@OP: Next 5 games as marine... throw away your LMG each time you spawn.
Not kidding... toss that ###### on the ground, spit on it, tea bag it... and run the ###### away from it.
Now... run to the farthest part of the map with your ax in your hand every time. No, really... do this.
Next, find some cyst chain near an alien RT, or where you expect them to expand... and ax that ######.
Finally, start using your pistol to kill the responding skulks.
When you figure out what I'm trying to teach you... you can start hive-hunting, looking for upgrades, and being a general nuisance... but until you have minimal success at pulling skulks away from the rookies bogging down your marine teams, you'll probably never know what it is to win as marines.
Every time I play marine, I have a choice... I can either com the game and wish for an RT assassinating Cyst murdering maniac with good aim, or I can be that insane scouting guy and lament having to talk some rookie com through the basic interface.
God help the aliens when I get just one decent dude on my team worth the 1 res to drop a damn medpack on :D
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2062724:date=Jan 18 2013, 06:56 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 18 2013, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@OP: Next 5 games as marine... throw away your LMG each time you spawn.
Not kidding... toss that ###### on the ground, spit on it, tea bag it... and run the ###### away from it.
Now... run to the farthest part of the map with your ax in your hand every time. No, really... do this.
Next, find some cyst chain near an alien RT, or where you expect them to expand... and ax that ######.
Finally, start using your pistol to kill the responding skulks.
When you figure out what I'm trying to teach you... you can start hive-hunting, looking for upgrades, and being a general nuisance... but until you have minimal success at pulling skulks away from the rookies bogging down your marine teams, you'll probably never know what it is to win as marines.
Every time I play marine, I have a choice... I can either com the game and wish for an RT assassinating Cyst murdering maniac with good aim, or I can be that insane scouting guy and lament having to talk some rookie com through the basic interface.
God help the aliens when I get just one decent dude on my team worth the 1 res to drop a damn medpack on :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy somewhat has a point. Its a gamble, but if the alien team reacts badly its gona hurt there startup a lot. Aliens need a good startup in most matches from what ive seen.
<!--quoteo(post=2062724:date=Jan 18 2013, 12:56 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 18 2013, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@OP: Next 5 games as marine... throw away your LMG each time you spawn.
Not kidding... toss that ###### on the ground, spit on it, tea bag it... and run the ###### away from it.
Now... run to the farthest part of the map with your ax in your hand every time. No, really... do this.
Next, find some cyst chain near an alien RT, or where you expect them to expand... and ax that ######.
Finally, start using your pistol to kill the responding skulks.
When you figure out what I'm trying to teach you... you can start hive-hunting, looking for upgrades, and being a general nuisance... but until you have minimal success at pulling skulks away from the rookies bogging down your marine teams, you'll probably never know what it is to win as marines.
Every time I play marine, I have a choice... I can either com the game and wish for an RT assassinating Cyst murdering maniac with good aim, or I can be that insane scouting guy and lament having to talk some rookie com through the basic interface.
God help the aliens when I get just one decent dude on my team worth the 1 res to drop a damn medpack on :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK... I see what you are saying and it has been on my mind too. This is directly in line with why UWE made cysts half the health and infestation dies immediately. If marines can attack the cyst chains faster and more often, it will hurt aliens, bad. I will say that almost every marine loss has been because we were beaten on RT. They got Onos first and we didn't have the RT to be at Jetpacks/Exxos and we lose. If marines could slow the RT down that would be huge.
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is too often hard to achieve.
<!--quoteo(post=2062748:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:29 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 18 2013, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK... I see what you are saying and it has been on my mind too. This is directly in line with why UWE made cysts half the health and infestation dies immediately. If marines can attack the cyst chains faster and more often, it will hurt aliens, bad. I will say that almost every marine loss has been because we were beaten on RT. They got Onos first and we didn't have the RT to be at Jetpacks/Exxos and we lose. If marines could slow the RT down that would be huge.
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is often too hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2062748:date=Jan 18 2013, 07:29 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 18 2013, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK... I see what you are saying and it has been on my mind too. This is directly in line with why UWE made cysts half the health and infestation dies immediately. If marines can attack the cyst chains faster and more often, it will hurt aliens, bad. I will say that almost every marine loss has been because we were beaten on RT. They got Onos first and we didn't have the RT to be at Jetpacks/Exxos and we lose. If marines could slow the RT down that would be huge.
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is too often hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cyst starting health has to do with SG's being used to prevent cyst creep/spam IMO. Marines can shoot down cysts faster, but ultimately you are wasting valuable time if you are letting the alien com distract you. When I com as aliens, if I've got 4+ RT's, I will often build cysts right into the marine base to scare the ###### out of them... suddenly I've got 2 or more marines just shooting cysts because of that fear factor that I <i>might </i>do something sneaky with them. While they are tied up, my skulks now have a nice numbers advantage on the map and it only costs me a few res usually.
