<!--quoteo(post=2059795:date=Jan 12 2013, 03:11 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 12 2013, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That actually sounds like a <i>good</i> game. It's only those final 15 minutes (however long you held them at 1 tech point) that were the excessive part. Simply "containing them" most of the game but letting them get Exos isn't really grounds for the game ending there there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? A contained aliens team isn't grounds for an end of game? The excessive point was that it took 80 minuets to end the game by starving the marines to death followed by an extra 20 to actually end it. Their entire strategy was turtle to reserve resources then pump out the big tech after 30 mins.
They had an excellent commander, but the game was over. I suppose you had to be there.
<!--quoteo(post=2060242:date=Jan 13 2013, 07:26 PM:name=Froibo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Froibo @ Jan 13 2013, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? A contained aliens team isn't grounds for an end of game? The excessive point was that it took 80 minuets to end the game by starving the marines to death followed by an extra 20 to actually end it. Their entire strategy was turtle to reserve resources then pump out the big tech after 30 mins.
They had an excellent commander, but the game was over. I suppose you had to be there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
During the part of your story where the enemy held two tech points, they weren't contained. And if the enemy briefly loses two tech points but pushes back out within 1-3 respawn waves afterwards, they weren't contained.
So again, by the sound of it the overwhelming majority of the game you described was actually quite close. Only the very tail end is actually worth criticizing because it sounds like for actually the majority of the match the enemy <i>wasn't </i>contained, and therefore clearly didn't deserve to die quickly.
15 minute holdouts on one tech point is excessive. It's a reasonable argument to ask for excessive one-tech holdouts to be fixed. That argument is cheapened when you become melodramatic and insist that it's not just the final 15 minutes but the entire latter half of the game that the aliens deserve to win -- despite marines clearly sitting on two tech points -- just because you had one bad experience. You don't deserve to win automatically and you can't claim to have contained the marine team unless you've actually contained the marine team!
So focus on the real problem (marine 1-tech power vs. alien 1-tech, compared with the endgame siege capabilities of both) and propose solutions, rather than trying to pretend the problem is larger than it is. Solutions like tweaks to IPs (like limits to how many can exist in a single tech room) or improvements to aliens' siege capabilities (a higher-priced Gorge Deluxe option with better siege, or make the Whip upgrade not be useless) or map design tweaks which reduce holdout potential (the closer the power node is to a doorway, the weaker that tech point is going to be when gorges set up there.)
I have yet to experience these kinds of games. Normally I just call out two people to go gorge to hit the power and have the rest of the team run in from the other side to kill marines. Let the units who were clearly made for the job do it, not the ones who were made to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=2059619:date=Jan 12 2013, 06:45 AM:name=Froibo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Froibo @ Jan 12 2013, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just got done with a rather dreadful 100 minute game as Aliens.
Had them contained most of the game but they were still able to beacon constantly and even pump out some EXOs. They eventually were able to get enough momentum to contest one of our hives and even bring it down twice; it was a back and forth battle for it.
Finally, we were able to get some well placed attacks on their bases and destroy the EXOs, but it still took another 15 minuets to end it after that. I think I will be taking a break from the game for a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that was dreadful? Sounds like fun to me. How boring would it be to capture 3 tech points and that's it, game over. There's a bit of a thrill when the other team has opportunities for a come back.
Had an hour long game last night on docking. In the end we'd seen pretty much everything. Sneaky PGs, arc trains, exo pushes, JP+flamethrowers against the whole scale of alien lifeforms. Lot's of back and forth going on until the aliens stepped up their game and clinched it in the end with some well coordinated rushes. Games like these are great fun. It's only boring when marines start to build robotic factories and armories to block the entrances of their final base while crunching out the welders and macs, delaying the inevitable.
<!--quoteo(post=2059608:date=Jan 12 2013, 06:08 AM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Jan 12 2013, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ive found that this problem is easily solved by speaking on the microphone and directing your team mates!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone, read and re-read what Hunter just said.
No, REALLY re-read it.
(Of course, you should have been on the mic during the rest of the game, too!)
