Team Balancing
Caucasian
Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9993Members
Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9993Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Unfair Alien Advantage</div> I am the server admin/owner for [DoGS] Naked Aggression. Over the past 3-4 weeks, I've noticed that when the aliens obtain their 2nd hive and have Fades/Lerk w/ Umbra, the game goes downhill in the alien favor. Is their any way to weaken the alien side just a little? The game should be teetering on the marines having a slight advantage over the alien side. Once the alien side has all 3 hives, well the alien team should be at full strength. I have noticed this being both on the alien and marine side. The marines do have all 3 Arms Lab/Weapons upgrades w/ all 3 armour upgrades.
Just a suggestion.
Keep up the excellent work Flayra.
Just a suggestion.
Keep up the excellent work Flayra.
Comments
Screw it, fades are fine, don't nerf fades unless you nerf HA HMG.
The aliens have 2 bases, and the marines have one, yet the marines should have an advantage (however slight)? The goal should be balance. Pure and simple.
I think the problem with the game now is that the balance of power can shift even if both sides are developing properly. It's supposed to go like this:
Aliens - 1 hive. Marines have LMG, turrets, mines. By the time lerks show up armor, shotguns and motion tracking should help balance.
Aliens - 2 hives. Marines should have HMG and possibly HA, not to mention siege capability. More than adequate to handle Fades if used properly.
Aliens - 3 hives. Onos, Bile Bomb and Spore Cloud. Dangerous, yes, but at this point it becomes crucial for Marines to take out a hive to eliminate these things. Jetpacks, grenade launchers and siege warfare.
The fade would still have its claws, but there's a problem with that. Claws are pretty good against small numbers of marines or turrets, and very bad (nearly sure suicide) against bigger groups. So this would make an alien comeback against a big turret farm nearly impossible.
2.) A single Fade should loose against bigger groups. This game is called natural selection and not Superfades.
3.) It needs skill to make a pistol kill. With acid rocket just fire in their general direction and you will do lots of damage
4.) Adrenaline recharges fast. Once your out of ammo your screwed.
Fades are fine. They are expensive and excellent counters for HA and HMG's. The problem is how skilled the marine is behind the HA and HMG, If you nerf the Fade and it gets wacked before it even gets off a rocket would it be fair for the aliens?
The balance is fine.
So far for theory. Now talking about reality, i was able to kill ha/hmg marines as fade and i was able to kill fades as ha/hmg marine, so i don't see a problem there either (unless you want me to say that killing a fade as ha/hmg marine is easier and so fades need an upgrade :o).
MARINES CAN ONLY WIN IF THEY PREVENT FADES. Or the aliens are a bunch of newbies.
1.) You die with 2 acid rockets and the damage you did in that time is healed by the def chamber nearby. The same goes for your mate that rushed with you bc of splash damage.
2.) Most of the time there is more than 1 fade meaning while 1 regenerates/retreats the other keeps incoming marines at bay
3.) If there is a lerk casting umbra you will suffer the pain of the 1000 useless deaths.
4.) A gorge webbing/offence towering is the final chapter in the great book of alien assault tactics.
Summary: Aliens and their buildings regenerate marines not so in the long run marines nearly always loose. The comm cannot babysit every single group of marines dropping health packs and welders, he has attacks to fend of, build stuff, research, give orders, keep nozzles alive equipp people.. you get the idea. And a HA guy is worth **obscenity** if hes webbed.(And if he weldes the fade rocket him)
Most deadly combination ingame : FADE/GORG combo. I do it alot so if you are on a 1.04 sever watch out. The gorg webbing, healing the nearby fades and putting OC in your base is me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Two possible solutions, you either suck horribly or are whining about 0 rp la/lmg spawns not beeing able to win against 50 rp long time evolving fades. I have no problems as ha/hmg marine to kill fades (takes between 2 or 3 seconds depending if they use carapace or not). And siege cannons still work great unless you are playing "scared little kid hiding in base".
Of course a single lmg/la marine will loose against a fade/lerk/gorge combo, so will a skulk against a group of marines equiped with ha, hmg, shotty and gren launcher.
Kill all remaining nozzles then finish the last remainings of HA guys and from then on its a fragfest. Since they have no more money for ha they loose pretty fast.
I prefer to go marines because we are only able to win about 20% of the time (its a challenge).
I play on various public servers with lots of regs, which are great players.
I was appauled when I saw the new patch, which made it even more difficult to be a marine (some good stuff in the patch tho).
It is way too eazy to win as aliens.
-1 gorge just builds a few RTs, then saves for a hive.
-Everyone else goes skulk and slows marine advancement/protects RTs & Hive.
