<!--quoteo(post=2062755:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:43 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 18 2013, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Com as an alien for a while, wait for that epic marine ninja to turn up in one of your games, and then realize how frikin hard it is to win as aliens when there's just one guy killing your spurs over and over again, finding your shifts and axing them out of existence, and stopping your expansions by cutting critical cysts and leaving the area before you can redirect any skulks to the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the pubs I've played. There's allways 4 marines building the same RT. Holding back, rather waiting for new orders instead of putting pressure on the aliens. No surprise aliens keep winning.
<!--quoteo(post=2062987:date=Jan 18 2013, 09:26 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 18 2013, 09:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What it says is they are all the same (BLS I beleieve is like "play it again sam"...as slight misquote but the point is still made) and that statsistics are just the same as lies and straight out bull######ting. It in no way says once they get to a certain number they suddenly mean something...75% win rates is as useless a statistic as 5% win rate.
You say you dont care why marines lose....well what happens if the cause actually turns out to be people not knowing how to play? Selecting wrong upgrads, not getting other etc...you cant balance for stupidity. You cant make things idiot prrof as idiots are so ingenious. What I mean by that is try as you might...a bad player will find a way to lose a game they should have won (troll recycling is a great example).
I suggest you start caring about why they lose...as if you want the game balanced you have to understand what caused each result. If there is a clear and consistant game mechanic at fault then we have a way to bring balance. If there isn't then it comes down to skill/decision making of marines and their comm which causes them to lose.
Its not all about making the winning move...its about not making the losing one. An alien khamm who get teh 1st upgrade at the 10 min mark and chooses shade...will in most cases loses the game for his team. A marine comm who upgrades to exo's before any weapons or armour upgrades will also cause his team to lose most of the time.
Alien khamm can make fewer game losing mistakes than a marine comm, this is something which influences win loss ratios and is not something you can really balance...as your trying to balance someones thought process and decision making (possibly when drunk, on drugs, sleep deprived or just plain old bad thinking).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care because its not L2P. I started in November. Do I not know how to play? Do I surround myself with 6 to 10 people each game that also don't? There is a difference between expecting a person to understand the game and do reaosonably well at it. And then there a much more difficult expectation of near absolute perfection of marine skills and teamwork in order to win. Is lack of this lofty requirement, not knowing how to play? And yet aliens don't need this, so by the converse, "they always know to play".
GIVE THIS L2P ARGUMENT A REST. IT'S FLAWED. IT'S WRONG AND ALL IT DOES IT HURT THE FUTURE OF GAME.
I win every game I play so the imbalance can't be that bad. Alien wins come a lot quicker and easier though so there is something going on. Honestly marines aren't that poorly balanced, I just see people make some really awful decisions.
Marines and aliens have two different play styles IMO, and the successful alien play style is much closer to what unthinking noobs seem to do. Both teams I see people just randomly running around the map attacking anything they see. For aliens, this actually works, as it spreads the marines thin and picks off any stranglers and finds holes in their defense. For marines, you really cannot just run around and do whatever you want. You have to rush phase, lock down tech points and the few close nodes you get and then rush 3-3 with jet packs. You don't have a choice and you HAVE to stick together. For some reason pubbies just kind of mash down the W key and click a bunch. Literally 0 thought goes into 50% of the people's game play. Aliens are not as punished for this as far as I can tell.
As for what to do about this, I'm of the opinion that it's not really a problem. I've noticed that when you win on marines the aliens just start crying about SKILL IMBALANCE whatever that means. You can't please these imbalance complainers. They want the game to be exactly 50% which is just absurd. If you are losing get better. Life is not about demanding change every time you find a situation you don't like. You have to take this kind of stuff into your own hands and the devs will balance it if they want. If you sit around and complain about all the things that you could be learning to deal with instead, your life is going to be miserable.
Also, you can't pull any meaningful data from pub games, sorry.
<!--quoteo(post=2063136:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:56 PM:name=Norton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Norton @ Jan 19 2013, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've noticed that when you win on marines the aliens just start crying about SKILL IMBALANCE whatever that means. You can't please these imbalance complainers. They want the game to be exactly 50% which is just absurd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this kinda goes to what I said about how the teams win. The only time I see marines win they pretty much dominate the round, being on the alien side in that case feels really unfun. On the contrary a lot of alien wins fluctuate between sides before aliens finally come out on top, as a marine that's still fun, the whole game you feel that you can accomplish something.