Aliens can't turtle for the life of them so i'm ingratiatingly assuming you mean marine turtle. Because then yes, it is ridiculous, There are two factors involved:
1. Weapons that 'drop' can always be picked back up. 2. Upgrades can not 'just' be targeted down because they're pushed up deep in the base ontop of the fact that aliens are (mostly) all melee, and to get to the upgrade center would mean your assured death, with a little 4 to 5 hits you can get off.
First of all i'll remark about the second point, alien's in general really don't have any other targets to attack other than power nodes, since they're always in the same place, and always easily accessible for bilebomb / onos rushes. (a very flawed however very necessary point of attack.)
And then the first point, weapons should really have some sort of diminishing return on the 'disappear' timer; The first time it drops it should have 100% of 20 seconds, After it drops again 66%, 33%, and eventually just 0% to prevent weapons staying in the game too long, Dying, spawning and picking your weapon back up again is probably the main reason marine turtles are so effective.
I also strongly believe it's a matter of cooperative pushing the aliens need to do in order to win, A single onos can't just keep going in and out of their base all the time, Trading off this process is bad, when really just two oni can finish the game if they commit to it, the risk of dying is worth more than the chance of ######ing out and not accomplishing anything and then still dying.
I believe in order to achieve this in a more 'automated' fashion for public play, onos needs to be more a walking siege unit, slower, but beefier, and less of a marine killer.
I came up with a couple of idea's to solve this. Maybe they are all not the best, maybe they should be combined. You guys can vote and relpy on all of them on google moderator.
Spawn time could be connected to either power health or the command station health (or maybe even both).
Base turteling time would decreased because 1 onos hitting the power would decrease spawn rates. A good team can attack all at once with say 2 onos, but even those can fail. They would however criple the marine team more then the current system and therefor decrease turtletime.
<b>Posssible solution 2 (http://goo.gl/mod/5M22):</b> Maximum of X (maybe 9) buildings can be powered by a power node. This could prevent the commander from building 4 Robotics Factories in front of the power node in order to block onos from reaching them. I've seen this happen more then once in late games. Decreasing the number even further then my suggested 9 could also decrease turteling because buildings would have to be more widespread. For example with max buildings of 7 (i'm not counting command station and extractor here): -IP -Armory -Arms lab -Observatory -Phase Gate -Prototype Lab -Robotics Factory
In this situation you can only have 1 IP, you could however tradeof the robotics factory (and place it elsewhere) and then create 2 IP's.
<b>Posssible solution 3 (http://goo.gl/mod/TfhC):</b> Connect powernode health to a powernode-output. If powernode health drops below (for example) 70% secondairy IP's start shutting down systematically (primary IP stays up untill complete power outage ofcourse).
I found that comebacks are generally only feasible when players suck, or when the terrible players on your team quits en-masse, leaving the good players to take the win (since the other team won't get respawns).
<!--quoteo(post=2060444:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:41 AM:name=Mindstorm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mindstorm @ Jan 14 2013, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I came up with a couple of idea's to solve this. Maybe they are all not the best, maybe they should be combined. You guys can vote and relpy on all of them on google moderator.
Spawn time could be connected to either power health or the command station health (or maybe even both).
Base turteling time would decreased because 1 onos hitting the power would decrease spawn rates. A good team can attack all at once with say 2 onos, but even those can fail. They would however criple the marine team more then the current system and therefor decrease turtletime.
<b>Posssible solution 2 (http://goo.gl/mod/5M22):</b> Maximum of X (maybe 9) buildings can be powered by a power node. This could prevent the commander from building 4 Robotics Factories in front of the power node in order to block onos from reaching them. I've seen this happen more then once in late games. Decreasing the number even further then my suggested 9 could also decrease turteling because buildings would have to be more widespread. For example with max buildings of 7 (i'm not counting command station and extractor here): -IP -Armory -Arms lab -Observatory -Phase Gate -Prototype Lab -Robotics Factory
In this situation you can only have 1 IP, you could however tradeof the robotics factory (and place it elsewhere) and then create 2 IP's.
<b>Posssible solution 3 (http://goo.gl/mod/TfhC):</b> Connect powernode health to a powernode-output. If powernode health drops below (for example) 70% secondairy IP's start shutting down systematically (primary IP stays up untill complete power outage ofcourse).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These suggestions feel very weak at addressing the true causes of marine holdouts.
