Watching the streams of some of the best players in pub I've never seen so many overshots and spray and pray from "the best" players, it's obvious the immersion is hindering the game play in spades when people investing 1000+ hours at the top of the pile still can't reliably shoot down 3-4 skulks per LMG mag and pick off 2 skulks with a pistol, while that wasn't possible 100% of the time in NS1 it certainly wasn't unusual to see the better shooters pull these feats off in pubs/scrims all the time, much like 1 person in CS spraying down 4-5 people in a rush on 1 mag, clutch plays don't exist in NS2.
I was thinking about that recently. I remember back when we were scrimming torment in NS1 that we saw frequently one LMG gun down 3-4 skulks with 1 lmg clip + 1 pistol. I did a quick look up of recent matches and saw 1 (!!) 3 skulks kill ( and one skulk was badly damaged ). 2 skulks for one marine is quite exceptional.
I've often felt like alien vision is a must, I turn it on all the time because without it the marines blend in too well and I get pistol sniped from across the map because I didn't see a marine crouching. I would like to see alien vision only be 'useful' to aliens in dark rooms, but then in well lit rooms it is too blinding. Of course the marine model would have to stand out a little better in well lit rooms to compensate. But I agree with Robby that having to use alien vision 24/7 to be effective is kinda lame, I get sick of staring at blue walls until an orange man appears.
As for aim, I am of moderate FPS aim with a long history of gaming, I was good enough to compete but not good enough to ever win lol.. I feel like NS2 marines benefit more from precise aim, while aliens benefit more from someone with a very high mouse sensitivity who can keep track of their target while going all nutty on the keyboard, jumping off every wall, ceiling etc while timing it so every bite is a hit. This I have a lot of trouble with as my hand / eye coordination is just not fast enough.
So, Robby, I would say marines benefit more from precise aim, while aliens benefit more from a fast eye and fast twitch reflexes. It sounds like your success in UT was more so due to your fast twitch reflexes which explains why you do well with a skulk. Obviously accurate aim is important with aliens as well but its much more forgiving since you do not need to perfectly center the aimer on the marine, just get close.
The advantage from alien vision is fine since aliens generally needs to be in your face to be able to deal any damage anyway. Now if marines had something like alien vision, that would be nuts.
I'd love to have more options for alien vision, specifically disabling the dark green coloring and keeping only the highlights, much like the NS1 alien vision. When you first start playing NS2 and it gets dark, you use the alien vision it stands out as a really cool effect. After a while you realize alien vision isn't just for dark rooms, it's useful everywhere and should be used all the time. Unfortunately now the next and last realization will be how boring the environment looks and the effect is getting fatiguing, but you're at a disadvantage if you turn it off.
As of now the only reason you would turn it off is when you get tired of how it makes the game look. I find myself turning it off between battles when I expect no enemies only, and for absolutely no other reason than getting to see the game with textures and lightening instead of just a shader.
It seems to have a bit of an identity crisis. Is alien vision supposed to be for pitch black rooms only, something you experience so seldom the cool effect is justified, would stay "fresh" and never used long enough to be annoying, or is it meant to be used for more than that? If so, the current effect is just too intrusive.
Aiming in FPS games has never been the greatest skill that was needed. I would say Awareness of surroundings has always been the greatest skill that was needed in FPS games, even the older ones, or at least complementary to Aiming, so you needed both equally.
This is especially true in some games more than others, especially NS2.
It's also funny that you rank yourself as used to being one of the best "aimers" in all of EU when you played a game that had a very small competition base.
The reason you dont see 3-4 skulk kills by a single marine in NS2 is soley because of the completely broken and retarded movement system that skulks have currently. Being able to leap and spin around a marine makes absolutely 0 sense. Honestly skulks are perfectly fine to see, and marines with or without alien vision. The larger problem here is really gorge spit and other completely pointless vision blocking mechanics, which serve only to limit marine effectiveness in frustrating and uneeded ways. Aliens should win engagements through numbers, lifeforms and superior play through movement and teamwork. Not by abusing blinding mechanics with gorge spit and cyst rupture.
