I think they nerfed camo in a way that it is almost useless now, and I don't see many comms going shade hive first anymore, not even in pubs.
But some tweaks may change that. Here is my suggestion:
* 30%-50% invisibility in combat and moving at full speed (more difficult to track)
* No changes in current values while standing still and moving slowly
Nobody uses camo after the change so I don't have any real experience fighting against it, so I may be mistaken, but I think you lose camo completely if you get shot, the same way you lose regen and celerity in combat. The problem seems to me to be not so much that near invisibility is useless in and of itself, but that rather it is useless when you can follow up a fleeting glance with a bullet that completely negates the effect.
People using cheat skins/video settings is a technical problem that can probably be addressed to a satisfactory level, but as long as a player can shoot the camo away the only way it will be viable is if it doesn't alert the enemy in any way. I'd consider making the partial visibility effect permanent even while moving fast and taking damage. I'd also look at connecting its effectiveness to light levels.
I have not seen this brought up (apologies to whomever may have already).
There is more than just effect that the Upgrades have on gameplay, but the associated chambers and their innate abilities, as well. We should all know them... Crag (heal), Shift ("red bull", eggs), Shade (cloak). Each have their benefits and neither one as a field support chamber is necessarily worse than the other. They each have their circumstances and can be effective with a knowledgeable team. But, here's the major issue that can make one of these chambers stronger/weaker than the other.
Back in the days of NS1 we had the Defense (Crag), Movement (Shift), and Sensory (Shade) Chambers that provided the same perk (for the most part*). The major difference between NS1 Chambers and the NS2 counterparts are the restrictions on placement.
NS2 structures must be placed upon infestation. This is contrary to the ways of NS1 where a Sensory Chamber, for example, could be placed in a strategic position within the map boundaries. This could lead to excellent cloak coverage to the point that is became difficult for marines to venture too far from base. The aliens would maintain a high level of map control, which would often follow a fast second hive (not just because their was a sense of urgency to get Celerity or Carapace, but the increase resource flow from the controlled Resource Towers). But, I don't believe that you can see good EARLY cloak coverage in NS2 because of the infestation restrictions.
So what's the point?
The game is heavily based on map control. Both the Crag and Shift are useful in maintaining alien presence on the field. This is not reliant on these chambers being at the fore-front of battle. They still provide a high level of support even when midway from the hive and the front lines. The Shade on the other hand is only effective where the battle is... in most cases, the front lines. Placing chambers in the front lines is more costly due to more cysts, combat attrition, and (usually) a wider area for coverage (ex. Crags in Computer Lab can support aliens from any of the three tech points it neighbors, whereas a Shade would have to be placed in each area to be supportive).
Considering the value of the chambers in addition to the upgrade choices makes it clear why Shade is hardly a viable first hive option, but rather one that is for goofing around with.
My opinion is that the game should continue in its direction to make all tech paths viable.
* Movement Chambers allowed the instantaneous traveling from the Chamber to the closest hive -OR- hive recently damaged. Sensory chambers allowed the aliens to see marines through walls within the chamber's area of effect.
My opinion is that the game should continue in its direction to make all tech paths viable.
I agree, and so does Charlie. The problem has been that to make shade viable you need to give it some serious punch to allow an alien team survive without either carapace or celerity/adrenaline until third hive.
IIRC, wasn't focus was they added to sensory in NS1 to make it a viable path again?
My opinion is that the game should continue in its direction to make all tech paths viable.
I agree, and so does Charlie. The problem has been that to make shade viable you need to give it some serious punch to allow an alien team survive without either carapace or celerity/adrenaline until third hive.
IIRC, wasn't focus was they added to sensory in NS1 to make it a viable path again?
More to make all alien lifeforms viable late game (as pretty much negated armour upgrades) than to make shade hive viable.
I think if the current camo-effect while moving would be always on (even when attacking or being attacked or moving at full speed), it could work.