-2nd hive comes up (marines may have been able to secure a hive.... sometimes not).
-Fades finish the game with the help of the gorge and a few defense chambers.
Idea to help give organized well played marines a 50/50 chance at victory:
-Get rid of the adrenalyn movement upgrade.
-Fades are managable and need to be more cautious without a near endless supply of acid rockets.
I don't want to brag, but I am almost unstoppable as a fade with Carpace and Adrenalyn.
I am able to blink away to saftey to heal time and time again.
*cough*
Nice round 200/150. Coincidence? Nah.
My suggestion would be 180Hp 120armour and go thru with reducing splash damage range and damage. PLUS (theres always more) give acid rocket a penalty vs buildings.
My biggest problem with the fade is its allround ability, its meant to be a team game is it not? And fades are dirt cheap, only 11 res concidering as a skulk youd have stockpiled 33res easy by the time u get a 2nd hive.
I prefer to go marines because we are only able to win about 20% of the time (its a challenge).
I play on various public servers with lots of regs, which are great players.
I was appauled when I saw the new patch, which made it even more difficult to be a marine (some good stuff in the patch tho).
It is way too eazy to win as aliens.
-1 gorge just builds a few RTs, then saves for a hive.
-Everyone else goes skulk and slows marine advancement/protects RTs & Hive.
-2nd hive comes up (marines may have been able to secure a hive.... sometimes not).
-Fades finish the game with the help of the gorge and a few defense chambers.
Idea to help give organized well played marines a 50/50 chance at victory:
-Get rid of the adrenalyn movement upgrade.
-Fades are managable and need to be more cautious without a near endless supply of acid rockets.
I don't want to brag, but I am almost unstoppable as a fade with Carpace and Adrenalyn.
I am able to blink away to saftey to heal time and time again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So first you say you enjoy marines because it is a challange cause they have it oh so hard to win and then you make suggestions to take away your challange you like so much? Can't follow your logic here. Even more ridiculous it gets when you come to your "near endless supply of acid rockets" which are exactly 5 with adrenaline level 3. Followed by a aprox 7 sec reload phase. Wonder what you call the hmg clip of the marine then when 5 are allready near endless for you.
*cough*
Nice round 200/150. Coincidence? Nah.
My suggestion would be 180Hp 120armour and go thru with reducing splash damage range and damage. PLUS (theres always more) give acid rocket a penalty vs buildings.
My biggest problem with the fade is its allround ability, its meant to be a team game is it not? And fades are dirt cheap, only 11 res concidering as a skulk youd have stockpiled 33res easy by the time u get a 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I congratulate you to your awesome "ability to think" but here some points where it seems to have left you. First of all numbers for fades are 200/125, not 200/150. Last one is the numbers for fade with carapace 3. Second a pretty good clue that the actual fade stats where not thrown in with little experimentation is that they were changed after a few month of gameplay (where they WERE thrown in with little experimentation) to what they are now. And by the way, just because a number for health has no decimals or can be divided by 2 or 5 not automaticaly mean that it was put up without any experimentation.
About fades beeing dirty cheap, well if you call 44 rp plus 2 for each upgrade dirty cheap then ha/hmg guys are dirty cheap as well. And the "ability" of the skulk to stockpile 33 res is not an ability but a limitation. It simply can't do anything with the resources till then. Your commander could stockpile 33 res for each marine as well, but he has the option to do something else with it and he usually uses this option. So that is a big plus for marines, not for aliens.
Wah wah wah.
Fades are not the all invincible killing machines you guys are making them out to be. All it takes it a little bit of BRAINS and balls to kill them. LMG marines can take one out if they play it smart. The problem is that alot of marines are cowards that run back to hide behind the turrent farms as soon as their hair gets a little messed up. How do I know this? I play on both teams. Ya know what I hate as a fade? When marines chase me when I try to fall back to heal after I attack. Know how often that happens? Very very rarely. I can't count the number of times I have lived because the marines let me run away. Remember marines, you life is worth nothing without the team. Throw yourselves at the fades. Do not stop attacking until you are dead. Do not fall back for anything. If you are an LMG marine, just die. Use every last bullet you have before your body hits the ground, and keep the fade in your sights at all times. That is the key. You lose track of the fade, you and your teammates are dead.
If you are having the same problems as an fully upgraded marine with all the trimmings, well, I'm sorry, you must really, really suck, or your marine somehow lost his inhaler inside that big metal suit of his.
Wah wah wah.