Whereas <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=127054&view=findpost&p=2060398" target="_blank">Salt's post</a> cuts right at the heart of one of the biggest reasons for marine holdouts: weapon drops. While it might not be the funnest possible solution, tweaking weapon drop timers based on how many times a marine has died with the weapon would be a massive hit to marine holdouts.
Really it boils down to respawn fixes (like a 2-IP-Per-Tech Limit), damage fixes (weapon drop tweak, or Higher Upgrades Require Multiple Command Stations), or improving alien siege capabilities (make the Whip upgrade actually useful, or allow players to upgrade their gorge with an additional resource fee, or tweak power node locations to never be more than x meters from a bilebombable exit.) And only <i>one </i>of these solutions should be explored at a time -- and <i>after</i> the overall marine vs. aliens pub balance is addressed.
While I think the above solutions are the way to go, part of me wonders if these 2-exit marine starts couldn't be a bit more balanced by having a second vulnerability on the other side of the room (a Respawn Anchor structure needed to achieve full respawn rate, for example). That way alien sieges would be more effective because two sides of the battle would be important instead of just the side with the power node.
I also wonder if we couldn't have a more reasonable Risk vs. Reward setup for marine structures. Currently the highest reward structure (power node) is placed the least risky place to attack (near doorway). What if the power node (highest reward) is moved to a spot which <i>couldn't </i>be bilebombed from a doorway (highest risk) but <i><b>every other structure </b></i>(lower rewards) had to be constructed in a bile-bombable location (lowest risk)? It turns the "always kill the power" non-decision into potentially a very interesting decision.
There are other potentially clever solutions too. What if Fade Vortex against a Command Station shuts down all connected Infantry Portals? Suddenly fades become just as useful as Onos/Gorge/Lerk in alien sieges. (Which isn't to say they aren't useful now, but they're certainly less useful.)
<!--quoteo(post=2060493:date=Jan 14 2013, 07:34 PM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Jan 14 2013, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At least someone read it, everyone else seems to be coming up to solutions for a non existant problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ofcourse directing your teammates to the all-so familiar 2 onos power hit attack is the way to go. However many many times people do not seam to get this. I did not state that my ideas where the solution, they might be possible solutions of which some might even add some more depth to this game.
The reason as to people complaying about this is proabably because it's a real life situation which happens, often. Wether you want to call this a problem or not. Late-game turtle happends, and it only happends to marines. It happens a-lot (if you ask me). It however does not happen to aliens, meaning that there is something different.
The weapon-drop is most likely big part of it, as is the fact that upgrades are not bound to multiple command stations. The fact alone that marines have the ability to do so and aliens do not makes it an imbalance because marines do not have a counter to this.
Again, voice chat solves this problem but playing as marine I cannot remember the late-game time that I had to use voicechat in order to win when we had 2 exo's on the field and aliens only had 1 hive left. This makes it an imbalance, game delying annoyance which I would describe as a problem.
actually, i would in most situations like this recomend gettin everyone to attack the comm chair, not the power node. I recomend you try it out, once marines are "tech locked" i.e. have one command chair, killing the command chair will win it.
Not only that, but its a lot easier to hit, a lot easier to dodge around, and you only have to kill it once, and then you win. Attacking the power node is harder to hit, impossible to use as cover, and after you kill it you then have to kill all the marines, and if a marine is hiding, the command chair as well.
Kill the comm chair, not the power node.
e2a: upgrades are tied to command chairs, for this very reason (preventing end game turtling). Jetpacks and exo suits are denied to marine teams with one tech point, making onoses with stomp incrediby op.
It's because lategame is just poorly balanced. level 2 and 3 upgrades should be tied to command centers and not be handed freely.
The only comebacks have seen are always the same : marines turtling on 2 bases with 3 Rts then release an arc train and turn the map upside down. I just saw that once again on mineshaft ( well we can blame the poor map design also for this one ).
Whenever I'm on an alien team and we have the whole map except the 5th tech point I'm always worried about some silly things like that.