I also miss the claustrophobic ability of the matured shade to create hallucinations to nearby marines. (No, not those pink alines. I'm talking about random bite-sounds a scary "whoooo" and skulks appearing and disappearing in front of you.) The effect was really cool, but sadly got removed in beta for the hallucinations we have now. Because of the "sensoric-deprevation is bad in multiplayer games" crowd.
Why not introduce it again as an upgrade? It would give aliens a real combat advantage around shades, create another needed t-res sink for the com and it was really f****in scary.
Thinking more about it, you could have two ways of upgrading for every alien building:
Shade: Cloaks nearby buildings OR creates hallucinations for nearby marines.
Craig: Heals OR releases an babblerswarm to nearby marines.
Shift: Creates eggs OR regenerates alien energy.
Probably, there would be some differentiation in the building models needed. Maybe another color would be enough.
The effect was really cool, but sadly got removed in beta for the hallucinations we have now. Because of the "sensoric-deprevation is bad in multiplayer games" crowd.
I think it might also of been because the shade seemingly began to do the opposite of what it was meant to. Instead of concealing the position of itself and other alien units, it clearly highlighted its presence.
Sure. That's because it would be good to have the option of 2 upgrade directions per shade. So you can use it to either hide stuff, or to give a combat advantage. More strategy for the kham, YAY!
In the current balance mod iteration, Sewlek merged Camouflage and Silence into one upgrade called "Phantom". I am intrigued to see how it plays out and whether or not it will eventually be taken over into the default game.
Other abilities have been buffed there as well: Regeneration works in combat, Celerity stays active in combat too and increases the max speed by 1.5 m/s and Adrenaline does not only increase the energy pool but also the regeneration (both 10% per ability level).
While at first it seems like aliens got plenty of buffs in the balance mod and marines got some nerfs, marines also got some pretty strong buffs:
-Phase Gates can be built upon infestation.
-Only one Phase Gate needs to be powered for the entire network to be powered.
-Phase Gate HP and armor reduced.
-Flamethrowers disable alien structure abilities and destroy incoming Bile Bombs.
I really hope that most of those balance mod changes make it into the main game, since they seem to make stuff a lot more interesting and offer a new variety of strategies.
@CrushaK We have to get some people to play with the mod first, every time i go to join, the servers running ns2 bt are empty.
Which is too bad, I really want to play a full game with this mod and all the changes that Sewlek did.
If no one uses it, it might as well not be in the game. If they aren't going to make it viable, dump it and make something that is.
Or just add focus to it. Anyone who played NS1 really misses focus. A focus/carapace skulk would be viable. Hell, even a celerity/focus skulk would work. Bam! Shade upgrade instantly viable.
Have they given a reason they don't want to include focus?
What if the faster you moved with camouflage, the more distorted you became, but the "bigger" your life form became.
So if you were running around at normal speed with camouflage, you would be something like 80% invisible, but the visual size of your skulk would be doubled or even tripled. This bigger area also wouldn't always need to be positioned around the center of a skulk.
It would create a pretty disorienting affect of having a rather large object flying around a room. You would be quite aware of its presence, and be able to react accordingly, but shooting it accurately and reliably would prove difficult.
Can somebody with the inclination to do so please try the following:
Allow the skulk to move at full speed, while having 80% camouflage. Then get a friend to just observe you as you run around, and maybe try to shoot you. I'm really confident that it would be difficult to track.
I highly doubt that.
You can currently test this out yourself with a lerk, if you slow enough while flying.
If you're the sort of person who doesn't have problems seeing that shader effect in the first place (me) then like others have said, you might as well not be Camouflaged at all. Its not as subtle as that hidden mod, and plenty of people excel at shooting that thing down consistently.
I say (once again) allowing close to full speed movement (which would enable sound and give that tradeoff from silence) with the new transparent camo is the way to do it. Its at least *better* this way..
You can currently test this out yourself with a lerk, if you slow enough while flying.
The lerk can move around 25% of its maximum normal speed without decloaking. That is basically the same as the skulks camo-creeping speed, and would obviously impart no benefit over it. The problem is that the slow speed allows you to identify the distortion, and then shoot at the location where the distortion was, no tracking involved.
