It's ranting time! - The bad side of being a Comm
Ghozer
Join Date: 2003-05-22 Member: 16617Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-05-22 Member: 16617Members, Constellation
Ok, I apologize in advance for the rant, the long post and generally whatever I need to apologize for.... what that said.....
Recently, i'm getting really sick of the "I know everything" attitude of lots of players, as an example, no one wants to comm, so you jump in the chair...
You say something like "ok guys, 2 go X, 2 go Y, and 2 stay in base, stick in groups of 2 minimum, any over that is better, when you spawn, check the map and reinforce where is weak"
the players don't follow, they run off individually.... Then, when you start not being able to hold a location, they rage at you (as the Comm) for not having upgrades @ 4 minutes into the game, or start saying you're a bad Commander etc...
The key point here is, because they didn't stick together in teams, They were unable to hold a location and it's Extractor, meaning you (as Comm) don't have the resources to get them the upgrades they are whining about!
Then when you bite your lip, take a deep breath, and try and pull the game back, you change up the strategy, and say "ok, everyone push X location" - they whinge and argue against your decision, and start throwing ideas of their own around, all at once so no one can hear anyone (yet alone the Comm's requests)
so, you struggle along with 2 maybe 3 Extractors (2 of which keep getting taken down, so by the time they are re-built, then taken down again, you have only actually gained like 1 maybe 2 resources in about a minute) you gradually get upgrades (if the aliens haven't rushed the base by this point) and you start trying a push again...
Then, once again, everyone argues against it, doesn't listen to your request, doesn't do what you asked and thinks "ohh, I have a shotgun, lvl 2 armour and weapons, i'm invincible", so they run off on their own, only to die vs a fade and a couple of skulks, then they (once again) rage at you for not giving them med packs!
Could anyone please correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't the role of the Commander, to take charge of the game, and make the decisions of where the players go, what rooms to take and hold, where to defend and push etc??
So, why do players always insist on arguing against the commander, if they want to do it their way, they should command!!!
I'm honestly getting really tired of pubs where you either have..
A) a new comm, who doesn't ask questions, doesn't listen to advise from experienced players, and often doesn't even have a mic...
or
B) new (or rambo ninja) players, who argue against your requests, and go off doing their own thing, which can often cost you're team the game!
Recently, i'm getting really sick of the "I know everything" attitude of lots of players, as an example, no one wants to comm, so you jump in the chair...
You say something like "ok guys, 2 go X, 2 go Y, and 2 stay in base, stick in groups of 2 minimum, any over that is better, when you spawn, check the map and reinforce where is weak"
the players don't follow, they run off individually.... Then, when you start not being able to hold a location, they rage at you (as the Comm) for not having upgrades @ 4 minutes into the game, or start saying you're a bad Commander etc...
The key point here is, because they didn't stick together in teams, They were unable to hold a location and it's Extractor, meaning you (as Comm) don't have the resources to get them the upgrades they are whining about!
Then when you bite your lip, take a deep breath, and try and pull the game back, you change up the strategy, and say "ok, everyone push X location" - they whinge and argue against your decision, and start throwing ideas of their own around, all at once so no one can hear anyone (yet alone the Comm's requests)
so, you struggle along with 2 maybe 3 Extractors (2 of which keep getting taken down, so by the time they are re-built, then taken down again, you have only actually gained like 1 maybe 2 resources in about a minute) you gradually get upgrades (if the aliens haven't rushed the base by this point) and you start trying a push again...
Then, once again, everyone argues against it, doesn't listen to your request, doesn't do what you asked and thinks "ohh, I have a shotgun, lvl 2 armour and weapons, i'm invincible", so they run off on their own, only to die vs a fade and a couple of skulks, then they (once again) rage at you for not giving them med packs!
Could anyone please correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't the role of the Commander, to take charge of the game, and make the decisions of where the players go, what rooms to take and hold, where to defend and push etc??
