Is it time to revisit the cyst mechanic?
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
While it's nice from a visual perspective, cysts have never seemed to work out right. We've had constant problems with them, as well as alterations.
-Cysts used to be able to be spammed, now they can't
-Cysts could be placed close together, now they can't
-Cysts can sometimes be impossible to place after one is destroyed in a chain
-Cysts can sometimes be impossible to place because of map design and minimum distance restrictions
-Cysts put a strain on performance
They've never really worked 'well'. Given the performance issues with cysts are something that are a concern, is it time we revisited cysts?
One thing I have always wanted to see was a way in which power nodes could be of importance to aliens as well as marines.
So one thought that I have pondered is what would it be like if we removed the current incarnation of cysts, and replaced it with a single large cyst on the power node? Here is how I envision it would work...
When aliens cyst a power node, the infestation would gradually take over the room and surrounding areas that the power node affects. Once that is done, the alien Khamm can then cyst a power node in an area adjacent to the area where his cyst controlled power nodes are.
The infestation spread would be balanced to be roughly what it would be to cover the room manually with cysts now. So the change in this regard would be neutral. (The infestation could even visually include the smaller cysts, but they would be visual ONLY and not able to be attacked - this is important for performance purposes.) Cost for the large cyst can be averaged to approximate what it would cost had smaller cysts been used, so cost is also neutral. The main difference is that the Khamm drops 1 instead of ~10.
Pros:
Alien commander has much easier time cysting.
No problems with cyst placement, they only go on power nodes.
No minimum distances or other restrictions.
One cyst covers the entire room and adjoining area.
Marines would be unable to break a cyst chain with ease.
Since any room with a power node would be covered, and since marines would need to kill power to build in the room, aliens would know if the power node cyst was attacked, and marines would not be able to build forward armories and such without removing the cyst. Issues with inability to easily do a phase gate ninja could be addressed separately.
Cons:
If cyst is destroyed the entire area loses infestation, greater risk to structures if not protected.
Power node needs to be unsocketed or destroyed. If power is active an alien or whip needs to kill the node first.
Large cyst costs more, which means small delay to purchase versus individual cyst purchases if low on res
Would not be able to cyst into rooms that have an active marine power node.
Frankly, if this was adopted, we might see more of a focus on territorial control. Power nodes would be far more important for BOTH sides, since marines would now need to pay more attention to the 'in between tech point' power nodes. I also think it would allow alien commanders to be more 'engaged' with the game, since they aren't spending every waking moment looking to drop cysts.
There may be considerations that I have overlooked, but I'd be interested in exploring a discussion about this.
-Cysts used to be able to be spammed, now they can't
-Cysts could be placed close together, now they can't
-Cysts can sometimes be impossible to place after one is destroyed in a chain
-Cysts can sometimes be impossible to place because of map design and minimum distance restrictions
-Cysts put a strain on performance
They've never really worked 'well'. Given the performance issues with cysts are something that are a concern, is it time we revisited cysts?
One thing I have always wanted to see was a way in which power nodes could be of importance to aliens as well as marines.
So one thought that I have pondered is what would it be like if we removed the current incarnation of cysts, and replaced it with a single large cyst on the power node? Here is how I envision it would work...
When aliens cyst a power node, the infestation would gradually take over the room and surrounding areas that the power node affects. Once that is done, the alien Khamm can then cyst a power node in an area adjacent to the area where his cyst controlled power nodes are.
The infestation spread would be balanced to be roughly what it would be to cover the room manually with cysts now. So the change in this regard would be neutral. (The infestation could even visually include the smaller cysts, but they would be visual ONLY and not able to be attacked - this is important for performance purposes.) Cost for the large cyst can be averaged to approximate what it would cost had smaller cysts been used, so cost is also neutral. The main difference is that the Khamm drops 1 instead of ~10.
Pros:
Alien commander has much easier time cysting.
No problems with cyst placement, they only go on power nodes.
No minimum distances or other restrictions.
One cyst covers the entire room and adjoining area.
Marines would be unable to break a cyst chain with ease.
Since any room with a power node would be covered, and since marines would need to kill power to build in the room, aliens would know if the power node cyst was attacked, and marines would not be able to build forward armories and such without removing the cyst. Issues with inability to easily do a phase gate ninja could be addressed separately.