Fast moving targets require tracking. That is, you need to gauge their speed, facing and trajectory in order to predict their next position and shoot at that instead of where you currently see them. My theory is that the distortion affect would impact a marines ability to track a target.
You can currently test this out yourself with a lerk, if you slow enough while flying.
The lerk can move around 25% of its maximum normal speed without decloaking. That is basically the same as the skulks camo-creeping speed, and would obviously impart no benefit over it. The problem is that the slow speed allows you to identify the distortion, and then shoot at the location where the distortion was, no tracking involved.
Fast moving targets require tracking. That is, you need to gauge their speed, facing and trajectory in order to predict their next position and shoot at that instead of where you currently see them. My theory is that the distortion affect would impact a marines ability to track a target.
You don't have to track it, one bullet and the cloaking goes away. I don't think that's too much to ask. A shotgun would make it trivial.
You can currently test this out yourself with a lerk, if you slow enough while flying.
The lerk can move around 25% of its maximum normal speed without decloaking. That is basically the same as the skulks camo-creeping speed, and would obviously impart no benefit over it. The problem is that the slow speed allows you to identify the distortion, and then shoot at the location where the distortion was, no tracking involved.
Fast moving targets require tracking. That is, you need to gauge their speed, facing and trajectory in order to predict their next position and shoot at that instead of where you currently see them. My theory is that the distortion affect would impact a marines ability to track a target.
You don't have to track it, one bullet and the cloaking goes away. I don't think that's too much to ask. A shotgun would make it trivial.
Apparently a bullet won't make celerity go away any more, so why should it camouflage?
You can currently test this out yourself with a lerk, if you slow enough while flying.
The lerk can move around 25% of its maximum normal speed without decloaking. That is basically the same as the skulks camo-creeping speed, and would obviously impart no benefit over it. The problem is that the slow speed allows you to identify the distortion, and then shoot at the location where the distortion was, no tracking involved.
Fast moving targets require tracking. That is, you need to gauge their speed, facing and trajectory in order to predict their next position and shoot at that instead of where you currently see them. My theory is that the distortion affect would impact a marines ability to track a target.
You don't have to track it, one bullet and the cloaking goes away. I don't think that's too much to ask. A shotgun would make it trivial.
Apparently a bullet won't make celerity go away any more, so why should it camouflage?
Only in the balance mod, and there you have phantom: silence and current cloaking rolled into one. It's too early to say if this is OP yet, but it is damned fun to play. A couple of us played as fade with only this upgrade and it was awesome fun. A little hairy without carapace, but the movement more than makes up for that with the balance test fade
I think what strofix wrote could be an alternative to test for the "balance test" mod from @Sewlek
Camo wouldn't uncloak you at all. Upgrade camo and it is perma-on. You only get completely invisible when standing still, but can run at full speed with the distortion effect. This could really help to throw of marine aim a bit. (A bit, because it shouldn't become overpowered) Lets just try it plz.
before when you evolved into camo it made u walk when u move, keeping u camo'd
now it doesn't do that. ok so i press shift and it makes me walk, yet when i walk marines can still see me?
wtf did they do to camo
Made it terrible mechanically (game wise), but beautiful to look at. The fade out/in effect is extremely well done.
It can be made to work, but it's not very fun; might as well not use it.
It's all in how you use it. I played 12 games straight on aliens the other night and camo was an excellent tool to use but it needed to be tactfully done. Aliens shouldn't be able to run full speed at 100% inviso, that is just nonsense. Be more aware of your surroundings and you won't get killed. Worked for me and a few of my friends. We were extremely successful at not getting seen by marines and were able to take out many as well. I feel the camo is in a great spot right now.
In the current balance mod iteration, Sewlek merged Camouflage and Silence into one upgrade called "Phantom". I am intrigued to see how it plays out and whether or not it will eventually be taken over into the default game.
Other abilities have been buffed there as well: Regeneration works in combat, Celerity stays active in combat too and increases the max speed by 1.5 m/s and Adrenaline does not only increase the energy pool but also the regeneration (both 10% per ability level).