Anecdotal evidence and all so I'm sure others have seen differently, but seems common enough to give some thought.
Played a few rounds, aliens won every single one of them by marine surrender. I dont like that new system, as a loser I prefer to play until I actually lose, and as a winner I prefer classy opponents who still puts up a challenge even when I clearly have an advantage in tech and territory. Now my games end prematurely no matter what side I am on :(
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2063133:date=Jan 19 2013, 02:24 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't care because its not L2P. I started in November. Do I not know how to play? Do I surround myself with 6 to 10 people each game that also don't? There is a difference between expecting a person to understand the game and do reaosonably well at it. And then there a much more difficult expectation of near absolute perfection of marine skills and teamwork in order to win. Is lack of this lofty requirement, not knowing how to play? And yet aliens don't need this, so by the converse, "they always know to play".
GIVE THIS L2P ARGUMENT A REST. IT'S FLAWED. IT'S WRONG AND ALL IT DOES IT HURT THE FUTURE OF GAME.
your win ratio is flawed as many have proven. By nstats for example. (On a personal note, I actually had a whole night with mostly marine wins yesterday)
You also keep saying your entire team knows what they are doing. If almost the whole marine team knows what its doing, you will in most cases trash aliens on a pub game. So why do you lose? What is your so called good team structurally doing wrong? You have still not answered this question, while it is vary valid to the topic at hand. EVERY time I see a marine team lose its because they did wrong, in the most ideal situation only the comm. But mostly the team. Making huge mistakes IS a l2p issue.
Now lets for the moment asume, that you can state a losing reason for most marine matches which is not directly tied to such mistakes. I haven't seen one yet, but lets asume regardless. THEN we can start to find a solution to this and fix it. I do see balance is partially flawed due to it being 60/40ish but its not even closely as bad as you descibe.
<!--quoteo(post=2063151:date=Jan 19 2013, 09:56 AM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC_Darkling @ Jan 19 2013, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->your win ratio is flawed as many have proven. By nstats for example. (On a personal note, I actually had a whole night with mostly marine wins yesterday)
You also keep saying your entire team knows what they are doing. If almost the whole marine team knows what its doing, you will in most cases trash aliens on a pub game. So why do you lose? What is your so called good team structurally doing wrong? You have still not answered this question, while it is vary valid to the topic at hand. EVERY time I see a marine team lose its because they did wrong, in the most ideal situation only the comm. But mostly the team. Making huge mistakes IS a l2p issue.
Now lets for the moment asume, that you can state a losing reason for most marine matches which is not directly tied to such mistakes. I haven't seen one yet, but lets asume regardless. THEN we can start to find a solution to this and fix it. I do see balance is partially flawed due to it being 60/40ish but its not even closely as bad as you descibe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, my stats seem to be worse than average.. Maybe I am just having sh**ty games. Let's look to NSStats though. Filter by build 236 and 237 and public games. Aliens are winning about 60%. Now this is interesting, filter by competivie games, the HEROES of NS2, aliens win 70% of the time! Tie this to L2P? Do competitive people need to L2P too?
Ok, why do marines lose so much? There are tons of specific reasons. But the biggest and most simple reason is because they are unable to get as much RT as aliens. The game's current balance makes it this way. Sure, sometimes marines play perfectly and they win. But why not make this easier, more fair, more balanced and more fun so that they can get the RT as easily as aliens. Is that asking so much?
Is it asking to much to have closer games? Games that last longer than 5 minutes more often? Am I really asking too much to have to fight people endlessly on this forum pleading for this?
Almost every game I lose as marines is because the team wasn't aggressive early game, skip mines, have too many people building, and often leave armor upgrades until after 10min. Then they spend the whole early game running between their 3-4 RTs fighting cara skulks and lerks while the aliens control the entire map, and lose most of their engagements because they didn't give themselves anything that actually matters at that stage in the game.
If they're not going to add tutorials or something to make basic marine gameplay/strategy more obvious to new players, then something like building might have to change for marines. Allowing (limited?) MACs to be built from the CC or having buildings go up slowly on their own might at least convince more marines to leave the base sometimes in pubs
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2063160:date=Jan 19 2013, 04:37 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, my stats seem to be worse than average.. Maybe I am just having sh**ty games. Let's look to NSStats though. Filter by build 236 and 237 and public games. Aliens are winning about 60%. Now this is interesting, filter by competivie games, the HEROES of NS2, aliens win 70% of the time! Tie this to L2P? Do competitive people need to L2P too?
