Babblers, Babblers, Babblers

TimariusTimarius Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171220Members
edited March 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
Let's talk about them.

For the future:
kBabblerPheromoneEnergyCost = 7
kBabblerDamage = 10

kBabblerCost = 1
kBabblerEggBuildTime = 8
kNumBabblerEggsPerGorge = 3
kNumBabblersPerEgg = 3

kBabblerHealth = 30	kBabblerArmor = 5	kBabblerPointValue = 0
kBabblerEggHealth = 300	kBabblerEggArmor = 0	kBabblerEggPointValue = 0

local kTargetSearchRange = 12
local kAttackRate = 0.37
local kLifeTime = 120

local kBabblerClingDuration = 20

BabblerClingMixin.networkVars =
{
    numBabblers = "integer (0 to 6)"
}

local kMinJumpDistance = 6
local kBabblerRunSpeed = 5
local kVerticalJumpForce = 6
local kMaxJumpForce = 15
local kMinJumpForce = 5

The rest of it is AI and mass.

To sum this data up for those who either don't like to read code or cannot, here's the data again.

Babblers have 30 health, 5 armor, do 10 damage a hit, attack at a rate of one attack per 0.37th of a second, live for 120 seconds (two minutes), and one Gorge can have 9 of them (3 eggs) at a time. Six Babblers can attach to one teammate at a time, and they will leave their death ride after 20 seconds. Their speed is 0.9 higher than a Gorge (about the speed of a Skulk), and they bounce around at randomized heights.

On paper, that means you have 270 health, 45 armor, (360 effective health against normal, 315 against heavy, and 450 against light) and 90 damage worth of Babblers ready to cause trouble.

The health of the babbler is amazing when used as armor as they quite literally take the bullets for their pony ride of doom (piggy back ride of doom, if you prefer that). That's 4 rounds or more extra for your Skulky friends during the early game (which is kind of important seeing as they move a bit slower now). That's an entire shotgun blast for an Onos, or most of it. For a Fade, it could mean life and death in engagements, and let's not start on the Lerk [I've got problems with that smoke trail on spikes].

Babblers simply work wonders when used as cheap meat shields. But as support to keep the adorable little Gorgies alive, well... they fall short. The problem mainly lies with server performance taking a hit (at least on servers I frequent) since the patch. Occasionally their little AI brains derp out and they have no idea there's an enemy in the room, opting instead to bounce in place and hug each other. While adorable, this leaves the Gorge in question a lot more vulnerable when nine little buggers could be chomping on some toes while the Gorge blinds the enemy.

But how do they stack against a base? Undefended, well... let's measure that DPS! They'll get in 2.7 bites in a second. Rather than simplifying that, let's go ahead and get that DPS! 10*2.7 means 27 DPS for each of them. That means nine of them will do 243DPS.

Nine Babblers would munch an A2 marine down instantly (assuming they ever got to their target and proceeded to munch). It also means they'll wreck havoc on bases (again, assuming they attack a building together and don't wander off, clicking their song of... well, derpiness [They're not the brightest tools in the Kharaa arsenal]).

So, on paper, they're damn good assault units and damn good base wreckers.

Unfortunately, in practice, Babblers used to attack kind of make a huge mess as they pop everywhere far from any would be targets, and usually too quickly for a Skulk to move into engagement range. Nevermind if a shotgun blast makes its way down a corridor, as those Babblers sure won't seem to have that much health.

So. Babblers.

TL;DR - I've made my case here based on numbers and experience [Albeit, not much experience (the patch just landed today, after all)]. I don't feel Babblers are worthwhile unless they are used to defend your allies. Specifically, to cover the deficit left by the changes to Skulk movement. Moreover, since you only get maximum effectiveness from six Babblers as defensive units (bit of a problem with the pheromone ball once you've attached them) at a time, I feel that it's never a good idea to spend the rest for 9 of them at a time.

Of course, I don't advocate a buff to them until we've had more time to play around with them. What I'd rather see is server performance optimizations and other changes that have been called for in the past (which I'll not name to hopefully prevent flames from rising).

My fellow Natural Selection 2 players, I made this thread and did my homework so I could invite discussion. How do you folk feel about Babblers? Let's talk!