The problem isn't that marines are spread too thin. On the contrary, marines often bunch up so badly and over commit to fruitless endeavors that you lose the game for want of a lone wolf with the ability to kill an RT by himself.
Com as an alien for a while, wait for that epic marine ninja to turn up in one of your games, and then realize how frikin hard it is to win as aliens when there's just one guy killing your spurs over and over again, finding your shifts and axing them out of existence, and stopping your expansions by cutting critical cysts and leaving the area before you can redirect any skulks to the problem.
Not kidding, the first command I give my team when I get in the chair is "Get out of MY base". I get lots of people waiting around to build an armory or other item, I just tell them to GTFO and do something useful. Once they see I'm not dropping anything, they get the hint. The guy who builds stuff in my base is the poor sucker that dies first and has to respawn next to a blueprint. Its literally the only way you can guarantee that your team goes out on the map early enough to secure 2 RT's at the start of a match in my experience.
I cant tell you how hard I face palm when I tell them to get out, and they all go dog-pile into the same area for fear of missing the chance to build an RT and not have to shoot something. Sheesh!
Unless you are assaulting a fortified alien area or a hive, you never need more than 2 marines in any one place IMO. There will be exceptions... like defending a base or responding to a build up of aliens someplace, but as a general rule, if you can see 2 marines near you, you need to volunteer to leave the area and be productive elsewhere.
<!--quoteo(post=2062515:date=Jan 18 2013, 09:52 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 18 2013, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->19 out of 23 is pretty much significant.
The confidence interval is 67%-98%.
Formula here: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_proportion_confidence_interval#Normal_approximation_interval" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_prop...mation_interval</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are assuming that the data is normally distributed. Why?
<!--quoteo(post=2062415:date=Jan 17 2013, 09:31 PM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Jan 17 2013, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->The fix we applied <i>may</i> also benefit marines firing at lerks in some situations. Don't worry, more improvements are on the way.
And the win rate was actually around 70% for aliens before. Again, it's only early and not a huge sample size, but it's an improvement. :P<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the fix "we" applied? you don't fix anything. your just a tester.
Troubleshooter has a lot of good points. (I've played with you several times and I love your style as a commander, btw). Marines lose games because they either stay in the base, don't kill RTs/cyst chains, keep dying, let the commander delay upgrades with useless sentry farms or aren't aggressive enough. I have won many times as a Marine by simply being a general nuisance and being everywhere thanks to Phase Gates. I also kill Alien RTs a lot and I take a certain sadistic pleasure in hunting Gorges down when I see one.
<!--quoteo(post=2062605:date=Jan 18 2013, 09:13 AM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Jan 18 2013, 09:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main thing here is that Marines are <i>much</i> harder to play both on player and commander level. Aliens usually just have to do their thing until a few people get 75 Pres. That's just how the asymmetrical design works, and basic human instinct tends to favor the less-organized alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hit the nail on the head. Not only are the Marines much more difficult to play overall, but they also seem to require more teamwork, too. The Aliens, on the other hand, can go out and do their own thing and still be successful. The Alien Commander isn't pressured even half as much as the Marine one, either, because he doesn't have to worry about constantly dropping health and ammo, performing scans to detect enemies (cloaked or not), and placing structures only where players can build them. The game is very much skewed in favor of the Aliens and I don't think that will ever change. That's not to say it isn't possible to play well and dominate as the Marines, but in my experience it's much more difficult than playing for the other side.
<!--quoteo(post=2062848:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:47 PM:name=Chubzdoomer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chubzdoomer @ Jan 18 2013, 11:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hit the nail on the head. Not only are the Marines much more difficult to play overall, but they also seem to require more teamwork, too. The Aliens, on the other hand, can go out and do their own thing and still be successful. The Alien Commander isn't pressured even half as much as the Marine one, either, because he doesn't have to worry about constantly dropping health and ammo, performing scans to detect enemies (cloaked or not), and placing structures only where players can build them. The game is very much skewed in favor of the Aliens and I don't think that will ever change. That's not to say it isn't possible to play well and dominate as the Marines, but in my experience it's much more difficult than playing for the other side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oddly enough, I think the inclusion of the alien commander actually decreased the amount of teamwork required by the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2062848:date=Jan 18 2013, 02:47 PM:name=Chubzdoomer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chubzdoomer @ Jan 18 2013, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hit the nail on the head. Not only are the Marines much more difficult to play overall, but they also seem to require more teamwork, too. The Aliens, on the other hand, can go out and do their own thing and still be successful. The Alien Commander isn't pressured even half as much as the Marine one, either, because he doesn't have to worry about constantly dropping health and ammo, performing scans to detect enemies (cloaked or not), and placing structures only where players can build them. The game is very much skewed in favor of the Aliens and I don't think that will ever change. That's not to say it isn't possible to play well and dominate as the Marines, but in my experience it's much more difficult than playing for the other side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely true. Alien commander is just.. too easy for everyone. I personally as a big rts fan, would like see some khammander works with constant pressure, like marines.