Ok, why do marines lose so much? There are tons of specific reasons. But the biggest and most simple reason is because they are unable to get as much RT as aliens. The game's current balance makes it this way. Sure, sometimes marines play perfectly and they win. But why not make this easier, more fair, more balanced and more fun so that they can get the RT as easily as aliens. Is that asking so much?
Is it asking to much to have closer games? Games that last longer than 5 minutes more often? Am I really asking too much to have to fight people endlessly on this forum pleading for this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did infact state that I see it is not 50/50 and i do agree we want 50/50 in a ideal situation. Im not looking at comp play atm, but yes.. if they DO win even more as aliens that IS a clear sign. No you can ask for 'fun games' as long as you actually bring realistic facts, problems and suggestions. The RT one about marines losing them a lot is a start.
Comments
Have we meet before? :)
RT/upgrade raids win games.
It in no way says once they get to a certain number they suddenly mean something...75% win rates is as useless a statistic as 5% win rate.
You say you dont care why marines lose....well what happens if the cause actually turns out to be people not knowing how to play?
Selecting wrong upgrads, not getting other etc...you cant balance for stupidity.
You cant make things idiot prrof as idiots are so ingenious.
What I mean by that is try as you might...a bad player will find a way to lose a game they should have won (troll recycling is a great example).
I suggest you start caring about why they lose...as if you want the game balanced you have to understand what caused each result. If there is a clear and consistant game mechanic at fault then we have a way to bring balance.
If there isn't then it comes down to skill/decision making of marines and their comm which causes them to lose.
Its not all about making the winning move...its about not making the losing one. An alien khamm who get teh 1st upgrade at the 10 min mark and chooses shade...will in most cases loses the game for his team.
A marine comm who upgrades to exo's before any weapons or armour upgrades will also cause his team to lose most of the time.
Alien khamm can make fewer game losing mistakes than a marine comm, this is something which influences win loss ratios and is not something you can really balance...as your trying to balance someones thought process and decision making (possibly when drunk, on drugs, sleep deprived or just plain old bad thinking).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care because its not L2P. I started in November. Do I not know how to play? Do I surround myself with 6 to 10 people each game that also don't? There is a difference between expecting a person to understand the game and do reaosonably well at it. And then there a much more difficult expectation of near absolute perfection of marine skills and teamwork in order to win. Is lack of this lofty requirement, not knowing how to play? And yet aliens don't need this, so by the converse, "they always know to play".
GIVE THIS L2P ARGUMENT A REST. IT'S FLAWED. IT'S WRONG AND ALL IT DOES IT HURT THE FUTURE OF GAME.
Aliens 25 wins, marines 7. 78% win ratio.
Marines and aliens have two different play styles IMO, and the successful alien play style is much closer to what unthinking noobs seem to do. Both teams I see people just randomly running around the map attacking anything they see. For aliens, this actually works, as it spreads the marines thin and picks off any stranglers and finds holes in their defense. For marines, you really cannot just run around and do whatever you want. You have to rush phase, lock down tech points and the few close nodes you get and then rush 3-3 with jet packs. You don't have a choice and you HAVE to stick together. For some reason pubbies just kind of mash down the W key and click a bunch. Literally 0 thought goes into 50% of the people's game play. Aliens are not as punished for this as far as I can tell.
As for what to do about this, I'm of the opinion that it's not really a problem. I've noticed that when you win on marines the aliens just start crying about SKILL IMBALANCE whatever that means. You can't please these imbalance complainers. They want the game to be exactly 50% which is just absurd. If you are losing get better. Life is not about demanding change every time you find a situation you don't like. You have to take this kind of stuff into your own hands and the devs will balance it if they want. If you sit around and complain about all the things that you could be learning to deal with instead, your life is going to be miserable.
Also, you can't pull any meaningful data from pub games, sorry.
I think this kinda goes to what I said about how the teams win. The only time I see marines win they pretty much dominate the round, being on the alien side in that case feels really unfun. On the contrary a lot of alien wins fluctuate between sides before aliens finally come out on top, as a marine that's still fun, the whole game you feel that you can accomplish something.
