<!--quoteo(post=2065413:date=Jan 23 2013, 01:45 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 23 2013, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I already stated on page 1 of this thread: This is a very boring mechanic. Why not showing the "aliens win" when aliens establish the 3rd hive instead of having the game go on with an intentional imbalance? The most fun games are those, that are fair until the "marines/aliens wins"-screen. Those where you can't tell who will win in the end. Skill should determine who wins a match. Not a mechanic like "we got the 3rd hive up".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even-handed turtles are more boring in my book. Anyway, this doesn't have to a boring mechanic if it's done right. Getting to final-tier needs to be sufficiently difficult and it need not be a 100% win outcome. Also, if a game is fair until the "win screen", there's a good chance it just ended in a cheesy rush which I find more frustrating than fun. I much prefer a tug-of-war where the balance of power shifts and gradually snowballs into a decisive victory. I find it more genuine and more rewarding than the "stroke of luck" kind of win. Quite honestly, I think such a mechanic is actually less boring because it promotes aggressive play.
Sherpa had this great graph (which I can't be arsed to find) which showed the typical balance of power shifting in NS1. Marines were most powerful early game, lerks then gave the edge to aliens, sgs+weps took this advantage away, fades balanced this out, second hive gave aliens the upper-hand, end-game marine tech saw marines begin to overpower aliens, 3-hive aliens were the final nail in the coffin.
What determined victory was often whether you could capitalise on those temporary advantages. The fact that aliens had the highest growth potential didn't take anything away from the game - actually, it made late-game alien tech really exciting and offered a natural end to a game. NS2 doesn't yet have this.
The fact that 3 hives almost guaranteed victory was not a problem because it was so rare. NS2 does not have ANY rare tech. You see all of it EVERY game. To be honest, aliens need a 4th hive with 4-hive abilities.
I think we simply disagree on this. Because I like it much more, when I can not determine who will win a game, instead of having to play against overpowered enemies for the last 5 or 10 minutes in the match. I also have no problems with rushs ending a game. I see nothing cheap in it. You outsmarted your enemy by getting that rush through successfully. No matter if it was a hive- or base-rush. It also saves the trouble of turtles. And I think, the fair and balanced tug-of-war will continue much longer when both teams are equal even with 3 hives vs 2 CCs. The winner should finally be determined by skill on a fair and even battle field until the last minute. Finally I don't like the concept of "rare tech". I would be sad, when the onos and exo for example would only show up in 1 of every 10 games.
Anyone tried using a shift to create lots of eggs near enemy base when they are turtling, then doing a continuous xeno on their base? If its effective that might be worth doing on a server with lots of new players who aren't good at the whole teamwork/killing people thing.
The thing you are forgetting is in NS1 marines needed welders to repair there armour(which took time to get around to everyone) but now in NS2 all they have to do is hump the armory
And in NS1 beconing used to bring all the marine back to life so using xeno was the best way to kill/dmg them on mass { also that way aliens with focus could get one hit kills) then other aliens could take down the marine buildings, But in NS2 all the aliens need to do is rush the power nodes which are normal in a vulnerable place then clean up the room. Unlike ns1 which was the arms labs which could be place anywhere
Anyway the 2 points Im trying want to reach here is that 1) Skulks 2/3 use need to xeno right after each other to have any affect, which we have lost that team work in NS2 and 2) marines replenish armour faster/easier now
well thats my half awake post of the day hope it makes sense
Xeno - additional effect knockdown on marines (yeah right)
Vortex still more useful than Xeno by far, I've experimented with it in Combat mode and I have found that it is most useful for allowing an onos to close the distance to an exo without taking much damage (ie. blink in, vortex the exo, onos charges and gets snuggly with the exo then begins the poundage when the effect wears off)
<!--quoteo(post=2065322:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:31 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 23 2013, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but for an ability that kills the skulk and forces them to sit and wait 12 seconds...then get back to fight it should guarantee you kill 1 marine if you are in biting range.
The way I see it there would be a massive uproar if SG did not 1shot a skulk (even with cara), yet here we have a 3rd hive ability (top tier tech...so SG, JP, EXO territory) that cant even kill a single marine when your humping his leg.
It needs a buff or to be available on 1 hive (at a cost) as it loses its ability to kill a marine after the 5 min mark of most games. Even when playing against a marine team without upgrades it does not come close to what it was in NS1, which is was perfectly balanced. When aliens have 1 hive if your not getting 1 shotted with SG...its GL's killing 5 skulks who are munching on an exo (which takes no damage) trying to take out the arcs that can be two (or more such as central arcing deposit) rooms over.
Xeno needs a big buff, issues is most people would simply lok at W:L and say "Aliens are OP'd...xeno is fine as is why you want to buff aliens?" Yet we end up with a concede vote and a community that f4's or recycles bases to end games faster. Fixing alien top tech would go a long way to reducing the number of recycles or concede votes on teh marine side I would suggest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When did I say xeno was fine as it is? It's still crap, But there are are ways to make <i>less</i> crappy until it is seriously improved.