What I hate the most about playing Marines (and maybe is one of the causes of losing so much) is the whole running 90% of the time to save a RT (which usually gets destroyed anyway).
You just can't compete in speed with skulks, at least not before jetpacks, 1-2 good skulks harassing your back RTs can be a nightmare. And whenever a RT gets destroyed, it takes time to rebuild Power and RT, whereas aliens' building is just automatic.
Using PGs can help but when you have too many of them you just keep phasing and phasing, hoping to end at the destination you wanted... It seems a very clunky mechanic to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2062521:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:08 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Jan 18 2013, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering public servers, where most marine commanders will fill every room with sentries while the aliens get every RT on the map it is a miracle the alien winrate is not higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This x1000. By public I think he means "UWE Official," i.e. filled with completely random people who don't play regularly btw.
A good percentage of the alien wins I've seen are because of either bad commanding or no commander for 1-2 minutes at the beginning of the game.
In NS2, things escalate rather quickly, so 1-2 minutes of doing nothing at the beginning of the game (i.e. early game when the teams establish their "area of influence") usually costs you the entire game.
<!--quoteo(post=2062770:date=Jan 18 2013, 08:13 PM:name=nsguy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nsguy @ Jan 18 2013, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are assuming that the data is normally distributed. Why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do people not consider the fact that marines are so much harder to play a problem? There is overwhelming consensus that they are harder to play. Where I fail to see the logic is why that this is ok. L2P, is not a reason to think a 75% win ratio is ok. Nothing is. "Why" the ratio is 75% is a conversation toward fixing it. A great direction to go but so many people WILL NOT consider the current state of the game is a problem. And until more people do, don't except it to change.
BTW, personal ratio: Aliens 21 wins, marines 6. An 80% win ratio. Any gaming community should be livid about this.
I wish UWE would comment on this topic. Not a playtester, but UWE itself. I PROMISE TO SHUT UP if they can respond to this thread with a "we are going fix it, SOON" answer.
I'll even promise in-game to shut up! Now that will be a chalenge.
<!--quoteo(post=2062912:date=Jan 18 2013, 06:23 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 18 2013, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do people not consider the fact that marines are so much harder to play a problem? There is overwhelming consensus that they are harder to play. Where I fail to see the logic is why that this is ok. L2P, is not a reason to think a 75% win ratio is ok. Nothing is. "Why" the ratio is 75% is a conversation toward fixing it. A great direction to go but so many people WILL NOT consider the current state of the game is a problem. And until more people do, don't except it to change.
....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are naturally harder due to the teamwork required to be successful. And I think it is very much acknowledged marines are harder to play because of this. Combine that with a few known issues which kalli and gliss mentioned contribute to the w/l ratio at the moment. I don't think any one is overlooking the fact marines are harder to play...
<!--quoteo(post=2062912:date=Jan 18 2013, 08:23 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 18 2013, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BTW, personal ratio: Aliens 21 wins, marines 6. An 80% win ratio. Any gaming community should be livid about this.
I wish UWE would comment on this topic. Not a playtester, but UWE itself. I PROMISE TO SHUT UP if they can respond to this thread with a "we are going fix it, SOON" answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let me tell you what the developers *have* said about the win/loss imbalance in the past. There have been two statements about this. One was a statement acknowledging the imbalance when they tied Onos egg drops to 3 hives. Then with the last balance patch before Christmas they again acknowledged that aliens are "winning 60% of the time" and that they wanted to get that closer to 50/50. So yes, the developers know there is an imbalance. The problem is that they seem unwilling or unable to put a band-aid solution on until they get this fixed. I suspect there is disagreement among staff on the MANNER in which to address this. They know there is a balance issue, they just don't know how to fix it yet.
So until they do decide to release a balance patch that addresses this issue, we're stuck with it.
<!--quoteo(post=2062912:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:23 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do people not consider the fact that marines are so much harder to play a problem? There is overwhelming consensus that they are harder to play. Where I fail to see the logic is why that this is ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not. Most of the people are not arguing against that. Some are describing ways to win as marine even if it is harder. Others lament over statistics. And many try to analyze where this problem originates. And I think that the asymmetry in teamplay needed between com and players is an important point.
Now, instead of repeating your self over and over, come up with good ideas how to balance this. Less health for the skulk or onos won't fix it. It will only make said classes not fun to play. We need to make marine tactics more forgiving without making them overpowered in skilled hands.
Yeah, no one is going to say that playing marine is easy. But its also not as bad as it seems most of the time. The forum here seems to have come to the consensus that marine teams being more dependent on coordination and execution amplifies skill differentials in the teams. That doesn't mean that marines can't win, or even that it is necessarily rare... but new players who wind up on a marine team are a much larger drag on that team than when they turn up on the alien team.
