Do Gorge Tunnels cost too much to research?
Samus1111111
Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I've heard this argument time and time again while in game. And tbh, I am beginning to agree with it.
Gorge Tunnels costing 30 tres is way too much for an upgrade at that level. It is the most expensive (I believe, can't remember the 3 hive upgrade costs) upgrade and it's the only upgrade available at 1 hive. Why should a 1 hive upgrade cost more than the 2-3 hive upgrades?
I think that due to their high research cost they aren't used very much at all. I've seen maybe 5 games where they were upgraded before 3 hive and only 1 of those actually used a strategy with GTs.
I would like to see (at least in the beta tests) GT cost dropped to 20 to see if that has an effect on their usage. I believe it will, but can't be sure without testing.
Your thoughts?
Gorge Tunnels costing 30 tres is way too much for an upgrade at that level. It is the most expensive (I believe, can't remember the 3 hive upgrade costs) upgrade and it's the only upgrade available at 1 hive. Why should a 1 hive upgrade cost more than the 2-3 hive upgrades?
I think that due to their high research cost they aren't used very much at all. I've seen maybe 5 games where they were upgraded before 3 hive and only 1 of those actually used a strategy with GTs.
I would like to see (at least in the beta tests) GT cost dropped to 20 to see if that has an effect on their usage. I believe it will, but can't be sure without testing.
Your thoughts?
Comments
So apparently are the devs (or at least one) considering a price reduction already.
Uhhh, shifting eggs at a non hive location can be really really useful, why don't you just learn the maps or press C.
Here is why:
1)Aliens are MUCH more mobile than marines to begin with(expecialy once they get celerity).So they dont needs GT nearly as much.
2)PGs take like 0.2 seconds to use.GT takes about 0.5 seconds to get in,about 2 seconds to travel inside the tunnel and an additional 0.5 secs to get out(not to mention you get out blindly,as a marine you can come back in the PG and retreat most of the time,as alien you are gonna get shot way before you get in the GT)
3)marines can follow you in GT(which is cool to be honest)
4)GT cost pres which is the biggest flaw.It should have been a commander option.Rearly you see someone willing to spend atleast 30pres on GT(10 for gorge+2x 10 for GT)expecialy if it's not nearly as effective or needed as PG for marines.
I am not saying GT should be a must have for aliens the way PG is for marines,but i think it sure could use some buffs.
If say getting gorge tunnels increases your chances of securing a second by X% why not invest 50-60 res (10res for gorge).
At what value does X% have to be for you to invest 50res?
Let's say it's 10% and we feel that's far too low and it's not worth it. Well I've watched a few casts (Build 243) and marines have been dominating.
Unbuilt hive kills could have easily been gorge tunnels. Games that have aliens trapped on 1 hive easily accumulate 70+,100+ t.res. Why not invest in gorge tunnels?
However by the time they realize they are trapped it's far too late to use gorge tunnels. I want to see more teams copy Archea
The p.res cost would stay at 10 res per entrance. It's about reducing research costs, and thus a reduction in t.res. When you'd make it a bit cheaper, it would more often be researched in an earlier stage of the game, so there would more often be gorges to spend that 20 p.res total in setting a tunnel up. So reducing the research costs would actually increase the potency of the tunnel res sink.
What I also really would like to see is the ability for two gorges to put up one entrance each and create a tunnel that way. It would make it a lot easier to quickly get a tunnel up in cases of emergency for instance.
That, with a reduction in research costs, and maybe even a slight speed boost for aliens inside the tunnel, would definitely make it a lot more useful.
I like this idea.
They also increase the hydra cap by 1 for each additional Hive.
Maybe another 2 clogs for each additional Hive too.
And an additional Babbler Egg cap for each Hive? Maybe.
It would give a reason to drop 4th Hive. And would make Additional Hives more significant for aliens.
There are already reasons:
-Map control
-Denying a marine base in that location
-Unkillable infestation around the Hive
-Free regeneration.
-More eggs at an additional spawn location.
-Another Drifter spawn.
And in the Balance mod does the 4th Hive add to the Biomass pool, so you can increase the lifeform HP even more.
Gorge tunnels are annoying to use also, u need to press use button like 20 times to get in etc. Why couldnt they just make hives act like teleports like in NS1? 20 res uprgade so if u use "use" button on hive u teleport next to other hive. In NS1 it wasnt even uprgade it was free standard mechanic between hives.
Well I was primarily referring to the balance mod changelog somebody mentioned, where they also go down in p.res. But yea, I don't see any harm in lowering the t.res cost.
- gorge tunnel entrances create now infestation when the other side is infested
- reduced gorge tunnel cost to 5 (was 10)
- reduced gorge tunnel build time to 10 (was 15)
Although i think the initial research cost for the commander is the issue more than the Pres cost.... (being that it contends with leap, BB, blink etc)
I just stand on the tunnel and it takes me in? (mmm) I never press anything.