Cons:
If cyst is destroyed the entire area loses infestation, greater risk to structures if not protected.
Power node needs to be unsocketed or destroyed. If power is active an alien or whip needs to kill the node first.
Large cyst costs more, which means small delay to purchase versus individual cyst purchases if low on res
Would not be able to cyst into rooms that have an active marine power node.
Frankly, if this was adopted, we might see more of a focus on territorial control. Power nodes would be far more important for BOTH sides, since marines would now need to pay more attention to the 'in between tech point' power nodes. I also think it would allow alien commanders to be more 'engaged' with the game, since they aren't spending every waking moment looking to drop cysts.
There may be considerations that I have overlooked, but I'd be interested in exploring a discussion about this.
Comments
Also, specifically in the start of the game, many khamms cyst directly to the nearest 2-3 RTs. If you had to wait until a room was completely infested before infesting the next one, that could severely slow down the alien expansion.
While I don't like the current implementation of the cyst mechanic (don't like the minimum range or ease of destroying a chain), I don't think that it really needs a massive revamp like this. One relatively easy thing (I believe) that could be done is to make the cysts have a much lower poly count, thus reducing the hit on performance and the need for the minimum range.
Since the alien start would already be FULLY infested, the Khamm would be able to drop power nodes in BOTH adjoining rooms. This is actually a small buff since most alien start rooms are only partially infested.
As for the time, we balance it. We time how long it would take a Khamm to cyst into a room, and then we use that time as a baseline to determine how long it takes that room to become infested. This needs to be a neutral change, it can NOT take longer - I fully agree with you here. Dropping cysts up to the nearby res nodes takes time. How long? Use that time to determine how long it will take for the area to become infested. In the end a Khamm should be able to drop their harvesters in the same amount of time give or take a second or two.
Actually there is more to it than just a simple graphical issue. It's the calculations needed to build the cyst power network, checking to see that each cyst is connected in a chain, monitoring the spread of infestation for EACH cyst and more. The graphics are the least of the worries if I am reading what they have said correctly.
I know it's a big change, I don't dispute that at all.
The reason I mention it is since it would make power nodes meaningful to the alien team, and it would simplify cyst placement and management. From a Khammander perspective I would welcome it.
For me I just like the idea of map control. It gives marines a reason to take and hold a power node. In some maps doing so could cut off the aliens from expanding, which then creates a conflict.
Alien comm almost never covers the whole room in infestation. He just creates cyst chain to the point of interest (usually a res node) or through the room and leaves everything else be. Additionally, you don't need for infestation to place cysts, so the speed in which alien commander can spread cysts is not limited by the infestation spread (which is honestly quite slow) but only by his res pool and cyst cooldown. Having to wait for infestation to fill the room before you can claim another one would massively and I mean MASSIVELY slow down the rate of alien expansion. It would also make hilariously easy to disturb and limit alien expansion and would give perfect awareness of alien location and expansion to every commander with at least two brain cells (place unbuilt power nodes all over the map! Hmm...I wonder why I cant place them in Locker room and bar....). It would also make placing forward bases horribly convoluted and ineffective.
In short, this idea would be hilariously over-the-top nerf to aliens that would make them almost completely unplayable.
You should make it: If you mod it, they will play.
Were you to give gorges the ability to place normal cysts, this might reopen the possibility of offensive cysting, and give old gorgies something to do. If the khaam and gorge to get organised that is.
The speed of expansion could prolly be tweaked to work out the same, so the rate alien expansion isn't necessarily going to be 'massively' effected.
You could also just not tell comms they can't place a powernode there. So when a comm tries it looks like it's worked, and they only find out there's a cyst there when the marines get there and have to kill the cyst to follow out the order.
Your problems could be worked out, they're more to do with how it's implemented than if it *could* work. 0:)
You can make cyst chain to two RTs in something like 10 seconds right now and drop the harvesters in another 2 if you put cyst next to RT. Assuming untweaked infestation spread, the same expansion would take close to a minute if you used the new system as written in OP. The problem is that tweaking infestation spread to achieve... the same not-so-crippling expansion speed would make spreading infestation lightning quick which would bring its own problems. But I agree that you could probably find an agreeable equilibrium between "expansion" speed and "infestation spread" speed.