<!--quoteo(post=2065633:date=Jan 24 2013, 10:05 AM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Jan 24 2013, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When did I say xeno was fine as it is? It's still crap, But there are are ways to make <i>less</i> crappy until it is seriously improved.
While it could use a damage buff like 225, or even 250 normal damage (currently 200 norm. DMG), it also could be used more smartly:
(1)Use it on LARGE, close together groups, like an arc/exo push, and I go by the 3 or more rule. (2)Be a creeper, use cloak/scilence to ninja. (3)200 normal damage is a LOT for AoE, use it in tandem with another skulk, or even en masse; 2 or more at once will kill any level marine (4)Too much armor/hp? Get a buddy to B-I-L-E-B-O-M-B and S-P-O-R-E to soften them up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whilst it might be paraphrasing your implying that if used correctly xeno is fine as is and that the issues that its not being used correctly. 1)Large groups does nothing if they are all full health 2) does nothing if they are full health but make it rage worthy as you xeno on a marines head only to be the only one that dies. 3) 200 is not a lot of damage when you consider it does not kill a vanilla marine at teh time it comes out. Also you should not need 2 skulks to kill 1 marine. 4) again it should not need bile or spores to be useful, it kills the skulk. Look at how useful GL's are....they instagib everything but fades and onos.
Xeno needs a serious buff, if you cant easily kill a a3 marine when in biting distance then its a total waste of an ability. The fact is you still wail like a banshee before you explode, a good marine will shoot you before you get to xeno (w3 SG dont exactly find killing skulks hard), it take a fair bit of skill and cunning to get close enough to one marine...let alone 3 or 4.
A big part of Xeno's uselessness seems to stem from being <b>Light Damage Type</b>.
Really what you want at that point in the game -- certainly if you're going to put yourself out of commission until the next respawn -- is <b>Heavy Damage.</b> You want to run into marine start and do some significant damage to their strucutres.
Changing damage type will obviously also require a change to the damage value too (apparently others were suggesting this too as I noticed the post above mine asks this very question), but certainly light damage doesn't allow Xenocide to provide any needed role as a Tier 3 ability.
Even if it was <b>Corrode</b> damage type and you were basically a mobile, 0-resource, single-shot, double-strong bilebomb, it'd have a clearer role.
<!--quoteo(post=2065688:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:00 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 23 2013, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A big part of Xeno's uselessness seems to stem from being <b>Light Damage Type</b>.
Really what you want at that point in the game -- certainly if you're going to put yourself out of commission until the next respawn -- is <b>Heavy Damage.</b> You want to run into marine start and do some significant damage to their strucutres.
Changing damage type will obviously also require a change to the damage value too (apparently others were suggesting this too as I noticed the post above mine asks this very question), but certainly light damage doesn't allow Xenocide to provide any needed role as a Tier 3 ability.
Even if it was <b>Corrode</b> damage type and you were basically a mobile, 0-resource, single-shot, double-strong bilebomb, it'd have a clearer role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure it does normal damage, the wiki often gets it wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2065472:date=Jan 23 2013, 11:08 AM:name=Teabeard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teabeard @ Jan 23 2013, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone tried using a shift to create lots of eggs near enemy base when they are turtling, then doing a continuous xeno on their base? If its effective that might be worth doing on a server with lots of new players who aren't good at the whole teamwork/killing people thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have tried this, it generally does not work. I straight rushed xenocide. Had two shifts outside the marine base. They still had too much armor by the time we got it going. By the time you can get your next wave off, the survivors have healed HP/armor at the armory and the dead have respawned. We were up against some seriously bad marines to even be able to rush xeno and eggspam near thier base. untimately, we nearly lost because it was ineffective and completely screwed our teching and offensive capabilities since we had so many dead players.
<!--quoteo(post=2065668:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:10 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 23 2013, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a game where staying alive is paramount, a designed suicide ability always seemed out of place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea... but you're suiciding a freebie unit and hopefully killing/damaging several enemies. although... move stomp to hive two. Give xeno to onos at hive 3. Deal eleventy billion heavy damage in 50m radius? :P
<!--quoteo(post=2065690:date=Jan 23 2013, 08:03 PM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Jan 23 2013, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure it does normal damage, the wiki often gets it wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah I see. Well still, the point remains.
Actually I guess Structure damage would possibly be a reasonable change too (especially since Xeno explodes similar to GLs which are structure damage.)
I posted <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMG5LK-zLDQ" target="_blank">this video</a> in the last Xeno thread I was in. No changes have affected it since this video was made.