Again, Sewlek is doing some great work on that mod, but it is just that, a mod. Some people are making it out as more than that, and it's a bit disingenuous to say the least. In any case, the chance of anything from that mod making it into the game is the same as anything else making it into the game. Charlie makes those decisions based on his own vision.
You are quite obsessed with that, aren't you? You bring Charlie up whenever any discussion about new features that improve the game arise.
Sure, Charlie has the last say in it, but I haven't seen any real statement of himself about what is current vision is and what we may expect in the future.
For all what we know, I rather take the word of someone who gets new features implemented for testing and says at least for some of them that they will pretty sure make it into the vanilla game (like the population cap in some form) than making some guesses based on an old game design document.
And stuff from the Balance Test like the MAC's "Follow & Weld" command has been implemented in the vanilla game already, so I am confident that more stuff will follow. It would seem pretty odd to me to ignore changes that solve some issues in the game when they are just in front of your nose. At least in my eyes has the Balance mod A LOT fixes for things I have some gripes with in vanilla NS2.
Sewlek's mod is a great way for him to play around with the game and test things that would never make it into the game. As I said, I love seeing mods like this since they make people think about other possibilities. Yet some people don't see this as a mod, they think it's a beta and the whole thing is only a few tweaks away from becoming part of the game. That's just not how it works.
Little things may make it into the vanilla game, and that's great if they fit. Voogru did the same in NS1. I just think people are under the mistaken belief that Sewlek is the only developer working on game code and that this mod represents the future of NS2.
Anyway, there is no need to bicker on this. I'll only respond to future responses in PMs since I don't like having a conversation about someone else when they aren't here.
That seems very surprising to me. Andreas' job with UWE is game programming. He's spending a lot of time on this mod; surely he's getting paid for it. I doubt UWE would be putting money into the mod if they weren't looking at it as a testing ground for ideas to add to the game.
That doesn't mean that anything in the mod will ever make it into the game, but I have to think it's much more likely than any other idea from any other person in any other mod.
Edit: Savant has a good point. This is starting to get off topic. I'm taking my part of this discussion elsewhere.
Well no and yes.
"No" in the sense that he himself said several times that the ideas in the mod are considered as future balance tweaks, or that a certain feature WILL be added into main game in some form. So unless you are willing to call Sewlek himself a liar or otherwise misinformed, you will have to accept that it isn't "just a mod".
"Yes" in the sense that it serves mainly as hotbed of ideas with various viability and it is pretty clear that anywhere between 75% to 90% of them will never get to main game and people need to realize that.
Charlie and the team consider *everything*. I've had a couple ideas integrated into the game, and I'm not a dev. People think that no devs read the ideas and suggestions forum, but they do. The devs will consider ideas from *any* mod that is out there if the idea fits in with their vision of the game. My point was that there is only **ONE** 'official' balance mod, and that is this mod here.
I'm going to leave it at that, since this is off topic and not relevant. I made my point, people are completely free to disagree if they like.
The Pres cost made them hard to afford as you had to sacrifice 30 res (10 for gorge, 20 for both entrance and exit).
5 per end is still not exactly cheap...after all your trading off/significantly delaying advanced lifeforms for yourself.
The research cost is too high and results in them being researched mid-late game, you rarely seen them early game...their pres cost contributes to this as you need to collect 10 p-res before you could build them anyway.
Having it cost the same as marine side is not the way to go, there is so many things different in the t and p res economies that claiming symmetry on cost is misdirected.
Marines dont have the cyst drain, they can recycle both structures and weapons.
The research cost needs to come down, the p-res cost of 20 is significant for an alien side (gorge + both sides) and has a big impact.
Drop the research costs on top of whats in the balance mod already and we will see them more often.
There is no reason to "use" the tunnel, it sucks you in if you stand on it for 1-2 seconds.
I have yet to see anyone respond to 1 hive trap with well beyond 70-100 res. By the time a trap is realized it is far too late to research and utilize gorge tunnels. It may have very well been different if 30 res was spent on gorge tunnels before any 1 hive surround.
The only reason I can see for the 30 t-res cost would be to prevent gorge tunnel rushes, but even that could be tweaked by dropping the cost and increasing the research time a bit.
Right now gorge tunnels are under-utilized, and that is largely because of the research cost.
Largely but not totally, the cost of the entrances when coupled with the cost of a gorge means your looking at a 30 res outlay.
Which is a heck of a lot when you consider that has increased the time to get a fade by double and an onos by ~50%.
Comparing a T and P res cost is silly as the economy of the aliens is not as flexible as marines (who can recycle structures and most P-res purchases).
I dont really see how rushing gorge tunnels would be an issue or turn the tide of a game...after all they are a double edged sword and those marines your attacking could simply come back through the tunnel.