<!--quoteo(post=2062748:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:29 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 18 2013, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK... I see what you are saying and it has been on my mind too. This is directly in line with why UWE made cysts half the health and infestation dies immediately. If marines can attack the cyst chains faster and more often, it will hurt aliens, bad. I will say that almost every marine loss has been because we were beaten on RT. They got Onos first and we didn't have the RT to be at Jetpacks/Exxos and we lose. If marines could slow the RT down that would be huge.
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is too often hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder if less alien players may actually help. Perhaps on that one balance mod I've been hearing about can try that out. I'm curious to see if one or two less alien players can even out the win rates.
As a bonus (if this method actually works), no fundamental changes to the gameplay itself will ne necessary.
<!--quoteo(post=2062947:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:31 AM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Jan 19 2013, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if less alien players may actually help. Perhaps on that one balance mod I've been hearing about can try that out. I'm curious to see if one or two less alien players can even out the win rates.
As a bonus (if this method actually works), no fundamental changes to the gameplay itself will ne necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, just bind the alien commander to the hive (no way to exit without being ejected) which takes a set of teeth off the field.
Being 2 down would be pretty excessive... but the number of times I've killed 2 or 3 guys hacking away at my home hive because I can instantly pop out and back in at will is a bit embarrassing. Marines have a sort of "here I come" sound and animation that gives aliens warning that the commander is pissed and is going to start shooting stuff while the aliens are in and out without any warning at all.
I think the basic marine vs skulk is fine imo though hit detection is a bit wonky. The problem really lies in maintaining RTs which marines struggle in early on. Other topics have covered it well. It is mostly the marines losing the resource war early on. They usually cannot react fast enough to the RT harassing even if they try harassing the enemy as aliens will always respond faster early on and they do not require the building of RTs so with their speed they can just keep on moving.
Though do not get me wrong marines can also harass alien RTs but aliens will always be more effective at it early on. Plus marines usually need to use their axe which makes them a bit easy to kill if you get the drop on them and a marine trying to hit and run is laughable.
Maybe marine RTs should be a bit harder to harass. Perhaps something commander related. Maybe a RT marine upgrade that places a shield on it for a few seconds to keep skulks off it for a set number of seconds that does not reactivate for a while if marines fail to response. And yes I am aware of nano shield but that requires 2 com stations.
Others suggested an electric shield that damages skulks biting it connected to the power node.
Still these ideas may be ridiculous to some but I just want a solution to ease tension off marine RT harassing but nothing too impossible that they cannot be destroyed.
<!--quoteo(post=2062956:date=Jan 18 2013, 04:44 PM:name=YMICrazy502)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YMICrazy502 @ Jan 18 2013, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the basic marine vs skulk is fine imo though hit detection is a bit wonky. The problem really lies in maintaining RTs which marines struggle in early on. Other topics have covered it well. It is mostly the marines losing the resource war early on. They usually cannot react fast enough to the RT harassing even if they try harassing the enemy as aliens will always respond faster early on and they do not require the building of RTs so with their speed they can just keep on moving.
Though do not get me wrong marines can also harass alien RTs but aliens will always be more effective at it early on. Plus marines usually need to use their axe which makes them a bit easy to kill if you get the drop on them and a marine trying to hit and run is laughable.
Maybe marine RTs should be a bit harder to harass. Perhaps something commander related. Maybe a RT marine upgrade that dispels a shield on it for a few seconds to keep skulks off it for a set number of seconds that does not reactivate for a while if marines fail to response. And yes I am aware of nano shield but that requires 2 com stations.
Others suggested an electric shield that damages skulks biting it connected to the power node.
Still these ideas may be ridiculous to some but I just want a solution to ease tension off marine RT harassing but nothing too impossible that they cannot be destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I recall a mod turned vanilla function that allowed marines to electrify RTs in NS1. It was 15 res (I think) to install it so it's as if it was 2 RTs. It did x damage per second but with enough patience, an alien could get it down. Perhaps something similar in here would work where it's tied to the power? So that way they'd have to take down the power and THEN kill the RT even do any damage. Won't deter 2+ skulks but lone skulks would have to think longer about hitting that RT or going for an easier target.
<!--quoteo(post=2062952:date=Jan 18 2013, 04:35 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 18 2013, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or, just bind the alien commander to the hive (no way to exit without being ejected) which takes a set of teeth off the field.
Being 2 down would be pretty excessive... but the number of times I've killed 2 or 3 guys hacking away at my home hive because I can instantly pop out and back in at will is a bit embarrassing. Marines have a sort of "here I come" sound and animation that gives aliens warning that the commander is pissed and is going to start shooting stuff while the aliens are in and out without any warning at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think getting in and out the hive at will provides a bit more tactial nuance and flexibility, so I'd say it should remain in the game.
