on skill.
I had a game where me and a marine comm traded seats every few games. His build revolved around mostly fast flame throwers and called shotguns entirely useless. Where my builds usually go for a fast phase into quick armor/weapon ups. The major reason our diverse strtas worked, is because the alines simply could not hold down our nodes and eventually was out skilled.
So from MY experienced, if you have a very skilled team vs a very unskilled team. Skill will win, with or without a commander (Games can be won with fast rushes, as poeple are most popular with)
But every commander has his build, and strategy. It makes them unique. If you have people ######ing about what you are doing or teching towards, they simply are not worth your trouble to argue with.
Also to Lofung:
Shade first for aliens is generally a VERY finniky opener. You players really need to know how to properly use camo otherwise they will go stealth the entire time thinking they are GOSUNANJASKULK. Which hurts your team in terms of reaction.
Pub players vary way too much in skill to give reliable results from testing stuff like that.
Not to mention that silly builds that rely on the enemy being dumbfounded because of slow reactions work too often.
Either that or you test your patience with people and keep trying with results that rely way more on what players you end up with than what strats you're pulling :P.
It's just a bummer if you down the road try out 6v6 clangames and find a big chunk of your playstyle not working anymore.
If you're playing in an 16+ player server it's almost necessary to go shift hive and put a shift somewhere more central in the map to spawn eggs, even in the best games you can get egg locked after a rush or if 1-2 marines slip into main and take out 4+ eggs. Also some spawns on some maps like cave hive in mineshaft are just horrible to traverse 15+ seconds of map on every death and it makes going to hive to heal up almost a non option since marines can easily build power/res and get comfortable in 20 seconds.
Crag hive for cara shouldn't be looked down upon by anyone with a clue, but beware of map size and spawn again, crag hive in cargo on veil is easy, crag hive in pipe and you're trying to stop them from taking nano and sub at the same time you will get abuse by baddies.
Shade is a coin flip, I feel most people are too stupid to take advantage of silence so that only leaves camo, camo is as effective as marines and their comm are stupid and whether your players are good or not, it tends to slow the game right down and will amplify which team is good/bad. It also feels very useless to have camo/silence when trying to bust a second/third base, you either want more Hp/ability to harrass nodes with regen or want to get into their base faster or have gorges be 100% more effective with double the energy to throw bile bomb on everything, camo is useless near obs and silence doesn't feel like an active upgrade once you're in a base.
Camo rushing was also a horribly cheesey build that was popular about a month ago when 2 hive regen onos was patched out of the game so it stirs up a lot of bad pub memories for some, it also forces a lot of better/vet players to leave servers as camo completely negates positioning/aiming as marine and skulk and it's frustrating playing with an inexperienced marine comm vs camo.
I think the 2 most effective marine strats in pub is armoury RT RT obs phase tech and armoury RT RT obs phase tech. Even the greenest of names are capable of holding one room so you might as well make it a tech point, from there you can usually hold the RT between the 2 phases and use the phase to pressure or hold the next 2 RT outside of your 'chain'. Rushing mines is great, mines in the hands of a green name do just as much damage as mines used by a 1k+ hours played veteran, welders are a must but can be delayed until needed, shotguns are a mid game transition that you normally get just as lerks come or in bad games after fades are out.
I personally recommend getting armour before weapons every single time, W1 in the hands of an idiot will do no more dmg than W0 but at least A1+ could keep him alive long enough to accidentally kill something or someone can back them up, I feel that rushing weapons upgrades is the biggest noob trap in NS2 outside of sentries and never endingly expanding into areas you won't hold. Note I'm only advocating armour weapon armour weapon armour weapon, not armour armour armour and no weapons, you probably will have 1-2 people on your team who will benefit greatly from 1-2 less bullets per skulk but they'll also benefit from 1-3 more bites as well, the bad players will get no benefit from weapons upgrades most of the time.
Preferably build your phases against or a wall or right out in the open so people coming into the area can take out skulks from afar, position your armouries either slightly ahead of phases so marines going through a pg being attacked will potentially be healed or block off one side of a power node with it, hives like atrium/sub are horrible to do that but others like sub/pipe (veil) using the armoury to allow skulks to only attack the power from one side can benefit your marines a lot.
Try to place your obs aggressively (think of how much vision they can give through walls in relation to hive/likely alien attack) and keep an eye out for them, you may want to bind them with control + 1 2 3 4 etc and press S instantly to beacon (note you can only beacon areas with a CC/obs built in the room), don't be afraid of nano shielding power/phase/obs that are being attacked with E D shortcut once you have 2 CC, it greatly reduces the dmg they take and will often be the difference between a successful pg/power rush by aliens or not. If your phase is being attacked and you're asking marines to phase through an area please drop 2-3 med packs in the side the marines will come out of the PG, nothing worse then following comms orders to phase to an area and being instantly killed by 2 skulks biting the phase.
If you're running an arc train, be aware double clicking an arc will select every arc on the map, you can then press control + 1/2/3/4/5 etc and have 3+ arcs doing the same thing by just pressing 1/2/3/4 etc. The same is also true for macs but be aware, it will select all the macs map wide, generally come late game exo/arc push will win 90% of games if you can hold 3 tech points, you normally want 1-2 macs in each tech point with sentries up to deter ramboing skulks from taking out obs/power/sentry by themself.