All of these "solutions" are a backwards. The marines turtle in base because there is no chance of a comeback. They can't escape because they have no JP's, so they have to camp, and they might aswell spend their remaining res on decent weapons. There needs to be more comeback options.
At best you can get a ninja phase gate somewhere and kill a hive only to be mauled 5 seconds later and the hive rebuilt without any real impact. Allowing JP's if they managed to research them before their 2nd TP went down might be interesting, but might also increase turtling. Or maybe a new minigun weapon for normal marines will help.
One problem with lack of comebacks is NS2's game design from top to bottom. In old NS1, an Onos was tied to 3 hives, so killing a hive actually meant something and could snatch victory from defeat.
But, generally, to finish matches, Aliens just need a decent com who actually uses Enzyme/etc.
Comebacks are great but I've never seen marines come back from a 1base turtle. That is, one base and at most one out-base RT with the aliens controlling the rest of the map (4hives). The only way I see comming back from that is either the aliens quitting or some hackers/pro players joining the marine team, and even that seems unlikely to work.
Aliens on the other hand CAN win even at the last moment if they manage to snipe the marines command chairs while the marines are busy on their last hive. Aliens can't really turtle though.
Id like to see a 4hive tech to end the game, like maybe something to instantly turn all alien players into onos. Were talking a completed 4th hive held long enough to do some extra expensive research, so there shouldn't be any reasonable way for marines to come back at that point.
The turtling is just bearable but what makes it worse is this teambalance some guys on the losing side go f4 and surrender then i cant spawn because the teams are unbalanced
since im rather new in this game im not sure if this exist:
It would be nice if a commander could decide to surrender and then all players on that team would get a vote: surrender yes/no
that way not only a couple guys go f4 and the game drags on regardless but if the vote reaches 51 % the game just ends instantly
maybe this is already possible i dont know but to me this seems a more elegant solution than altering any gameplay features and at the same time solving this teambalance issue
If you think this problem is non existent, you definitely don't play in any of the larger pubs. Trying to break 12 marines who have decided they are going to camp it out is not a simple issue. You need a few smart onos, a few competent gorges and maybe a lerk. The problem can be MUCH worse if the marines have got one or two serious camping EXOs, GLers.
One of the problems is that fades are atrocious at attacking entrenched marines and often your good players are fades.
Another problem is the marine weapon recycling keeps all the GLs Flamethrowers and stuff alive infinitely.
A third problem (which I see ALL THE TIME) is that your first few onos are often players who are not so good, and they die easily. This causes everyone to have to wait until you can get a few more onos either through Tres (commanders dont like dropping onos eggs though because its 0 fun for them) or through Pres which sometimes can take a really long time because fades just can't do ###### against turtles. Often people will go onos one at a time and run in which just exacerbates the problemn.
So essentially you often have to wait until some of your competent players have enough Pres to go Onos, you typically need at least 2 to crack a 12v12, and then you also need a few competent gorges.
Sure you can try to babysit your retarded team on the mic all game so they don't lose their onos and some of them gorge, but I just don't give enough ######s to do that constantly every game.
The absolute worst though is the games where you can see the writing on the wall but you know your teams just good enough to live until exos/onos - those games make me want to kill myself
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure you can try to babysit your retarded team on the mic all game so they don't lose their onos and some of them gorge, but I just don't give enough ######s to do that constantly every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well... if you arent willing to fix the problem, you can hardly complain when the problem continues.
If you are having trouble gettin people to go gorge with their p res, spawn eggs from a shift and uprade them to gorgs with tres.
If you are having trouble affording pres onos, buy tres onos.
Even grossly incompetent players can hit the command chair, its a pretty big target.
And i play a LOT bro, on a variety of server sizes
Comments
Really? A contained aliens team isn't grounds for an end of game? The excessive point was that it took 80 minuets to end the game by starving the marines to death followed by an extra 20 to actually end it. Their entire strategy was turtle to reserve resources then pump out the big tech after 30 mins.
They had an excellent commander, but the game was over. I suppose you had to be there.
They had an excellent commander, but the game was over. I suppose you had to be there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
During the part of your story where the enemy held two tech points, they weren't contained. And if the enemy briefly loses two tech points but pushes back out within 1-3 respawn waves afterwards, they weren't contained.