You are right about the lack of feedback on hive exit, though. Some kind of animation and sound may actually save my life someday. Also, make enter/exit speed on par with marines, since it's a bit too instantaneous.
<!--quoteo(post=2062919:date=Jan 18 2013, 06:37 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me tell you what the developers *have* said about the win/loss imbalance in the past. There have been two statements about this. One was a statement acknowledging the imbalance when they tied Onos egg drops to 3 hives. Then with the last balance patch before Christmas they again acknowledged that aliens are "winning 60% of the time" and that they wanted to get that closer to 50/50. So yes, the developers know there is an imbalance. The problem is that they seem unwilling or unable to put a band-aid solution on until they get this fixed. I suspect there is disagreement among staff on the MANNER in which to address this. They know there is a balance issue, they just don't know how to fix it yet.
So until they do decide to release a balance patch that addresses this issue, we're stuck with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2062432:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:06 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 18 2013, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gonna be honest here and say the hitreg in this patch is pretty much the same as before. Skulks that just run around on the walls do seem a little easier to kill - but there are still major problems with the hit detection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still very very ping/tickrate dependant. If you go above 75 ping or the server tickrate drops down to 20-25 late game, your hit detection will be terrible. If I'm playing at 120+ ping a lifeform can jump into my face and take up the entire screen (where you wouldn't be able to miss even if you tried) and a perfect shotgun shot will still only do ~60dmg the majority of the time. And it's not really any better on the alien side either...
It's always going to feel bad playing in EU from NA, or wherever, but it just seems a lot more punishing in this game compared to others. If it were at least bearable to scrim with avg pings around 100-120 against <75 pings, the NA comp scene probably wouldn't be quite so dead
<!--quoteo(post=2062595:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:52 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 18 2013, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The phrase is from Mark Twain, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics". You are missing the point of the phrase with this response. <b>The phrase means that you cannot trust the statistics themselves</b>, as in the numbers are made up, or the criteria used is not what you think it is, etc... When aliens are winning 75%, there is nothing to misinterpret as long as you count every win. Unless you are lying about the counts (which I am not), the statistics are clear. The argument you make here is "WHY DO MARINES LOSE SO MUCH". I am sick of people bringing this up. I DONT CARE WHY THEY LOSE SO MUCH. I also don't care how it is fixed, as long as it is fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What it says is they are all the same (BLS I beleieve is like "play it again sam"...as slight misquote but the point is still made) and that statsistics are just the same as lies and straight out bull######ting. It in no way says once they get to a certain number they suddenly mean something...75% win rates is as useless a statistic as 5% win rate.
You say you dont care why marines lose....well what happens if the cause actually turns out to be people not knowing how to play? Selecting wrong upgrads, not getting other etc...you cant balance for stupidity. You cant make things idiot prrof as idiots are so ingenious. What I mean by that is try as you might...a bad player will find a way to lose a game they should have won (troll recycling is a great example).
I suggest you start caring about why they lose...as if you want the game balanced you have to understand what caused each result. If there is a clear and consistant game mechanic at fault then we have a way to bring balance. If there isn't then it comes down to skill/decision making of marines and their comm which causes them to lose.
Its not all about making the winning move...its about not making the losing one. An alien khamm who get teh 1st upgrade at the 10 min mark and chooses shade...will in most cases loses the game for his team. A marine comm who upgrades to exo's before any weapons or armour upgrades will also cause his team to lose most of the time.
Alien khamm can make fewer game losing mistakes than a marine comm, this is something which influences win loss ratios and is not something you can really balance...as your trying to balance someones thought process and decision making (possibly when drunk, on drugs, sleep deprived or just plain old bad thinking).
Comments
Not kidding... toss that ###### on the ground, spit on it, tea bag it... and run the ###### away from it.
Now... run to the farthest part of the map with your ax in your hand every time. No, really... do this.
Next, find some cyst chain near an alien RT, or where you expect them to expand... and ax that ######.
Finally, start using your pistol to kill the responding skulks.
When you figure out what I'm trying to teach you... you can start hive-hunting, looking for upgrades, and being a general nuisance... but until you have minimal success at pulling skulks away from the rookies bogging down your marine teams, you'll probably never know what it is to win as marines.
Every time I play marine, I have a choice... I can either com the game and wish for an RT assassinating Cyst murdering maniac with good aim, or I can be that insane scouting guy and lament having to talk some rookie com through the basic interface.
God help the aliens when I get just one decent dude on my team worth the 1 res to drop a damn medpack on :D
Not kidding... toss that ###### on the ground, spit on it, tea bag it... and run the ###### away from it.
Now... run to the farthest part of the map with your ax in your hand every time. No, really... do this.
Next, find some cyst chain near an alien RT, or where you expect them to expand... and ax that ######.
Finally, start using your pistol to kill the responding skulks.