While at first it seems like aliens got plenty of buffs in the balance mod and marines got some nerfs, marines also got some pretty strong buffs:
-Phase Gates can be built upon infestation.
-Only one Phase Gate needs to be powered for the entire network to be powered.
-Phase Gate HP and armor reduced.
-Flamethrowers disable alien structure abilities and destroy incoming Bile Bombs.
I really hope that most of those balance mod changes make it into the main game, since they seem to make stuff a lot more interesting and offer a new variety of strategies.
Good changes all around. Combining camo with silence was a long thing coming if camo didn't say 100% invis. Now perhaps we can bring back focus and make shade hive a decent all around tech again.
Make camo fully cloak even while moving but require player activation and consume energy. Something on the order of one second of cloaking before running out of energy without adrenaline. This solves the retarded and infuriating "Sit at a chokepoint and wait for Marines to stumble into range" gameplay and turns it into something that actually requires player timing, judgment, energy management, etc.
Make camo fully cloak even while moving but require player activation and consume energy. Something on the order of one second of cloaking before running out of energy without adrenaline. This solves the retarded and infuriating "Sit at a chokepoint and wait for Marines to stumble into range" gameplay and turns it into something that actually requires player timing, judgment, energy management, etc.
I think the basic idea is that upgrades like this work automatically and require no activation or whatsoever. If we are going to allow abilities that require activation, I see cloaking as one of the least imaginative and interesting options available. The possibilities with activatables are almost unlimited.
It's all in how you use it. I played 12 games straight on aliens the other night and camo was an excellent tool to use but it needed to be tactfully done. Aliens shouldn't be able to run full speed at 100% inviso, that is just nonsense. Be more aware of your surroundings and you won't get killed. Worked for me and a few of my friends. We were extremely successful at not getting seen by marines and were able to take out many as well. I feel the camo is in a great spot right now.
I feel the same way. I don't even try to move closer marines using camo as my only way to stay hidden. Instead, I position myself so that marines run past/under me and there I am, right in their face without losing any hp, just like camo is intented to work. Great places to go, if you hear footsteps, is above a disabled power node or next to resource nozzle. Works like a charm.
I think the basic idea is that upgrades like this work automatically and require no activation or whatsoever. If we are going to allow abilities that require activation, I see cloaking as one of the least imaginative and interesting options available. The possibilities with activatables are almost unlimited.
I see your point, but in one sense, cloaking already requires activation since the Alien needs to be stationary. Cloaking is already the least imaginative and interesting option available anyways, I think my idea would at least be an improvement.
I think the basic idea is that upgrades like this work automatically and require no activation or whatsoever. If we are going to allow abilities that require activation, I see cloaking as one of the least imaginative and interesting options available. The possibilities with activatables are almost unlimited.
I see your point, but in one sense, cloaking already requires activation since the Alien needs to be stationary. Cloaking is already the least imaginative and interesting option available anyways, I think my idea would at least be an improvement.
I think design wise UWE is drawing the line on kind of 'passive' trigger that requires no additional buttons pressed or so. However, as you mentioned, we've already got one now and it's not exactly generating interesting gameplay.
All in all, I don't really know. Cloak is one of those upgrades I wouldn't put into the game in the first place unless I have a damn solid idea on how it blends in properly and positively contributes to the gameplay.
The cloak mechanic is like the children's game Redlight/Greenlight, where you can extend (skill dependent) in marine peripheral view, where before you were invisible, now you have to maintain a larger distance, or just be more inventive in your view-evasive stalking now that you are not fully invisible.
Cloak has become more of a finesse mechanic than before. It has a higher skill ceiling now, and is still a relatively new mechanic that should be explored. Surprised at the conclusive finality many forum goers have regarding this new mechanic.
Comments
But some tweaks may change that. Here is my suggestion:
* 30%-50% invisibility in combat and moving at full speed (more difficult to track)
* No changes in current values while standing still and moving slowly
People using cheat skins/video settings is a technical problem that can probably be addressed to a satisfactory level, but as long as a player can shoot the camo away the only way it will be viable is if it doesn't alert the enemy in any way. I'd consider making the partial visibility effect permanent even while moving fast and taking damage. I'd also look at connecting its effectiveness to light levels.