It's pointless researching exos without at least 2-3 macs in a control group to follow them around, ideally if you are a RTS player it won't be hard to damn near max out the MAC limit come end game and have a MAC train follow the exo train, not putting macs on the exos will 100% see unnecessary dual exo death in pubs, you simply can't rely on marines to make the whopping 5 res commitment to buying a welder and staying with the exos. Exos also benefit from only armour upgrades, weapon upgrades are useless on exos so if your team is kinda bad and have ######d res all game (ignored mines/welders, shotguns and have horrible KD) ignore jetpacks, they will be to bad to use them properly just rush exos and don't let anyone buy single exos, there's nothing wrong with singles but 9/10 people are too stupid to hold the punch button down and if they are hovering 70 res it's just a waste.
There's also a great bug out right now that lets you drop onos egg on 1-2 hives with Tres around 3-6 min mark, I'll update when I know exactly how it's done as this will probably win a lot of games in pub, Xao's no fun allowed pub stomp guide tbc.
What I'm asking is for players to try to be more understanding. Like I said, in pubs , it is near impossible to control the game low, however I can do my best to influence it with relevant upgrades such as mines when there are 3/8 greens on my team. Yet it does not sit well with the 'vets'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No specific tips that you haven't already read. I like comm/khamms looking for new strats. If we win, it was new and fun. If we lose, least we didn't flat-out lose with a proven strategy.
One bit of advice- Give your team the opportunity to have a cookie-cutter comm/khamm. Saying, "Trying something new. We might lose. If you want a different comm, go for it." would make it easy for your teammates to eat a loss. Usually, no one else wants to comm/khamm, so whatever you do isn't all on you.
You can also play dumb and mute offensive players; least till they get people to eject you. I abused mute as a fresh comm. If players get too demanding or offensive, mute and continue. Keeping supporting them, but at the pace you decide.
Lofung is pretty spot on, when it comes to pubs. If your team can kill, build, and hold, you can win with turrets, zero upgrades, and one CC. If they can't, you'll experience a feeling of helplessness, that can't be fixed with any strategy. This will likely mess with your results.
I agree with Omar and GORGEous. Anyone arguing over early mines can hardly call themselves a vet.
So I'm taking a break from that kind of thing.
Omg comm didn't go shade shade is OP we lose
Omg cara i hate cara ALWAYS go shift comm</b>
Your friendly public service announcement:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GG-BUILD. With the exception of 10 armories or 10 whips in your base. Treating any build that MIGHT make you perform suboptimally as "GG we lose" is plain wrong, and plain dumb.
So stop doing it.
That is all.
Your friendly experimenting commander.
P.S. I still highly encourage talking about builds, but going the absolute ralph pootawn "no" route is never the way to go.
That fat guy trying to cure gorilla-elefants could be considered a veterinarian.
What was his name again? George? :)
Btw <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Mestaritonttu <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->is right. Try to experiment a bit, but be rational in your choices.
Experimenting with VIABLE builds and having some positive feedback/support/comments about the strategy would help build the commander community and the overall competitiveness of the whole game.
Hence this 'rant', I feel the community should support such experimentation? While it might not work in pubs, I feel it would eventually find its way around the community.
But yea, perhaps a discussion about viable tactics commanders can take/use should be in order.
Shade first for aliens is generally a VERY finniky opener. You players really need to know how to properly use camo otherwise they will go stealth the entire time thinking they are GOSUNANJASKULK. Which hurts your team in terms of reaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i do not care if shade is finniky fussy or chessy. but if you care to win (i do not nowadays), you better give what the majority of your team wants or risk ejected or a complete morale breakdown because 'we have a dumb ###### comm gg close game'. your game breaks down before they actually have a chance to see if they are lucky enough to 'not fail'. if its a stupid opener, at worst you can still give it to them and team hop if it is allowed and then pwn them hard on another team. after all, pubs is about fun the most. if they do not win in a way they think its satisfying or simply not having fun, people leave, rage quit, mad, f4 and break your game. in case you still care to win.
Celerity means skulks get to where they need to go faster. Adrenaline means your gorges can build up defenses quickly (without having to pause for energy) and give nearby skulks a healing station. Putting shifts down to spawn eggs in a location closer to the action or near a new expansion is like having a phase gate there.
That's usually why you should go shift hive first. Also egg lock is almost always a concern. If your skulks are dying fast while the game is still young, even on an 8v8 server, either you spawn eggs or half your team sits around like it's autobalanced.
For the same reason, I don't think there's any viable marine strategy besides teching phase gates and then jetpacks as fast as possible, while constantly pushing your team to take more territory and dropping them armories and observatories as they do so.
Everything else is just an attempt to compensate for weak players, which is ... frustrating, to say the least.
I can understand the desire to experiment with different build orders, but you should wait until after you've done that tech in the beginning (celerity + forward shift, phase gates + forward bases).
It's like any RTS .. do whatever you want for tier2+, but if you don't drop a barracks in the first few minutes you're boned.
edit: forgot to mention mines and welders are super cheap and mines become ineffective around 8 minutes in but kick ass before that, so researching those two in the first five minutes can really help your team without slowing down your tech.