However, even with such equilibrium, the speed would still have to be noticeably slower than simply cysting directly to RT and in the end, all you would achieve would turn a "MASSIVE nerf" into "nerf". And I don't really think alien expansion speed needs any nerfing.
Another additional argument against that can't be resolved by tweaking is that it would significantly simplify and limit one of the main roles of alien commander. And alien commander is the very last role in the entire game that needs even MORE simplification and more limited control.
In the end, I simply think that such change would bring more work and more trouble than its worth it.
I do like the idea of Aliens utilizing the Power Node in some way though. For example, someone suggested you could "cyst" the Power Node to leave the room permanently dark until the cyst was destroyed. Something along those lines, but this change seems more sweeping than you may think.
Any power node now limits how quickly and where a khamm can drop whips, chambers etc.
Marines can more easily attack the cyst from a distance...warehouse would be an issue based on power node location...which would recur a bit.
The way infestation works currently is far from perfect but was seen to be the simplest solution (as marines wouldn't know what to shoot without cysts).
I think the issues around cyst placement could be fixed if structures also served as an infestation source (though only say 3m radius) and allow them to be built off infestation (but to slowly die if their infestation does not join the chain).
You want the Achilles heel of the aliens its the upgrade chambers...take these puppies out and you hurt the aliens big time.
We'd need to do some tests to determine what would be neutral.
Take a random example. Alien hive is Flight Control on Summit. Normally infestation is only in immediate vicinity of the hive, and then the Khamm has to cyst out to Computer Lab and Crevice. So pick one, and time it. How many seconds would it take to cyst out to Crevice? How long to Computer Lab? Maybe 6 seconds? Or 10 seconds? We could even have the system measure the distance between the two power nodes, and use that distance to determine the speed of infestation spread.
I agree with you in that this change needs to be time neutral. If that means it will only take 5 seconds for the new cyst to infest the room controlled by the dropped cyst, then so be it. I don't think it would be too hard to test and find a means to make sure that it wouldn't delay expansion at all.
True, although to be fair they can attack any cyst from a distance now. As for nodes like warehouse, if it would be an issue for one team, it would be an issue for both. So if the warehouse power node is an issue, it could be moved like Terminal was in docking.
The 'pro' side is that it greatly simplifies cyst dropping, since one cyst will cover the ENTIRE area covered by that power node.
Another 'pro' is that there is no more cyst chain breaking by marines. So if marines are between two rooms they can't simply hack away a connection and shut down a huge chunk of the cyst network. They would have to attack and kill the master cyst, which would be much harder to do. (since it would have WAY more health) While the marines are trying to kill it, aliens are being told of the attack and are responding.
Yeah there is more risk if marines kill a node, but that's no different than if marines kill cysts now.
However, the performance improvement certainly would be a welcome change.
I think this could be tweaked enough to make sure that it doesn't delay alien expansion at all. (which I agree with you, that needs to be a constant)
It's a nice mechanic that keeps marines and aliens thinking.
Khamm cysting from a gorge tunnel exit (if the entrance is on infestation) is the only change I would like to see regarding the cystem.
Whilst cysts can be shot from a distance killing 1 cysts is rarely going to kill all infestation in a room (which does render whips as pretty much hat stands).
The infestation issue I see is a khamm can place one near a res node (for example) and build that quicker...but having it stem from power nodes means res nodes and power will need to be close (bad design for most maps).
I dont think the current model works...but I am not convinced simply replicating the power nodes works.
The current range distance between cysts could be increased if structures can be dropped off infestation and produce a small 2-3m (vertical and horizontal) radius out (which has to connect to the wider chain or the structure dies).
So if your res node does not have infestation on it you can still drop it...but if it cant connect to the chain with its small generated infestation patch it dies.
That way we could see more improvement as result of fewer cysts but avoid a lot of the issues this bigger gap creates.
Also could you place a cyst on an existing power node...if so does it destroy the node over time?
I like the intent (not a big fan of cyst mechanic) but I am struggling to see how it could be properly balanced (considering the issues with power node placement when only 1 side has to be able to defend them).