Fades are not the all invincible killing machines you guys are making them out to be. All it takes it a little bit of BRAINS and balls to kill them. LMG marines can take one out if they play it smart. The problem is that alot of marines are cowards that run back to hide behind the turrent farms as soon as their hair gets a little messed up. How do I know this? I play on both teams. Ya know what I hate as a fade? When marines chase me when I try to fall back to heal after I attack. Know how often that happens? Very very rarely. I can't count the number of times I have lived because the marines let me run away. Remember marines, you life is worth nothing without the team. Throw yourselves at the fades. Do not stop attacking until you are dead. Do not fall back for anything. If you are an LMG marine, just die. Use every last bullet you have before your body hits the ground, and keep the fade in your sights at all times. That is the key. You lose track of the fade, you and your teammates are dead.
If you are having the same problems as an fully upgraded marine with all the trimmings, well, I'm sorry, you must really, really suck, or your marine somehow lost his inhaler inside that big metal suit of his.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate those kinda marines too... Even the guys with good aim still run away
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are all great posts, i just wish u all didnt have to try and flame each other while making your points.
Anyway, these forums are here to debate things, if we didnt, then it would be a fairly boring place.
Not sure about fades, but, noticed that when u play on small servers, Aliens kick arse, big servers, opposite.
Is the game balanced? I havent made my mind up yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just enjoying playing.
Because of this, Marines require much more RP to function...and so on a larger server where the Marines get a much larger "team pool" of resources...they can afford to be upgraded and get Heavy Armour, Heavy Machine Guns and the like...whereas the Aliens are still getting those same resources; but still divvied up amongst each player, thereby giving each individual player no real bonus to their resources while the Marines are rolling in team-shared resources.
Basically...on a small server Aliens can get a second Hive and have one Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline completely DESTROY the Marines while the Marines are still frantically trying to afford to pump some upgrades out of their Arms Lab.
This is just a flaw of the resource model...
Just enjoying playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said ... I just wish everyone would do just that instead of beating a dead horse. In this case, the horse is dead, buried, decayed, and reincarnated as a monkey.
The aliens mid-game of 2 hives seems to be too powerful, too quick. Unless the skulks are playing horribly, the marines shouldn't have the economy to have good armor/weapon upgrades or ha/hmg/sg/gl.
Our server is a 18 player server. We are probably not upgrading to 1.04 simply because it will cause more alien wins, which will make our games not as fun. I know the game cannot be balanced for every game type, but the majority of NS servers our public 16-20 players like ours. Aliens simply win way too often as soon as hive 2 goes up. Balance modifications that target the alien mid-game would be greatly appreciated.
The aliens have 2 bases, and the marines have one, yet the marines should have an advantage (however slight)? The goal should be balance. Pure and simple.
I think the problem with the game now is that the balance of power can shift even if both sides are developing properly. It's supposed to go like this:
Aliens - 1 hive. Marines have LMG, turrets, mines. By the time lerks show up armor, shotguns and motion tracking should help balance.
Aliens - 2 hives. Marines should have HMG and possibly HA, not to mention siege capability. More than adequate to handle Fades if used properly.
Aliens - 3 hives. Onos, Bile Bomb and Spore Cloud. Dangerous, yes, but at this point it becomes crucial for Marines to take out a hive to eliminate these things. Jetpacks, grenade launchers and siege warfare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are trying to tell me is........you can get ha/hmg in under 10 minutes?
LOL.
The only thing that could make it unfair is putting like 7 or 8 defence chamber so the fade them be heal so fast that they wont die. You can they it down with siege but it cost a lot.
The most important thing is to not BACK up in the base and hide when you see a fade, it's to run after him and shoot him. If you try to camp or hide you will get raped by splash domage.
You guys keep saying that by the time aliens have two hives, marines have HMGS and HA. NOT TRUE.
Basically, for marines to get any standing res points, they always need to be guarded by turrets. Since the res/tf/turret combo costs 80+, it takes about five minutes just to pay itself off, considering some skulks didn't destroy the TF. By this time Aliens should have two hives. No way are marines gonna have HMG and HA for everyone by now. An HMG+HA costs 50+, fades only cost 44. Plus, fades get regen for a measly cost of 2, HA's need a welder which costs 12, plus someone intelligent to weld them.
How can you guys say it's balanced when aliens most always win?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That ... depends on the size of the marine team. In a 4v4 game, the marines have too few resources and a very hard to time get those HA/HMG's up. In a 16v16, resources are plentiful and they can have started the research for HA/HMG/MT within 3 minutes. In between, they can get it in time but it can be quite hard.
Read more about it in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18081' target='_blank'>this article</a>. Check out the spreadsheet for the details, it can be quite illuminating.
i think its unbalanced in that it is easier for aliens to heal.