So, why do players always insist on arguing against the commander, if they want to do it their way, they should command!!!
I'm honestly getting really tired of pubs where you either have..
A) a new comm, who doesn't ask questions, doesn't listen to advise from experienced players, and often doesn't even have a mic...
or
B) new (or rambo ninja) players, who argue against your requests, and go off doing their own thing, which can often cost you're team the game!
Comments
So hey, I guess I can command, right? Even though I'm universally terrible at all RTS's across the board. Starcraft, SOSE, Dawn of War, you name it.
I end up doing fine until more players join, and then all of a sudden the joining players are like OMG 200 TRES AND NO UPGRADES EJECT COMM NOW! Well, that breaks my feelings, especially when this happens on a rookie friendly server...
So yeah I suck RTS, and it's worse when your units actively tell you how much you suck.
So hey, I guess I can command, right? Even though I'm universally terrible at all RTS's across the board. Starcraft, SOSE, Dawn of War, you name it.
I end up doing fine until more players join, and then all of a sudden the joining players are like OMG 200 TRES AND NO UPGRADES EJECT COMM NOW! Well, that breaks my feelings, especially when this happens on a rookie friendly server...
So yeah I suck RTS, and it's worse when your units actively tell you how much you suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"This was a 1vs1, we were waiting for more players you ****** son of a ********* with ********** huge up your ************** Nicholas Cage and *************"
-that works most of the time.
You should also consider spamming medpacks into the alien hive and then telling that you've no res. :3
Recently, i'm getting really sick of the "I know everything" attitude of lots of players, as an example, no one wants to comm, so you jump in the chair...
B) new (or rambo ninja) players, who argue against your requests, and go off doing their own thing, which can often cost you're team the game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason i'm letting somebody jump into the CC is that i seem to be a super human, because i'm capable of killing early game Skulks with an LMG.
But when i Command that gift goes to waste, as i'm forced to watch how 4 Marines get killed by a single Skulk.. even with Scan and Med support, in the middle of base.
So i rather stick to the Marine play and kill stuff, while hoping that the Comm has at least half a clue as to what's happening on the Map (The majority of Comm's lack situational awareness as they are too focused on what they want to do and not what their team can actually manage to do).
Just because you sit in the CC and want a certain place on the map, doesn't mean it's just gonna happen. You have to work with the people on the team and grab opportunities as they pop up, you can't force those opportunities. Especially the "rambo ninja" ones that usually "rambo ninja" to do actual damage to the enemy or get you an nice ninja PG. Ignoring those players will only lead to even worse teamplay. If the only guy with an positive K:D on your team manages to get to Cargo and wants a PG there you damn well better drop one instead of focusing your attention on the 3 Marines at West Skylights, those 3 guys gonna die anyway (for the 5 th time in a row) at overlook :P
No offense, but too many Commanders end up on a powertrip inside their CC and that's even more harmful than backseat Commanders or experienced players doing their own thing without draining resources for Meds (Good rambos never expect med support, they know they are disposable). But it's exactly these kind of issues why i would really love something like a "Sargent" position or second Commander for Marines.
Tried that also, things like "if you guys want upgrades, we need this... so go get it" etc, but they seem to be even less responsive to this than when acting nicely towards them!!
and <b>rebirth</b> I can generally tell within the first 2 mins who the decent players are, and weather or not they know what they are doing...
I don't mind those players who actually do know what they are doing, and can actually play, going off doing their own thing, and i'll support them if/when needed (meds, nano shield, ninja PG etc) but it's the people who think they can do that stuff and actually can't that i'm talking about!
Well those people who can do it, they too had to start somewhere ;)
But yeah i get what you are talking about, in my experience these kinds of people often end up being new players. People that ask for Jetpacks 3 minutes into the round or demand turrets/PG's at every resource tower and if that stuff ain't happening they gonna start complaining/eject voting.
But that has and will always be a problem due to the nature of NS.