In the current system, when the game starts you have a hive with some nearby cysts. Those cysts do NOT occupy the entire hive room, and certainly don't occupy all of the areas that the power node covers.
In the proposed system, the entire hive room and ALL surrounding areas controlled by the hive room power node would be covered in infestation. The aliens would 'own' that area.
In the current system the Khamm has to cyst - one at a time - from somewhere near the hive to the area where the nearest extractor is. This will take time to do, especially in some hives with 'complex' geometry.
In the proposed system the Khamm would *immediately* be able to drop a cyst on a power node in the immediately adjoining area. There would now be a delay as the room became infested. This would *NOT* be a linear infestation from the power node outwards. Given that the cyst is on the power node, the infestation would be able to be generated across the entire zone simultaneously. (the idea being that it spreads through the power system) So there would be random patches of infestation that would spread at equal intervals to cover the entire area in the time it took for the power node cyst to 'mature'. As I noted, we balance this so that the time works out the same as it is now. So if a Khamm would have dropped his first harvester at the 10 second mark, then he should be able to do the same in the proposed system.
In the current system, cyst chains can be easily broken, from range. This can almost become whack-a-mole as the Khamm bounces around to repair it all.
In the proposed system the power node cyst would - once mature - have significantly more health than the current cysts. For balance we could give it the same health/armor as the marine power nodes. That would mean aliens would have lots of time to respond to a power node attack. If there is a marine power node in the socket, a skulk would have to kill it. However, all nodes would be unsocketed. So the only way marines would be able to socket the node was if they got in there to do it.
In the current system it is easy to drop a power node and forward armory almost anywhere. (phase gate too)
In the proposed system this would not be possible. For sake of balance there may need to be an adjustment to phase gates to compensate, but otherwise the marines would have to kill the power node cyst to build an armory, or anything else for that matter.
As for power nodes that are in 'bad spots', they should be re-evaluated on a case by case basis to see if they are indeed fairly placed. I don't believe that they should be attackable from far outside a room.
In the end, a change to this kind of cyst would take a load off for sake of performance. It would also simplify the alien game in an area where it has become pretty monotonous. Furthermore, there would never be any problems with cyst range and placement. Once you get the cyst in the power node socket you get full coverage in that zone. This leaves the Khamm more time to involve himself in the tactics of the alien team.
Even then the exposed nature of the nodes and trying to balance placement for the two very different sides would be hard.
What if the khamm had to drop a cyst on the power node (plugged or not..but in adjacent room) before they could then place a mega cyst (allowing for the room to become infested).
The cyst on the powernode needs to mature (5 -15 sec?) and attacks the node whilst doing it (alerting comm), once mature the mega cyst can be placed which starts spreading infestation and placement of other structures.
You need both the cyst and mega cyst to place structure but have to lose both for things to die.
If the cyst on the power is taken down then infestation stops spreading but does not recede until this mega cyst it taken out.
By having the symbiotic type relationship you can avoid aliens cysting into marine spawn without first alerting them to your intention.
It would be better to have aliens (skulks) kill the node first, since if the commander can just attack by putting a cyst on top, then marines would never be able to leave a room unattended. Power nodes should not be socketed unless it is marine spawn (or unless marines build there) so the alien team should have no problem with expansion, until they reach the side of the map the marines are on. Then they should have to attack.
Normally the game design doesn't have commander doing any attacking himself, he has his players attack for him.
Arcs are a comm attacking weapon...you could even say a whip near a power node is similar, but I dont believe the power cyst should kill the power node as its too easy to take down a marine base that way.
The maturation of the cyst is all that attacks the node (though does only a small amount of damage and does not destroy it).
That way you still need to take down that PG, armoury or other marine toys.
I just think that if a room has power the khamm should still be able to expand (but this should not go un-noticed by the comm...after all your tapping into his power grid).
If you can only place a cyst on a un-socketed or destroyed node a marine comm who goes and sockets the map is going to stop alien expansion.
The cyst would not cover the node and is visible as a parasite on a functioning node for marines to clear off before if matures (perhaps a color change to indicate mature).
Time is takes to cyst: This wouldnt be a nerf and it is totally tweakable. Who says the infestation cant be produced by the RT nossel as well as the power node as long as it is open. I think placing a RT down in a vacant spot should auto trigger the cyst on the unsocketed power node. This isnt an issue with the idea just general tweaking.