I suggested changing it to heavy damage, but that would mean three skulks would completely wipe out an exo push, and then there wouldd be outcries of OP. Then I suggested increasing it to 300 normal damage. Then it would one always one shot marines, and do 150 to exos. Of course, you could set the damage to 280, and it would knock out A3 marines in point blank distance, and do 140 to Exos.
The problem isn't that Xenocide isn't interesting, you can have a LOT of fun with it. The problem is that it's not effective enough to justify its cost in Tres and skulk deaths.
EDIT: Coincidentally, around 9m28s, you can see an incident of lag compensation causing funny things to happen.
<!--quoteo(post=2065705:date=Jan 23 2013, 09:18 PM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 23 2013, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I posted <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMG5LK-zLDQ" target="_blank">this video</a> in the last Xeno thread I was in. No changes have affected it since this video was made.
I suggested changing it to heavy damage, but that would mean three skulks would completely wipe out an exo push, and then there wouldd be outcries of OP. Then I suggested increasing it to 300 normal damage. Then it would one always one shot marines, and do 150 to exos. Of course, you could set the damage to 280, and it would knock out A3 marines in point blank distance, and do 140 to Exos.
The problem isn't that Xenocide isn't interesting, you can have a LOT of fun with it. The problem is that it's not effective enough to justify its cost in Tres and skulk deaths.
EDIT: Coincidentally, around 9m28s, you can see an incident of lag compensation causing funny things to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original game actually had a fantastic balance with Xeno in that (if memory serves) max-armored marines required a single bite in order to kill them with xenocide -- and you could bite <i>without</i> cancelling the xeno fuse. It resulted in deeper more skill-rewarding gameplay. If you came upon 3 marines with full health you needed to start the fuse and separately bite each one once in order to kill them all -- very rewarding and pretty fair to the marines too.
One-shot from full health doesn't sound very fun, and would only really be valid if the dropoff caused the kill zone to be very narrow. That's why damage type changes are important -- they increase xenocide's value against non-marine targets without generating one-shot-kill scenarios.
<!--quoteo(post=2065733:date=Jan 24 2013, 05:26 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 24 2013, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The original game actually had a fantastic balance with Xeno in that (if memory serves) max-armored marines required a single bite in order to kill them with xenocide -- and you could bite <i>without</i> cancelling the xeno fuse. It resulted in deeper more skill-rewarding gameplay. If you came upon 3 marines with full health you needed to start the fuse and separately bite each one once in order to kill them all -- very rewarding and pretty fair to the marines too.
One-shot from full health doesn't sound very fun, and would only really be valid if the dropoff caused the kill zone to be very narrow. That's why damage type changes are important -- they increase xenocide's value against non-marine targets without generating one-shot-kill scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering that three hives typically meant alien victory within 2 minutes, I don't think you can call any aspect of it "fantastically balanced". Disregarding balance, it created a scenario where all the alien players clicked a button and ran in blindly, dying and spending 30%+ of their time respawning, and the marines were continuously killed by something that essentially could not be avoided.
<!--quoteo(post=2065750:date=Jan 23 2013, 11:49 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 23 2013, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering that three hives typically meant alien victory within 2 minutes, I don't think you can call any aspect of it "fantastically balanced". Disregarding balance, it created a scenario where all the alien players clicked a button and ran in blindly, dying and spending 30%+ of their time respawning, and the marines were continuously killed by something that essentially could not be avoided.
Pretty much a lose/lose gameplay wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So are you proposing Xenocide should be removed from the game on the basis that the best it could possibly be balanced (skill being involved to maximize effectiveness) will inevitably be degenerative gameplay?
<!--quoteo(post=2065753:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:04 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 24 2013, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So are you proposing Xenocide should be removed from the game on the basis that the best it could possibly be balanced (skill being involved to maximize effectiveness) will inevitably be degenerative gameplay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The nostalgic part of me wants to say no, and think of some way that it could be kept in the game. However ultimately I can't see much reward in a system where both players die, and neither can do a lot to prevent it, or needs to do a lot to cause it.
<!--quoteo(post=2065755:date=Jan 24 2013, 03:30 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 24 2013, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The nostalgic part of me wants to say no, and think of some way that it could be kept in the game. However ultimately I can't see much reward in a system where both players die, and neither can do a lot to prevent it, or needs to do a lot to cause it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but the marine can do a lot to prevent it, its called shooting the skulk before he explodes. All the skulk should have to do is get within biting distance without getting instagibbed by SG's, GL's and dodge any sentry/LMG fire.
The banshee wail is also a dead give away of an impending explosion, its like the beeping of an obs...kill it before it finishes those marines dont appear and you dont die. Kill the skulk before the whine peaks and he just dies....currently the marine does not even need to worry about 1 skulk going xeno as it wont kill him on its own when it does.
Does anyone who usually has the highest (or close to the highest) deaths on an alien team think xeno is bad?
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.