Imho one thing that could lessen this issue: If the the game would have some kind of progression/achievement system for individual players, maybe even factor a "Comm rating" into that (Comm can promote/demote players based on performance, promotions come with little perks).
Make Marines more individual overall so people get a better sense of scale who/what/where they actually are. But suggesting things like that usually ends with people ranting how "this is not CoD!! (even if CoD is referenced in the higher design goals) or how it would "Ruin teamplay!" (That barely exists anyway at this point).
Having a "Prestige 20 with fifty platinum stars in Commanding"Commander maybe convinces more people to actually listen to the Comm in dire situations, after all "That guy knows what he's talking about!". Not that it's gonna happen anyway, but one could still dream xD
In games like NS2 (or per example, League of Legends, World of warcraft raiding etc.) that's not possible, especially for the commander. People really rely on eachother. Joining random servers means you get to play with random people. You can only hope to get proper teammates, but all bets are off.
My advice is always the same: be the player you want to play with and hope you influence others to show their best side.
If you feel the public play is too chaotic/unpleasant, try joining PuGs. since those are already a fair bit more organised, the chances of getting 'ramboes' are much slimmer.
^^ This!!
Haha... I quote that movie loads!! :D
Promise them a pet gorge. Chances are, it'll usually come true.
I find that communicating to the team helps a lot, they know that the comm is on top of things and the experienced players have an idea of what's coming down the pipeline for them (ie. shotties). That communication also helps them understand why I'm telling them to hold, say, Deposit and Repair on Mineshaft ("hold those positions until PGs are up"). I even tell them stuff like "I'm throwing a scan ahead of you guys into Central, one second....there are a couple skulks on the top level near the power node".
I suggest calling people out by name instead of saying 'you three random guys over on the left side of the map, hold X position', it tickles their ego and makes them think that they'll finally get their pet gorge I have been promising the entire game.
* they don't listen & don't eject.
- You arent gona build & upgrade, so might aswell hang over them and comment on there every mistake. They will eventually default to either of the following choices.
* they listen & learn
- success
* they are stupid & don't want to learn and eject
- you got a experienced marine on the field, and are better of then whatever a new commander can make it of, including horrid turret soam.
When your comming in a pub, try not to be so uptight about carrying out your plan, and just support your troops, build stuff whereever they happen to go and let them know whats under attack. If they don't have any idea whats going on, no amount of ordering them around is going to matter becuase they probably don't even know the map.
Funny, I've had to refuse to build forward structures for badmmanders unless they drop me meds/ammo because the concept of a marine starting a build then dying from one bite resulting in lost team res is baffling. It works both ways.
Maybe you should stop biting your lip (sigh...) and show some ######ing leadership. get a core group, people who want to listen, and work with them while the rest dies. the rest will follow. its a herd mentality (church doctrine, everyones a sheep, sheep move in herds) if people dont listen and you die because of it, you need to grow some balls and show them who´s boss.
Every game I play I always yell at people who dont listen, even when im not a commander, why? because more comms are scared to speak out and make their position mean something. people who comm are normally scared of how players will react to their orders. you need to put your foot down, make them listen to you but without agression, it is simple, just need balls.
Rambo marines can be frustrating but if what they are doing is worthwhile (taking down rts or upgrades), I'll support them. If they are ramboing and not accomplishing anything I try to politely let them know or try to give them a specific target that will have them at least be useful as a distraction.
I don't mind backseat commanders, especially veterans, although with some noobs I have to explain that building turrets seriously delays their upgrades.
Maybe you should stop biting your lip (sigh...) and show some ######ing leadership. get a core group, people who want to listen, and work with them while the rest dies. the rest will follow. its a herd mentality (church doctrine, everyones a sheep, sheep move in herds) if people dont listen and you die because of it, you need to grow some balls and show them who´s boss.
