On the other hand, you really want w3 when fades and oni arrive. Pg do not help you get that by default. They also restrict marines from moving to all the intermediate map points, which can help to reduce the numbers of skulks roaming freely around the map.
I fully understand the importance of phase tech, I'm just saying it's not THE only way. Getting w3/a2 early makes aliens' lives a total misery. If your marines can't shoot, then phase tech will only help them to fail to shoot I'm a different part of the map faster, hence my comments above.
Phase is good for larger maps and early locking of tech points. It delays upgrades, though, so there is a tradeoff. People underestimate the value of EARLY upgrades imo.
On the other hand, you really want w3 when fades and oni arrive. Pg do not help you get that by default.
But if you cannot afford W3 because you can't hold territory, what's the point? When Oni come and you're stuck in one tech point, W3 isn't really going to help you. Especially if you're facing aliens who have good gorge players. Two Onos keeping marines off of gorges going for the power won't be stopped by W3.
It's better to have W1 and A2 and a few Exos when the Fades and Onos come rather than everyone with rifles and W3.
They also restrict marines from moving to all the intermediate map points, which can help to reduce the numbers of skulks roaming freely around the map.
I fully understand the importance of phase tech, I'm just saying it's not THE only way. Getting w3/a2 early makes aliens' lives a total misery. If your marines can't shoot, then phase tech will only help them to fail to shoot I'm a different part of the map faster, hence my comments above.
In pub play where coordination and communication are sketch and marines who can reliably aim is even more questionable, it's honestly the only way. If your marines can't shoot, W3 isn't going to help them either. In an ideal world where Marines cooperate, pay attention to their maps and can aim, you're right, you don't need phase gates. But virtually every game this weekend I played where the Marine com rushed Phase gates ended in a victory. Every single Marine game where the Com took 10 minutes or more to get phase gates ended in the stomping of Onos and the corrosion of Bile.
Phase is good for larger maps and early locking of tech points. It delays upgrades, though, so there is a tradeoff. People underestimate the value of EARLY upgrades imo.
If you early rush shotguns yeah. Weapons upgrades to the rifle early game is kind of a waste as the damage increase against skulks is real immaterial. You're not going to have W3 within 5 minutes. And W1 and even W2 for the rifle is not going to change the game. If your team can aim, you rush shotguns and get W3 within 7 minutes? That's another story. But that ain't pub play. Marines that can aim won't have problems with small groups of skulks with no weapons upgrades.
AdambeanCardiff, South WalesJoin Date: 2005-06-03Member: 53038Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2013
Chucking in my two cents for what it's worth...
The rookie weekend... oh yes it took me a couple of games to know that a free weekend was happening. I did "wtf" in my mind at the commodious amount of green. Still, it was very nice to see so many fresh faces attempting to play a new game. Servers have been pretty full. I encouraged friends to also have a go at NS2 too, and got one of my friends to purchase the game.
The downside was that most games however resulted in not much happening at all. No structures getting built, and just an hour long game of both teams running into each others' first base to fight whilst most of the map was unexplored. There were even a couple of games where the alien commander spent all the starting resources on whips in the hive, only for the first resource tower to get destroyed leaving it impossible to get any more resources.
The primary cause appeared to be absolutely no communication. Most newcomers did not know how to team chat, and there were marginally more that knew how to send any text at all (or bothered to). Forget voice chat, this was very rare amongst newcomers.
No matter how much I tried to talk to my team, most messages appeared to be getting ignored -- text and voice. I was friendly too, trying to help and offer meaningful advice, not being a dick. It was also not possible to eject the sleeping newcomer commanders as nobody else seemed to listen to an instruction as to how, or probably because they didn't realise there was a problem.
There were just a handful of FPS savey players that did go in to their game options and found out how to use team text and voice chat, and to be fair, those that communicated did appear to listen to the advice from experienced players. It showed in the next round as they applied what we had been teaching, and did much better than the rookies that hadn't listened. There will likely be some sales from these people of which have had a pleasant introduction to NS2 due to the friendly attitude from experienced -- thanks all of you From what I saw there was next to no experienced players taking advantage just to destroy newcomers.