Of course if you bring that up people say that gorge spit and cyst rupture add skill, *REMOVED.* Be polite. -Talesin
I feel that aiming in FPS is the greatest skill, otherwise, aimbots would not be a problem.
Back in the early CS and NS1 v1.xx days (i.e. pre-Steam), I tested out several aimbots on private servers so I knew what to look for when spectating potential "hackers" and therefore be able to keep my public servers clean of hackers. I would literally just walk into a room without any tactical movement or positional regard and still be able to make a substantial difference to both my personal (i.e. K:D) and team's success.
I have a friend with high pure aiming skills (the kind that I have personally witnessed going to a LAN with on a completely different setup from his home computer) who could no-zoom AWP/scout in CS and still get a unreal high number of connects/kills. Some people just have an uncanny to aim/center the screen on targets -- it's almost like an aimbot. Needless to say he does extremely well in any FPS game.
I agree that "predictive" aiming (including awareness of surroundings, and tactical movement and positioning) are extremely important as well, and can indeed make a difference in FPS games... but in my honest opinion, based on aimbots and friends who can actually aim, aiming is indeed the greater factor for FPS games.
Confirmed for: "If the shoe fits..." I don't understand why people who like clear colors, easy to recognize targets, and "aim above all" in FPS games have chosen to play NS2 anyway. From all multiplayer shooters I know, NS2 with its RTS part and strong focus on immersion is farthest away from Q3A than any other game. And I love NS2 exactly because of that. But who cares, I'm only a pub-scrub. But you, instead of choosing a game that matches your preferences, constantly lament about NS2 being to immerse and vision-obstructing.
Really, it's ok if you don't like immerse games. But haven't you thought 1 minute about choosing the right game for your preference? Instead of abusing the "Flag" function of the forum, because you simply disagree with a person or are not capable of admitting that you have simply chosen wrong? Very sad, had thought better of some of you.
A big part of this is obviously NS1. You can't pump out one of the best and most demanding arcade shooters the world has ever seen and then expect people not to be surprised/disappointed when that spirit isn't carried forward for the sequel. I don't think people quite expected such a radical emphasis on realimmersionfeelism, especially when hearing commitments to other (often contrary) goals. It's amazing to have watched immersion trump gameplay in the situations it has and I often wonder why people like yourself seek it in a multiplayer game (my guess is that you don't play it enough for it to wear off, which it invariably does when you realise the game is so much more). I can only imagine this is a business decision with the aim of attracting a high volume of initial "wow" sales. Another factor is that the concept in the NS franchise is so damn good. There's nowhere else to go if you genuinely love the melee/ranged rts/fps hybrid, irrespective of your opinions on what level of skill should be required.
Thanks. This explains it. But I wouldn't say that NS1 tried to be an arcade shooter. The technology at this time wasn't simply this advanced to make it immerse at todays standards. I don't believe that Flayra would change his dreams for this game for marketing purposes. At least not for one, that would damage his idea of the game. If we would had the technology of now back when NS1 came to public, I think it would be as immerse as it is now.
Another factor is that the concept in the NS franchise is so damn good. There's nowhere else to go if you genuinely love the melee/ranged rts/fps hybrid, irrespective of your opinions on what level of skill should be required.
@_Necro_
You're more optimistic about motivations than I am I guess - I find that it's only in the context of marketability or a "that sounds cool" mindset that I can justify certain decisions. I can criticise most of the industry in a similar vein though so it's just that I find it a shame that my beloved game has fallen foul to this trend. I really hoped NS1 would build on things other than immersion but that's pretty much the only core improvement I can think of for NS2 unfortunately.
I actually agree that Flayra would have made NS1 more immersive but my personal opinion is that NS1 probably benefited from the lack thereof in the long run. Sometimes I wonder whether he brilliantly designed the concept but accidentallly designed the game . I think there's a really big scary gulf between what the residents of NS1 thought was fantastic about the game and what Flayra did - regretfully, the evidence of that can be found in NS2.
Sometime I try to play without alien vision, then I remember that I want to have fun and not totally lose track of the enemy whenever I magically phase through them. Although hivesight goes a long way to making alien vision not necessary.