Also the critique about placement and marines having ranged weapons makes it easy to take down alien stuff... well that sounds like a mapper problem. More props and obstructions... How many times have power nodes been moved around or RTs for that matter. Again, not a problem with the idea, just map design issues.
Marine comm dropping the socket first: Remove the ability. Go back to dropping a structure causes the effect automatically. It is an unneeded ability. The ghost structure when destroyed refunds 100% of the res. Why would you need to socket a power node with a ghost socket by itself? No point.
The one issue i see is it kills Dynamic Infestation. I really couldnt care less about "pretties" when is impedes game play. If my infestation didnt grow on it's own randomly or such i wouldnt miss it.
What if you could build anywhere on the map(only to rooms where power node isnt built) as alien commander and when you do(drop harvester, crag, hive...) then the power node automatically gets cysted(and the infestation starts spreading from the node and from the structures you dropped. And make it so that to kill the cyst(for powering the room) you would need to kill every alien structure in the room. Cyst itself cannot be killed.
Or maybe better to make it so that you could build only harvesters and hives anywhere on the map but make other buildings require infestation first? prevents 30s shift next to marine base with eggs
Harvesters without infestation let aliens gain map res control too easily.
@RisingSun
Agree the idea can be worked on and made to fit better.
The issue with power node placement is that a safe place for aliens is not the same for marines.
The ranged and melee attack difference mean safe places are significantly different for each side.
This does not mean we can adapt the idea to work.
This was why I was suggesting 2 cysts with a small one (like current) that get placed on the power node, that matures over a short time (hacking into the power grid) and a mega cysts that can then be placed anywhere in that room once the power node cyst has matured.
Marine comm not being able to drop power nodes would significantly limit what can be done and is not needed if the aliens can cyst an existing node.
A cysted power node may take only 1-10 HP of damage over the time the cyst is tapping itself to the socket, this means that if marines have a socket in an area then they get a little warning of alien expansion (or perhaps just a pesky gorge with babblers).
I think this idea could work if its tweaked enough to ensure balance.
I was a little worried that savant came out with this idea and I liked it (I must be drunk or its not the real savant
The thing i like best is the fact that it makes power nodes of equal importance to both teams. If a cystnode is taken out the structures in the room become ineffective but remain in place as the infestation slowly recedes (just like how structures are depowered and are ineffective). Once off the infestation buildings take damage.
As far as damage from range... do bullets currently do less damage at range? You can add a simple buff to the cystnode to limit damage taken from range to that of what a lerk does (for balance). Just an idea.
The rate of infestation spread and recession do not have to be equal.
I do like his idea for the most part. It would be nice for gorges to be able to drop mini cysts as back up in rooms or forward building? You can limit the range of the infestation and the number of minicysts as required. Just another idea.
i also think a cystnode should permanently cause the lights to be off or flicker. The red emergency lights are just as effective as normal lighting. Emergency lighting can be for an uncysted but yet unbuilt power node.
I think too much rides on cysts for aliens. Cyst chain breaks, things die at the far end.
This makes it so you have to make cysts cheap so aliens can recover from cyst chain breaks ..otherwise easy wins for marines.
Since they are so cheap they can be spammed.
Since they can be spammed performance issue arise
So minimum distance is implemented
And pain in the ass map geometry comes into place to find that sweet spot in between twp previously connected cysts
Destroying cyst is less to cause a strategic blow for aliens, and more to cause a micromanagement headache for alien commander...which in a sadistic way has some merit, but overall cysts just feel underwhelming and annoying (like the powernode system on marine side).
Instead of making things die at the far end of a broken cysts, simply make things stop functioning. Cysts go into a brown hibernation, and their infestation slowly recedes. Any alien structures around them also stop functioning once off infestation, but THEY don't start taking damage. They also hibernate. Increase cyst cost and health...hell even make the model bigger. Increase their connection range. Coupled that with their increased cost, and you won't have to worry about spam issues.
Taking out a cyst like this would lead to meaningful strategic blows to aliens, but one that doesn't neuter aliens and they can still recover from. It replaces the numerous tiny weak cysts that trick newbies into wasting time killing them, with less numerous, tougher and bigger cysts that are clearly something you should take out.