Every game I play I always yell at people who dont listen, even when im not a commander, why? because more comms are scared to speak out and make their position mean something. people who comm are normally scared of how players will react to their orders. you need to put your foot down, make them listen to you but without agression, it is simple, just need balls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leadership isn't about being a drill sergeant. Those guys are trying to break down people so that they can stomp the bad/soft habits out of them.
Leadership is about knowing your stuff, and knowing how to communicate that knowledge to your subordinates. You lead by knowing where you want to go, and getting people to give you their best effort in reaching the goal.
It has nothing to do with "balls" or what ever testosterone driven metaphor you choose to employ. Women, very feminine ones, can be excellent leaders without being harsh/cruel/angry/stubborn. If you get a team of hamsters afraid to leave the base, you need to learn how to speak hamster or the game is lost. Yelling at a hamster isn't going to magically make it a lion...
Anyway, I find the best way to get people to follow your orders is present them with a plan, communicate with them often, use their names when speaking to them, and avoid "opt in" kinds of orders such as "I need someone to do x". You can start out with an Opt in order but you should already be scanning to find the right soldier for the job and calling them by name to do something that NEEDS doing.
Also, don't be that guy who ignores the com when you think you know better how to play the game. You don't have all the information that the com does, and you don't know what the com has in reserve for plan B or C if something doesn't work as intended. Yes, I'm guilty of ignoring orders too, we all do from time to time... but even when my good friend is giving general orders I will double check with him and ask if he really REALLY wants to pull me off the job I'm working on before I move... when he says yes, I go. The key here is we have our own dialog going and I can ask him directly... you cant do that with most commanders so please just give them the benefit of the doubt and follow orders like a good soldier. They might just know what they are doing afterall.
If not, at least you can use that lesson as a way to teach bad tactics to comms who are at least trying the hardest job in the game. Lord knows we need more comms out there.
Rambo marines can be frustrating but if what they are doing is worthwhile (taking down rts or upgrades), I'll support them. If they are ramboing and not accomplishing anything I try to politely let them know or try to give them a specific target that will have them at least be useful as a distraction.
I don't mind backseat commanders, especially veterans, although with some noobs I have to explain that building turrets seriously delays their upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This x 10.
This.
When someone doesn't follow my orders, i make it very clear they will not be receiving medpacks or ammo or any support from me.
You have to be assertive, and typically you can command a group just fine, it is typically just one or two rambos who dont listen. But if a group won't listen to you no matter what.. guess what you have leverage again with their upgrades!
When commanders and players can't coordinate things naturally, things usually boil down to negotiating and bargaining.
I can't stress communication enough though.. i hate as a player having to ask constantly "Are you going to research X?" so that i know what decisions i need to make, only to have the commander be a freakin mute. Communicate, Communicate, Communicate.
That is in fact kind of what I meant to say, I thought of balls cause I was a t work witha huge exchange problems and couldnt sit and think and elaborate more. replace balls with courage, hows that?
I try to fill that role of the guy telling people what to do based on the comms orders. the commander can send out an order but he cant be on top of the marines all the time, he hast o upgrade, build, assist, think, expand. I dont, I just need to point and click, half the time im playing, the map is up watching what people are doing, and telling people to reinforce spots and trying to carry the game towards where the commander wants. I dont do anything without the commander telling me and when he does I ask for assistance, if he says yes, I try to rally up a few marines and we take off and do what we need to do.
I totally missworded my last comment cause I was in a hurry, it was very poorly written. off I go again, DNS problems now, woohoo, the life of IT.
It is also worth noting I have not commanded 1 single game here. I used to command a lot when NSArmslab was around and sometimes in BAD server, but after that, I never commanded again, and NS2 command wise is not for me.