You want to play with 100% invisible moving enemy ? OP
Mother Nature dont love Human or Aliens >> its a fair update make game more balance
Game dev Unknow World studio are listening to community feed back on Youtube >> work hard to make new patch >> 100% agree and vote for their attitude
There is more than just effect that the Upgrades have on gameplay, but the associated chambers and their innate abilities, as well. We should all know them... Crag (heal), Shift ("red bull", eggs), Shade (cloak). Each have their benefits and neither one as a field support chamber is necessarily worse than the other. They each have their circumstances and can be effective with a knowledgeable team. But, here's the major issue that can make one of these chambers stronger/weaker than the other.
Back in the days of NS1 we had the Defense (Crag), Movement (Shift), and Sensory (Shade) Chambers that provided the same perk (for the most part*). The major difference between NS1 Chambers and the NS2 counterparts are the restrictions on placement.
NS2 structures must be placed upon infestation. This is contrary to the ways of NS1 where a Sensory Chamber, for example, could be placed in a strategic position within the map boundaries. This could lead to excellent cloak coverage to the point that is became difficult for marines to venture too far from base. The aliens would maintain a high level of map control, which would often follow a fast second hive (not just because their was a sense of urgency to get Celerity or Carapace, but the increase resource flow from the controlled Resource Towers). But, I don't believe that you can see good EARLY cloak coverage in NS2 because of the infestation restrictions.
So what's the point?
The game is heavily based on map control. Both the Crag and Shift are useful in maintaining alien presence on the field. This is not reliant on these chambers being at the fore-front of battle. They still provide a high level of support even when midway from the hive and the front lines. The Shade on the other hand is only effective where the battle is... in most cases, the front lines. Placing chambers in the front lines is more costly due to more cysts, combat attrition, and (usually) a wider area for coverage (ex. Crags in Computer Lab can support aliens from any of the three tech points it neighbors, whereas a Shade would have to be placed in each area to be supportive).
Considering the value of the chambers in addition to the upgrade choices makes it clear why Shade is hardly a viable first hive option, but rather one that is for goofing around with.
My opinion is that the game should continue in its direction to make all tech paths viable.
* Movement Chambers allowed the instantaneous traveling from the Chamber to the closest hive -OR- hive recently damaged. Sensory chambers allowed the aliens to see marines through walls within the chamber's area of effect.
IIRC, wasn't focus was they added to sensory in NS1 to make it a viable path again?
I also miss the claustrophobic ability of the matured shade to create hallucinations to nearby marines. (No, not those pink alines. I'm talking about random bite-sounds a scary "whoooo" and skulks appearing and disappearing in front of you.) The effect was really cool, but sadly got removed in beta for the hallucinations we have now. Because of the "sensoric-deprevation is bad in multiplayer games" crowd.
Why not introduce it again as an upgrade? It would give aliens a real combat advantage around shades, create another needed t-res sink for the com and it was really f****in scary.
Thinking more about it, you could have two ways of upgrading for every alien building:
Shade: Cloaks nearby buildings OR creates hallucinations for nearby marines.
Craig: Heals OR releases an babblerswarm to nearby marines.
Shift: Creates eggs OR regenerates alien energy.
Probably, there would be some differentiation in the building models needed. Maybe another color would be enough.
I think it might also of been because the shade seemingly began to do the opposite of what it was meant to. Instead of concealing the position of itself and other alien units, it clearly highlighted its presence.
Or when you walk over a rake and the other end flies up and hits you in the face.
Other abilities have been buffed there as well: Regeneration works in combat, Celerity stays active in combat too and increases the max speed by 1.5 m/s and Adrenaline does not only increase the energy pool but also the regeneration (both 10% per ability level).
While at first it seems like aliens got plenty of buffs in the balance mod and marines got some nerfs, marines also got some pretty strong buffs:
-Phase Gates can be built upon infestation.