A step forward would be to show a small dialogue the first time a player clicks on Play. It literally needs to show 4 lines. (probably got the default keys wrong, but whatever, map them to the key bindings)
---- Communications --X-
How to talk to other players in game:
* Press T to text message everyone
* Press Y to text message your team only
* Hold V to voice chat with your team only
Check box "I understand" -> required to enable an OK button so the player can now join a server.
Also there could be an adjustment to the server filter. Rather than just "Filter rookie", rookie players should be able to show ONLY rookie friendly servers. Preferably on by default until rookie mode is disabled.
Once again thanks to the experienced players that made this weekend pleasant for the newcomers, it's been a good weekend and now I'm seeing a lot of servers are still full after the end of the free session.
Yeah, accessibility is an issue that we do want to address. My gut feeling is that a tutorial level, like CSGO's, is not sufficient, because NS2 is just more complex than CS (all the alien life forms, tech tree, etc. etc.). On the other hand, we don't have the resources to do a full-on SP campaign like Starcraft. I think a good compromise is something driven by bots, like an alternate game play mode that is co-op/SP vs. CPU.
Anyway, we can't promise anything, but it's definitely on our minds!
I liked the weekend. not at first, new people had some time (Thursday?) to sorta learn the game till the weekend. I got a high K:D ratio and I got to teach some people. I only wish that the next time UWE does a free weekend that there are UWE servers MEANT for newbs. good players can join and teach, but no pub stomping the new guys.
competitive Rt balance is aliens on 3 res and defending like nothing else, competitive balance is marine lmg aim is so good that 1 skulk killing one marine is remarkable. yeah, phase gates aren't necessary when your marines don't die and constantly advance the front lines. but in pubs phase gates are necessary to hold rts.
On the other hand, you really want w3 when fades and oni arrive. Pg do not help you get that by default.
But if you cannot afford W3 because you can't hold territory, what's the point? When Oni come and you're stuck in one tech point, W3 isn't really going to help you. Especially if you're facing aliens who have good gorge players. Two Onos keeping marines off of gorges going for the power won't be stopped by W3.
It's better to have W1 and A2 and a few Exos when the Fades and Onos come rather than everyone with rifles and W3.
They also restrict marines from moving to all the intermediate map points, which can help to reduce the numbers of skulks roaming freely around the map.
I fully understand the importance of phase tech, I'm just saying it's not THE only way. Getting w3/a2 early makes aliens' lives a total misery. If your marines can't shoot, then phase tech will only help them to fail to shoot I'm a different part of the map faster, hence my comments above.
In pub play where coordination and communication are sketch and marines who can reliably aim is even more questionable, it's honestly the only way. If your marines can't shoot, W3 isn't going to help them either. In an ideal world where Marines cooperate, pay attention to their maps and can aim, you're right, you don't need phase gates. But virtually every game this weekend I played where the Marine com rushed Phase gates ended in a victory. Every single Marine game where the Com took 10 minutes or more to get phase gates ended in the stomping of Onos and the corrosion of Bile.
Phase is good for larger maps and early locking of tech points. It delays upgrades, though, so there is a tradeoff. People underestimate the value of EARLY upgrades imo.
If you early rush shotguns yeah. Weapons upgrades to the rifle early game is kind of a waste as the damage increase against skulks is real immaterial. You're not going to have W3 within 5 minutes. And W1 and even W2 for the rifle is not going to change the game. If your team can aim, you rush shotguns and get W3 within 7 minutes? That's another story. But that ain't pub play. Marines that can aim won't have problems with small groups of skulks with no weapons upgrades.
You're misunderstanding the purpose of early upgrades. Map control and resources are the key. Killing skulks to achieve this is only part of the story.
Weapons upgrades reduce ttk against harvesters. It doesn't matter whether you're playing with pubs, pugs, or comps, if you're not taking down harvesters, you're going to lose.
Early mines help protect existing harvesters, while the comm needs to be prepared to jump out of the chair to defend base from lone wolves.
While you might currently think phase is the only way for pubs, I can tell you that with even teams on pub servers this weekend with rookies, and previously with mostly randoms plus 3 guys I know split over both teams (we compared notes afterwards), early upgrades ARE a viable strat, especially on maps like tram, even veil (where locking down 2 tech points with phase is usually my aim).