When you figure out what I'm trying to teach you... you can start hive-hunting, looking for upgrades, and being a general nuisance... but until you have minimal success at pulling skulks away from the rookies bogging down your marine teams, you'll probably never know what it is to win as marines.
Every time I play marine, I have a choice... I can either com the game and wish for an RT assassinating Cyst murdering maniac with good aim, or I can be that insane scouting guy and lament having to talk some rookie com through the basic interface.
God help the aliens when I get just one decent dude on my team worth the 1 res to drop a damn medpack on :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy somewhat has a point. Its a gamble, but if the alien team reacts badly its gona hurt there startup a lot. Aliens need a good startup in most matches from what ive seen.
Not kidding... toss that ###### on the ground, spit on it, tea bag it... and run the ###### away from it.
Now... run to the farthest part of the map with your ax in your hand every time. No, really... do this.
Next, find some cyst chain near an alien RT, or where you expect them to expand... and ax that ######.
Finally, start using your pistol to kill the responding skulks.
When you figure out what I'm trying to teach you... you can start hive-hunting, looking for upgrades, and being a general nuisance... but until you have minimal success at pulling skulks away from the rookies bogging down your marine teams, you'll probably never know what it is to win as marines.
Every time I play marine, I have a choice... I can either com the game and wish for an RT assassinating Cyst murdering maniac with good aim, or I can be that insane scouting guy and lament having to talk some rookie com through the basic interface.
God help the aliens when I get just one decent dude on my team worth the 1 res to drop a damn medpack on :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK... I see what you are saying and it has been on my mind too. This is directly in line with why UWE made cysts half the health and infestation dies immediately. If marines can attack the cyst chains faster and more often, it will hurt aliens, bad. I will say that almost every marine loss has been because we were beaten on RT. They got Onos first and we didn't have the RT to be at Jetpacks/Exxos and we lose. If marines could slow the RT down that would be huge.
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is too often hard to achieve.
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is often too hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is too often hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cyst starting health has to do with SG's being used to prevent cyst creep/spam IMO. Marines can shoot down cysts faster, but ultimately you are wasting valuable time if you are letting the alien com distract you. When I com as aliens, if I've got 4+ RT's, I will often build cysts right into the marine base to scare the ###### out of them... suddenly I've got 2 or more marines just shooting cysts because of that fear factor that I <i>might </i>do something sneaky with them. While they are tied up, my skulks now have a nice numbers advantage on the map and it only costs me a few res usually.
The problem isn't that marines are spread too thin. On the contrary, marines often bunch up so badly and over commit to fruitless endeavors that you lose the game for want of a lone wolf with the ability to kill an RT by himself.
Com as an alien for a while, wait for that epic marine ninja to turn up in one of your games, and then realize how frikin hard it is to win as aliens when there's just one guy killing your spurs over and over again, finding your shifts and axing them out of existence, and stopping your expansions by cutting critical cysts and leaving the area before you can redirect any skulks to the problem.
Not kidding, the first command I give my team when I get in the chair is "Get out of MY base". I get lots of people waiting around to build an armory or other item, I just tell them to GTFO and do something useful. Once they see I'm not dropping anything, they get the hint. The guy who builds stuff in my base is the poor sucker that dies first and has to respawn next to a blueprint. Its literally the only way you can guarantee that your team goes out on the map early enough to secure 2 RT's at the start of a match in my experience.
I cant tell you how hard I face palm when I tell them to get out, and they all go dog-pile into the same area for fear of missing the chance to build an RT and not have to shoot something. Sheesh!
Unless you are assaulting a fortified alien area or a hive, you never need more than 2 marines in any one place IMO. There will be exceptions... like defending a base or responding to a build up of aliens someplace, but as a general rule, if you can see 2 marines near you, you need to volunteer to leave the area and be productive elsewhere.
The confidence interval is 67%-98%.
Formula here:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_proportion_confidence_interval#Normal_approximation_interval" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_prop...mation_interval</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are assuming that the data is normally distributed. Why?
And the win rate was actually around 70% for aliens before. Again, it's only early and not a huge sample size, but it's an improvement. :P<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the fix "we" applied?
you don't fix anything. your just a tester.
Marines lose games because they either stay in the base, don't kill RTs/cyst chains, keep dying, let the commander delay upgrades with useless sentry farms or aren't aggressive enough. I have won many times as a Marine by simply being a general nuisance and being everywhere thanks to Phase Gates. I also kill Alien RTs a lot and I take a certain sadistic pleasure in hunting Gorges down when I see one.
Hit the nail on the head. Not only are the Marines much more difficult to play overall, but they also seem to require more teamwork, too. The Aliens, on the other hand, can go out and do their own thing and still be successful. The Alien Commander isn't pressured even half as much as the Marine one, either, because he doesn't have to worry about constantly dropping health and ammo, performing scans to detect enemies (cloaked or not), and placing structures only where players can build them. The game is very much skewed in favor of the Aliens and I don't think that will ever change. That's not to say it isn't possible to play well and dominate as the Marines, but in my experience it's much more difficult than playing for the other side.