-Only one Phase Gate needs to be powered for the entire network to be powered.
-Phase Gate HP and armor reduced.
-Flamethrowers disable alien structure abilities and destroy incoming Bile Bombs.
I really hope that most of those balance mod changes make it into the main game, since they seem to make stuff a lot more interesting and offer a new variety of strategies.
Which is too bad, I really want to play a full game with this mod and all the changes that Sewlek did.
Or just add focus to it. Anyone who played NS1 really misses focus. A focus/carapace skulk would be viable. Hell, even a celerity/focus skulk would work. Bam! Shade upgrade instantly viable.
Have they given a reason they don't want to include focus?
Made it terrible mechanically (game wise), but beautiful to look at. The fade out/in effect is extremely well done.
It can be made to work, but it's not very fun; might as well not use it.
So if you were running around at normal speed with camouflage, you would be something like 80% invisible, but the visual size of your skulk would be doubled or even tripled. This bigger area also wouldn't always need to be positioned around the center of a skulk.
It would create a pretty disorienting affect of having a rather large object flying around a room. You would be quite aware of its presence, and be able to react accordingly, but shooting it accurately and reliably would prove difficult.
You can currently test this out yourself with a lerk, if you slow enough while flying.
If you're the sort of person who doesn't have problems seeing that shader effect in the first place (me) then like others have said, you might as well not be Camouflaged at all. Its not as subtle as that hidden mod, and plenty of people excel at shooting that thing down consistently.
I say (once again) allowing close to full speed movement (which would enable sound and give that tradeoff from silence) with the new transparent camo is the way to do it. Its at least *better* this way..
The lerk can move around 25% of its maximum normal speed without decloaking. That is basically the same as the skulks camo-creeping speed, and would obviously impart no benefit over it. The problem is that the slow speed allows you to identify the distortion, and then shoot at the location where the distortion was, no tracking involved.
Fast moving targets require tracking. That is, you need to gauge their speed, facing and trajectory in order to predict their next position and shoot at that instead of where you currently see them. My theory is that the distortion affect would impact a marines ability to track a target.
You don't have to track it, one bullet and the cloaking goes away. I don't think that's too much to ask. A shotgun would make it trivial.
Apparently a bullet won't make celerity go away any more, so why should it camouflage?
Only in the balance mod, and there you have phantom: silence and current cloaking rolled into one. It's too early to say if this is OP yet, but it is damned fun to play. A couple of us played as fade with only this upgrade and it was awesome fun. A little hairy without carapace, but the movement more than makes up for that with the balance test fade
Camo wouldn't uncloak you at all. Upgrade camo and it is perma-on. You only get completely invisible when standing still, but can run at full speed with the distortion effect. This could really help to throw of marine aim a bit. (A bit, because it shouldn't become overpowered) Lets just try it plz.
It's all in how you use it. I played 12 games straight on aliens the other night and camo was an excellent tool to use but it needed to be tactfully done. Aliens shouldn't be able to run full speed at 100% inviso, that is just nonsense. Be more aware of your surroundings and you won't get killed. Worked for me and a few of my friends. We were extremely successful at not getting seen by marines and were able to take out many as well. I feel the camo is in a great spot right now.
Good changes all around. Combining camo with silence was a long thing coming if camo didn't say 100% invis. Now perhaps we can bring back focus and make shade hive a decent all around tech again.
Crag/Shade combo could be a high possibility.
I feel the same way. I don't even try to move closer marines using camo as my only way to stay hidden. Instead, I position myself so that marines run past/under me and there I am, right in their face without losing any hp, just like camo is intented to work. Great places to go, if you hear footsteps, is above a disabled power node or next to resource nozzle. Works like a charm.
All in all, I don't really know. Cloak is one of those upgrades I wouldn't put into the game in the first place unless I have a damn solid idea on how it blends in properly and positively contributes to the gameplay.
Cloak has become more of a finesse mechanic than before. It has a higher skill ceiling now, and is still a relatively new mechanic that should be explored. Surprised at the conclusive finality many forum goers have regarding this new mechanic.