So again, by the sound of it the overwhelming majority of the game you described was actually quite close. Only the very tail end is actually worth criticizing because it sounds like for actually the majority of the match the enemy <i>wasn't </i>contained, and therefore clearly didn't deserve to die quickly.
15 minute holdouts on one tech point is excessive. It's a reasonable argument to ask for excessive one-tech holdouts to be fixed. That argument is cheapened when you become melodramatic and insist that it's not just the final 15 minutes but the entire latter half of the game that the aliens deserve to win -- despite marines clearly sitting on two tech points -- just because you had one bad experience. You don't deserve to win automatically and you can't claim to have contained the marine team unless you've actually contained the marine team!
So focus on the real problem (marine 1-tech power vs. alien 1-tech, compared with the endgame siege capabilities of both) and propose solutions, rather than trying to pretend the problem is larger than it is. Solutions like tweaks to IPs (like limits to how many can exist in a single tech room) or improvements to aliens' siege capabilities (a higher-priced Gorge Deluxe option with better siege, or make the Whip upgrade not be useless) or map design tweaks which reduce holdout potential (the closer the power node is to a doorway, the weaker that tech point is going to be when gorges set up there.)
Pro commanders up in this thread.
Had them contained most of the game but they were still able to beacon constantly and even pump out some EXOs. They eventually were able to get enough momentum to contest one of our hives and even bring it down twice; it was a back and forth battle for it.
Finally, we were able to get some well placed attacks on their bases and destroy the EXOs, but it still took another 15 minuets to end it after that. I think I will be taking a break from the game for a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that was dreadful? Sounds like fun to me. How boring would it be to capture 3 tech points and that's it, game over. There's a bit of a thrill when the other team has opportunities for a come back.
Everyone, read and re-read what Hunter just said.
No, REALLY re-read it.
(Of course, you should have been on the mic during the rest of the game, too!)
Because then yes, it is ridiculous, There are two factors involved:
1. Weapons that 'drop' can always be picked back up.
2. Upgrades can not 'just' be targeted down because they're pushed up deep in the base ontop of the fact that aliens are (mostly) all melee, and to get to the upgrade center would mean your assured death, with a little 4 to 5 hits you can get off.
First of all i'll remark about the second point, alien's in general really don't have any other targets to attack other than power nodes, since they're always in the same place, and always easily accessible for bilebomb / onos rushes. (a very flawed however very necessary point of attack.)
And then the first point, weapons should really have some sort of diminishing return on the 'disappear' timer;
The first time it drops it should have 100% of 20 seconds,
After it drops again 66%, 33%, and eventually just 0% to prevent weapons staying in the game too long, Dying, spawning and picking your weapon back up again is probably the main reason marine turtles are so effective.
I also strongly believe it's a matter of cooperative pushing the aliens need to do in order to win, A single onos can't just keep going in and out of their base all the time, Trading off this process is bad, when really just two oni can finish the game if they commit to it, the risk of dying is worth more than the chance of ######ing out and not accomplishing anything and then still dying.
I believe in order to achieve this in a more 'automated' fashion for public play, onos needs to be more a walking siege unit, slower, but beefier, and less of a marine killer.
<b>Possible solution 1 (http://goo.gl/mod/geaX):</b>
Spawn time could be connected to either power health or the command station health (or maybe even both).
Base turteling time would decreased because 1 onos hitting the power would decrease spawn rates.
A good team can attack all at once with say 2 onos, but even those can fail. They would however criple the marine team more then the current system and therefor decrease turtletime.
<b>Posssible solution 2 (http://goo.gl/mod/5M22):</b>
Maximum of X (maybe 9) buildings can be powered by a power node. This could prevent the commander from building 4 Robotics Factories in front of the power node in order to block onos from reaching them. I've seen this happen more then once in late games.
Decreasing the number even further then my suggested 9 could also decrease turteling because buildings would have to be more widespread. For example with max buildings of 7 (i'm not counting command station and extractor here):
-IP
-Armory
-Arms lab
-Observatory
-Phase Gate
-Prototype Lab
-Robotics Factory
In this situation you can only have 1 IP, you could however tradeof the robotics factory (and place it elsewhere) and then create 2 IP's.