Anecdotal evidence and all so I'm sure others have seen differently, but seems common enough to give some thought.
I dont like that new system, as a loser I prefer to play until I actually lose, and as a winner I prefer classy opponents who still puts up a challenge even when I clearly have an advantage in tech and territory. Now my games end prematurely no matter what side I am on :(
GIVE THIS L2P ARGUMENT A REST. IT'S FLAWED. IT'S WRONG AND ALL IT DOES IT HURT THE FUTURE OF GAME.
Aliens 25 wins, marines 7. 78% win ratio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your win ratio is flawed as many have proven. By nstats for example.
(On a personal note, I actually had a whole night with mostly marine wins yesterday)
You also keep saying your entire team knows what they are doing. If almost the whole marine team knows what its doing, you will in most cases trash aliens on a pub game. So why do you lose? What is your so called good team structurally doing wrong? You have still not answered this question, while it is vary valid to the topic at hand.
EVERY time I see a marine team lose its because they did wrong, in the most ideal situation only the comm. But mostly the team.
Making huge mistakes IS a l2p issue.
Now lets for the moment asume, that you can state a losing reason for most marine matches which is not directly tied to such mistakes. I haven't seen one yet, but lets asume regardless. THEN we can start to find a solution to this and fix it.
I do see balance is partially flawed due to it being 60/40ish but its not even closely as bad as you descibe.
(On a personal note, I actually had a whole night with mostly marine wins yesterday)
You also keep saying your entire team knows what they are doing. If almost the whole marine team knows what its doing, you will in most cases trash aliens on a pub game. So why do you lose? What is your so called good team structurally doing wrong? You have still not answered this question, while it is vary valid to the topic at hand.
EVERY time I see a marine team lose its because they did wrong, in the most ideal situation only the comm. But mostly the team.
Making huge mistakes IS a l2p issue.
Now lets for the moment asume, that you can state a losing reason for most marine matches which is not directly tied to such mistakes. I haven't seen one yet, but lets asume regardless. THEN we can start to find a solution to this and fix it.
I do see balance is partially flawed due to it being 60/40ish but its not even closely as bad as you descibe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, my stats seem to be worse than average.. Maybe I am just having sh**ty games.
Let's look to NSStats though. Filter by build 236 and 237 and public games. Aliens are winning about 60%. Now this is interesting, filter by competivie games, the HEROES of NS2, aliens win 70% of the time! Tie this to L2P? Do competitive people need to L2P too?
Ok, why do marines lose so much? There are tons of specific reasons. But the biggest and most simple reason is because they are unable to get as much RT as aliens. The game's current balance makes it this way. Sure, sometimes marines play perfectly and they win. But why not make this easier, more fair, more balanced and more fun so that they can get the RT as easily as aliens. Is that asking so much?
Is it asking to much to have closer games? Games that last longer than 5 minutes more often? Am I really asking too much to have to fight people endlessly on this forum pleading for this?
If they're not going to add tutorials or something to make basic marine gameplay/strategy more obvious to new players, then something like building might have to change for marines. Allowing (limited?) MACs to be built from the CC or having buildings go up slowly on their own might at least convince more marines to leave the base sometimes in pubs
Let's look to NSStats though. Filter by build 236 and 237 and public games. Aliens are winning about 60%. Now this is interesting, filter by competivie games, the HEROES of NS2, aliens win 70% of the time! Tie this to L2P? Do competitive people need to L2P too?
Ok, why do marines lose so much? There are tons of specific reasons. But the biggest and most simple reason is because they are unable to get as much RT as aliens. The game's current balance makes it this way. Sure, sometimes marines play perfectly and they win. But why not make this easier, more fair, more balanced and more fun so that they can get the RT as easily as aliens. Is that asking so much?
Is it asking to much to have closer games? Games that last longer than 5 minutes more often? Am I really asking too much to have to fight people endlessly on this forum pleading for this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did infact state that I see it is not 50/50 and i do agree we want 50/50 in a ideal situation.
Im not looking at comp play atm, but yes.. if they DO win even more as aliens that IS a clear sign.
No you can ask for 'fun games' as long as you actually bring realistic facts, problems and suggestions.
The RT one about marines losing them a lot is a start.