(I don't think xeno costs 40 for a hive plus time research plus etc etc either, I think it costs 30 res ... my reasoning is: time appears as a cost for your opportunity cost for going xeno, so does res spent, eliminating these 2 from both sides of my cost vs opportunity cost equation, I get: 30 res on xeno, or 30 res on something else.)
<!--quoteo(post=2065758:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:36 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 24 2013, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but the marine can do a lot to prevent it, its called shooting the skulk before he explodes. All the skulk should have to do is get within biting distance without getting instagibbed by SG's, GL's and dodge any sentry/LMG fire.
The banshee wail is also a dead give away of an impending explosion, its like the beeping of an obs...kill it before it finishes those marines dont appear and you dont die. Kill the skulk before the whine peaks and he just dies....currently the marine does not even need to worry about 1 skulk going xeno as it wont kill him on its own when it does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if you are dealing with substandard skulkers. However, any intermediate player knows that if they don't want to be hit as skulk, then they don't have to be. Because xenocide doesn't require you to be blatantly offensive, you can pretty much survive indefinitely. If there is absolutely no need for my to actively attack someone, fana himself wouldn't be able to kill me.
<!--quoteo(post=2065763:date=Jan 24 2013, 03:49 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 24 2013, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe if you are dealing with substandard skulkers. However, any intermediate player knows that if they don't want to be hit as skulk, then they don't have to be. Because xenocide doesn't require you to be blatantly offensive, you can pretty much survive indefinitely. If there is absolutely no need for my to actively attack someone, fana himself wouldn't be able to kill me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but xeno DOES require you to be blatantly offensive...you HAVE to get within biting range for it to work.
The skulk still needs to get into a well defended room with multiple marines shooting anything that comes through the door. Please go and try this against a half way decent side, lets see how easy it is.
There is far less skill in shooting GL's into a hive room which does not require the marine even exposes himself. This attack requires the skulk to run into a room (not bite anything as that cancels xeno) and time his explosion for when he is ontop of the marine...even then the marine wont die.
<!--quoteo(post=2065762:date=Jan 24 2013, 03:43 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 24 2013, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone who usually has the highest (or close to the highest) deaths on an alien team think xeno is bad?
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.
(I don't think xeno costs 40 for a hive plus time research plus etc etc either, I think it costs 30 res ... my reasoning is: time appears as a cost for your opportunity cost for going xeno, so does res spent, eliminating these 2 from both sides of my cost vs opportunity cost equation, I get: 30 res on xeno, or 30 res on something else.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I am far from teh best skulk going around and dont value my life enough to give 2 hoots about my own K:D. Even for sh*ts and giggles xeno is dissapointing...heck if I would be able to consitantly take out 1 marine with it I would be happy. As a late game skulk your destined to spawn-die-dpawn-die in rapid succession, the fact is even bad skulks stand a better chance of getting a kill simply running in and biting.
<!--quoteo(post=2065767:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 24 2013, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but xeno DOES require you to be blatantly offensive...you HAVE to get within biting range for it to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well which xeno are we talking about here? NS1 style xeno might have required you to get closer, but you could still simply explode the very microsecond that you got in range, meaning that you were playing offensively for a fraction of a second. NS2 xeno, on the other hand, has a ridiculous range. It honestly has a diameter of about 3 Onos lengths. It is just massive.
<!--quoteo(post=2065772:date=Jan 24 2013, 04:24 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 24 2013, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well which xeno are we talking about here? NS1 style xeno might have required you to get closer, but you could still simply explode the very microsecond that you got in range, meaning that you were playing offensively for a fraction of a second. NS2 xeno, on the other hand, has a ridiculous range. It honestly has a diameter of about 3 Onos lengths. It is just massive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you used xeno? You could never explode teh microsecond you got in range at all. You trigger xeno, it then ramps up (you scream to warn) and about 2 seconds after you started screaming you explode right at the loudest and highest pitch of the skulk scream.
In Ns1 yould could still bite withouth cancelling (atleast in later versions) but in NS2 if you do anything but leap or jump you cancel the xeno. I dont know what this range your referring to is....every time a skulk has been more than 2-3 metres away I have taken almost no damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2065775:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:35 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 24 2013, 08:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you used xeno? You could never explode teh microsecond you got in range at all. You trigger xeno, it then ramps up (you scream to warn) and about 2 seconds after you started screaming you explode right at the loudest and highest pitch of the skulk scream.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you obviously don't trigger xeno while in combat, and wait the full 2 seconds while vulnerable. You trigger it out of combat and leap in. The timing is incredibly easy to get right.
Ok, how about this as a true, skill based compromise. Instead of the skulk exploding on a timer, and the marine having to shoot it before it does, what if the skulk exploded if it was killed during the timer? So, you use xenocide, it drains all your energy, down to zero (regardless of how much you had to start), and you let out the typical screech. Then, for two seconds, if you are killed, you will explode. If the marine's don't shoot you during those two seconds, nothing happens and you have zero energy. This way it would take presence of mind for a marine to know not to shoot you yet, and skulks could use this as an escape mechanism / last ditch effort, rather than having suicide be their main focus the moment they enter combat.