<b>Posssible solution 3 (http://goo.gl/mod/TfhC):</b>
Connect powernode health to a powernode-output. If powernode health drops below (for example) 70% secondairy IP's start shutting down systematically (primary IP stays up untill complete power outage ofcourse).
<b>Possible solution 1 (http://goo.gl/mod/geaX):</b>
Spawn time could be connected to either power health or the command station health (or maybe even both).
Base turteling time would decreased because 1 onos hitting the power would decrease spawn rates.
A good team can attack all at once with say 2 onos, but even those can fail. They would however criple the marine team more then the current system and therefor decrease turtletime.
<b>Posssible solution 2 (http://goo.gl/mod/5M22):</b>
Maximum of X (maybe 9) buildings can be powered by a power node. This could prevent the commander from building 4 Robotics Factories in front of the power node in order to block onos from reaching them. I've seen this happen more then once in late games.
Decreasing the number even further then my suggested 9 could also decrease turteling because buildings would have to be more widespread. For example with max buildings of 7 (i'm not counting command station and extractor here):
-IP
-Armory
-Arms lab
-Observatory
-Phase Gate
-Prototype Lab
-Robotics Factory
In this situation you can only have 1 IP, you could however tradeof the robotics factory (and place it elsewhere) and then create 2 IP's.
<b>Posssible solution 3 (http://goo.gl/mod/TfhC):</b>
Connect powernode health to a powernode-output. If powernode health drops below (for example) 70% secondairy IP's start shutting down systematically (primary IP stays up untill complete power outage ofcourse).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These suggestions feel very weak at addressing the true causes of marine holdouts.
Whereas <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=127054&view=findpost&p=2060398" target="_blank">Salt's post</a> cuts right at the heart of one of the biggest reasons for marine holdouts: weapon drops. While it might not be the funnest possible solution, tweaking weapon drop timers based on how many times a marine has died with the weapon would be a massive hit to marine holdouts.
Really it boils down to respawn fixes (like a 2-IP-Per-Tech Limit), damage fixes (weapon drop tweak, or Higher Upgrades Require Multiple Command Stations), or improving alien siege capabilities (make the Whip upgrade actually useful, or allow players to upgrade their gorge with an additional resource fee, or tweak power node locations to never be more than x meters from a bilebombable exit.) And only <i>one </i>of these solutions should be explored at a time -- and <i>after</i> the overall marine vs. aliens pub balance is addressed.
While I think the above solutions are the way to go, part of me wonders if these 2-exit marine starts couldn't be a bit more balanced by having a second vulnerability on the other side of the room (a Respawn Anchor structure needed to achieve full respawn rate, for example). That way alien sieges would be more effective because two sides of the battle would be important instead of just the side with the power node.
I also wonder if we couldn't have a more reasonable Risk vs. Reward setup for marine structures. Currently the highest reward structure (power node) is placed the least risky place to attack (near doorway). What if the power node (highest reward) is moved to a spot which <i>couldn't </i>be bilebombed from a doorway (highest risk) but <i><b>every other structure </b></i>(lower rewards) had to be constructed in a bile-bombable location (lowest risk)? It turns the "always kill the power" non-decision into potentially a very interesting decision.
There are other potentially clever solutions too. What if Fade Vortex against a Command Station shuts down all connected Infantry Portals? Suddenly fades become just as useful as Onos/Gorge/Lerk in alien sieges. (Which isn't to say they aren't useful now, but they're certainly less useful.)
No, REALLY re-read it.
(Of course, you should have been on the mic during the rest of the game, too!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least someone read it, everyone else seems to be coming up to solutions for a non existant problem.
Ofcourse directing your teammates to the all-so familiar 2 onos power hit attack is the way to go. However many many times people do not seam to get this. I did not state that my ideas where the solution, they might be possible solutions of which some might even add some more depth to this game.
The reason as to people complaying about this is proabably because it's a real life situation which happens, often. Wether you want to call this a problem or not. Late-game turtle happends, and it only happends to marines. It happens a-lot (if you ask me). It however does not happen to aliens, meaning that there is something different.