I agree that "predictive" aiming (including awareness of surroundings, and tactical movement and positioning) are extremely important as well, and can indeed make a difference in FPS games... but in my honest opinion, based on aimbots and friends who can actually aim, aiming is indeed the greater factor for FPS games.
You should have tried your aimbots in Team Fortress Classic (or to a lesser extent Team Fortress 2), aimbotters would get stomped hard, aimbotting in those games provide very little advantage. Aiming in those games was not as good as the other skills you needed. Hell in TFC, the Scout class required no shooting whatsoever to be incredible. (my competitive background was from playing in top clans in TFC).
What does this mean? It means that how advantageous having good aim is, all depends on the game itself.
How about seeing a marine against a building (or hive)? Both are the same bright orange, you are better off using normal vision to spot the marine.
Alien vision is better like 95% of the time, but normal vision is still useful enough that no one would want them to take it away entirely either, so it's not completely obsolete.
Again, It's not a problem for me.
I could see it affecting colour blind people.
Totally can't see that marine right in front of the com station.
Blends right in.
Man, that marine's knee sure looks like a skulk.
That is nowhere near the most crowded screen this game offers. I sometimes turn alien vision off in order to see better during final pushes too. I also turn it off as a quick way to see if the power is down or not.
What if the game included a thermal shielded suit that marines could purchase at the armory to make them invisible to all aliens using heat vision? It worked for Arnold in Predator. Marines could have their own version of camo.
That is nowhere near the most crowded screen this game offers. I sometimes turn alien vision off in order to see better during final pushes too. I also turn it off as a quick way to see if the power is down or not.
What if the game included a thermal shielded suit that marines could purchase at the armory to make them invisible to all aliens using heat vision? It worked for Arnold in Predator. Marines could have their own version of camo.
Everyone would buy it, and alien vision would be useless. Seems sort of unbalanced, just a little.
Dont see how thats rude, I didnt call anyone out specifically.. *REMOVED.* Insults do not need to be directed, to be subject to moderational action. If you would like to dispute a Mod action, do it via PM. -Talesin
I rarely use alien vision which I know puts me in the minority, I have a really shitty computer and alien vision actually makes my FPS drop for some reason. When I use alien vision I actually find my depth perception is reduced, probably would improve if I used it more though. I suspect its a disadvantage for me but I have to live with it for now.
Interesting topic.
I'd say that you're focusing on the wrong end. Yes, alien vision is powerful but that isn't what makes skulks powerful.
I can personally play just as well without it and I'm not a bad skulk or a bad marine. Just as others have mentioned here as well.
When it comes to actually hitting as marine, here's the issue, yes. I'd first like to mention that hitting as a marine in this game is by design more difficult than most FPS games. FPS games is usually between equally sized targets that are mostly grounded and do not have such freedom of erratic movement. Even in fast games like quake the only erratic dodging takes place with WSAD on the ground. Strafe jumping and rocket jumps makes it much easier to predict trajectory and hit.
NS2 really, really opens up the gate for erratic movement. Skulks can not only dodge quickly by sidestepping, they can also jump in any direction from any surface, be it vertical or horizontal. To add further to this they have lots and lots of air control which messes up the ability to predict the trajectory mid air. One last factor sneaks in and that's the skulks ability to rotate it's model in mid air. All of these factors makes it way more difficult to predict a trajectory than in any other FPS game I've played.
I played quite some Quake Live and I wasn't too bad. I could compete with the best in clan arena which was my drug (game mode) of choice. In this game mode you had the most freedom of movement since you didn't take dmg from your own explosions. Despite this and despite quake most of the time feeling faster than NS2, I could most often keep a lightning gun accuracy of around 40%. This is the weapon that most like the LMG in NS2, pure tracing on a small dot. The other weapon that would resemble NS2 is the railgun, it resembles the shotgun since you'll use flick shots to catch skulks mid jump. When it comes to what actually transfers, the flick shots still feel fine. It's slightly harder in NS2 because of the aforementioned erratic movement even mid air but it works fine. Any easier and the SG would be OP.