Oddly enough, I think the inclusion of the alien commander actually decreased the amount of teamwork required by the aliens.
Completely true. Alien commander is just.. too easy for everyone. I personally as a big rts fan, would like see some khammander works with constant pressure, like marines.
You just can't compete in speed with skulks, at least not before jetpacks, 1-2 good skulks harassing your back RTs can be a nightmare.
And whenever a RT gets destroyed, it takes time to rebuild Power and RT, whereas aliens' building is just automatic.
Using PGs can help but when you have too many of them you just keep phasing and phasing, hoping to end at the destination you wanted... It seems a very clunky mechanic to me.
This x1000. By public I think he means "UWE Official," i.e. filled with completely random people who don't play regularly btw.
A good percentage of the alien wins I've seen are because of either bad commanding or no commander for 1-2 minutes at the beginning of the game.
In NS2, things escalate rather quickly, so 1-2 minutes of doing nothing at the beginning of the game (i.e. early game when the teams establish their "area of influence") usually costs you the entire game.
<a href="http://people.stern.nyu.edu/jsimonof/classes/1305/pdf/contcorr.pdf" target="_blank">http://people.stern.nyu.edu/jsimonof/class...df/contcorr.pdf</a>
- jetpack rush
- 1-2 marines on cyst clearing duty
BTW, personal ratio:
Aliens 21 wins, marines 6. An 80% win ratio. Any gaming community should be livid about this.
I wish UWE would comment on this topic. Not a playtester, but UWE itself. I PROMISE TO SHUT UP if they can respond to this thread with a "we are going fix it, SOON" answer.
I'll even promise in-game to shut up! Now that will be a chalenge.
....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are naturally harder due to the teamwork required to be successful. And I think it is very much acknowledged marines are harder to play because of this. Combine that with a few known issues which kalli and gliss mentioned contribute to the w/l ratio at the moment. I don't think any one is overlooking the fact marines are harder to play...
Aliens 21 wins, marines 6. An 80% win ratio. Any gaming community should be livid about this.
I wish UWE would comment on this topic. Not a playtester, but UWE itself. I PROMISE TO SHUT UP if they can respond to this thread with a "we are going fix it, SOON" answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let me tell you what the developers *have* said about the win/loss imbalance in the past. There have been two statements about this. One was a statement acknowledging the imbalance when they tied Onos egg drops to 3 hives. Then with the last balance patch before Christmas they again acknowledged that aliens are "winning 60% of the time" and that they wanted to get that closer to 50/50. So yes, the developers know there is an imbalance. The problem is that they seem unwilling or unable to put a band-aid solution on until they get this fixed. I suspect there is disagreement among staff on the MANNER in which to address this. They know there is a balance issue, they just don't know how to fix it yet.
So until they do decide to release a balance patch that addresses this issue, we're stuck with it.
It's not. Most of the people are not arguing against that. Some are describing ways to win as marine even if it is harder. Others lament over statistics. And many try to analyze where this problem originates. And I think that the asymmetry in teamplay needed between com and players is an important point.
Now, instead of repeating your self over and over, come up with good ideas how to balance this. Less health for the skulk or onos won't fix it. It will only make said classes not fun to play. We need to make marine tactics more forgiving without making them overpowered in skilled hands.
So using binomial distribution and taking OP's stats of 83 games and 62 alien wins:
p=1/2 because that should be probability of aliens winning.
mean=83*1/2=41.5
sd=1/2sqrt(83)=4.56
So (62-50)/4.56=12/4.56=almost 3sd.
Okay, so using this system it's fairly unlikely that aliens would win if the game were balanced, hence it is unbalanced.
Nature of the beast.
The problem is, marines are spread too thin to do this. You need X number of marines to guard the one or 2 comm chairs. You need X number of marines to build, protect and rebuilt extractors that get chewed down. You need X number of marines now to do the above, cut cyst chains. Now, the "L2P" advocates say no problem, it takes a small number of marines to stop skulk rushes in all of these places. I disagree. Unless you are a marine aiming "GOD", you need backup. Everyone says marines should not go alone. This is why. So you need 2+ marines for any given task. Not enough marines. And they lose because of it.
You can cut and dice up WHY, a billion different ways. The bottom line is, something has to change. Marines are losing too much. Their path to victory is too often hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder if less alien players may actually help. Perhaps on that one balance mod I've been hearing about can try that out. I'm curious to see if one or two less alien players can even out the win rates.
As a bonus (if this method actually works), no fundamental changes to the gameplay itself will ne necessary.
As a bonus (if this method actually works), no fundamental changes to the gameplay itself will ne necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, just bind the alien commander to the hive (no way to exit without being ejected) which takes a set of teeth off the field.