<!--quoteo(post=2065779:date=Jan 24 2013, 04:44 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 24 2013, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you obviously don't trigger xeno while in combat, and wait the full 2 seconds while vulnerable. You trigger it out of combat and leap in. The timing is incredibly easy to get right.
Ok, how about this as a true, skill based compromise. Instead of the skulk exploding on a timer, and the marine having to shoot it before it does, what if the skulk exploded if it was killed during the timer? So, you use xenocide, it drains all your energy, down to zero (regardless of how much you had to start), and you let out the typical screech. Then, for two seconds, if you are killed, you will explode. If the marine's don't shoot you during those two seconds, nothing happens and you have zero energy. This way it would take presence of mind for a marine to know not to shoot you yet, and skulks could use this as an escape mechanism / last ditch effort, rather than having suicide be their main focus the moment they enter combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So instead the skulk tried ot get shot? So if the marines cant aim the skulk is now out of energy, cant bite or really do anything.
How about no, marines already have enough in their favour in melee battles (no ramp up time on sideways strafe, range, JP's then we can get onto GL's, FT SG), which is meant to be their achilies heel and aliens forte.
Xeno takes skill in its current to do damage...the only issue is you cant get even close to doing enough damage. Any damage done is healed in seconds at an armoury...meanwhile alien waits 12 seconds to respawn....evolve and run across map back to battle.
<!--quoteo(post=2065789:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:52 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 24 2013, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So instead the skulk tried ot get shot? So if the marines cant aim the skulk is now out of energy, cant bite or really do anything.
How about no, marines already have enough in their favour in melee battles (no ramp up time on sideways strafe, range, JP's then we can get onto GL's, FT SG), which is meant to be their achilies heel and aliens forte.
Xeno takes skill in its current to do damage...the only issue is you cant get even close to doing enough damage. Any damage done is healed in seconds at an armoury...meanwhile alien waits 12 seconds to respawn....evolve and run across map back to battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either you are just trying to shoot down ideas, or you don't seem to have much tactical savvy when it comes to even the most obvious mechanics...
No, the alien doesn't <b>try </b>to get shot, he plays completely normally, as if he didn't even have xenocide. You leap, you parasite, you jump and you bite, and if you have the timing, and if you have the presence of mind, you use xenocide moments before you know you will die, and you explode in a fiery ball. Isn't that what you wanted? To be able to attack and explode?
screw you! I think its a great suggestion! Ima make a thread for it...
Comments
Even-handed turtles are more boring in my book. Anyway, this doesn't have to a boring mechanic if it's done right. Getting to final-tier needs to be sufficiently difficult and it need not be a 100% win outcome. Also, if a game is fair until the "win screen", there's a good chance it just ended in a cheesy rush which I find more frustrating than fun. I much prefer a tug-of-war where the balance of power shifts and gradually snowballs into a decisive victory. I find it more genuine and more rewarding than the "stroke of luck" kind of win. Quite honestly, I think such a mechanic is actually less boring because it promotes aggressive play.
Sherpa had this great graph (which I can't be arsed to find) which showed the typical balance of power shifting in NS1. Marines were most powerful early game, lerks then gave the edge to aliens, sgs+weps took this advantage away, fades balanced this out, second hive gave aliens the upper-hand, end-game marine tech saw marines begin to overpower aliens, 3-hive aliens were the final nail in the coffin.
What determined victory was often whether you could capitalise on those temporary advantages. The fact that aliens had the highest growth potential didn't take anything away from the game - actually, it made late-game alien tech really exciting and offered a natural end to a game. NS2 doesn't yet have this.
The fact that 3 hives almost guaranteed victory was not a problem because it was so rare. NS2 does not have ANY rare tech. You see all of it EVERY game. To be honest, aliens need a 4th hive with 4-hive abilities.
I also have no problems with rushs ending a game. I see nothing cheap in it. You outsmarted your enemy by getting that rush through successfully. No matter if it was a hive- or base-rush. It also saves the trouble of turtles.
And I think, the fair and balanced tug-of-war will continue much longer when both teams are equal even with 3 hives vs 2 CCs. The winner should finally be determined by skill on a fair and even battle field until the last minute.
Finally I don't like the concept of "rare tech". I would be sad, when the onos and exo for example would only show up in 1 of every 10 games.
i.e. if you xeno next to an armory, you can't buy items from it for a few seconds.