By putting pressure dynamically on the alien expansion, you consolidate your own expansion and get all upgrades faster.
Phase gates do not give the same degree of flexibility, and as the tech is expensive and takes time to build anyway, your very early game is not changed, marines still need to run back if they die. With early a1, then up to w3, they are more viable in the field much earlier than skulks generally get upgrades on pubs. This early edge is what I have found makes up for the delay in phase gates. There is no way you should be facing bile and oni without both phase gates and a good level of upgrades so that point is irrelevant.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with the usefulness of early phase in pub servers, but if pub players in general opened their minds, they would also be able to pull off alternative strats with equivalent degrees of success. I have done it successfully a lot lately, where it works, people are usually surprised. It's no longer a surprise to me, and I hope more people will try it out with an open mind!
Honestly, phase first is NOT the only way, even on pubs. There are viable alternatives.
Just to throw a spanner into your works - I comm'ed after my 3rd game, I comm'ed for 4 games in a row on 2 on each team, and won 3 out of those 4. The difference is I take a very proactive approach to learning new games, and already had a very good idea of how comm'ing worked. I made a lot of rookie comm mistakes (mostly building placement tactics choices) and got lucky I suppose.
My main point is that not all rookies are as green as others.
Free weekenders SHOULD NOT BE GETTING IN THE COMM CHAIR. At least on a highly populated server.
I took at least a month of learning NS1 and what each piece of equipment does before I jumped in the chair, and not before i jumped in a comm chair on a bot server.
The problem is, with the new commander requirements to start a game, you cannot join a random server and go comm and build up alone or with 1 other person like you used to be able too!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@rippsy: you can start your own server and do this, you can have friends join your explore mode game, and you can always have yourself and a friend jump in commander to start then exit asap.
@ironhorse: valid points; Would be nice to start off in explore mode in a version with NO base, and have goals like "build this item here, because it is easilly defended" "upgrade to shift hive and place a shift in this location on the map" etc
You could do the same for Marines by having mac's named "Dave and Fred" who will follow your trusty orders! Making it clear they are just build units to replace players in game
AdambeanCardiff, South WalesJoin Date: 2005-06-03Member: 53038Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
^ I too would like an explore mode starting with nothing, though that does sound like making a passworded listen server? (only the explore mode would give you the extra tips)
Yeah too many games were plagued by incessant inept commanders. Which could have easily been remedied had they made noob boot camp trial games with bots mandatory before hopping into the drivers seat
Comments
I fully understand the importance of phase tech, I'm just saying it's not THE only way. Getting w3/a2 early makes aliens' lives a total misery. If your marines can't shoot, then phase tech will only help them to fail to shoot I'm a different part of the map faster, hence my comments above.
Phase is good for larger maps and early locking of tech points. It delays upgrades, though, so there is a tradeoff. People underestimate the value of EARLY upgrades imo.
But if you cannot afford W3 because you can't hold territory, what's the point? When Oni come and you're stuck in one tech point, W3 isn't really going to help you. Especially if you're facing aliens who have good gorge players. Two Onos keeping marines off of gorges going for the power won't be stopped by W3.
It's better to have W1 and A2 and a few Exos when the Fades and Onos come rather than everyone with rifles and W3.
In pub play where coordination and communication are sketch and marines who can reliably aim is even more questionable, it's honestly the only way. If your marines can't shoot, W3 isn't going to help them either. In an ideal world where Marines cooperate, pay attention to their maps and can aim, you're right, you don't need phase gates. But virtually every game this weekend I played where the Marine com rushed Phase gates ended in a victory. Every single Marine game where the Com took 10 minutes or more to get phase gates ended in the stomping of Onos and the corrosion of Bile.
If you early rush shotguns yeah. Weapons upgrades to the rifle early game is kind of a waste as the damage increase against skulks is real immaterial. You're not going to have W3 within 5 minutes. And W1 and even W2 for the rifle is not going to change the game. If your team can aim, you rush shotguns and get W3 within 7 minutes? That's another story. But that ain't pub play. Marines that can aim won't have problems with small groups of skulks with no weapons upgrades.