This is probably the biggest factor seperating noobs from experienced players. Marines who take it upon themselves to maintain situational awareness are a godsend. They can react before a situation becomes dire and help rally other marines to whatever needs attention. This is exactly what I want when commanding. It frees me up to work on other things.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont do anything without the commander telling me and when he does I ask for assistance, if he says yes, I try to rally up a few marines and we take off and do what we need to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's good to listen but having some self motivation is not a bad thing. I like it when veteran marines make suggestions. They're on the ground ( so to speak) and may have some insight or ideas that I can't get from the CC. I've won many games as marines when a veteran suggested a different tactic. Like, "let's rush so-and-so hive because it is poorly defended."
As someone else pointed out, above all else, communication is key.
There are others like me and it will be impossible to get us to listen. So pretty much just part of the experience I guess.
Edit: Also mute is a wonderfully underutilized function for commanders
There are others like me and it will be impossible to get us to listen. So pretty much just part of the experience I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why play in pubs at all then?
Players like yourself can be useful but set a really bad example for the noobs and cause them to suck for longer than they should. You can mitigate this by helping the com keep an eye on the map and herding the noobs where they need to go. Sniping cyst chains, rts and upgrades are worthwhile, but try to explain things to the noobs rather than running off silently and just doing your own thing the whole game.
Also, I have noticed that people with your style of play tend to be the biggest complainers and ragers. Hopefully you are not like that. I'd rather play with a team of noobs than with a bunch of guys who know everything and complain about their teammates. Of course this only applies to pubs, organized games are an entirely different matter.
While it's not the nicest thing, you can always point out that not having nice things is predominantly the team's fault if they refuse the stick together or cooperate.
It's deterministic. Hold nodes: get upgrades. Don't hold nodes and you'll barely have anything. The commander can't cheat resources :P
The commander shouldn't necessarily<i> "take charge of where players go"</i>, partly because (a) many commanders are worse than I at determining where I should go to deal the most damage (even though I'm not perfect about it either,) and also (b) the commander should be able to focus on strategy, upgrades, and stuff like medkits (which require a moderate chunk of focus) rather than being worried about doing the thinking for every single marine on the board.
A few commanders are exceptions to this, but not many. Not myself, and not 99% of the commanders I serve under. Only that narrow 1% are able to hold the entire game in their head and be consistently right about where every marine should be moving at any given time.
As someone else pointed out, above all else, communication is key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, that depends on the comm as well, if the comm hesitates to give orders, you can take it upon yourself and be proactive.
It all depends
I told my com's that I'm scouting, I'm not good for building unless I make a lot of forward progress. Downside? Com's won't respond to my requests for much of anything even though I'm getting all the sweet intel on the aliens and taking out chambers.
One game I ninja'd into cargo hive 3 times and begged for the power so I could get a PG there, on the last time in, com finally listened to me and we got the PG up EXACTLY at the same time our base got taken out. GG *sigh*
Yeah, listening to your experienced players will win you games as much as having a decent plan and getting people to follow them. Knowing when to stubbornly plow ahead and write off the lone wolfs and when to snap out of that tunnel vision and win the damn game when the opportunity presents itself is likewise a sign of a good commander.
PS: When someone on your team calls out the location of an alien tech structure like shells and spurs... PLEASE use your commander voice and waypoints to direct your team to that location sooner rather than later.
@Davil : I assume you do respond to calls for help or react to threats that are within your reach. I mean, I get the whole "I'm doing more for you like this than if I sit in Nanogrid and shoot vents all day" but at some point, I think the best thing to do is respect that the commander needs cooperation from the good players even more than from the rookies. More often than not, I try to lead by example and take pressure off my team by being forward and aggressive... but when the commander says he really, really needs someone to phase to X and build something, I will usually volunteer provided I see no one else moving that direction.
I myself also near force people to travel in groups, but I know the power of the solo guy rising a phasegate near a hive.
Comms must keep perspective.
Players like yourself can be useful but set a really bad example for the noobs and cause them to suck for longer than they should.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and he's a play tester too, you should see all the other bs posts he's made in my thread(s). UWE seriously needs a wakeup call.