Being 2 down would be pretty excessive... but the number of times I've killed 2 or 3 guys hacking away at my home hive because I can instantly pop out and back in at will is a bit embarrassing. Marines have a sort of "here I come" sound and animation that gives aliens warning that the commander is pissed and is going to start shooting stuff while the aliens are in and out without any warning at all.
Though do not get me wrong marines can also harass alien RTs but aliens will always be more effective at it early on. Plus marines usually need to use their axe which makes them a bit easy to kill if you get the drop on them and a marine trying to hit and run is laughable.
Maybe marine RTs should be a bit harder to harass. Perhaps something commander related. Maybe a RT marine upgrade that places a shield on it for a few seconds to keep skulks off it for a set number of seconds that does not reactivate for a while if marines fail to response. And yes I am aware of nano shield but that requires 2 com stations.
Others suggested an electric shield that damages skulks biting it connected to the power node.
Still these ideas may be ridiculous to some but I just want a solution to ease tension off marine RT harassing but nothing too impossible that they cannot be destroyed.
Though do not get me wrong marines can also harass alien RTs but aliens will always be more effective at it early on. Plus marines usually need to use their axe which makes them a bit easy to kill if you get the drop on them and a marine trying to hit and run is laughable.
Maybe marine RTs should be a bit harder to harass. Perhaps something commander related. Maybe a RT marine upgrade that dispels a shield on it for a few seconds to keep skulks off it for a set number of seconds that does not reactivate for a while if marines fail to response. And yes I am aware of nano shield but that requires 2 com stations.
Others suggested an electric shield that damages skulks biting it connected to the power node.
Still these ideas may be ridiculous to some but I just want a solution to ease tension off marine RT harassing but nothing too impossible that they cannot be destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I recall a mod turned vanilla function that allowed marines to electrify RTs in NS1. It was 15 res (I think) to install it so it's as if it was 2 RTs. It did x damage per second but with enough patience, an alien could get it down. Perhaps something similar in here would work where it's tied to the power? So that way they'd have to take down the power and THEN kill the RT even do any damage. Won't deter 2+ skulks but lone skulks would have to think longer about hitting that RT or going for an easier target.
Being 2 down would be pretty excessive... but the number of times I've killed 2 or 3 guys hacking away at my home hive because I can instantly pop out and back in at will is a bit embarrassing. Marines have a sort of "here I come" sound and animation that gives aliens warning that the commander is pissed and is going to start shooting stuff while the aliens are in and out without any warning at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think getting in and out the hive at will provides a bit more tactial nuance and flexibility, so I'd say it should remain in the game.
You are right about the lack of feedback on hive exit, though. Some kind of animation and sound may actually save my life someday. Also, make enter/exit speed on par with marines, since it's a bit too instantaneous.
So until they do decide to release a balance patch that addresses this issue, we're stuck with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK. Good info. Fair enough.
Still very very ping/tickrate dependant. If you go above 75 ping or the server tickrate drops down to 20-25 late game, your hit detection will be terrible. If I'm playing at 120+ ping a lifeform can jump into my face and take up the entire screen (where you wouldn't be able to miss even if you tried) and a perfect shotgun shot will still only do ~60dmg the majority of the time. And it's not really any better on the alien side either...
It's always going to feel bad playing in EU from NA, or wherever, but it just seems a lot more punishing in this game compared to others. If it were at least bearable to scrim with avg pings around 100-120 against <75 pings, the NA comp scene probably wouldn't be quite so dead
What it says is they are all the same (BLS I beleieve is like "play it again sam"...as slight misquote but the point is still made) and that statsistics are just the same as lies and straight out bull######ting.
It in no way says once they get to a certain number they suddenly mean something...75% win rates is as useless a statistic as 5% win rate.
You say you dont care why marines lose....well what happens if the cause actually turns out to be people not knowing how to play?
Selecting wrong upgrads, not getting other etc...you cant balance for stupidity.
You cant make things idiot prrof as idiots are so ingenious.
What I mean by that is try as you might...a bad player will find a way to lose a game they should have won (troll recycling is a great example).
I suggest you start caring about why they lose...as if you want the game balanced you have to understand what caused each result. If there is a clear and consistant game mechanic at fault then we have a way to bring balance.
If there isn't then it comes down to skill/decision making of marines and their comm which causes them to lose.
Its not all about making the winning move...its about not making the losing one. An alien khamm who get teh 1st upgrade at the 10 min mark and chooses shade...will in most cases loses the game for his team.
A marine comm who upgrades to exo's before any weapons or armour upgrades will also cause his team to lose most of the time.
Alien khamm can make fewer game losing mistakes than a marine comm, this is something which influences win loss ratios and is not something you can really balance...as your trying to balance someones thought process and decision making (possibly when drunk, on drugs, sleep deprived or just plain old bad thinking).