EDIT - Added in Babbler speed and jump speed.
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Comments

  • FappuchinoFappuchino Join Date: 2012-10-10 Member: 162008Members
    No talking about buffs yet (like you said)! I remember I was underwhelmed by Hydras, until I saw what certain Gorges could do if they set up clogs smartly, and hunkered down for defense. I suspect a good combination of all of the Gorge's skills will determine how useful they can be.
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    Eh. The last few games I played, there were 2-4 Gorges who would rush down a hallway, spraying Babblers everywhere. We couldn't push past them, and it was fairly annoying.
  • TimariusTimarius Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171220Members
    Kopikat wrote: »
    Eh. The last few games I played, there were 2-4 Gorges who would rush down a hallway, spraying Babblers everywhere. We couldn't push past them, and it was fairly annoying.

    There's a case I didn't think of. I haven't seen Gorges actually get together and use a horde of Babblers like that. Mostly just sitting in hives, contemplating where their hydras should go and whether they should spray that hive.

    Were shotguns in play, or any other tech?

  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    Babblers don't seem able to target anything so they are pretty useless there. On defenses sometimes they make it so you can't bite, so thats pretty bad too. Maybe if they worked properly they would be imba , but who knows for now.
  • ChalarieChalarie Join Date: 2012-05-03 Member: 151459Members
    I have found, so far, that if a marine moves at all while babblers are chasing them the babblers will completely and utterly do nothing. This means that if a marine just walks right through the babblers they have nothing to worry about. I don't have a consensus on babblers just yet, since we did JUST get them, but something tells me they will take some further tweaking before I will be happy.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    There seems to be a bug where once you get babblers on you, your bait ball drops at your feet.
  • TimariusTimarius Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171220Members
    moultano wrote: »
    There seems to be a bug where once you get babblers on you, your bait ball drops at your feet.

    That one I did see, a lot. If a Babbler attaches close to your face, you're unable to Bile Bomb or use the Pheromone Ball, and it was mentioned earlier that it blocks bites, too.

    Now that hurts their defensive capabilities.
  • RainyCaturdayRainyCaturday Join Date: 2013-02-19 Member: 183202Members
    edited March 2013
    Babblers would be so amazing and fun... if they actually worked like advertised..

    Babbler AI is GARBAGE ( sorry but it really is ) as they don't stick with the gorge, often trailing behind. Not to mention that actually throwing a Bait Ball is always lagged and by the time it comes out of your mouth, your target has moved or your babblers wont even follow where the ball goes.

    I think all the babbler AI and position should be loosey handled by the server and run mostly on the client, having the server sync to the client. This way babblers aren't affected by network and on the clients screen, the babblers perform much more responsively. I don't think we really have to worry about babbler hacks..
    Just an idea, no real knowledge how Babblers work over network

    On to the armor.. 20 seconds is not long enough when you consider that actually getting the babblers to attach to a player is extremely laggy and unresponsive. Even if the player stands still, you throw your bait ball and it hits the player, the babblers will warp around and lunge at the players previous position if he moves a bit and completely not attach themselves, often running off into nowhere. So you try to attach and the player gets hit with the ball, you both think "Ok the ball hit the babblers will attach" but they don't so he runs off with no babblers or like 2 of them.

    Every time I have thrown my bait ball while assaulting a base, my babblers are nowhere to be seen, I turn around and they are halfway down the hallway wondering where I went.

    But Babblers are new, I'm sure UWE will address these issues and make them as good as they should be. As for the actual Babbler and it's abilities.. I LOVE THEM
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    edited March 2013
    Timarius wrote: »
    Kopikat wrote: »
    Eh. The last few games I played, there were 2-4 Gorges who would rush down a hallway, spraying Babblers everywhere. We couldn't push past them, and it was fairly annoying.

    There's a case I didn't think of. I haven't seen Gorges actually get together and use a horde of Babblers like that. Mostly just sitting in hives, contemplating where their hydras should go and whether they should spray that hive.

    Were shotguns in play, or any other tech?

    W2/A2 (I think), and we had a Shotgun and two welders (not that it matters) with us.

    I think the flamethrower would have worked, but sadly we didn't have 'em. Just a constant stream of babblers, gorges, and skulks with a clot wall preventing us from really going anywhere.