And in NS1 beconing used to bring all the marine back to life so using xeno was the best way to kill/dmg them on mass { also that way aliens with focus could get one hit kills)
then other aliens could take down the marine buildings, But in NS2 all the aliens need to do is rush the power nodes which are normal in a vulnerable place then clean up the room. Unlike ns1 which was the arms labs which could be place anywhere
Anyway the 2 points Im trying want to reach here is that 1) Skulks 2/3 use need to xeno right after each other to have any affect, which we have lost that team work in NS2 and 2) marines replenish armour faster/easier now
well thats my half awake post of the day hope it makes sense
Vortex still more useful than Xeno by far, I've experimented with it in Combat mode and I have found that it is most useful for allowing an onos to close the distance to an exo without taking much damage (ie. blink in, vortex the exo, onos charges and gets snuggly with the exo then begins the poundage when the effect wears off)
The way I see it there would be a massive uproar if SG did not 1shot a skulk (even with cara), yet here we have a 3rd hive ability (top tier tech...so SG, JP, EXO territory) that cant even kill a single marine when your humping his leg.
It needs a buff or to be available on 1 hive (at a cost) as it loses its ability to kill a marine after the 5 min mark of most games.
Even when playing against a marine team without upgrades it does not come close to what it was in NS1, which is was perfectly balanced.
When aliens have 1 hive if your not getting 1 shotted with SG...its GL's killing 5 skulks who are munching on an exo (which takes no damage) trying to take out the arcs that can be two (or more such as central arcing deposit) rooms over.
Xeno needs a big buff, issues is most people would simply lok at W:L and say "Aliens are OP'd...xeno is fine as is why you want to buff aliens?"
Yet we end up with a concede vote and a community that f4's or recycles bases to end games faster. Fixing alien top tech would go a long way to reducing the number of recycles or concede votes on teh marine side I would suggest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did I say xeno was fine as it is? It's still crap, But there are are ways to make <i>less</i> crappy until it is seriously improved.
Make it kill A3 Marines, but make some sort of visual to the marines that this skulk has Xeno ability.
Like glow red or something (just a example) (Glows all the time, not just went about to set off)
Not sure of the radius now, but make use its not that big, marines will have to really be bunched up to get a couple.
<!--quoteo(post=2065633:date=Jan 24 2013, 10:05 AM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Jan 24 2013, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
While it could use a damage buff like 225, or even 250 normal damage (currently 200 norm. DMG), it also could be used more smartly:
(1)Use it on LARGE, close together groups, like an arc/exo push, and I go by the 3 or more rule.
(2)Be a creeper, use cloak/scilence to ninja.
(3)200 normal damage is a LOT for AoE, use it in tandem with another skulk, or even en masse; 2 or more at once will kill any level marine
(4)Too much armor/hp? Get a buddy to B-I-L-E-B-O-M-B and S-P-O-R-E to soften them up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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Whilst it might be paraphrasing your implying that if used correctly xeno is fine as is and that the issues that its not being used correctly.
1)Large groups does nothing if they are all full health
2) does nothing if they are full health but make it rage worthy as you xeno on a marines head only to be the only one that dies.
3) 200 is not a lot of damage when you consider it does not kill a vanilla marine at teh time it comes out. Also you should not need 2 skulks to kill 1 marine.
4) again it should not need bile or spores to be useful, it kills the skulk. Look at how useful GL's are....they instagib everything but fades and onos.
Xeno needs a serious buff, if you cant easily kill a a3 marine when in biting distance then its a total waste of an ability.
The fact is you still wail like a banshee before you explode, a good marine will shoot you before you get to xeno (w3 SG dont exactly find killing skulks hard), it take a fair bit of skill and cunning to get close enough to one marine...let alone 3 or 4.
Really what you want at that point in the game -- certainly if you're going to put yourself out of commission until the next respawn -- is <b>Heavy Damage.</b> You want to run into marine start and do some significant damage to their strucutres.
Changing damage type will obviously also require a change to the damage value too (apparently others were suggesting this too as I noticed the post above mine asks this very question), but certainly light damage doesn't allow Xenocide to provide any needed role as a Tier 3 ability.
Even if it was <b>Corrode</b> damage type and you were basically a mobile, 0-resource, single-shot, double-strong bilebomb, it'd have a clearer role.
Really what you want at that point in the game -- certainly if you're going to put yourself out of commission until the next respawn -- is <b>Heavy Damage.</b> You want to run into marine start and do some significant damage to their strucutres.
Changing damage type will obviously also require a change to the damage value too (apparently others were suggesting this too as I noticed the post above mine asks this very question), but certainly light damage doesn't allow Xenocide to provide any needed role as a Tier 3 ability.
Even if it was <b>Corrode</b> damage type and you were basically a mobile, 0-resource, single-shot, double-strong bilebomb, it'd have a clearer role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure it does normal damage, the wiki often gets it wrong.
I have tried this, it generally does not work. I straight rushed xenocide. Had two shifts outside the marine base. They still had too much armor by the time we got it going. By the time you can get your next wave off, the survivors have healed HP/armor at the armory and the dead have respawned. We were up against some seriously bad marines to even be able to rush xeno and eggspam near thier base. untimately, we nearly lost because it was ineffective and completely screwed our teching and offensive capabilities since we had so many dead players.