The lmg though... The aim transfers, but it significantly drops in actual accuracy. 40% LMG accuracy would absolutelly beast in NS2. The crazy erratic movement possible in NS2 makes this damn near impossible though. It's basically a lot up to the skulk instead of up to the aimer. A bad skulk is easy to trace and kill within a second, a good skulk and you'll have to conserve your firing until he's basically on top of you a lot of the times (except for some dmg on the way in).
I think the biggest thing that would increase marine power and ease of use (also enjoyment and less frustration, not making it easy to play) would be to somehow tone down this ability for skulks to become almost completelly erratic whilst still moving towards you. I personally can't come up with a perfect fix for this. Perhaps making it so that the skulk model can't twist and turn as much mid air would solve a lot of it. I just don't know how it would be implemented without changing the ability to look and move around properly as the skulk. I'm not a programmer but I do know my FPSes. I hope the devs look into this instead of changing more values.
Comments
I was thinking about that recently. I remember back when we were scrimming torment in NS1 that we saw frequently one LMG gun down 3-4 skulks with 1 lmg clip + 1 pistol. I did a quick look up of recent matches and saw 1 (!!) 3 skulks kill ( and one skulk was badly damaged ). 2 skulks for one marine is quite exceptional.
As for aim, I am of moderate FPS aim with a long history of gaming, I was good enough to compete but not good enough to ever win lol.. I feel like NS2 marines benefit more from precise aim, while aliens benefit more from someone with a very high mouse sensitivity who can keep track of their target while going all nutty on the keyboard, jumping off every wall, ceiling etc while timing it so every bite is a hit. This I have a lot of trouble with as my hand / eye coordination is just not fast enough.
So, Robby, I would say marines benefit more from precise aim, while aliens benefit more from a fast eye and fast twitch reflexes. It sounds like your success in UT was more so due to your fast twitch reflexes which explains why you do well with a skulk. Obviously accurate aim is important with aliens as well but its much more forgiving since you do not need to perfectly center the aimer on the marine, just get close.
I'd love to have more options for alien vision, specifically disabling the dark green coloring and keeping only the highlights, much like the NS1 alien vision. When you first start playing NS2 and it gets dark, you use the alien vision it stands out as a really cool effect. After a while you realize alien vision isn't just for dark rooms, it's useful everywhere and should be used all the time. Unfortunately now the next and last realization will be how boring the environment looks and the effect is getting fatiguing, but you're at a disadvantage if you turn it off.
As of now the only reason you would turn it off is when you get tired of how it makes the game look. I find myself turning it off between battles when I expect no enemies only, and for absolutely no other reason than getting to see the game with textures and lightening instead of just a shader.
It seems to have a bit of an identity crisis. Is alien vision supposed to be for pitch black rooms only, something you experience so seldom the cool effect is justified, would stay "fresh" and never used long enough to be annoying, or is it meant to be used for more than that? If so, the current effect is just too intrusive.
This is especially true in some games more than others, especially NS2.
It's also funny that you rank yourself as used to being one of the best "aimers" in all of EU when you played a game that had a very small competition base.
Of course if you bring that up people say that gorge spit and cyst rupture add skill, *REMOVED.* Be polite. -Talesin
Back in the early CS and NS1 v1.xx days (i.e. pre-Steam), I tested out several aimbots on private servers so I knew what to look for when spectating potential "hackers" and therefore be able to keep my public servers clean of hackers. I would literally just walk into a room without any tactical movement or positional regard and still be able to make a substantial difference to both my personal (i.e. K:D) and team's success.
I have a friend with high pure aiming skills (the kind that I have personally witnessed going to a LAN with on a completely different setup from his home computer) who could no-zoom AWP/scout in CS and still get a unreal high number of connects/kills. Some people just have an uncanny to aim/center the screen on targets -- it's almost like an aimbot. Needless to say he does extremely well in any FPS game.
I agree that "predictive" aiming (including awareness of surroundings, and tactical movement and positioning) are extremely important as well, and can indeed make a difference in FPS games... but in my honest opinion, based on aimbots and friends who can actually aim, aiming is indeed the greater factor for FPS games.
http://www.s2games.com/savage/
I know that's not the norm, but I actually play worse with it on.