    Edit: This was on the path between Cafe and Bar.
  • SopsSops Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17894Members, Constellation
    It seems that babblers can not go through gorge tunnels, which is weird.
  • SampsonSampson Join Date: 2012-01-06 Member: 139769Members
    babblers are terrible. can't follow u... and yay, one does 10 dmg then u die!
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    Updated the Babbler page for you folks, but most of the points are covered by OP already.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    they can if you put them on you
    Anyway, babblers are useless until pathing/ai is fixed (they don't attack marines, and can't follow you in most cases)
  • SampsonSampson Join Date: 2012-01-06 Member: 139769Members
    put in a feature that completely doesn't work while performance is still shit. gl
  • agallochagalloch Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168650Members
    How large are the babbler's hitboxes?
  • RainyCaturdayRainyCaturday Join Date: 2013-02-19 Member: 183202Members
    edited March 2013
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited March 2013
    You can easily throw the ball off a wall onto yourself and if you built them anywhere near you they'll be on your back and this all happens in less than 2 .5 seconds. That's not bad at all for setting up hundreds of hp points worth of armor that lasts for 20 seconds..

    You can see how many are on you at the bottom left of the screen.

    They are slow.. that's really their one downside and the thing I've been very very verbal about internally (almost annoyingly hehe)
    This leads to not connecting attacks, which can make damage numbers irrelevant, missing mounting on moving players, and of course not being able to keep up like in the cute trailer intro and in actual games.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    When I was using them, they seemed to be fairly useful as armor. I didn't quite understand why they kept jumping off the lerk i was putting them on, but now that i know they only stay on for 20 seconds it all makes much more sense.
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Babblers will follow the bait ball well, if you throw it. They wont follow you out of their own curiosity currently. Just keep throwing the ball to get them to go where you want to.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    They're pretty useless as far as I could tell, except for like minor defensive enhancement. I really don't see anybody bothering with them any-more once the novelty wears off, they're far too unconvincing for that. I'd rather they be more expensive and slightly more powerful so the gorge has an even better but actual useful p.res sink.

  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    I love the babbler model and concept. The execution leaves a little to be desired.

    Babblers are useless at attacking marines. If they even bother to try and attack a marine, one of them might do 10 damage, then give up and not attack again. The others like to run back and forth between where I told them to go and myself.

    The babbler ball is buggy too. Sometimes it will just pop as soon as I throw it, and the babblers stick to me. I have no idea how to make them get off the gorge. If I throw the ball in the direction of a marine, the babblers will run to the ball, then sorta do nothing. So there's no way to effectively send them to attack, or to recall them.

    Best use I found for them was attacking structures. Throw the ball at a marine structure and eventually the babblers will all eventually surround it and start doing damage.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    If you attach them to someone they also seem to just fall off after a while.

    I love the concept too, but like you said, the execution definitely needs some work.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    1. smoke on lerk/hydra spikes is amazing... i got bored on refinery hiding in the shadows holding right-click for the entire game and forcing loads of scans.

    2. i can't speak for the babbler AI, but the babbler body-armour is amazing... it's effectively a double-carapace upgrade. if babbler attack was deadly to marines it could be overpowered.
  • GISPGISP Battle Gorge Denmark Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
    Adorable little buggers :x
  • KioKio Join Date: 2013-03-01 Member: 183501Members
    Babblers are almost completely useless in vents, I tried to set up and ambush but they just got stuck and didn't move at all. :(
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    The babbler ball should not bounce off babblers. I often have to try jumping various ways to get the damn thing thrown where I want, other times it bounces off a babbler, hits my gorge, and the babblers stick to me.

    Yes, remove the 2 minute limit. I can't see the point. It takes me that long to get 9 babblers to do something.
  • Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
    Babblers suck, when placed on yourself or someone else they have a good chance to block your attacks. Oh and the new range on the bile bombs will kill the aliens.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
    edited March 2013
    I didn't quite understand why they kept jumping off the lerk

    They're just afraid of height. :x
  • AngeluszAngelusz Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    Currently, babblers behave like adorable, retarded cousins of the skulk. Pretty much the way they were in NS1. There has been talk of perhaps giving them a more aggressive edge, comparable to Snarks in Half Life. Nothing solid though. I'm sure they'll get tweaked a bit, currently they're sometimes a bit too retarded. ^^
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