The rookie weekend... oh yes it took me a couple of games to know that a free weekend was happening. I did "wtf" in my mind at the commodious amount of green. Still, it was very nice to see so many fresh faces attempting to play a new game. Servers have been pretty full. I encouraged friends to also have a go at NS2 too, and got one of my friends to purchase the game.
The downside was that most games however resulted in not much happening at all. No structures getting built, and just an hour long game of both teams running into each others' first base to fight whilst most of the map was unexplored. There were even a couple of games where the alien commander spent all the starting resources on whips in the hive, only for the first resource tower to get destroyed leaving it impossible to get any more resources.
The primary cause appeared to be absolutely no communication. Most newcomers did not know how to team chat, and there were marginally more that knew how to send any text at all (or bothered to). Forget voice chat, this was very rare amongst newcomers.
No matter how much I tried to talk to my team, most messages appeared to be getting ignored -- text and voice. I was friendly too, trying to help and offer meaningful advice, not being a dick. It was also not possible to eject the sleeping newcomer commanders as nobody else seemed to listen to an instruction as to how, or probably because they didn't realise there was a problem.
There were just a handful of FPS savey players that did go in to their game options and found out how to use team text and voice chat, and to be fair, those that communicated did appear to listen to the advice from experienced players. It showed in the next round as they applied what we had been teaching, and did much better than the rookies that hadn't listened. There will likely be some sales from these people of which have had a pleasant introduction to NS2 due to the friendly attitude from experienced -- thanks all of you
A step forward would be to show a small dialogue the first time a player clicks on Play. It literally needs to show 4 lines. (probably got the default keys wrong, but whatever, map them to the key bindings)
---- Communications --X-
How to talk to other players in game:
* Press T to text message everyone
* Press Y to text message your team only
* Hold V to voice chat with your team only
Check box "I understand" -> required to enable an OK button so the player can now join a server.
Also there could be an adjustment to the server filter. Rather than just "Filter rookie", rookie players should be able to show ONLY rookie friendly servers. Preferably on by default until rookie mode is disabled.
Once again thanks to the experienced players that made this weekend pleasant for the newcomers, it's been a good weekend and now I'm seeing a lot of servers are still full after the end of the free session.
Like what dota does
You're misunderstanding the purpose of early upgrades. Map control and resources are the key. Killing skulks to achieve this is only part of the story.
Weapons upgrades reduce ttk against harvesters. It doesn't matter whether you're playing with pubs, pugs, or comps, if you're not taking down harvesters, you're going to lose.
Early mines help protect existing harvesters, while the comm needs to be prepared to jump out of the chair to defend base from lone wolves.
While you might currently think phase is the only way for pubs, I can tell you that with even teams on pub servers this weekend with rookies, and previously with mostly randoms plus 3 guys I know split over both teams (we compared notes afterwards), early upgrades ARE a viable strat, especially on maps like tram, even veil (where locking down 2 tech points with phase is usually my aim).
By putting pressure dynamically on the alien expansion, you consolidate your own expansion and get all upgrades faster.
Phase gates do not give the same degree of flexibility, and as the tech is expensive and takes time to build anyway, your very early game is not changed, marines still need to run back if they die. With early a1, then up to w3, they are more viable in the field much earlier than skulks generally get upgrades on pubs. This early edge is what I have found makes up for the delay in phase gates. There is no way you should be facing bile and oni without both phase gates and a good level of upgrades so that point is irrelevant.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with the usefulness of early phase in pub servers, but if pub players in general opened their minds, they would also be able to pull off alternative strats with equivalent degrees of success. I have done it successfully a lot lately, where it works, people are usually surprised. It's no longer a surprise to me, and I hope more people will try it out with an open mind!
Honestly, phase first is NOT the only way, even on pubs. There are viable alternatives.
My main point is that not all rookies are as green as others.
The problem is, with the new commander requirements to start a game, you cannot join a random server and go comm and build up alone or with 1 other person like you used to be able too!
Tldr: those options still exist
You could do the same for Marines by having mac's named "Dave and Fred" who will follow your trusty orders! Making it clear they are just build units to replace players in game