<!--quoteo(post=2065668:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:10 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 23 2013, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a game where staying alive is paramount, a designed suicide ability always seemed out of place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea... but you're suiciding a freebie unit and hopefully killing/damaging several enemies. although... move stomp to hive two. Give xeno to onos at hive 3. Deal eleventy billion heavy damage in 50m radius? :P
Ah I see. Well still, the point remains.
Actually I guess Structure damage would possibly be a reasonable change too (especially since Xeno explodes similar to GLs which are structure damage.)
I suggested changing it to heavy damage, but that would mean three skulks would completely wipe out an exo push, and then there wouldd be outcries of OP. Then I suggested increasing it to 300 normal damage. Then it would one always one shot marines, and do 150 to exos. Of course, you could set the damage to 280, and it would knock out A3 marines in point blank distance, and do 140 to Exos.
The problem isn't that Xenocide isn't interesting, you can have a LOT of fun with it. The problem is that it's not effective enough to justify its cost in Tres and skulk deaths.
EDIT: Coincidentally, around 9m28s, you can see an incident of lag compensation causing funny things to happen.
I suggested changing it to heavy damage, but that would mean three skulks would completely wipe out an exo push, and then there wouldd be outcries of OP. Then I suggested increasing it to 300 normal damage. Then it would one always one shot marines, and do 150 to exos. Of course, you could set the damage to 280, and it would knock out A3 marines in point blank distance, and do 140 to Exos.
The problem isn't that Xenocide isn't interesting, you can have a LOT of fun with it. The problem is that it's not effective enough to justify its cost in Tres and skulk deaths.
EDIT: Coincidentally, around 9m28s, you can see an incident of lag compensation causing funny things to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original game actually had a fantastic balance with Xeno in that (if memory serves) max-armored marines required a single bite in order to kill them with xenocide -- and you could bite <i>without</i> cancelling the xeno fuse. It resulted in deeper more skill-rewarding gameplay. If you came upon 3 marines with full health you needed to start the fuse and separately bite each one once in order to kill them all -- very rewarding and pretty fair to the marines too.
One-shot from full health doesn't sound very fun, and would only really be valid if the dropoff caused the kill zone to be very narrow. That's why damage type changes are important -- they increase xenocide's value against non-marine targets without generating one-shot-kill scenarios.
One-shot from full health doesn't sound very fun, and would only really be valid if the dropoff caused the kill zone to be very narrow. That's why damage type changes are important -- they increase xenocide's value against non-marine targets without generating one-shot-kill scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering that three hives typically meant alien victory within 2 minutes, I don't think you can call any aspect of it "fantastically balanced". Disregarding balance, it created a scenario where all the alien players clicked a button and ran in blindly, dying and spending 30%+ of their time respawning, and the marines were continuously killed by something that essentially could not be avoided.
Pretty much a lose/lose gameplay wise.
Pretty much a lose/lose gameplay wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So are you proposing Xenocide should be removed from the game on the basis that the best it could possibly be balanced (skill being involved to maximize effectiveness) will inevitably be degenerative gameplay?
The nostalgic part of me wants to say no, and think of some way that it could be kept in the game. However ultimately I can't see much reward in a system where both players die, and neither can do a lot to prevent it, or needs to do a lot to cause it.
Sorry but the marine can do a lot to prevent it, its called shooting the skulk before he explodes. All the skulk should have to do is get within biting distance without getting instagibbed by SG's, GL's and dodge any sentry/LMG fire.
The banshee wail is also a dead give away of an impending explosion, its like the beeping of an obs...kill it before it finishes those marines dont appear and you dont die.
Kill the skulk before the whine peaks and he just dies....currently the marine does not even need to worry about 1 skulk going xeno as it wont kill him on its own when it does.
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.
(I don't think xeno costs 40 for a hive plus time research plus etc etc either, I think it costs 30 res ... my reasoning is: time appears as a cost for your opportunity cost for going xeno, so does res spent, eliminating these 2 from both sides of my cost vs opportunity cost equation, I get: 30 res on xeno, or 30 res on something else.)
The banshee wail is also a dead give away of an impending explosion, its like the beeping of an obs...kill it before it finishes those marines dont appear and you dont die.
Kill the skulk before the whine peaks and he just dies....currently the marine does not even need to worry about 1 skulk going xeno as it wont kill him on its own when it does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if you are dealing with substandard skulkers. However, any intermediate player knows that if they don't want to be hit as skulk, then they don't have to be. Because xenocide doesn't require you to be blatantly offensive, you can pretty much survive indefinitely. If there is absolutely no need for my to actively attack someone, fana himself wouldn't be able to kill me.
Sorry but xeno DOES require you to be blatantly offensive...you HAVE to get within biting range for it to work.