You're more optimistic about motivations than I am I guess - I find that it's only in the context of marketability or a "that sounds cool" mindset that I can justify certain decisions. I can criticise most of the industry in a similar vein though so it's just that I find it a shame that my beloved game has fallen foul to this trend. I really hoped NS1 would build on things other than immersion but that's pretty much the only core improvement I can think of for NS2 unfortunately.
I actually agree that Flayra would have made NS1 more immersive but my personal opinion is that NS1 probably benefited from the lack thereof in the long run. Sometimes I wonder whether he brilliantly designed the concept but accidentallly designed the game
You should have tried your aimbots in Team Fortress Classic (or to a lesser extent Team Fortress 2), aimbotters would get stomped hard, aimbotting in those games provide very little advantage. Aiming in those games was not as good as the other skills you needed. Hell in TFC, the Scout class required no shooting whatsoever to be incredible. (my competitive background was from playing in top clans in TFC).
What does this mean? It means that how advantageous having good aim is, all depends on the game itself.
Totally can't see that marine right in front of the com station.
Blends right in.
Man, that marine's knee sure looks like a skulk.
What if the game included a thermal shielded suit that marines could purchase at the armory to make them invisible to all aliens using heat vision? It worked for Arnold in Predator. Marines could have their own version of camo.
Kinda hard to take SS's in the middle of the game, you know, without dying.
Everyone would buy it, and alien vision would be useless. Seems sort of unbalanced, just a little.
I'd say that you're focusing on the wrong end. Yes, alien vision is powerful but that isn't what makes skulks powerful.
I can personally play just as well without it and I'm not a bad skulk or a bad marine. Just as others have mentioned here as well.
When it comes to actually hitting as marine, here's the issue, yes. I'd first like to mention that hitting as a marine in this game is by design more difficult than most FPS games. FPS games is usually between equally sized targets that are mostly grounded and do not have such freedom of erratic movement. Even in fast games like quake the only erratic dodging takes place with WSAD on the ground. Strafe jumping and rocket jumps makes it much easier to predict trajectory and hit.
NS2 really, really opens up the gate for erratic movement. Skulks can not only dodge quickly by sidestepping, they can also jump in any direction from any surface, be it vertical or horizontal. To add further to this they have lots and lots of air control which messes up the ability to predict the trajectory mid air. One last factor sneaks in and that's the skulks ability to rotate it's model in mid air. All of these factors makes it way more difficult to predict a trajectory than in any other FPS game I've played.
I played quite some Quake Live and I wasn't too bad. I could compete with the best in clan arena which was my drug (game mode) of choice. In this game mode you had the most freedom of movement since you didn't take dmg from your own explosions. Despite this and despite quake most of the time feeling faster than NS2, I could most often keep a lightning gun accuracy of around 40%. This is the weapon that most like the LMG in NS2, pure tracing on a small dot. The other weapon that would resemble NS2 is the railgun, it resembles the shotgun since you'll use flick shots to catch skulks mid jump. When it comes to what actually transfers, the flick shots still feel fine. It's slightly harder in NS2 because of the aforementioned erratic movement even mid air but it works fine. Any easier and the SG would be OP.
The lmg though... The aim transfers, but it significantly drops in actual accuracy. 40% LMG accuracy would absolutelly beast in NS2. The crazy erratic movement possible in NS2 makes this damn near impossible though. It's basically a lot up to the skulk instead of up to the aimer. A bad skulk is easy to trace and kill within a second, a good skulk and you'll have to conserve your firing until he's basically on top of you a lot of the times (except for some dmg on the way in).
I think the biggest thing that would increase marine power and ease of use (also enjoyment and less frustration, not making it easy to play) would be to somehow tone down this ability for skulks to become almost completelly erratic whilst still moving towards you. I personally can't come up with a perfect fix for this. Perhaps making it so that the skulk model can't twist and turn as much mid air would solve a lot of it. I just don't know how it would be implemented without changing the ability to look and move around properly as the skulk. I'm not a programmer but I do know my FPSes. I hope the devs look into this instead of changing more values.