The weapon-drop is most likely big part of it, as is the fact that upgrades are not bound to multiple command stations. The fact alone that marines have the ability to do so and aliens do not makes it an imbalance because marines do not have a counter to this.
Again, voice chat solves this problem but playing as marine I cannot remember the late-game time that I had to use voicechat in order to win when we had 2 exo's on the field and aliens only had 1 hive left. This makes it an imbalance, game delying annoyance which I would describe as a problem.
Not only that, but its a lot easier to hit, a lot easier to dodge around, and you only have to kill it once, and then you win. Attacking the power node is harder to hit, impossible to use as cover, and after you kill it you then have to kill all the marines, and if a marine is hiding, the command chair as well.
Kill the comm chair, not the power node.
e2a: upgrades are tied to command chairs, for this very reason (preventing end game turtling). Jetpacks and exo suits are denied to marine teams with one tech point, making onoses with stomp incrediby op.
level 2 and 3 upgrades should be tied to command centers and not be handed freely.
The only comebacks have seen are always the same : marines turtling on 2 bases with 3 Rts then release an arc train and turn the map upside down.
I just saw that once again on mineshaft ( well we can blame the poor map design also for this one ).
Whenever I'm on an alien team and we have the whole map except the 5th tech point I'm always worried about some silly things like that.
At best you can get a ninja phase gate somewhere and kill a hive only to be mauled 5 seconds later and the hive rebuilt without any real impact. Allowing JP's if they managed to research them before their 2nd TP went down might be interesting, but might also increase turtling. Or maybe a new minigun weapon for normal marines will help.
One problem with lack of comebacks is NS2's game design from top to bottom. In old NS1, an Onos was tied to 3 hives, so killing a hive actually meant something and could snatch victory from defeat.
But, generally, to finish matches, Aliens just need a decent com who actually uses Enzyme/etc.
Aliens on the other hand CAN win even at the last moment if they manage to snipe the marines command chairs while the marines are busy on their last hive. Aliens can't really turtle though.
Id like to see a 4hive tech to end the game, like maybe something to instantly turn all alien players into onos. Were talking a completed 4th hive held long enough to do some extra expensive research, so there shouldn't be any reasonable way for marines to come back at that point.
The turtling is just bearable but what makes it worse is this teambalance
some guys on the losing side go f4 and surrender then i cant spawn because the teams are unbalanced
since im rather new in this game im not sure if this exist:
It would be nice if a commander could decide to surrender and then all players on that team would get a vote: surrender yes/no
that way not only a couple guys go f4 and the game drags on regardless but if the vote reaches 51 % the game just ends instantly
maybe this is already possible i dont know but to me this seems a more elegant solution than altering any gameplay features and at the same time solving this teambalance issue
One of the problems is that fades are atrocious at attacking entrenched marines and often your good players are fades.
Another problem is the marine weapon recycling keeps all the GLs Flamethrowers and stuff alive infinitely.
A third problem (which I see ALL THE TIME) is that your first few onos are often players who are not so good, and they die easily. This causes everyone to have to wait until you can get a few more onos either through Tres (commanders dont like dropping onos eggs though because its 0 fun for them) or through Pres which sometimes can take a really long time because fades just can't do ###### against turtles. Often people will go onos one at a time and run in which just exacerbates the problemn.
So essentially you often have to wait until some of your competent players have enough Pres to go Onos, you typically need at least 2 to crack a 12v12, and then you also need a few competent gorges.
Sure you can try to babysit your retarded team on the mic all game so they don't lose their onos and some of them gorge, but I just don't give enough ######s to do that constantly every game.
The absolute worst though is the games where you can see the writing on the wall but you know your teams just good enough to live until exos/onos - those games make me want to kill myself
well... if you arent willing to fix the problem, you can hardly complain when the problem continues.
If you are having trouble gettin people to go gorge with their p res, spawn eggs from a shift and uprade them to gorgs with tres.
If you are having trouble affording pres onos, buy tres onos.
Even grossly incompetent players can hit the command chair, its a pretty big target.
And i play a LOT bro, on a variety of server sizes