The skulk still needs to get into a well defended room with multiple marines shooting anything that comes through the door.
Please go and try this against a half way decent side, lets see how easy it is.
There is far less skill in shooting GL's into a hive room which does not require the marine even exposes himself.
This attack requires the skulk to run into a room (not bite anything as that cancels xeno) and time his explosion for when he is ontop of the marine...even then the marine wont die.
<!--quoteo(post=2065762:date=Jan 24 2013, 03:43 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 24 2013, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone who usually has the highest (or close to the highest) deaths on an alien team think xeno is bad?
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.
(I don't think xeno costs 40 for a hive plus time research plus etc etc either, I think it costs 30 res ... my reasoning is: time appears as a cost for your opportunity cost for going xeno, so does res spent, eliminating these 2 from both sides of my cost vs opportunity cost equation, I get: 30 res on xeno, or 30 res on something else.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I am far from teh best skulk going around and dont value my life enough to give 2 hoots about my own K:D.
Even for sh*ts and giggles xeno is dissapointing...heck if I would be able to consitantly take out 1 marine with it I would be happy.
As a late game skulk your destined to spawn-die-dpawn-die in rapid succession, the fact is even bad skulks stand a better chance of getting a kill simply running in and biting.
Well which xeno are we talking about here? NS1 style xeno might have required you to get closer, but you could still simply explode the very microsecond that you got in range, meaning that you were playing offensively for a fraction of a second. NS2 xeno, on the other hand, has a ridiculous range. It honestly has a diameter of about 3 Onos lengths. It is just massive.
Have you used xeno? You could never explode teh microsecond you got in range at all.
You trigger xeno, it then ramps up (you scream to warn) and about 2 seconds after you started screaming you explode right at the loudest and highest pitch of the skulk scream.
In Ns1 yould could still bite withouth cancelling (atleast in later versions) but in NS2 if you do anything but leap or jump you cancel the xeno.
I dont know what this range your referring to is....every time a skulk has been more than 2-3 metres away I have taken almost no damage.
You trigger xeno, it then ramps up (you scream to warn) and about 2 seconds after you started screaming you explode right at the loudest and highest pitch of the skulk scream.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you obviously don't trigger xeno while in combat, and wait the full 2 seconds while vulnerable. You trigger it out of combat and leap in. The timing is incredibly easy to get right.
Ok, how about this as a true, skill based compromise. Instead of the skulk exploding on a timer, and the marine having to shoot it before it does, what if the skulk exploded if it was killed during the timer?
So, you use xenocide, it drains all your energy, down to zero (regardless of how much you had to start), and you let out the typical screech. Then, for two seconds, if you are killed, you will explode. If the marine's don't shoot you during those two seconds, nothing happens and you have zero energy. This way it would take presence of mind for a marine to know not to shoot you yet, and skulks could use this as an escape mechanism / last ditch effort, rather than having suicide be their main focus the moment they enter combat.
Ok, how about this as a true, skill based compromise. Instead of the skulk exploding on a timer, and the marine having to shoot it before it does, what if the skulk exploded if it was killed during the timer?
So, you use xenocide, it drains all your energy, down to zero (regardless of how much you had to start), and you let out the typical screech. Then, for two seconds, if you are killed, you will explode. If the marine's don't shoot you during those two seconds, nothing happens and you have zero energy. This way it would take presence of mind for a marine to know not to shoot you yet, and skulks could use this as an escape mechanism / last ditch effort, rather than having suicide be their main focus the moment they enter combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So instead the skulk tried ot get shot? So if the marines cant aim the skulk is now out of energy, cant bite or really do anything.
How about no, marines already have enough in their favour in melee battles (no ramp up time on sideways strafe, range, JP's then we can get onto GL's, FT SG), which is meant to be their achilies heel and aliens forte.
Xeno takes skill in its current to do damage...the only issue is you cant get even close to doing enough damage. Any damage done is healed in seconds at an armoury...meanwhile alien waits 12 seconds to respawn....evolve and run across map back to battle.
How about no, marines already have enough in their favour in melee battles (no ramp up time on sideways strafe, range, JP's then we can get onto GL's, FT SG), which is meant to be their achilies heel and aliens forte.
Xeno takes skill in its current to do damage...the only issue is you cant get even close to doing enough damage. Any damage done is healed in seconds at an armoury...meanwhile alien waits 12 seconds to respawn....evolve and run across map back to battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either you are just trying to shoot down ideas, or you don't seem to have much tactical savvy when it comes to even the most obvious mechanics...
No, the alien doesn't <b>try </b>to get shot, he plays completely normally, as if he didn't even have xenocide. You leap, you parasite, you jump and you bite, and if you have the timing, and if you have the presence of mind, you use xenocide moments before you know you will die, and you explode in a fiery ball. Isn't that what you wanted? To be able to attack and explode?
screw you! I think its a great suggestion! Ima make a thread for it...