All this though doesn't address the other problem with cysts ...and that is the infestation cysts make is so blah. Infestation is just the requirement for building placement...and the insipid passive regen. There is no strong incentives for alines to WANT to have infestation under their feet. Having a stronger incentive for it would make cysts by association a lot more fun to play with.
You could start power nodes in the broken after having been built state and then they would be buildable by either team.
I think the sniping of cyst nodes would be a problem that maps would have to be slightly altered for.
Let's do some pretend. Let's give the alien power cyst the same health and armor as the marine one.
2000 health and 1000 armor.
A marine LMG does normal damage, so that means the power point has 4000 effective health versus the LMG. A marine has 250 bullets that do 10 damage each at weapons 0. You could empty your gun and not kill it. Even weapons 3 would only do 3250 in damage if you used ALL 250 bullets in your LMG.
So what about the AXE? It does 25 structural damage, which is 50 versus the power cyst. Once you take ROF into account it is ~83 DPS. That means it will take 48 seconds to kill the cyst by hand.
Now this is a lot more than the time it takes a skulk to kill a power node, but marines should be working in pairs. So if you have 2 marines with weapons 3 LMGs firing on a power cyst, they will need 308 bullets to kill it. With a clip+reload at ~6 seconds, that means they need 3 full clips each, plus a few extra. That's a full 18 seconds for *TWO* marines to kill a cyst with LMGs. This assumes they are close enough not to miss a single bullet. At range they would need many more bullets.
If two skulks attack a power node they will kill it in 12 seconds.
That seems like a fair tradeoff. Marines could kill it quicker, but in a larger group of 3.
So I wouldn't worry about power cyst node sniping. That's not going to be an issue.
Edit: I should also note that I feel the 'power cyst' fits in with the feel of the game. We have harvesters sitting on resource nodes, where they feed off human 'resources' - so why not have them feed off the power node to siphon power?
Whilst you might argue that they are equivical to higher lifeforms...unlike higher lifeforms they can be recycled/shared after your death and slant the numbers.
Couple that with the placement issue of nodes and I dont see it flying in the proposed form...tweaking the idea is definately possible but consideration for the different strengths and weaknesses needs to be considered.
A marine can pick the skulk off the node with ease at range, a skulk wont have the same luxury and is seignificantly handicapped in responding as a result.
This is why I keep pushing the 2 cysts (1 on the node...and teh mega cyst anywhere in the room) as I see it as a way to compromise around placement of nodes.
Take the powernode cyst out and khamm cant drop new chambers and infestation does not spread in the room (though doesn't recede).
Take out the mega cyst and infestation dies as per normal rendering structures useless.
You say power cyst sniping wont be an issue but think of it this way...sentries had their power un-linked from the power node, you need to find a way to do the same for whips whilst still allowing marines a way to disable the whips.
Otherwise you simply shoot at the power node before walking into a room (knowing that this will render all whips/strucutres useless and they will die).
Also marines can Nano a powernode...which you have not factored in (and aliens cant do).
I think a lot of grief could be avoided if we look at things carefuly and dont think that the simple ideas is going to offer the solution to a game thats so in-depth.
I'd be reticent to go with more than one cyst in a room since you end up with the same issue as before - that the game now needs to track those cysts. With power nodes the code is already there, it would just need to be tweaked to apply to aliens as well. Well to be fair, whips are not alien sentries, that would be hydras - and hydras don't need infestation. Whips are more like ARCs. However, as I was saying before, if there are power nodes that are in bad spots - that allow sniping from outside the room - they should be moved no matter what. (The exception being an area like Departures on Docking, since that hive room is tiny. Although I never did like that tech point - too cramped.)
As for whips, I don't have a problem with whips not being affected by lack of infestation, so long as they aren't completely uncoupled from needing it. They will remain rooted (and functional) if infestation is lost. So whips still function and won't take damage if infestation is lost, but they can't move to into an area without infestation. So if infestation is lost whips are 'stuck' where they are.
Let's not forget it's easy for a lerk to snipe a power node from range, and the gorge bile bomb certainly fits that bill too. Not only skulks attack the power nodes.